In a recent storyline I was involved in an unborn child was killed in a pvp event. I say event because it was premeditated and RP was done prior to ensure others knew it happened. I am not requesting that anything in that event be retconned or anything like that, but I want to take a look at whether, or how this should be allowed in the future. Child characters are restricted from play because of the negative connotations that come with RP in Amia. It is also stated that graphic torture is not allowed. A shame that totally happens on almost a daily basis, though with player consent. That being said, I believe any further baby murder should be consented upon by all parties before it is allowed. I don't think being evil should be consequence free, but I think you should at least be given the option to choose to or not to turn your hard earned character into a full blown baby eating monster. Again I want to state, this isn't a slam, its simply a request to look at a rule on a subject that may make people very uncomfortable. There are many such as myself that have lost children during various stages of pregnancy that don't enjoy revisiting that experience for others recreation.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

Sign

Also it's worse when you 'don't know' because you don't read everyone's descriptions enough time to know they are suddenly showing and thus do the thing with no real way to know.

I understand it's realistic. It doesn't mean it's fun or should be a thing on Amia.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

It isn't allowed to perma-kill a character without the other players consent. That includes their children, babies, unborn children which are still played by that player to that point. That includes DM who also almost never would kill an infant/unborn child unless it is explicitly requested by the character in question (and even then many DM would say no it, like me)

That said you also prolly shouldn't run around in the wilds and fight while playing pregnent or having a baby along.

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Invincible children break my immersion.


This is Amia's rule and each situation ought to be evaluated on a case-to-case basis.

I'd argue this should happen more often.



Probably shouldn't, I think you mean.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Yes I meant shouldn't of course! Fixed it.

Other things you def. shouldn't do while pregnant are shapeshifting and shadowjumping. <.<

Anyways, you still cannot rule on your own you permakilled someones child.

Which is already in the rules technically.

Either under

1. You cannot kill another player's character without player consent (or in very rare cases DM consent)

2. You cannot kill an NPC (that isn't a random mob somewhere) without DM consent.

Wether you count the child as a "secondary" character of the mother/fathers player or as an NPC, one of these rules apply that rule it out to do without consent of said player or a DM.

The same by the way goes for simply RPing you perma someones familiar/companion without consent of the player or a DM.

I can already tell you you do not need to approach me as a DM for such RP. I neither will supervise nor consent to baby murder with or without player consent. It is one of my "won't touch with a 9-foot pole" topics that ALWAYS lead to excessive drama.

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Being an adventurer with a child should come with risks and consequences. No need to make the RP graphic or gross, but...yeah. Amia's notoriously prone to random apocalypse, so even trying to start a family there is pretty ICly irresponsible

I just want to mention that all the people involved in this, I consider friends. I hope that we can solidify some ground rules to improve and enrich the gaming environment.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

Yes. This doesn't happen without mutual consent. Just like you can't randomly make someone a child murderer 'without being given the option', they can't kill your kid without giving you the same option. So if you ever believe it is one-sided and against someone's choices, I believe you're utterly uninformed. Children, along with animals, have consistently been 'unraisable' and such has been further enforced over similar situations. Including this one. And imho, this is a logical, fair, and known ruling. So it comes back to the first point.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

If you're knocked up, please be more obvious. I agree with ama when she says



because here we are.

But I'm putting that 'event' behind me and not doing anything with it anymore. I never got asked for consent and didn't find out until after. If I had got asked I'd have said no.

Frankly I'm just done dealing with it. No amount of mental gymnastics or ic justification are making it feel ok with me OOC. So yeah. I'm done with it.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Your character didn't kill anyone, thus you weren't communicated. People RP it as openly or not as they wish; and the appropriate people are still informed oocly. It's still a matter of consent. I'm pretty sure we're all done with it, tbf.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

I don't think the situation is as cut and dry as Sammy claims it is.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I noticed that there were more OOC feelings involved which reflected and filtered back into IC. The RP felt forced and strangely manipulated every time the topic came up from a third person's perspective. I won't give any specific examples but you can just tell consent was not enough between those involved, others would join in and be affected by it. Honestly, I don't think this kind of rp should happen at all- it leads to excessive drama as Amarice puts it.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

Im not going to ~pretend~ to know what a pregnancy feels like ic or ig or irl, but if you're character is preggo do the server a favor and put "THIS CHARACTER LOOKS PREGNANT" at the top of your bio, put a couple of line breaks, and then the rest of your description.

so the rest of us can know not to actually fuck with that.

but it's done. dealing with ic consequences. In the future, im forever blanket not consenting to child murder or abortion-by-murder rp. official notice. don't put me here again.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

To be fair; most pregnant women don't even look pregnant until much later into their term. 1-2 months isn't going to show many, if any, obvious signs.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

yeah well time is fluid here. i don't expect someone to sit there for nine irl months because they want a baby ic. if they want to do the dirty and poop out a kid 1 week later idgaf. don't think anyone else does either.

i just don't want to be in that situation again. things that are really really really disturbing to people should be foretasted ahead of time ooc, clearly ooc communication too, so you can 'sign the contract' of consent.

i think child murder is on that list.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

i was there. please communicate with all involved. just like a pnp spell, you don't need permission from JUST the person you're doing it to, but everyone involved. i'd have even dragged the father's player in ooc and asked.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Getting to the OP and avoiding the situation that is being mentioned here. I was not a part of it, so anything I have heard or seen or been told IC or OOC is not really valid here and would be supposition and hearsay at this point. This is a touchy subject for many people, and it should be so. So should any kind of killing, for that matter. It is okay to kill the woman but not okay to kill the unborn child of said woman sounds a bit picky in my eyes ... not that there is not a difference for some people, I'm not saying that. I'm just stating my personal opinions in this post. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I won't really be defending mine, as why I think and feel the way I do are not on the chopping block here.

First off, I think the idea of getting consent from all peoples involved like PnP spells is a good idea. However, should people not be directly involved in the actually killing [i.e in the same room actively rolplaying in the situation], I do not think they should be. The following is an example of my thinking:

Next note: Pregnancy! Gotta love it, gotta hate it. I was a mother twice, I understand the trials and links to both good and bad experiences with it. I do not think it should be done away with, cause it can be a wonderful and roleplay enriching situation. I do not think anyone should be forced to put in their BIO OOC statements to it, however. Yes, for some time many women don't show, or don't even know themselves they are pregnant and therefore others would not either; this is why we have healers and physicians and folk who specialize in this sort of thing. If I had a character that was newly pregnant I would feel very irritated that everyone around her "magically knew" it ooc, to me it is metagaming of the highest sort. Further into pregnancy there is a state where it is visible but can be hidden by clothing; then there is obviously visually pregnant. Each stage should totally be roleplayed by the mother, as in a helluva lot of roleplay, it is a very huge life change. If a person who is interacting with the mother IG and doesn't have the time to pay attention to her emotes, then maybe they don't have the time to kill her either, but momma needs to emote emote emote.

That being said... obviously pregnant women should definitely not shapeshift, shadow jump, or go into the wilds without escort unless they are accepting the chance of something disastrous happening to their child! These kind of things are no brainers to us, but some characters have low wisdom scores and are complete idiots.

I believe this kind of roleplay should be heavily screenshotted should a situation arise where someone is killing another person, pregnant or not. This may not lay to rest ooc grievances but it really helps on the way to deciding a just and fair outcome. Of course this is best with a DM present client side, but they are very busy people so it is up to us to document. Yes... it is sometimes very busy at such times, we're hella tired and forgetful; but it is up to both sides to do it. This is roleplay, it is interaction. It is never supposed to be one-sided. You can both take a moment OOC to screenie; if one side is not willing to do so ... request to postpone the outcome until you -do- have a DM client side.

What are the consequences of killing? You may be found out to be a killer. These are IC consequences and reactions that anyone who engages in this kind of roleplay shall have to deal with. This stuff should be gritty and uncomfortable no matter the breadth of the roleplay. Killing and torture and affecting anyone else in an overtly evil is something that I believe should definitely have repercussions not just on the victim but the person or persons responsible. In the example above, everyone who finds out about it should definitely hate the Drow involved, as they did an evil thing! Or if they are evil, they may give the Drow props. Dedicate yourself to this, and accept the IC consequences please.

Lastly ... we are here for roleplay. For fun. To enjoy ourselves in alternate lives and interact with others. Try to keep that in mind when shit hits the fan IC or OOC and remember, it's just a game.

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Its me. You know it.

There's a mondo difference between assassin rp and baby killing.

My statement stands. Dont put me in that spot. Blanket here; if you're preggo and I kill or do something related to your death, or even do something that might affect the baby negatively, don't even ask me, I'm OOC refusing consent. Forever.

If you wanna harass Pitt about shit that he did feel free. But he's more tired of it ic then I am ooc.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Oh and P. S. This has gone on top long for an eratta or change. Keep it dead. Reviving the babby now cheapens the whole thing.

Just never again.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

No one's changing anything. It's all more or less seen a conclusion IC, so this topic is just providing a medium to drawl the uncomfortable circumstance on. Though I'm sure that wasn't the meaning of it.

Sorry for the misunderstandings, I don't think any of you are bad people. I don't believe anyone purposefully tried to decieve anyone (OOCly). But what happened has happened. And it is what it is. I'm keeping IC as in IC and I expect you all to do the same from this point on.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

Yeah dear you're fine. Like I've told you and pretty much everyone ever, if I actually have an issue with something you did, I'll let you know. Trust me.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

No one is or should be playing the blame game here. I was asking for a clearly defined set of rules for this sort of R.P.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

It requires consent as Amarice said. True resurrection requires DM supervision, in the case of Mia, I was the supervising DM. The end of the pregnancy was our mutual decision because it made more sense. That is how it went down.
Please keep it IC, nobody is being blamed OOCly.

Amarice summed it up here for you well. Not much more to be said. If you don't want to be involved in that RP, you should likely underline that clearly as possible, as soon as possible. If you've already killed someone before the decision is reached, there is still communication between parties and a mutual consensus. The PC can choose for themselves whether or not they accept the case (whether it be baby killing, mutilation, scarring, descaling, dewinging, other examples of permanent mental or physical scarring), if the other proposes it. If either party would rather it not happen, they should again underline that as clearly as possible, as soon as possible.

As with any other PvP case, you must provide ample opportunity of RP beforehand as well as an out. If you don't respect this need for RP beforehand, then you should likely square things out as soon as you possibly can immediately after the fact. Lest you end up with a case like this one.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

I'll just post this again here in case someone wants to bring it up with me ooc why I allowed it.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Yes, and along that vein, please don't bother people OOCly when they clearly don't want to deal with a situation anymore. For example, don't contact Commie over the dispute as he has clearly stated he's done with its mentioning. As well as myself. I'm only here to square away any lingering questions for the rules bit.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

I wasn't made aware of her pregnancy till after the fact, nor would I have done it if I had known, but that isn't what's important to me.

What is important to me is that people I consider my friends bearing the stress and frustration of the aftermath. It permeates every we do and speak about and I want to put it past us.

It's a game and I believe it has gone beyond making people "uncomfortable" into a different beast entirely.

So I would ask that people respect that and understand that we wash our hands of it

I said I wasn't going to post again but I have to. Before I said this;



Well, even during my 2 weeks off I was getting messages from outside the game about people bringing up both my characters and my playername in debates about continuing to push the 'baby murder/infanticide' issue again. People are getting into ooc arguments about it on my behalf. I don't want that. Despite finding the whole mess morally abhorrent to the extent that it makes me physically uncomfortable, its pretty clear my RP preferences on infanticide are causing friction, even when I'm not actually in the game. So to those of you who stuck up for me while I was gone, I thank you, but don't do it anymore.

Frankly, my not wanting to be a part of something is causing issues between people that aren't me. So just don't remind people I said I don't want any part of this anymore. They are going to do it anyway and I have no choice but to lie here and just let it happen. Again, I thank those of you that took it upon yourselves to remind people of the situation, flat out telling people I was unknowingly put in to the whole mess and unable to give consent, but really, it's not stopping, even though I want it to, it didn't stop even when I wasn't here (I actually had ppl telling me convos were still going on), so there's just no point in asking anymore.

Therefore I retract my request that people respect my ooc rp preferences on infanticide. It's more trouble then it's worth and it's causing drama. I'm just going to act like I should have all along; it happened and I'm going to act as such.

Children, babies, and pregnant women are back on the table because despite my requests they were never 'off' the table. I just don't really care anymore. Keep it ic going forward, no reason to go ooc about this event ever again.

editing this in;



I don't care what anyone does regarding this anymore. Do whatever. I concede.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

I admit, haven't read every post on here, i'll go back tomorrow and comb though it, dead tired right now bout to crash, but i have seen posts like this before. Amia is a Fantasy world based off of Forgotten Realms... i sometimes think folks have a hard time separating RL from a fantasy environment. We tend to take shit personal from our past experiences...when we should be coming here to escape them. I'm no Angel, but i try to roll with the punches. This is a game.

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Deacon Lott-Merchant

This is back? Good LORD.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

When I was gone I had people telling me people were arguing about it, still, again. The fact I was gone for 2 weeks and it still managed to find its way to me 3/4 times means it's never going to end so i'm done trying to force my rp preferences on a community that doesn't want them.

This is likely going to be one of my last OOC posts on Amia, but I felt like I needed to make it as people were arguing on my behalf or getting into ooc arguments because of my RP preferences. So I'm just culling it.

That's it, it's done, no more posts needed. Thanks again to those who tried.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Just add a ruling that raise dead raises the baby as well and you lose all the drama dude.

Or better yet stop role playing pregnancies, it's just 9 months of you playing a floating trigger warning anyway.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!