Took me three years to get the epic gear I needed, as I did freaking boss runs all the time. But I do agree epics are sometimes too easy and convenient to come by. Which has various reasons. I personally, would not mind the immunities remaining if they actually were rarer and not most people having them. Because of gearing and immunities there sometimes is an approach: "Let's pvp because I've got all I need." Also, something which translated to DC gear for asking something that is just a "bit" more powerful than your normal epic gear. Because it is the way to stand out.
If we take ideal conditions, I would never start a fight with a mage that is at distance. Ideal condition for a melee is to be close and do it quick when mage is unprerpared. Time and place for everything. If you know your going to lose, then just back up and regroup later... If you know your character will go in regardless of OOC or IC lose, then do it. At least it is the character doing it.
Thirdly, this topic.. As I read it, was more of an announcement of coming changes which will take place. Glad to see immunities starting to go down and giving us more interesting build choices for RP aspect and still having valid PvE and PvP build if that is your cup of tea.
I trust the DM team and Dev team knowing how to balance the game for us.
I don't think you fully understand how powerful mages were even before MR items were nuked, Commie, and everyone else arguing for the MR removal.
I can because I never had any MR equipment and I ate those igms and asked for seconds. Heal pots. Spec into heal. It's just damage, the shittiest way to kill someone.
Took me three years to get the epic gear I needed, as I did freaking boss runs all the time. But I do agree epics are sometimes too easy and convenient to come by. Which has various reasons. I personally, would not mind the immunities remaining if they actually were rarer and not most people having them. Because of gearing and immunities there sometimes is an approach: "Let's pvp because I've got all I need." Also, something which translated to DC gear for asking something that is just a "bit" more powerful than your normal epic gear. Because it is the way to stand out.
If we take ideal conditions, I would never start a fight with a mage that is at distance. Ideal condition for a melee is to be close and do it quick when mage is unprerpared. Time and place for everything. If you know your going to lose, then just back up and regroup later... If you know your character will go in regardless of OOC or IC lose, then do it. At least it is the character doing it.
Thirdly, this topic.. As I read it, was more of an announcement of coming changes which will take place. Glad to see immunities starting to go down and giving us more interesting build choices for RP aspect and still having valid PvE and PvP build if that is your cup of tea.
I trust the DM team and Dev team knowing how to balance the game for us.
Lots of times wizards have buffs that dont last longer then thirty minutes. Just roll on them, or if you see them already buffed, stall them with conversation until buffs end then flag and draw swords. Remember re-buffing in a hostile situation is cause for pvp right then.
So dont let them buff. A dependence on epic mage armor means unbuffed wizards are likely in the thirty ac range. Kill them then.
I can because I never had any MR equipment and I ate those igms and asked for seconds. Heal pots. Spec into heal. It's just damage, the shittiest way to kill someone.
There's really no polite way to put it aside from saying that you're wrong. As I said in my previous post, I can prove it in game. Forum back and forth doesn't really do the trick, it seems.
I can because I never had any MR equipment and I ate those igms and asked for seconds. Heal pots. Spec into heal. It's just damage, the shittiest way to kill someone.
There's really no polite way to put it aside from saying that you're wrong. As I said in my previous post, I can prove it in game. Forum back and forth doesn't really do the trick, it seems.
I'm a really bad person to test it on as I rock cl29 Sr and most of my buffs arnt on the breach list and I sit around 850hp. I've fought a lot of wizards and they die because once I tank through the ruin and igms damage they have nothing else to do. Heal pots are really effective when your hp pool is high.
I really see no reason to fight to prove what I already know.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
I have been involved in a situation where two casters took down a group of 15-20 people with the smart use of spells (Which is what you're supposed to do as a mage) including IGMS which owned, even despite the use of AD armour.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
It was in the forest and there were traps everywhere. So it was actually clever use of the environment as well as the clever use of spells that got them victory.
Taking out a large group of people as a caster isn't trivial, regardless the experience of both sides.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
I have been involved in a situation where two casters took down a group of 15-20 people with the smart use of spells (Which is what you're supposed to do as a mage) including IGMS which owned, even despite the use of AD armour.
I also watched several epiced out war Knights lose duels fought on their terms to a non thirty guy in plus three and plus four gear.
So you have to take relative player skill into account.
I wouldn't be so quick to separate me from the herd, Commie!
Despite how it might have sounded, my characters have never been 'old money', so to speak. Most of my characters have very few if any epic gear on them. I've never been a successful loot farmer, and I do in fact understand that for many people, they don't have Arcane Defiance equipment. I've played a mage, I've played the target of mages. I've an excellent grasp of gear, of PvP, of PvE. I reject the notion that my experience is insufficient. At the end of the day, Commie, this change was made because the balance gurus believed that whatever 5/- Magic resistance items were on whatever percentage of the playerbase they were, it was too much.
The whole premise is that it was originally too powerful. Too high of a reward, even for an epic item. And supplementary points have been made that too many people have too many epic items, that high magic equipment has saturated the playerbase so much that mages were performing poorly. I was accepting this premise in how I worded my concerns, and that doesn't make me out of tune.
Still, this is an announcement-- and what discussion is present is more than likely intended just to figure out how to make the change work smoothly, rather than to debate its merits.
(As for the mages in the example-- I think they were also SD's, if I remember. Which drastically enhances their kiting potential. I didn't want to reference that, because that capability comes mostly from being SD-- but there are plenty of ways for non-SD mages to keep mobile, still!)
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Commie wrote:
Richard_Edmund wrote:
I have been involved in a situation where two casters took down a group of 15-20 people with the smart use of spells (Which is what you're supposed to do as a mage) including IGMS which owned, even despite the use of AD armour.
I also watched several epiced out war Knights lose duels fought on their terms to a non thirty guy in plus three and plus four gear.
So you have to take relative player skill into account.
I was the only WK there.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
I have been involved in a situation where two casters took down a group of 15-20 people with the smart use of spells (Which is what you're supposed to do as a mage) including IGMS which owned, even despite the use of AD armour.
I also watched several epiced out war Knights lose duels fought on their terms to a non thirty guy in plus three and plus four gear.
So you have to take relative player skill into account.
Also sorc shadow dancer is a super murderous on purpose build and some of yall should give it a shot as its a blast.
Still not as good as a DEXer or properly geared shifter.
... You really think so? I can't tell if trolling or not.
It is a good build. It adds extreme mobility to one if the highest damage builds in the game. Epic dodge is absurd and its expected to have sixty plus ac in addition to it, and shifters can just become outright immune to most of the game on command (sneak attacks, elemental damage, crits, damage types, etc).
You want me to make an amia tier list with power on the y axis and ease to play on the x?
Rp based builds more fun, which I use to refer to builds that do not aim to maximise full mechanical potential, because you need to really figure out ways to deal with issues instead of doing it yourself or hack & slash -style. Hoping this change moves us towards that direction.
By the way Commie, I was playing a wizard and I experienced the waiting my buffs go out scenes.. Maybe once, when I was not prepared I would back out, because I would most likely die. Secondly, I would die anyway because I suck at PvP. Hence, I do RP to find ways around the issues that come up and require mechanical might.. Networking with correct characters that actually can handle it. More interesting this way, for me at least. Aaaand, hoping this change move us to that direction.. As someone mentioned earlier, actually getting together instead of trying soloing.
I mean, I'd grant the properly geared shifter to be an equal foe. Tazul (Maximum Geared Shifter) and Di'rien (Non-SD Sorcerer) dueled quite often, and we would have a comfortable 50% win-loss each. It all came down to Greater Ruin timing, essentially. I can spell out how, if you'd like-- just as informative stuffs.
I don't think I need the graph though, haha. You and I would probably disagree on its slots!
Rp based builds more fun, which I use to refer to builds that do not aim to maximise full mechanical potential, because you need to really figure out ways to deal with issues instead of doing it yourself or hack & slash -style. Hoping this change moves us towards that direction.
By the way Commie, I was playing a wizard and I experienced the waiting my buffs go out scenes.. Maybe once, when I was not prepared I would back out, because I would most likely die. Secondly, I would die anyway because I suck at PvP. Hence, I do RP to find ways around the issues that come up and require mechanical might.. Networking with correct characters that actually can handle it. More interesting this way, for me at least. Aaaand, hoping this change move us to that direction.. As someone mentioned earlier, actually getting together instead of trying soloing.
I agree 100% and wish pvp came down to something other then who rolled the best build and then the high numbers.
Depends really. You have option to choose to take PvP action or not. Hence, you create the kind of conflict you choose. Conflict can also be RP conflict, like it was with my main I chose to avoid PvP, for both not being good at it and because it was not my characters way to deal with issues.
This change is a great thing overall for everyone, even if they are unaware of it.
This x a Thousand!!! I suck at builds anyways LOL! Sometimes you just have to have faith, i trust Dm's are doing whats best with the changes they are making for Amia. If you don't like it suck it up buttercup!
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
As with most balance changes, I can't truly be at ease with them until I see the "answer" to the other side of the equation. But at a glance:
Quote:
- Server wide exchange of Imp Evasion on IE Rings for Evasion, -2 reflex
Fine. Evasion is still plenty powerful and instant half-off all damage-based reflex spells was too nice anyway. Don't much see the point of the -2 reflex, seems arbitrary.
Quote:
- Server wide removal of 5/- Divine DR on items, and removal of the quest granting it.
No real point in this, but I know the enmity behinds the scenes for that quest. The 5/- doesn't do squat mechanically. It was the major reason, I thought, we had it as an add-to-anything property; doesn't matter what you add it to, you've not really done anything. Divine Might bypasses it. In the absence of the Phane, that leaves divine traps, Divine Hammer, and DC weapons with divine damage as the only thing it was useful for. Fine, but I really just see it as trying to erase the quest more than anything. The fact that we're pulling out the "no grandfathering" clause at all tells me it's either that or more is planning to be done with Divine damage(which I doubt, because it's not like we have time to script that stuff now).
Quote:
- Server wide exchange of 5/- Magic DR on items for 1/day lesser spell mantle.
Don't see the point in providing a spell casting of Lesser Mantle, it is leagues below 5/-. And if we're removing magical resistance I would honestly, honestly consider the Magic Missile/Missile Storm series gaining some sort of ranged touch roll component. Really. In the same stroke we make reflex-damage spells once again viable for PvP, we go ahead a restore Max IGMS back to its throne? No. Thank. You. Maybe we've had magical 5/- around for so long we've forgotten how much of a killer it is, but if there is no answer to the other side of this equation, we are doing ourselves more harm than good.
Quote:
- Server wide exchange of 100% elemental immunity rings with 50% elemental immunity rings.
Cool, on the level that one item doesn't make you immune to everything of one element. But it should be noted that, unless there is something seriously fucked with my testing module, elemental immunity from items stacks. Two rings will still do the job of one. Which maybe is the point? If you really want to be immune to an element, at least you're dedicating two slots to it rather than one. Most of the time, you could just slap on a Cold and Acid immunity ring and call yourself ready for most PvP. Either way, if we're cutting back on immunities I think this would be a good time to look at other things which made them somewhat necessary:
-Mestil's Acid Sheathe:reduce that damage, add some sort of defensive elemental resistance component -The godsdamn Blizzard Spectres. Can you beat them without a ring? Yeah. Should you be required to scum it out against them, have 50 Reflex, or bum rush them and hope our decades old AI fails as it usually does? No.
Quote:
- Black Label Potions are being removed.
As long as the people who invested time, DC, and RP are getting refunded, cool. But either way you're spiting a deal of people with this at a time when we might not want to. Is a premonition potion pretty bonkers? Oh hells yes, I thought it when I first saw Vyashir with them. That and most of the other could make it a cakewalk to epics if you could get your hands on them soon enough. But even still, I'd rather see the things replaced with lesser effects than outright ripped from people's inventory with no recompense.
But it's whatever. This is an "announcement" and not a discussion as someone said. We'll hack first and see what needs patching up afterwards, as is the Amian M.O. But at least we can always roll back if it proves problematic.
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
As long as the people who invested time, DC, and RP are getting refunded, cool. But either way you're spiting a deal of people with this at a time when we might not want to. Is a premonition potion pretty bonkers? Oh hells yes, I thought it when I first saw Vyashir with them. That and most of the other could make it a cakewalk to epics if you could get your hands on them soon enough. But even still, I'd rather see the things replaced with lesser effects than outright ripped from people's inventory with no recompense..
I agree. I would rather have seen these items just removed from the lootbin, and have the ones that exist 'fade into history' as the characters that own them die, leave or disappear...and have the others become truly rare and legendary items. But, I'm not going to get get bent out of shape with the changes. People will either adapt or they won't.
_________________ Sembian Trading Company logo created by Suicidal.
@ darkimmolation; I can do the blizzard specters fine with no immunity.
additionally I had no idea so many people had the arcane defiance gear, enough of you have it where some of you unironically consider a 5% drop from a creature that can drop 140+ items was actually required for 'balance.' im starting to feel like I was left out.
As long as the people who invested time, DC, and RP are getting refunded, cool. But either way you're spiting a deal of people with this at a time when we might not want to. Is a premonition potion pretty bonkers? Oh hells yes, I thought it when I first saw Vyashir with them. That and most of the other could make it a cakewalk to epics if you could get your hands on them soon enough. But even still, I'd rather see the things replaced with lesser effects than outright ripped from people's inventory with no recompense..
I agree. I would rather have seen these items just removed from the lootbin, and have the ones that exist 'fade into history' as the characters that own them die, leave or disappear...and have the others become truly rare and legendary items. But, I'm not going to get get bent out of shape with the changes. People will either adapt or they won't.
people like to sit on legacy shit and bust it out when they really need it. check out the number of times someone used something that would never be approved today or hasn't been available for literal years in the few pvp tournies we had. as soon as the going gets tough in pvp or there's something on the line people bust out the custom/should-have-been-deleted shit, as a frequent pvp'er you can take my word for it.
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
Jace has a set of arcane defiance mail, that he only used when he was fallen. Actually wearing armor is very much against his usual RP. I feel what is important to mention is that in know way are actual builds being nerfed. If you have a solid build, it will remain as such. This is only creating variety on what we see and rather what certain characters are good for. Barbarians shrug off elemental damage, dexers get ie for taking the appropriate feats. Buy simply slapping on a ring, you take away heavilly from those classes. If you want SR, they have a class for that too. Also..someone mentioned that wizards are one if the poorest classes mechanically in game. That alone is a red flag for the need for change. That Halaster..he was a real wimp..
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Yeah thats what blows my mind. There are zero class changes. "Op mages," or as sexi-time server participant "Akhlys" said "great wizarding has begun," were always or never a thing. For most of us, most of us that didn't play here for years or play during the glimquisition, the 'great wizarding' never ended.
Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
I mean..raise your hand if you ever played on a server that had class restrictions (ie you must take at least 5 levels), and skill dumping was not allowed. Amia is very liberal.
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
The godsdamn Blizzard Spectres. Can you beat them without a ring? Yeah. Should you be required to scum it out against them, have 50 Reflex, or bum rush them and hope our decades old AI fails as it usually does? No.
Try drinking an elemental shield potion and wearing cold resist. Done.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Commie wrote:
@ darkimmolation; I can do the blizzard specters fine with no immunity.
TormakSaber wrote:
Try drinking an elemental shield potion and wearing cold resist. Done.
Dark Immolation wrote:
Can you beat them without a ring? Yeah.
... I feel I should mention I don't personally have problems with beating them, I just think, and have always thought, they were a poorly designed enemy. There are plenty of tricks to beating them. I'm not complaining because I can't beat the fuckers, when I need easy loot to grind, even before I had a Cold Immunity Ring, they were a prime choice. But that's exactly the thing. The gap in their difficulty between knowing a trick or two(or having an immunity ring) is much too large for an epic mob. They're either your bane or a picking up bread from the store. But I'm not trying to digress this into a discussion of creature design, because no one has been at that helm in years.
I return only to say I think I get why Evasion Rings are getting -2 Reflex now, but even then it's not necessary. A player is nabbing a feat people have to invest in, at least 1 level in, and DM/Devs don't want it to be "the same." Understandable, but I'd say it's fine without the penalty to Reflex complicating things. The same way Cleave or Power Attack doesn't need to be "caveated" when placed on an item, especially an epic loot. Simply changing it from IE to Evasion is just right, and I say that as someone with no particular dog in the fight, as all of my characters have Evasion/Improved Evasion from their classes. Besides, I really prefer it when we think of the mechanical narrative of our items and their properties. Evasion rings make you better at dodging(Evasion), but... worse... at dodging(-2 Reflex).
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
I'd suggest adding in a /5 resist in addition to the 50% immunity in order to preserve them as still negating enviro damage (which I still hate and think is a horrible and obnoxious idea/mechanic).
@ darkimmolation; I can do the blizzard specters fine with no immunity.
TormakSaber wrote:
Try drinking an elemental shield potion and wearing cold resist. Done.
Dark Immolation wrote:
Can you beat them without a ring? Yeah.
... I feel I should mention I don't personally have problems with beating them, I just think, and have always thought, they were a poorly designed enemy. There are plenty of tricks to beating them. I'm not complaining because I can't beat the fuckers, when I need easy loot to grind, even before I had a Cold Immunity Ring, they were a prime choice. But that's exactly the thing. The gap in their difficulty between knowing a trick or two(or having an immunity ring) is much too large for an epic mob. They're either your bane or a picking up bread from the store. But I'm not trying to digress this into a discussion of creature design, because no one has been at that helm in years.
I return only to say I think I get why Evasion Rings are getting -2 Reflex now, but even then it's not necessary. A player is nabbing a feat people have to invest in, at least 1 level in, and DM/Devs don't want it to be "the same." Understandable, but I'd say it's fine without the penalty to Reflex complicating things. The same way Cleave or Power Attack doesn't need to be "caveated" when placed on an item, especially an epic loot. Simply changing it from IE to Evasion is just right, and I say that as someone with no particular dog in the fight, as all of my characters have Evasion/Improved Evasion from their classes. Besides, I really prefer it when we think of the mechanical narrative of our items and their properties. Evasion rings make you better at dodging(Evasion), but... worse... at dodging(-2 Reflex).
Magical item that sap your physical ability to do things in return for a supernatural ability is a classic trope.
Also the blizzard spectres were never meant to be the entire dungeon, they were always just meant to be a companion to the Snowbeast, I'm not sure why or when they got made into the entire mini dungeon (and that entire place gutted into one tiny area.... zzzzzzzzzzz)
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
I'd suggest adding in a /5 resist in addition to the 50% immunity in order to preserve them as still negating enviro damage (which I still hate and think is a horrible and obnoxious idea/mechanic).
I agree with this. Let you shrug off negligible damage.
was improved evasion on kumagawa allready removed?
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
Keep in mind that IGMS is easily 100% avoidable by turning 180' and moving in that direction. All having 5 M/R DR does, is make it do 70 damage max (100% avoided by mantle), also being half of a melee critical, and finally, while eating a 9th level spell slot. Further; it makes a melee spell so bad that you don't even need to kite the mage, just keep melee'ing it until they inevitably run out of spells, all while having little to zero risk of actually dying provided you are timing heals properly (and you don't even need to position yourself).
the problem with IGMS, is due to unimagintive mages, not the warriors that wear the arcane defiance plate, that being said, it is still overpowered.
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
Keep in mind that IGMS is easily 100% avoidable by turning 180' and moving in that direction. All having 5 M/R DR does, is make it do 70 damage max (100% avoided by mantle), also being half of a melee critical, and finally, while eating a 9th level spell slot. Further; it makes a melee spell so bad that you don't even need to kite the mage, just keep melee'ing it until they inevitably run out of spells, all while having little to zero risk of actually dying provided you are timing heals properly (and you don't even need to position yourself).
exactly. just walk away. that's a reliable dependable combat option when it nullifies a limited-use threat like igms.
There are a lot of changes that can and should happen with a lot of spells, both to bring some up, and lower others with the end goal of creating more interesting options over all, and no real useless spell. Issue is time and manpower, really, i expect. Alas, i think removing the 5/- is not the end, and that its likely we will see a follow up in the next few months with changes to the spell itself to perhaps bring it down a bit.
That said, a few ideas i've been considering would be;
Disallow IGMS as a Maximized spell. Reliable, 240x3 a round is.. kind of a lot. At least with Empowered it MIGHT be higher, but likely ranges lower. IGMS itself is not OP, Maxed IGMS is a bit over the top.
Make IGMS and other such spells a Ranged Touch Attack, but IDEALLY instead of Dex being counted to the hit chance, ones caster stat, or half CL is counted. This is a buff for Dex based characters in def vs IGMS sadly, and won't really make a difference to the str based sorts i expect. Also has the effect of giving said attacks a Crit chance, comically.
Make IGMS have a reflex for half, disregarding IE/E. Make it one save per missile, akin to Flame Arrow. This could see the damage of a volley on one person as low as 60, from a maxed spell. 60 damage to one target for a 9th lvl slot does not feel that great though.
Maybe simply reduce the range down to Medium, or long? As someone said pointed out, it does less damage once, then a single crit in melee. The difference is, melee is melee and avoidable more easily the endless range IGMS. If the range was lower though, it could be big risk big reward type play, akin to a melee crit.
Trouble also comes with with builds though, any of these options vs a 200 hp char is a dream come true, and while a heavy nerf, still viable as a spell. But when you have some 400+ HP freak it turns into a matter of simply not being able to do enough damage to actually kill said person between heals.
I apparently don't know that much about Wizards though, as i am as someone said above, one of the casuals that think the HB+GR combo is clever. All i can really do is look at what seems to work, and what feels right. What does not feel right, is casting a spell, for no results. Immunity to energy outside of obvious cases like Fire Elementals vs Fire always felt so.. annoying. Boss running, there is a set of spells you can use to beat most of them if you figure it out, but if you don't come with just that right set? Oh boy.. Heaven forbid you think to fight the Snow Beast with fire spells, because that mother fucker has like 60 relfex and IE. I might be exaggerating. I understand WHY he has that, but if it was such an issue, why not just reduce, or remove his fire vulnerability and give him a reflex of 40 with no E/IE? Now said fire spells do half damage, usually. The idea that something is 100% immune with little feedback is frustrating, i know, rest, prepare, bring the right spells, do research. Sometimes you don't have time to do all that, though.
Anyway, i'm rambling about something that cant be changed or fixed easily anymore.
240 a round for 3 rounds tops is not a lot considering a heal pot heals for 80% of your total, and things like heal (the spell) heal kits, sanctuary/haven, greater resto etc all exist.
it's also slow consistent reliable damage that always does the same damage and pings off spell resistance. just heal through it. its literally not threatening.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
I still say give it a ranged touch component. So desperately do I want some actual non-casting stat synergy to a few spells. I had a general idea that would work for a number of them, but the missile storm series would be a good place to test it.
Honestly, as someone who plays a (partial) mage and has fought against plenty, I find the suggestion of "walk away" as laughable as when it was suggested for when flying ranged characters fly up to inaccessible ledges. The point is not that there are not ways to beat(read: survive) certain strategies. The point is that they depend so much on clandestine skill, or know how, or non-intuitive tricks to the point it's not even about playing the game any more. It becomes meta. A bad meta. And that makes for a bad game. Generally the more accessible and transparent strategies and counter-strategies are, the more enjoyable the game is for everyone. It's the problem anyone in the fighting game community can relate to I'm sure, but that's another story.
Give it time. Let a couple of people(who have "grown up" on Amia with Arcane Defiance always being a thing) lose PvP in 1-2 rounds because of Max IGMS, slow action queue, and/or spotty ping. There was a reason we had that 5/- magic accessible. Maybe it wasn't the greatest answer to the problem, but rolling it back hasn't suddenly remedied the symptoms that existed beforehand. The truth is we haven't really found the right answer to IGMS, as far back as when we had spell components for it. It's the same issue we have with death magic and any other fort-based roll. In any situation you beat someone's Fortitude, and it wasn't a death spell, you've wasted your time. You could have killed them outright. It's sort of the same for IGMS. If you roll a reflex damage save, and you do less than 120 Damage(which is more likely when you factor in resistances, immunities, and Evasion), you've probably wasted your time. You could have done guaranteed damage. As long as that damage is guaranteed, even more so now that 5/- magic resist isn't a thing, it won't matter how attractive or viable we make damage-based reflex spells. It's not guaranteed damage, it's probably not what PvP honchos are gonna go for. IGMS/ILMS/Magic Missile need some other factor now, pure and simple. And I think ranged touch is a workable answer.
_________________
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
I still say give it a ranged touch component. So desperately do I want some actual non-casting stat synergy to a few spells. I had a general idea that would work for a number of them, but the missile storm series would be a good place to test it.
Wouldn't a touch-attack make it epic dodgeable? Would it be 20+ touch-attacks a round then? What's the suggestion here in detail
Dark Immolation wrote:
Honestly, as someone who plays a (partial) mage and has fought against plenty, I find the suggestion of "walk away" as laughable as when it was suggested for when flying ranged characters fly up to inaccessible ledges.
99% sure using shadow-jump or flight to harass/pvp from inaccessible areas is a severely punishable offense. Contact a DM if you ever see it. If it turns out that I'm wrong and it is allowed im going to make a character that will take ic actions to get it disallowed inside of a month.
Dark Immolation wrote:
The point is not that there are not ways to beat(read: survive) certain strategies. The point is that they depend so much on clandestine skill, or know how, or non-intuitive tricks to the point it's not even about playing the game any more. It becomes meta. A bad meta. And that makes for a bad game. Generally the more accessible and transparent strategies and counter-strategies are, the more enjoyable the game is for everyone. It's the problem anyone in the fighting game community can relate to I'm sure, but that's another story.
Healing through a consistent, reliable, and immobile damage source isn't a 'meta.' Literally anyone can do it. To compare it to fighting games as you did, it's the equivalent of losing to someone that only chucked fireballs and you just didn't bother to learn any of the myriad of ways the game gives you to handle something that's, strategically speaking, as base as it gets. Then, of course, hopping on the forums and complaining about fireball spam.
Have a friend or pet with you and the damage is halved, not to mention how absurdly easy it is to just tank/heal it. Basically anyone can hit 400+ hp and those that cant have other methods of spell defense (such as Spell Resistance, haven, or greater sanctuary).
Dark Immolation wrote:
Give it time. Let a couple of people(who have "grown up" on Amia with Arcane Defiance always being a thing) lose PvP in 1-2 rounds because of Max IGMS, slow action queue, and/or spotty ping. There was a reason we had that 5/- magic accessible.
Stopping you here. A boss that has a 5% roll, to roll on a 130 count item table is about as far away from 'accessible' as you can get. And good luck entering a bidding war with old-time PC's that are willing to drop 15 million on the things just so they can hand it to their pal's level 26 pally along with two immunity rings, something I witnessed in character. It is in no way shape or form accessible for people who havn't "grown up" on Amia. Please stop acting like it somehow is.
Check your gear privilege. Seriously.
Dark Immolation wrote:
Maybe it wasn't the greatest answer to the problem, but rolling it back hasn't suddenly remedied the symptoms that existed beforehand. The truth is we haven't really found the right answer to IGMS
Yes we have. It's called healing through it, walking away, iron horn (available on non UMD items, go get em), or spell resistance. I'm much more afraid of harm-based strats then 240 damage, time stop fuckery, shadow-dancers breaking an action queue and me missing a half action because of it... because IGMS, the 240 damage is so consistent you can literally look at your HP bar, look at your items/skills, and just determine if/when you need to heal to keep living at any time.
Dark Immolation wrote:
as far back as when we had spell components for it. It's the same issue we have with death magic and any other fort-based roll. In any situation you beat someone's Fortitude, and it wasn't a death spell, you've wasted your time. You could have killed them outright. It's sort of the same for IGMS. If you roll a reflex damage save, and you do less than 120 Damage(which is more likely when you factor in resistances, immunities, and Evasion), you've probably wasted your time. You could have done guaranteed damage. As long as that damage is guaranteed, even more so now that 5/- magic resist isn't a thing, it won't matter how attractive or viable we make damage-based reflex spells. It's not guaranteed damage, it's probably not what PvP honchos are gonna go for. IGMS/ILMS/Magic Missile need some other factor now, pure and simple. And I think ranged touch is a workable answer.
IGMS has weaknesses. SR. The long cast animation. The fact it gets far less effective with multiple targets. The fact it's limited-use damage compared to damage on non-magic players. The fact it does only 240 damage and you get like 6 period. You can haven or greater scant out. You can run out and re-engage. Summon a tanky pet or have a friend or two nearby and it's basically off the table as a combat option.
It's just single-target damage that roots the caster, and it's not even that much damage compared to the better options. Of all the absurd balance things in this game, IGMS is not one of them.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Heal potions are only effective the first time. If you're taking 240 damage every second round, they're not going to save you and while you're spending time drinking heal potions to survive, they're casting a second or third time around.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
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