So my other favorite class is the Rogue. However I'm not used to this level 30 cap and I don't know if Amia's end game is heavy on the immunity to sneak attack and all enemies have True Seeing? I don't really want to build all the way to 30 to find out my Rogue/SD/Assassin is useless because I can't SA and everything can see me...

I would like to play one of these races: Kobold/Goblin/Tiefling/Halfling

I would really like to do Rogue/SD/Assassin if possible.

If it would REALLY help, I'd be fine with adding in Fighter, Ranger, or Monk instead.

However I'd like to stick to the typical shadowy high AB and crazy DPS dual wielding dagger/shortsword sneak. I'm not too worried about skills as Rogues are pretty good at covering all the ground there. Is it possible to get Concealment 5 times to make all your Attacks be Sneak Attacks?

I'd really like to be able to be useful in parties but I also REALLY REALLY WANT to be able to enjoy the stereotypical RP of a Rogue (Traps, locks, sneaking, etc). I'm not really expecting to be able to solo-dungeon with it.

Thanks in advance! If this has already been discussed and I missed it, please link it!

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Montolio Dante Mardello
Rogue TBD

If by self concealment the feat, then no you cant get sc5. I think 2 or 3 is the max you can get on a lvl 30 server. To my knowledge though, it never made all your attack sneaks. There are weapons that have blind as an on hit, which sorta does the same thing though.

My main character is actually a Rog/Ass/Ftr, rebuilt from Rog/Ass/SD. I'd say personally it depends on how willing you are to pay attention and die a few times... At some point you will find out what is SA immune or has true seeing. I still think it is BS that orcs at CR 8? near Bendir Dale have an ability a 30 mage doesn't, but at least PC don't have TS.
I have to say though, SA immunity is pretty common, so you'd need to know what isn't immune. The nice high level areas, like manor or abyss are mostly sneak immune, but for example yetis or sahuagin aren't. As for how effective rogues actually are... You deal nice damage, but soloing anything is pretty difficult IMO, though HiPS should help you there.
But maybe my character is just terribly built and I can't solo because of that...

16 Rogue/8 Fighter/6 Shadowdancer has all the essentials:

- 8d6 Sneak
- +6 Dmg from weapon specialization/epic weapon specialization for Sneak immune foes.
- HiPS from 6 SD
- 4 Attacks, or 6 with two weapons
- Epic dodge

6 Ranger/6 Shadowdancer/18 Assassin has:

- 9d6 Death attack
- HiPS from 6 SD
- 4 Attacks, or 6 with two weapons (or 5 if you don't want to spend any feats and rely on Ranger feats)
- Epic dodge
- Assassins special on hit attacks (same DC as Death attack), including Murder (on-hit: Death)
- Weak Animal companion (Need your trusty hawk for RP? Get it here)
- +4 Hide/Move silently in wilderness.

But those are just builds I've worked with. I'm at work right now and can't tinker around with Rog/Ass/SD, but it can't get 4 attacks naturally on main hand. The lack of full BAB classes also mean your AB is going to stay quite low, which can make things a bit annoying to hit.

In my opinion Rogue and Assassin cover many of the same bases, so you might want to dump one of them.

Take a look at this, might help you figure out how to go about making an Assassin [16 levels is a sweet spot].

Doesn't have any rogue in it, but has all the stuff a rogue does. Here's a build made for Amia that worked really great for me, still one of my fav builds of all time. You can rework that for 30 levels without much hassle, as i picked drow for the extra INT and SR. Focuses in Kamas for the possibility of 3 Death attacks in the first flurry, provided you find Bonus Feat: Ambidex+Two Weap. Fight. items. Afair.

Monk6/SD6/Ass16
Drow, LE

STR 09
DEX 19 [26]
CON 10
WIS 10
INT 16 +2
CHA 08 +2

Death Attack DC 36, IKD, Daze DC 30, SFist DC 30, Shade, 8d6

01: -Monk(01): Dodge
02: Monk(02):
03: Monk(03): WFinesse
04: Monk(04):
05: -Monk(05):
06: -Assassin(01): Mobility
07: +Assassin(02):
08: -Shadowdancer(01)
09: Shadowdancer(02): Stealthy
10: Shadowdancer(03)
11: Shadowdancer(04)
12: Shadowdancer(05): SF:Hide
13: Shadowdancer(06)
14: Assassin(03):
15: Assassin(04): WFocus: Kama
16: -Assassin(05):
17: +Assassin(06):
18: Assassin(07): Blind Fight
19: Assassin(08):
20: +Monk(06):
21: Assassin(09): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Assassin(10):
23: Assassin(11):
24: Assassin(12): ESkF:Hide DEX=25
25: Assassin(13):
26: Assassin(14): Imp Ev
27: Assassin(15): Epic Dodge
28: Assassin(16): DEX=26

Hide 110
Saves 13 20 13
HP 192/220
AC 61 [10 base, 14 dex, 5 armor, 5 boots, 4 def, 4 nat, 6 tumble, 1 dodge, 6 monk, 1 monk, 4 haste, 1 ma]
AB 39 +4 kama/41 +6 gloves
Flat AC 39
Skills 256

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Mark it zero!

16 assassin, no epic dodge, no murder, no late-level monk so no discipline.

That's pretty bad.

Consider 6 monk 6 sd 18 assassin instead. Take 5 monk pre epic and level 30 as a monk for your discipline dump. take sd whenever. consider putting it through a calculator so you know what exactly to take pre-epic so you can get the most saves.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Kobold rogue. I will give a full build spread with one caveat:
If you're not evil I'll literally add wizard levels to this to decrease its HP and AB.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

Mate please, "that's pretty bad"? This happens to be one of the best assassin builds for drow, and while i did say i'm posting it only as an example to work from there, comments like yours are not very constructive especially since you haven't bothered to read the sheet properly.



It does have Epic Dodge. It has 23 discipline. Murder is pointless for drow; a race without ecl penalties - sure go for it, but Kneecapper is still superior.

I played it, it's great. Please trust me on this.

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Mark it zero!

6 Ranger/ 6SD/ 18 Assassin is probably your best bet for 16BAB at level 20 (Gives 4 attacks per round)

Only issue is you wont be able to select Imp. 2 weapon fighting due to Rangers dual wield not counting.

you're missing an epic feat, down 2 save dc's for your attacks, are missing murder, and you don't have 30+ disc.

it's not great. it's lousy.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Who in their god forsaken right mind would ever make a Kobold Rogue anything higher than Lawful Evil? I clearly planned on going Evil though as I said I really want to go Assassin, which has an alignment prerequisite...

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Montolio Dante Mardello
Rogue TBD

Excellent.

Quick question for curiosity, before I ship the build your way; of the three classes, which two would you say you 'MOST' want to keep if you have to pick?

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

I'd probably have to go with Assassin.

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Montolio Dante Mardello
Rogue TBD

Your cognitive reasoning is lousy.

You're picking a fight over optimization for an example ecl-2 build sheet vs level 30, so either you don't grasp the irrelevance of your argument, or are just plain trolling.

Feel free to copy the sheet, edit it and propose improvements, so you can begin becoming useful in this thread.

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Mark it zero!

Hey I appreciate your build. It looked fine to me! I had a question...

Why did you want the extra INT? Or what does INT boost for Assassin?

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Montolio Dante Mardello
Rogue TBD

assassin save dc's are int mod + assassin level + 10.

which is why 18, which gets you a death attack that goes through death immunity, is so good. the save is pretty high with 18+ assassin, and it adds another effect people have to roll against for you.

remember as an epic dodge dexer that one fishes, the longer a fight goes the more likely they will roll a one. high end pvp fights often last several minutes; I just watched one last night that went on for 9 irl minutes. when you have an attack that they have a 5% chance (or higher if they don't have a 35+ fort save which many don't) to just die to, they do often just drop dead.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

For assassins, you generally have INT builds and DEX builds.

DEX based assassins have high(er) AB, AC, get epic dodge, and that modifier for extra hide/ms. They're good in straight combat too.

INT based assassins have higher death attack DC, and skill points galore. They might run into trouble against targets with high saving throws.

Both have their niches, a DEX based one will be more able to handle standard combat while an INT based one is good for having every skill you need, and for more conventional assassination. They can run into trouble if pressed into regular combat or fight someone sneak attack immune. Typically I recommend these builds focus in a ranged weapon.

Ranger/SD/Assassin is better than rogue/SD/assassin, ranger gets the fourth attack and higher AB, though you will have to start with an 11 WIS minimum. It's hard to get IMPR two weapon fighting with this build, but it's generally better to use a shield regardless.

Ditching SD relaxes some of the requirements, allowing you to go 3/8/19 Monk/Fighter/Assasssin (Good for a dex build, with EWS and dual kamas it really racks up the damage), or you could go fighter/ranger/assassin (also gets EWS). Monk speed is real handy for a sneak build as well.

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I play:

So if you go INT strong then where are you getting the good Dex to have even a decent AC and stay in fights long enough to snag that c.5% chance of auto-killing? Or that Dex bonus to have your AB high enough to even land hits and get a chance at the percentage in the first place?

I think what I am gathering though is that Rogue/SD/Assassin isn't ideal. There needs to be a mix of fighter in there with either Monk or Ranger. However I don't see the point for Ranger since usually it's taken for dual weapon, yet it seems you need to achieve Imp Two Weap which will require taking the feats anyway so why not just go Monk for the speed?

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Montolio Dante Mardello
Rogue TBD

18 dex 14 int is ok.

also if you want to be a 'Stereotype Rogue' i'd recommend actually taking rogue in lieu of ranger/sd/ass.

i mean at 18 assassin you're a lot more assassin then rogue. is that what you want?

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Ranger is good for Assassin builds because:

- Has Hide/Move silently as class skills
- Has Full Base Attack(1 AB/Level)
- +4 Hide/MS in wilderness
- Allows you to dual-wield with 1 Ranger level.(Even if it lacks the second off-hand attack)

Now Monk has some good stuff too, like:

- Has Hide/Move Silently and Tumble as class skills(All that you need for Assassin & SD)
- Getting 5(+1 Flurry) attacks on main-hand without Full Base attack class(With Monk weapons)
- Monks get the most saves out of pre-epic levels(at epic class doesn't matter to saves)
- 10% Move speed increase per 3 levels(Good for chasing and fleeing)
- 1 AC/5 Monk and Wisdom modifier to AC(Capped at Monk level)
- Improved Knockdown for free at 6th level

Ranger has slightly higher AB, +4 Hide/Move Silently in wilderness and doesn't "lock" you in to Monk weapons(Monks also can't make use of shields), while Monk has slightly higher saves, scores you Improved Knockdown for free at 6th level, makes you faster and gives you bit more AC when you're not using a shield.

Every +1 INT modifier increases your Death Attack DC [on top of assassin level of course], so in this case the net was 10 base + 16 levels + 10 INT modifier = 36. For a drow this number is acceptable, but a level 30 character can potentially get to DC 38 with 18 assassin over 16, problem is you'll still need to get the same 18 base INT.

Notice how awkward the stat distribution is for that drow build. The 19'th point in DEX costed 3 points on creation (always best to avoid that), but it allowed to reach 26 DEX without GDex feats. For drow it was essential, for other races it's optional.

Main goal for assassin/sd builds is 26 DEX or more [25 for Epic Dodge], high INT to increase Death Attack efficiency, and of course not too many dumping on other stats (e.g. 10 WIS lets you max Monk AC bonus to +6).

Chultan example:
STR 10
DEX 17 +2 [19+7=26]
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 11
CHA 08 -2 [06]

Kobold however... not sure how it works exactly, i assume additional -2 STR over halfling?
STR 12 -2 [10]
DEX 18 [18+7+1=26] need to take "GDex I"
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 08


So let's say it's a monk6/sd6/assassin18 in both cases - they have 2 more epic feats (one is consumed by GDex I for kobold).

Point is, Death Attack DC is only going to be +1 (37) over the drow build (36) - not a huge difference. In both cases it's potentially worth it to drop INT by 2, which will net you 4 points to distribute on character creation. That can for example translate to +60 HP with 14 CON.



Bottom line is, assassin/sd is best served with monk due to the ability to get 3 attacks on the first flurry with more ease (not to mention all the other benefits like +7 "natural" AC, free IKD, +20% speed etc.) - if you don't have that, your Death Attack is 33% weaker. How you go about optimizing the build is another thing, because there's always a bunch of ways to minmax conservatively for a well-rounded pool of benefits, rather than chasing top scores like some folks might suggest.



Anyway, too much ranting, let me summarize.
Ass/SD best trick is 3 Death Attacks out of stealth vs a flat-footed opponent. Without monk you can only get that with Improved Two Weapon Fighting done with 4 levels of a full BAB class pre-epic, which is very costly, and none of those classes will give you anywhere near the benefits of 6 monk levels. With monk, you just need one weapon - activate Flurry of Blows, drink Haste and... voilla.

Speaking of Kobolds, i believe trying to dual wield kamas will actually net -4 AB for main hand, due to size, which is why Monk works best in this case.


So i suppose, this is the kobold build i'd propose.

STR 12 -2 [10]
DEX 18 [+7+1=26]
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08

01: -Monk(01): Dodge
02: Monk(02):
03: Monk(03): WFinesse
04: Monk(04):
05: -Monk(05):
06: -Assassin(01): Mobility
07: +Assassin(02):
08: -Shadowdancer(01)
09: Shadowdancer(02): Stealthy
10: Shadowdancer(03)
11: Shadowdancer(04)
12: Shadowdancer(05): SF:Hide
13: Shadowdancer(06)
14: Assassin(03):
15: Assassin(04): WFocus: Kama
16: -Assassin(05):
17: +Assassin(06):
18: Assassin(07): Blind Fight
19: Assassin(08):
20: +Monk(06):
21: Assassin(09): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Assassin(10):
23: Assassin(11):
24: Assassin(12): GDex I
25: Assassin(13):
26: Assassin(14): Imp Ev
27: Assassin(15): Epic Dodge
28: Assassin(16):
29: Assassin(17):
30: Assassin(18): ESkF:Hide, *
*ESkF:MS, Spot or Discipline, Epic Prowess, dunno just pick an epic feat. You can even take Crippling Strike but would need to use an item with Sneak Attack property.

16 21 14
DA 9d6 DC 36
HP 264
AB 40 (+4 kama, +12 DEX)
AC 61 (39 flat)
Skills 234
Hide 110 i believe

There you go, treat this as an example, there's still a dozen of things you can optimize about this build. I'll answer any further questions you might have.

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Mark it zero!

kobold is a small race so they can't duel wield small weapons (kamas) w/o penalties, and you can't use a shield and keep your monk ac bonus, so i guess I don't know what that build is besides 46 ac 'epic' dodger that doesn't have any good epic feats like armor skin and is missing discipline

also your race stats are wrong for kobold, it's -4 str and +2 dex.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Shot a build OP's way.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

Yes? I pointed that out in my previous post. The build is a single kama monk with 7 attacks per round.

Yes? Monks shouldn't use shields. This one gets +7 AC in return which is equivalent to a +5 medium shield. All is well.

AC 61 [10 base, 14 dex, 5 armor, 5 boots, 4 defl, 4 nat, 6 tumble, 1 dodge, 6 monk, 1 monk, 4 haste, 1 ma]

*

Look at level 30.

No. It has less discipline. My take on the matter is, that for a 61 AC, 110 Hide HiPS'ing Epic Dodger, Discipline is a secondary skill, and can always be increased via gear. What you're suggesting nets -1 AB and -1 to all saving throws.

They check out, i did the math. Maybe it's because i wrote it funny. In reality they get +2 DEX from Halfling, -2 STR from Halfling on character creation, and -2 STR from Kobold on subrace activation.

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Mark it zero!