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I believe the perma freedom items are being changed into Freedom per day items. Not that i'm privy to DM backstage, but i recall that being discussed and seems like a good option. If not +5 reflex save instead of freedom, or something of that nature.

Confusion and Fear seem a little off to me atm. Fear is good, spot on. Confusion though, why only 3 rounds? It is the same level as Fear, and the CC is far weaker. Unless you want to turn on Full PvP? Then we can have some good times..

The secondary effect of Confusion kind of sucks too. I mean, it's good, sure, but ugh.. -2(4) wis/int/cha is annoying if one will have to reset their spell list. If it resets auto like the polly spells then sure, i can live with this. Otherwise, i'd rather see it changed to a -3(6) will or something of that nature.

Sleep, is a CC that breaks on taking damage (I think this is how it works?) such a threat it can't go high enough to be useful for high level content?

Scare, does not seem such a threat either that it really needs to be limited by the HD, otherwise it really is just a useless spell later. Even if it only affected CLx2 or something it could be useful at times.

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The secondary effect of Confusion kind of sucks too. I mean, it's good, sure, but ugh.. -2(4) wis/int/cha is annoying if one will have to reset their spell list. If it resets auto like the polly spells then sure, i can live with this. Otherwise, i'd rather see it changed to a -3(6) will or something of that nature.

Removing spells is a deliberate effect. Consider it a magical "confusion". Keep in mind these are effects being placed on your enemies... so I doubt you mind that they lose a couple spells?

Brief aside re: sleep, I feel like that was a cc that deserved to at least stay as it is if not receive buff of some sort. The duration needed to stay at least. It is one of the few non-violent ways you have to subdue a target. It becomes pretty useless if they would simply pop up again every few rounds. If you try to use it in battle you're probably not using it efficiently. If all you're going to do is damage the enemy after making them sleep you might have had an easier time using higher level, higher DC spells that would stun, hold, or blind them, and keep them in that state during the attack.

Perhaps, however, it could stand to gain some post-spell "groggy" effect. When woken up you're a bit off your game for a while, as represented by some states penalty, but you gain some slight boost to resisting additional sleep spells for a few minutes. Sleep remains a good way to get away or subdue a target. It can be used in battle and a freshly awoken enemy does end up being less of a threat. But it becomes less likely that your could infinitely string on an enemy with assaults and sleep or keep someone sleeping indefinitely.

The other CC changes seem like good things, generally. But yeah, sleep already had a tough enough time as it was.

3 rounds is more than enough time to attack whatever target fell down for a coup de grace, and the spell foci add more HD allowing you to sleep more creatures, and higher level creatures. End of the day, it's still a level 1 spell, and its power is commensurate with that.

Honestly the cc durations of right now are pretty much all the time you need to follow up with damage spells. It won't necessarily mow down crowds of PCs, but I don't think anything should

TormakSaber wrote:

3 rounds is more than enough time to attack whatever target fell down for a coup de grace, and the spell foci add more HD allowing you to sleep more creatures, and higher level creatures. End of the day, it's still a level 1 spell, and its power is commensurate with that.

No that was my point Tormak, it's the one cc that isn't necessarily there to be followed by an attack. You put a thing to sleep so you can keep it subdued and not hurt it. If you hurt it it wakes up. That's why if you're trying to cc and attack something, you're better off using something that keep someone incapacitated the whole 3 rounds, rather than sleep which someone will make up from at the first instance of damage. Sleep doesn't really have a point compared to the other hard cc's without the duration. I suppose the coup de grace is a possible use of it, but iirc the HD cap for coups in nwn is really low.

He actually has a, pretty good point, but honestly three rounds is plenty of time to leave a fight. And if you want non-lethal solutions, you as a player can simply hand them an ooc raise and role play it how you like.

Edit: also a level 1 spell doesn't need to be able to compete. Its level 1 for that reason.

TormakSaber wrote:

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The secondary effect of Confusion kind of sucks too. I mean, it's good, sure, but ugh.. -2(4) wis/int/cha is annoying if one will have to reset their spell list. If it resets auto like the polly spells then sure, i can live with this. Otherwise, i'd rather see it changed to a -3(6) will or something of that nature.

Removing spells is a deliberate effect. Consider it a magical "confusion". Keep in mind these are effects being placed on your enemies... so I doubt you mind that they lose a couple spells?

It's just annoying to have to reset the spell slots in one's book, is all. I'd not want it cast on me! But it's not a huge deal.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Edit: also a level 1 spell doesn't need to be able to compete. Its level 1 for that reason.

If that was the case, all spells would have a HD rating, and only epic spells would effect epic creatures. As it stands, Color Spray, 1+1d4 rounds stun with no HD, same level, same save, different aoe. Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike, PfA.. not counting Magic Missile even, all spells that affect creatures of higher level, and while not game changing, are USEFUL at all levels of play.

Well, I never said they can't, but balancing them to compete isn't a huge deal. I know I'm stocking up on grease wands for when perma freedom gets fixed and going ham on cc when the time comes. But if the rest of cc is getting nerfed why would sleep be special and not some spell that requires larger investment to both vast and learn?

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Well, I never said they can't, but balancing them to compete isn't a huge deal. I know I'm stocking up on grease wands for when perma freedom gets fixed and going ham on cc when the time comes. But if the rest of cc is getting nerfed why would sleep be special and not some spell that requires larger investment to both vast and learn?

whats happening to perma freedom?

Its being replaced with freedom/day and that's why cc is being changed so it's not disproportionately the most powerful thing ever. Otherwise I would be acid fogging all day

List of cantrips

Acid splash = Damage increased to 1d3 + 1. An additional 1d3+1 acid per spell focus.
Cure minor wounds = 2+ hp per focus.
Daze = +1 HD per spell focus.
Electric jolt = Damage increased to 1d3 + 1. An additional 1d3+1 electrical per spell focus.
Flare = +1 round per spell focus.
Inflict minor wounds = +1 damage per spell focus.
Light = No change.
Ray of frost = An additional1d4 + 1 cold damage per spell focus.
Virtue = 10 HP to max per spell focus. Max 30. No stacking.

Bigby

Bigby's are all changed to a 5 round duration with +1 round for epic focus.
Clenched fist and crushing hand got +2/+4 damage for normal and greater foci

Dominate Person + Monster

Domination is 5 rounds + 1 for epic focus and secondary effect of -2 will (PCs only), Mobs still have original effect.

Good work team.

Does this include Bigby's Interposing?

Is Bigby's Clenched Fist going to have the Conc requirement removed? We are all aware that it does not actually hold anyone in place like Grasping and Crushing right? Just a Fort save per round vs a 1 round stun.

Bigby's Crushing Hand - Duration is reduced to 5 rounds.

Spell Focus Evocation grants +2 to damage per round
Greater Spell Focus Evocation grants +4 damage per round
Epic Spell Focus Evocation grants +1 round duration

Bigby's Clenched Fist - Duration is reduced to 5 rounds.

Spell Focus Evocation grants +2 to damage per round
Greater Spell Focus Evocation grants +4 damage per round
Epic Spell Focus Evocation grants +1 round duration

Bigby's Grasping Hand - Duration is reduced to 5 rounds.

Epic Spell Focus Evocation grants +1 round duration

Dominate Person - Duration is reduced to 5 rounds only when cast on a PC/Summon/Familiar.

Epic Spell Focus Enchantment grants +1 round of duration
Added secondary effect -2 Will Save reduction with a duration of 2 rounds + 1 rounds / 3 levels

Dominate Monster - Duration is reduced to 5 rounds only when cast on PC/Summon/Familiar.

Epic Spell Focus Enchantment grants +1 round/turn of duration
Added secondary effect -2 Will Save reduction with a duration of 3 turns + 1 turn / 2 levels

The first wave of spell changes is in (available in the Announcements topic) - these are changes for the Conjuration school.

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New Spell updates -

Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Critical Wounds - + 1d8 per spell focus in conjuration. Epic Spell focus makes it an AoE effect (AoE roughly the size of Mass Heal).
Healing Circle - Healing changed to 5d8 + CL (capped at 25) base, +1d8 per spell focus in conjuration.
Melf's Acid Arrow - +1d6 damage per spell focus in conjuration.
Mestil's Acid Breath - 1d6 to damage cap per spell focus. Epic Spell Focus adds 1/2 damage on second round.
Neutralize Poison/Remove Curse/Blindness/Deafness - Epic spell focus conjuration adds 1round/lvl immunity to the effect removed.
Cloudkill - +2 to HD for instant death per spell focus in conjurations and for save vs. death. Epic spell focus gives and additional +1d10 acid damage.
Mestil's Acid Sheath - Damage reduced to 1d6+1/caster level. Also grants 10/- immunity to the element that is used (fire/cold/acid from BoT). Epic spell focus raises resistance to 15/-.
Monstrous Regeneration - Greater spell focus conjuration increases duration to 1 round/caster level. Epic spell focus increases the duration to 2 rounds/caster level.
Vine Mine - Entangle has 3d6 piercing damage added, Hamper Movement adds -4 Dex and -2 Reflex saves, Camouflage also adds +4 Move Silently
Acid Fog - Each spell focus in conjuration added +1d6 to the secondary damage. Epic spell focus adds +1d6 to the initial damage.

A few other Conjuration changes are coming - Bombardment and Creeping Doom, so druids can expect a little more love.

I'm curious about the change to Mestil's Sheathe. It's sort of what I suggested, but with lower damage and much lower resistance. Mestil's needed some re-balancing, but as it stands this change has made it worse than Elemental Shield in most situations, which was something to be avoided...

All else seems pretty good.

The Acid Sheathe change makes me shudder. It is interesting that Elemental Shield has the same damage now. I dig the resistances, but i wonder if given Acid Sheathe was lowered, could the effects not be let to stack now? It means that one could cast all three (or four i guess) and it would only have just a bit more damage than old Acid Sheathe, while taking much longer to set up.

The Acid Arrow change, is that 1d6 added to the initial damage and the DoT?

How will these function with wands? Will the 1r/lvl immune for example work for wands of remove blindness/deafness?

Acid Fog, Epic spell focus adds 1d6 to the initial damage IN ADDITION to the another +1d6 to the DoT effect? Thus making it to +3d6 DoT?

They still shouldn't stack, because then we'd be right back in the old equation of every mage outright doing more damage than is dealt to him by a hit, simply via being hit. Whether it comes from two spells or one spell doesn't really matter.

That said, Mestil's Sheathe still deserves to do more damage(if on'y a little bit more) than Elemental Shield, purely by virtue of being a higher level spell. The resistance can also afford to be higher, because counting on the enemy having one specific energy type is riskier than hedging your bets with 50% off Fire and Cold. Even then, all 10/- is going to do is spare you the supplemental ele damage from creature or PC weapons. You'll still get toasted by spells, things like Frost Sprite pulse, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold from Ice Giants, Fire Giant Flame Strike and Firestorm, where Elemental shield would have been a smarter choice for 50% off whatever may come.

10/- and 15/- can be found on randomly generated shop loot, I think we can afford to go higher than that, due to what I mentioned in my original suggestion and it being a round-based spell.

The only available elemental damages readily available in game go up to 1d12. So 15/- resistance is still pretty nifty.

Dark Immolation wrote:

They still shouldn't stack, because then we'd be right back in the old equation of every mage outright doing more damage than is dealt to him by a hit, simply via being hit. Whether it comes from two spells or one spell doesn't really matter.

That said, Mestil's Sheathe still deserves to do more damage(if on'y a little bit more) than Elemental Shield, purely by virtue of being a higher level spell. The resistance can also afford to be higher, because counting on the enemy having one specific energy type is riskier than hedging your bets with 50% off Fire and Cold. Even then, all 10/- is going to do is spare you the supplemental ele damage from creature or PC weapons. You'll still get toasted by spells, things like Frost Sprite pulse, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold from Ice Giants, Fire Giant Flame Strike and Firestorm, where Elemental shield would have been a smarter choice for 50% off whatever may come.

10/- and 15/- can be found on randomly generated shop loot, I think we can afford to go higher than that, due to what I mentioned in my original suggestion and it being a round-based spell.

+1. I pretty much agree with DI since Mestil's is a higher tier spell than Elemental Shield. It deserves (only) a little bit more than the changes made.

Sheathe is still pretty much going to utterly annihilate anything that attacks you.

I really don't know why it needs to be 'better' then it is right now post nerf, it's still a mechanical monster damage wise and uses more-rarely resisted element then fire (think it's acid and cold with a BoT right?)

It really is not the same though. Having to cast TWO spells now to get up to the same speed of damage return as before means more time invested, and its still going to get stripped before the melee guy bothers to hit you. Not sure how many wizards are going to prepare multiple castings of said combo, at given how common and op breach is Sheathe + Shield is only ever a 1 round delay from a quick ride into the dirt. Sorcerers are a little different as they can just keep casting it and casting it forever, but i've no idea how to fix their lame asses. Really though, it will take a full round to get both up, and were using twice as many slots. I think it would be fine. Besides, can't you still find 10/- or 15/- elemental resist stuff? One of Fire and you knock Elemental Shield damage return down to an ignorable 15, then having the right flavor for the Sheathe and you're set. Ring of Power, and the shields/armor with a bunch of 10/- elemental suddenly become more useful for their resistance.

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The Acid Arrow change, is that 1d6 added to the initial damage and the DoT?

Yes. Sheeler's notes are a bit light, but it's added to both.

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How will these function with wands? Will the 1r/lvl immune for example work for wands of remove blindness/deafness?

No, you need to actually cast it.

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Acid Fog, Epic spell focus adds 1d6 to the initial damage IN ADDITION to the another +1d6 to the DoT effect? Thus making it to +3d6 DoT?

Acid Fog's entry damage is 4d6. Remaining in the cloud is 2d6. Spell and Greater Spell Focus add 1d6 to the secondary making it 4d6 and 4d6. Epic Spell focus adds 1d6 to both, making them both 5d6.

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That said, Mestil's Sheathe still deserves to do more damage(if on'y a little bit more) than Elemental Shield, purely by virtue of being a higher level spell.

It does. with focuses it is 3d6+CL.

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It really is not the same though. Having to cast TWO spells now to get up to the same speed of damage return as before means more time invested, and its still going to get stripped before the melee guy bothers to hit you.

Sheathe should never have been allowed to do that much damage, so not being able to get back up to the same damage isn't a balance concern.

TormakSaber wrote:

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That said, Mestil's Sheathe still deserves to do more damage(if on'y a little bit more) than Elemental Shield, purely by virtue of being a higher level spell.

It does. with focuses it is 3d6+CL.

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Mestil's Acid Sheath - Damage reduced to 1d6+1/caster level. Also grants 10/- immunity to the element that is used (fire/cold/acid from BoT). Epic spell focus raises resistance to 15/-.

Ah, then that was left out of the explanation. So is it SF adds +1d6, GSF adds +1d6, ESF adds 5 more resistance? That's a little better then.

I still think the resistance could stand to be upped per focus and/or in general. The ignoring elemental weapon damage thing is nice, but resistance that low falls off awful hard at higher levels as compared to 50% Immunity. I.E. Max Fireball: 30 absorbed by Ele Shield, only 15 Absorbed by Fire Sheathe. Max Firebrand: 45 absorbed by Ele Shield, 15 again by Fire Sheathe. Ele shield will save you against a horde of Ice Sprites... they'll laugh over your frozen bones at Ice Sheathe's 10-15 resistance, however. >_> It's a new change and we can see where it falls, but from a pure game design standpoint, Ice Sheathe/Fire Sheathe should probably do a better job at protecting you from their respective elements than a lower spell that is as readily available as cherry kool-aid.

I kind of feel like Disjunction could use a nerf. Leave the Dispel aspect as it is, but cut the breaching of 6 spells.

Or perhaps a better idea is to reduce the number of breached spells to 2 base, with +1 at epic focus?

Maybe even lower the various breaching spells a bit? Lesser could be 1 +1 for ESF, Greater could be 2 +2 for ESF.

It has always felt off to me, that a Cleric, Druid, or anyone, can invest a bunch of rounds into buffing up, only to have their most powerful spells breached off. Currently, even if you are a 30th level caster, you can be totally debuffed by any novice with a Disjunction.

Mostly spitballing here, i'm not sure what the right answer is, only that it feels wrong.

Perhaps flipping or resorting the Breach List could be a viable tactic instead of, or in addition to? In this way, one can protect their more valued buffs, by adding more layers of lesser buffs.

Breaching in general is kind of a... maybe not unfair, but certainly unilateral mechanic. Especially when taken out of the hands of casters. Or heck, even when used by casters against noncasters. But there really isn't a simple solution for making it have more counterplay, at least no solution I've thought of yet.

I'm personally not a fan of fighting a cleric fully-warded and not being able to do anything about those wards unless im a wizard or something though.

Just the same, it's not exactly great to have a 29 ftr/1 rog be able to strip a pure wizard or cleric of 6 of their strongest spells, with not recourse, counter, or mitigation. 3 to 6 rounds of buffing undone in 1 round for a couple thousand GP. Same for a meleer taking the wise precaution of drinking potions before engaging an enemy mage, only to have then wiped out the first round. Breach violates the conventional game logic of rewarding preparation. Like I said, noncaster to caster, or caster to noncaster, it always feels like you're getting so much for so little and there is literally nothing the other party can do to combat the attempt.

The best thing I could imagine is to 1) possibly in invert the list as was suggested, so you can buffer what you'd rather protect and 2) change breach to a suppression effect rather than outright removal. Meaning the cl of the breach is rolled against the cl of the spell, and depending on how much the roll is failed by, the spell is treated as not being in effect for a certain number of seconds or rounds. After this time, the spell would come back up, possibly with a cool down until it could be breached again. -That- would be my ideal fix, but I don't think there is a way to do that feasibly, as storing spells and certainly durations and CLs of spells is a nightmare in NWN to my understanding. I'd settle with a list inversion for now, which might be as simple as editing a notepad file I think.

I personally didn't suggest a change to mordenkainens, as I considered it the great equalizer and was genuinely worried what would happen if it was messed with.

I can agree that breaches should strip the lowest appropriate spells first, as that just seems to make more sense, but I definitely don't think it should be removed.

Choosing spells for a fight is important, and any spell cast is an opening to your opponent for them to cut or cast you down. A lot can happen in 3 or 6 seconds - A string of knockdown attacks or immobilizing magic. If a druid is hit, it's still time in which their summons can be ripping into the person responsible - and if a cleric is hit, breach won't take away the offensive and AB bonus spells they can be shredding the caster with.

The spell is by no means a freebie or game breaking, though it could use some very minor tweaks.

I rather like spellbreaches as they are; an equalizer against the strongest spells. Heck, I even tend to put up a few extra spells I don't need that are high on the breach list, just to have potential breaches eat them before anything else I wanna keep. For instance, if people got lesser spellbreaches, put up a spellmantle so it gets eaten by the breach instead of the shadowshield (assuming you also have premonition up). It's doeable to work around it, and to gain an advantage against people who don't. And if someone is casting a normal/greater or disjunction on you, then they deserve to strip the stuff because you didn't counterspell them. And if you couldn't counterspell them, then you're likely not a wizard or sorc, and won't loose much if anything to the breach part of the spell anyway...

If people are using multiple breaches to eat up most of your defenses, then use that time to strike back with 2 spells per breach they can dish out (assuming it's not a spellcaster), or just recast the essentials if need be. Breach and it's effects is just fine as is and neither overpowered or underpowered since haste and imp invis isn't on the breach list, but other extremely powerful spells are, such as premo/g.stoneskin/stoneskin, shadowshield, sheath, mindblank, energybuffer and so on. It's a situational thing that allows you to take advantage against enemies that use the spesific spells listed and can be defended against if you know how it works. Inverting the breach list would make the breach effect nearly useless imho, and be woefully underpowered ESPECIALLY when used in scroll form by non arcane casters.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Breach

Note how most of the spells on a high priority are the arcane spells, and that clerics or druids can get away pretty much untouched by breach spells, as can bards. And both wizards and especially sorcerers can easily work around a breach if need be, by recasting the lost spell if it's really important OR use "throwaway" spells on a high breach priority to protect the ones you want to keep.

My big beef with it is that a wizard or druid or cleric with < 30 levels of the class (such as 28/1/1 or the common 27/2/1) are far easier to dispel then a potion drank by a 30 fighter.

Frankly I don't really get why it's like that and don't understand why it can't be fixed. Why are non-magic classes harder to dispel then full casters? Or at absolute best their potions are just AS hard to dispel as someone that went 30 wizard?

Who knows.

Only thing I don't really like about Mord's is that it comes on a scroll, and can be used with as little as 1 point in UMD. The spell really shouldn't be changed, except to respect all victims to evaluate caster level as level of character (30), then in turn nerfing/changing/removing Greater Dispel. Having non-casters resist more of it, as I've said in the past, is retarded, and obviously a mechanical limitation by bioware, and not a design decision.

Yeah thst wasn't a "who knows" at you guys it was aimed at the system.

But I feel some mass access to dispelling is mandatory to some degree. I'd rather see mordie scrolls nerfed in some way, perhaps by limiting the breach number on scrolls or something.

The pot caster level dispel was actally fixed.... then quickly reverted as people complained that their potions were being dispelled by giants and Sahuagin and demons.

SoundedIke intended behavior to me, but the fix was reverted and now we're back to bugged as standard.

TormakSaber wrote:

The pot caster level dispel was actally fixed.... then quickly reverted as people complained that their potions were being dispelled by giants and Sahuagin and demons.

SoundedIke intended behavior to me, but the fix was reverted and now we're back to bugged as standard.

This.

So yep.

It's .... sort of similar but not exactly to the suggestion I/BH had.

Before, Terra had changed all of the dispels so that they all worked slightly better, but more evenly and CL was not arbitrarily calculated. This was done using a nwnx_plugin. This led to the results which are accurately presented in Tormak's post.

However, modifying the Mordenkainen's Disjunction spell all by itself to not use the bioware engine's method to handle the dispelling, but re-writing it to force everyone to be recognized as their PC level (instead of haphazardly taking the highest caster level someone has), and making it work the same otherwise.

The second part of course, since I mentioned it, was Greater Dispel, since it will still work against people who have less than 23 caster levels in their main, which is a problem for the same reason. Alas, Greater Dispel can be nerfed as well or removed entirely to work around this change.

This will effectively skate around the issue we had with the fire giants, and completely level Mordenkainen's Disjunction to impact everyone equally, which is far more fair than the bugged equation it currently performs.

Really though, if a mob is given greater dispel, and people expect it to never dispel them, and get mad when it does, we have to ask ourselves... "Why does this monster even have this spell?" Sadly though, to PvP, this remains one of the greatest balance issues still present, and neutralizing it to be fair seems to be the path of least resistance.

That was a good post.

I'm not a fan of regular mobs given dispels, Fire Giant Witches and Mindflayers in particular. You mess up against a spawn once, or fail to rush them in time, and your whole routine is ruined for the rest of the run. It's just not... fun in any way. You either hide behind a summon or designate someone as the lightning rod in your party; sadly these strategies only work half the time because as bad as the AI is, it still manages to be antagonistically unpredictable when it actually matters. The mob dies in 30 seconds, but dispelling your buffs lasts until your next rest. For Bosses and such it's fine, because you're at the end of your run anyway.

Part of the AI routine does seem to disproportionately target spellcasters. It might just be things with low AC/HP, because they'll bum rush rogues that are hiding even despite the fighter hitting them with a hammer. Running Abyss with Kitsuoko was...weird. They would literally run past the main group to hit a PC that was WELL out of line of sight from the original spawn point.

I'm pretty sure the AI metagames HP and AC, as well as sneak attack damage.

TormakSaber wrote:

I'm pretty sure the AI metagames HP and AC, as well as sneak attack damage.

I thought Disco had it so it could be changed once upon a time or maybe the current is the changed? Either way, monsters chase Mith in circles all day every day.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Just the same, it's not exactly great to have a 29 ftr/1 rog be able to strip a pure wizard or cleric of 6 of their strongest spells, with not recourse, counter, or mitigation. 3 to 6 rounds of buffing undone in 1 round for a couple thousand GP. Same for a meleer taking the wise precaution of drinking potions before engaging an enemy mage, only to have then wiped out the first round. Breach violates the conventional game logic of rewarding preparation. Like I said, noncaster to caster, or caster to noncaster, it always feels like you're getting so much for so little and there is literally nothing the other party can do to combat the attempt.

The best thing I could imagine is to 1) possibly in invert the list as was suggested, so you can buffer what you'd rather protect and 2) change breach to a suppression effect rather than outright removal. Meaning the cl of the breach is rolled against the cl of the spell, and depending on how much the roll is failed by, the spell is treated as not being in effect for a certain number of seconds or rounds. After this time, the spell would come back up, possibly with a cool down until it could be breached again. -That- would be my ideal fix, but I don't think there is a way to do that feasibly, as storing spells and certainly durations and CLs of spells is a nightmare in NWN to my understanding. I'd settle with a list inversion for now, which might be as simple as editing a notepad file I think.

A simple solution to having a 29f/1R not strip you with a mords? Ban blatant skill dumping. Outside of that, keep greater sanc/ timestop/ haven handy and rebuff. Roll with the punches. Another option would be to make mords not scribeable, like Timestop. Palemasters would be sucking, depending on the build, but it would take such a powerful tool out of the hands of s guy with the intelligence of a potato.

Penalizing people who understand the mechanics of a video game only discourages players from attaining any level of skill at this game, which should not be done. At a certain point, if you are not capable of playing the game with mechanical proficiency you will mechanically see consequences for it.

Amia's average player skill is at a terribly low point as it is, don't discourage it further.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Penalizing people who understand the mechanics of a video game only discourages players from attaining any level of skill at this game, which should not be done. At a certain point, if you are not capable of playing the game with mechanical proficiency you will mechanically see consequences for it.

Amia's average player skill is at a terribly low point as it is, don't discourage it further.

I agree here.

Obviously my answer was threefold. My personal preference is that I don't care if you get stripped by a Mords as I am prepared to deal with that when it happens. Fight Beholders..it's good practice. I simply don't think Mords needs nerfed. The spell does at it was designed and is 9th tier. I only presented the other options to the issue. I think a better idea is to humbly accept when you have built a character that is dependent on a seven minute long buffing ritual to become effective, and accept that as a flaw.

A couple of thoughts for Transmutation:

Like Abjuration, it's historically one of the schools that get passed by in terms of increasing affects per Foci. Transmutation spells are boilerplate, and anything without a DC generally works as well for a Master as a novice. These are a few ideas to address that.

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Expeditious Retreat

Base: Gains 2 seconds of DC-BASED Sanctuary, a la the lv 1 Cleric Spell. Afterburners: After the spell's normal duration is up, the caster receives a residual speed increase for a duration equal to the original spell. This increase is determined by spell focus. SF = 120%, GSF = 135%, ESF = 145%.

Speed increase alone tends to suck for getting away from anything. Our AI will follow you to the ends of the earth no matter how fast you run, unless you essentially abuse the AI's tendency to be dumbfounded by terrain. This can be seen when someone haste-runs through an area and you come across multiple spawns wandering around at the transition like they're on a lunch break. A brief speck of DC vs Will Sanc means you've got a chance to break action queue and get those goblins off your heels. By the time you get to higher levels, the Will DC will probably be too low to save you and you'll have to rely on the real deals. The afterburner affect is more a nod towards ER being used as a travel spell more than anything; why waste a lv 3-7 Slot for Haste or Mass Haste when all you needs is gotta-go-fast.

Also, the visual of a mage disappearing in a puff of smoke like VFX_FNF_SUMMON_MONSTER_1, only to be seen 2 seconds later running for the door is hilarious to me.

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Animal Stat Buffs(Bull's, Cat's, etc)

SF changes roll from 1d4 + 1 to 2d2 + 1. GSF changes it to 1d2 + 3. At ESF Transmutation, stat buffs are applied to both caster and target on cast.

Increasing the actual amount the animal buffs give isn't a possibility, as that would affect everyone, not just transmuters. But what I think is possible is that we can make it more likely for you to get the most bang for your buck as a transmuter. At SF, instead of having a minimum of 2 as the result of your die roll, you have a minimum of 3. At GSF, that minimum is 4 and it's just a 50/50 gamble to see if you've saved a Maximized slot or not. By epic levels, most mages are already using maximized because why take the risk, so ESF applies the spell to both caster and target. If you're buffing summons or party members, you can at least save one slot for what you would have cast on yourself. If you cast on yourself, however, there's no change, the roll is still 1d2 + 3.

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Shapechange and Polymorph

See various.

The forms and their abilities have been bandied about forever. This is not to start another discussion over truesight or anything like that. What I suggest, however, is changing the way we balance the forms. Or in truth, actually attempting to balance them so they're not dog shit with occasional flecks of gold in it.

Firstly, adjust the forms DC abilities to go off of Casting Ability + Spell Focus or something. It's silly that Spider has a 1 round DC 16 Web, but a DC 36 Poison on hit at all levels.

Secondly, and I know I'm stepping on holy ground here, but consider item merging. NB4 Tormak: Item merging was something reserved for Shifters, because muh babbies tho. (I'm kidding Tormak <3). But seriously, I think when we sit down and look at it, a Shifter is king of changing form and remains the king of changing form simply because his forms are hands down better in all respects, not because the OoC idea of merging is somehow tied to their skill. It's a nice sentiment, I get it, but honestly a really poor reason to keep a spell as largely unusable for everyone else. If we buy into that, we are really cutting off the easiest way to let forms balance themselves: items. Assume for a moment that the caster is bringing whatever +X gear is appropriate for their level. All Shapechange and Polymorph should be for a caster is giving up your spells to switch around your base STR, DEX, and CON along with a few little resistances(and weaknesses) and gimmicks. Baby's First Tenser's, without the AB, feats, or steroids. What you're mainly changing is again your base stats and a few racial resistances/abilities/saves. But at least Polymorph and Shapechange become less of a death trap, as you're not losing absolutely all of your saves and bonuses by default. That's the biggest obstacle in the forms being useful now; even if it's a strong/dexterous form, you'd be better off in just switching out all your gear and not losing say +12 fort from your items in the process.

As you gain SF/GSF/ESF, your copying of that creature only THEN begins look like what a Shifter is doing. Your forms gain higher stats and more of the true creature's abilities. Even at ESF, things like Zombie, Red Dragon, Slaad, and so forth won't hold a candle to Shifter's, simply because a Shifter's forms are and will continue to be outright better by comparison.

And lastly, and possibly most importantly because any of the above could be done, we need to get rid of most if not all of the Polymorph items from the stores and lootbins. We all know the story. Back before we had a timer on HiPS, giving everyone Hulk's True seeing was marketed as a way to combat it(not a great way mind you, because all a SD had to do was KD your weak buggy ass after you shifted). But, then SD's got a HiPS cooldown. Then, Truesight being in everyone's hands for 3k GP was OP. We removed Hulk's TS. The next natural step is to remove all these items we flooded the stores and bins with, so we can actually tinker with the spell and not worry about everyone having access to it from Kampo's Snack Shack. It's nigh impossible to balance something while having to keep every possible PC build in mind. Reeling that availability in lets us know what we're working with a little better and most importantly reward Transmuters who actually want to try their hand at shapeshifting.

Polymorphs are a fricken nightmare to work on. I really mean a nightmare too. Once I get it down to a science we might touch them but for now I don't think you should expect any changes to them. If we do tackle polymorphs Druids will be getting love first.

As an epic transmuter I have a horse in this race so I would love to offer input. So I will but I need to make sure I'm reasonable about it.

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