Okay... I am no build monkey, and certainly no PVP expert. Hell, I'm no expert at all. So this brings me to something I've always wondered about.

Is discipline worth it?

Before you start tossing the rotten fruit and veggies... hear me out.

If the AB of a good warrior is like... 50 let's say, you'd need to have 71 discipline to guarantee they can't.... knock you down for a round or two. That's really about all it protects you from, well, that and disarm.

Now... they have to hit you first, with a standard attack minus the 4 AB for KD and the 6 for disarm, making the hit normally turn into a fishing tournament for 1's.

Sure, if you get KD'd in PVP, it can mean a win, but not always. In PVM, it's... ehh, hardly a worry really.

Here's my point: You have to use 33 skill points, and invest another 40 or so points through gear to achieve "good" discipline. That's a HUGE investment.

Now, before you tell me that 50 discipline is worth it, I'm going to disagree. No, 50 discipline vs a 50 AB means if they hit you, they will KD you, and.. they WILL hit you. The way I see the math, you either max out discipline or you forget it.

Am I missing something? I'm not trying to be an ass, I really want to know. Most times when I've asked people why discipline is so important, I get this response, "Oh, if you're a warrior type, you HAVE to have it.". No explanation.

Discuss!

true strike pot gets you like +15 - +20 to hit, so ts+ikd = dc 60 or 70+1d20 disc check or you lose the fight.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Ok, that really only adds to my argument. Numbers that high are nigh impossible without dedicating everything to discipline... now we're talking extra feats too.

33 base skill
Con bonus... ehh, lets say you manage 6?
Skill focus +3
Epic skill focus +10
50 from gear

That's 102. Sure, you -can- get a bit more if you had more CON.

All that "in case" of a TS potion? Seems extreme to me.

What you just said is the reason +30 discipline gloves are essentially mandatory in pvp and thus should be available for sale.

10 from a helm you can buy from a store
30 from epic gloves you have to pay out the ass for
33 from skill ranks

add in skill focus and epic skill focus and you basically can't lose, but that's not required at all really.

also you can get 100 ts pots for like 15k gold so yeah people (like me) order them by the 100.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Personally I dont usually play fighter types characters. So if I can get discipline in the build I take it. Especially with casters, where I dont want to be killed off by spam of knockdowns.

Otherwise - maybe flat footed situations? Lucky roll 20 knockdowns (20 over AC, with no discipline, you go down, opponent gains advantage etc.).

Discipline is also STRENGTH skill. Not constitution as you wrote. That means that average meathead will get discipline more or less the same as AB of average meathead (45-50?) without gear. I dont know how much discipline you get from normal gear, but I guess you can mythal some on.

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Zendaer Amattis
Torgon Crimsonshade
Khalid Athanalo
CET time zone

*shrug* I hear all that, but... I just don't see how it's -that- important.

Let me give you my experience with it:

I've played on Amia for about 6 years, and yes, I've been involved with factions, etc.

In PVM, I've never been KD'd in a situation that caused me to die.

I've not done a lot of PVP, but I have duelled a lot. On one of my char's I have 90+ discipline. Then again, he's hard to hit too, so did that even matter? Anyway, Tristen, that's the character has been dev-critted during duels (that 1 in a bazillion chance since his fort is over 40), and still won. Even Ally, my monk who doesn't have a lot of discipline gear did the same once.

I guess I just don't see why it's so important to -not- get KD'd on that off chance it could happen. I mean, properly set up and properly played, you're generally fishing for 1's to hit a person, so... same for a KD? Then if you do get them down, you get a bonus to hit, but still... have to hit them!

For casters, I agree, discipline make sense since that could mean life or death. But, a 500 hp WM getting KD'd isn't such a big deal since... they get back up and will hit you back.

Please though, what am I misssing? Sure, people have tons of TS potions *shrug*, it's 9 seconds. All you have to do is keep out of melee range for 9 seconds. And... TS doesn't add a blanket 20. It's part of the +20 cap, so your sheet lies, badly. Use Aid, bless, warcry, battletide, any + enhancement on a weapon and that 20 goes down. Sure, it's something and it's powerful, but... it's not as overpowering as people think.

You can chain knockdowns too, and when some of the current power builds have 7d6 sneak you tend to die in one or two. Thats just how it goes.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Moved this over to the build forum.



50 discipline vs 50 AB means you have a crapshoot at getting knocked over, because the DC of the Discipline check is the modified total result of the attack roll plus or minus any modifiers - so assuming IKD on medium target to medium target you're looking at a +46 attack roll, but +4 for IKD's size increase. Say they roll a 10. 60. You now make a discipline skill check (d20 + discipline) against 60.



They're not mandatory. You think they're mandatory because you conflate direct PvP to be the most important thing in the entire game, parroting it endlessly and insulting the people who get shit and got shit done for actual literal RL years with villains, nemeses, allies, and third parties without ever actually hostiling and giving someone the left click. You're wrong. Getting knocked down once, depending on who your fighting against, also does not mean you lose the fight, as knockdown is going to last about 2 flurries from your opponent - and if it's the high attack flurry, the only one you have to worry about is their -10 to -20 attacks. It's still not good and your ass is still on the ground, but if you're something like a barbarian or a low dex cleric you basically do not care about being knocked down because all your AC minus like 5-6 of it doesn't go away anyways.

In most practical situations a True Strike is going to get you +16 to hit, or +15 if you're using a +5 weapon. It's going to get you less the more you buff beforehand. The only way to get +20 from True Strike is to be unbuffed and weilding a mundane weapon. Doesn't happen.

On a more practical level: The best way to avoid getting knocked down is to simply not get hit. This means dex characters and some casters have it pretty good, because it doesn't matter what they roll if 50% of their rolls whiff, you have epic dodge, and your sitting AC is about 65. If people bring True Strike into the argument, then the answer is thus: People only drink two potions in melee in PvP. Those potions are Heal and True Strike. If soeone goes into the very obvious potion drinking animation, often preluded by the stopping of swinging for a few moments if they mistime it, then you know they're going to be doing one of those things. If they are not about to die, they are drinking a True Strike. Disengage. True strike lasts exactly 9 seconds and has a large purple plume over the head when cast, and when it wears off, creates a large yellow spark. These are IC. Watch for them.

All of this said: Is Discipline worth it? Yes. It is. I you can fit it in your build, take it. Because although I spent a paragraph talking about how PvP isn't the end all, at the end of the day it's pretty probable that you're going to come into conflict with people, and in a game like NWN there's only so many builds you can have. Knockdown is going to be pretty common. If you're an STR build 45-50 Discipline comes without gear, and with one item giving you +10 you can comfortably sit at +60. There are buyable gloves that will give you +8 that are just as mythallable as the epic drop ones, and other various very great rings in slot can give you 3 to 5. The gloves are not as mandatory as Commie says they are, PvP can be important, but it's not as important as Commie says it is, and the gloves do not need to be for sale in the shop, just like none of the +30 gloves need to be, because except for the +30 perform goves for bards, they are all luxuries. Bards only get a pass because their entire class's point revolves around making a skill check, and even then, oyu only need 100 if you're a level 30 bard. If you're 25, you only need 75, and if you're 20, you only need 50, both of which are totally doable without the gloves. Even the 100 is, with some creative gearing - you can wear the gear, bard song, then take it off if you need to.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Thanks Tormak, great explanation.

Generally speaking! And in my opinion. Disc is usually worth it, if you can afford it. Unless you're rolling a STR build. Then I'd say it's a must. Because I figure:

33 base
12-15 from str mod
10 helmet
10 ESF (maybe)
-----
65-68!

That's pretty good. You got a chance of resisting a lot of it. But even as anything else, it's not bad. I think it's safe to say most dexers don't get ESF: disc. Sure some might! But most can't afford it, since they're trying to get edodge (which effectively lowers IKD dc by 5, or more).

So a dexer gets

32-33 base
0-5 str mod
10 helmet
-----
42-48


From here, assuming you know what you're about to fight, you can mythal up some gear. Put +5 disc on armor, rings 1 and 2, ammy, boots, cloak. That's 30 more disc right there. And if you've got edodge, you take away the first strike that'd hit you (which usually is the first hit in the flurry, making it -5ab/disc check). Of course that's not always an option, especially in a fight with various types of enemies. B/c if there's a mage around, it's safer to have saves gear on, with a heavy focus on fortitude (IMO). Unless you're an outsider. Then you pray they don't know you're one.

So what else you can do. . . ! If you see someone us a TS pot, kite it out. If you have any way to avoid even getting hit by them, avoid it(kite, hips, GS, haven, monk speed)!

Wild card move!: Let's put a CD on KD/IKD! 1 use/round? or a 2-3 round CD after a successful KD? Prolly gonna be a BIG FAT no from almost everyone. But I ask. Have you felt the seething salt pouring out of your eyes when someone's using 6-10(double kama monks) IKDs on you per round? At that rate, it's just a game of statistics.

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so he would always have a friend

Yeah also keep in mind as a primary dota/fighting game guy I value mobility and cc avoidance a lot.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

I would say its only worth taking discipline if you are building for PvP. Otherwise its a waste of skill points if you would rather invest in other more useful PvM or RP skills. I've been playing my main for several years who is a warrior type with full discipline and have only PvPed once or twice (and both times discipline never came into the fight). So in terms of investment in the lifetime of the character it was a bad investment since its hardly needed in PvM or RP. I've come across far more scenarios where other skills, which he doesn't have due to loading most points to discipline, would have been far more useful.

That said if you look at discipline outside of its NWN mechanical uses, it makes RP sense for a soldierly type PC to have high discipline as a reflection of their martial training and how they maintain their composure in combat situations. Whereas, a barbarian may have low disipline when it comes to combat. Not sure if DMs ever use discipline rolls during events for certain situations.

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aaegus battlehammer™

cloak rockhewer

murtaugh gunn

My personal opinion is the only two skills you need at 33 or 30 are discipline and tumble (in that order). Anything else you can essentially get by other means or doesn't hurt your characters 'mechanical' functionality by not having it.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Man it'd sure be nice if an unarmed monk could get discipline worth a damn. Gosh it'd sure be nice if they're gloves were worth a toss.

Hrm, what trope is it in action movies who's pretty much impossible to knockdown in hand-to-hand combat even? *thinks*

Oh well... Can't even put keen (impact) on a damned monk glove.

(And yes, Discipline *is* worth it. If your character's story hinges on success, it's worth it. Will it be that important everyday? Probably not. But you'd be surprised at the builds I've made that would end most builds in 2 flurries.)

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)