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Shadowjump's current prerequisute is stupid. Blackguards get an NPC, though I realize as the worst class in NWN blackguard is not a fair determining factor. But to be honest, if a shadowdancer takes enough levels to warrent a shadowjump widget, they should just be able to learn it form the NPCs in the academy instead of having to post pointless, conveluted requests with really, incredibly boring lessons from anatida or the current grand master that are basically copy pasted. Shadow dancer stuff shouldn't be an academic process, it's a physical ability and not something like a wizard who has to study for years and years. This is a rogue class, not a magic class. I know amia wants to create in depth lore based on player written nonsense but making shadowjump request only does honestly create a division between people who are friends with the current grandmaster (previously anatida) and those who are not. Stop allowing for this division and make it an actual class feature.

So tl;dr: Having to learn physics to shadowjump is stupid, it's a physical activity and not a mental one. Stop it. Bad amia. Stop that. *squirts with a spray bottle* Do what blackguards do and make an NPC reward it for levels. There. I said it.

i disagree because learning to use shadowjump requires ooc instruction that machine-gun-clicking through an npc trainer won't teach.

it's one of the few examples of consistent class-based roleplay ON the server and I think it's sort of a shame MORE classes don't have cool shit like this.

I'll teach any onnnnnne

Any Sd with 10 or more levels can teach shadow jump. Don't insult players in your suggestions, thanks.

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i disagree because learning to use shadowjump requires ooc instruction that machine-gun-clicking through an npc trainer won't teach.

Bingo.

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it's one of the few examples of consistent class-based roleplay ON the server and I think it's sort of a shame MORE classes don't have cool shit like this.

A+

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Shadow dancer stuff shouldn't be an academic process, it's a physical ability and not something like a wizard who has to study for years and years. This is a rogue class, not a magic class.

Wrong. It's literally supernatural abilities tied to the Plane of Shadow.

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I know amia wants to create in depth lore based on player written nonsense but making shadowjump request only does honestly create a division between people who are friends with the current grandmaster (previously anatida) and those who are not. Stop allowing for this division and make it an actual class feature.

Since any level 10 Sd with Shadowjump can teach Shadowjump, it is impossible for this ability to be restricted to any clique since literally any SD 10 that wnats to teach it to you can teach it to you. This is your only warning, if you shittalk player sin your suggestions, you're just going to be banned from Improving Amia.

I feel partially responsible for this - I was whining to Bob in Skype today about the necessity for OOC instruction of Shadowjump, which has made it, for me, kind of a chore to get the ability that I've wanted for so long.

I also griped about homebrew lore a little bit, but to be honest, the lesson I got from PassionateShadow (and a bit from Vega Shadowfoot) was pretty great, there were a couple parts I honestly was like "wait what?" but overall I enjoyed how information-dense it was and straight-to-the-point it was. I did mention to Bob that it was a pretty good lesson. It's just a personal thing I have against homebrew lore that isn't out there and easy to find. I think, actually, that's my real gripe; that the Shadowdancer textbook was not up to date with the lore I was taught. Some parts were only partially correct, some parts were omitted, etc. But it was a good lesson overall. I was just caught off-guard by some parts of it and I bitched in Skype about the lore being kind of obscure.

So I am sorry I shittalked to Bob in Skype and kind of encouraged him to make this post. I bitch all the time about stuff that isn't 100% my way; not because anybody is at fault, but because I just bitch a lot. A lot of it is joking in nature. I didn't mean for this to be made into something that would hurt others.

Please accept my apologies and hearts, everybody.

<333333

yeah i figured it was your duder that was the genesis of this.

while normally i don't think ppl have an issue tracking down a trainer, i think the issue was more with that specific characters activities, appearance (do you still constantly hold two knives out all the time?) and possible affiliations that made most trainers reluctant to teach or be alone with. it was for me at least, but I did tell you that when you mentioned it.

it's all good though.

I don't think that I have ever been insulted so many times in one post. Fortunately, Tormak covered it pretty well so I will still my fingers on the matter other than to say, stop making stupid generalizations about other people (and not just me) that you clearly have no real knowledge of.

Stop it. Bad amia bob. Stop that. *squirts with a spray bottle*

Last edited by MisterLich on Sat, Jul 16 2016, 22:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

The drama aside, I do think it's worthwhile to discuss why we have Shadowjump be such an anomaly in regards to how it's obtained, versus other class abilities on Amia.

The Pale Master bone arm enhancements are not OOC requests.
The Barbarian rages are not OOC requests.

Why is Shadowdance, and does it need to stay that way?

Anatida is right. OP please refrain from insulting other players' RP even if you don't mean it. You know better. Thank you.

MisterLich wrote:

The insults aside, I do think it's worthwhile to discuss why we have Shadowjump be such an anomaly in regards to how it's obtained, versus other class abilities on Amia.

The Pale Master bone arm enhancements are not OOC requests.
The Barbarian rages are not OOC requests.

Why is Shadowdance, and does it need to stay that way?

HIPS or Shadow Summon is also not OOC requested.

I do like the idea of NPC teachers though. Mechanics that would make players react in conversation exist and it would help for example people from Europe (at least my friend gave up after 6+ months of searching for teacher, I gave up even before trying to look for one).

Right, I like the idea of NPC teachers. You could even have the shadowscape academy instructors quiz players like they currently do (I think?), add some more fluff text to the textbook and add one more quiz just to shake things up, and if someone passes all the quizzes and has 6 SD levels, they can get the shadowjump widget. That's just an idea though.

I see lots of comparisons of apples and oranges. There are other abilities, such as monkey grip, that also have to be taught by a PC. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but I feel like there are others. There was talk quite a while back about utilizing NPC teachers for Shadow Jump, but it was nayed. I don't know what the current environment/thoughts from the staff are on it.

i think it's a really bad idea for reasons i stated above. the skill is, ig, teleport anywhere. just putting a blurb in an npc text box would mean nobody would read.

seriously, it's not that hard to find people to do these things and get taught, properly. it's even less hard to sign up for a class.

send a pm, get someones ooc schedule and plan a meetup together. you don't even need a classroom last time i taught someone we just used the bridge by winya and did the whole instruction there.

I agree with you Commie.

There are a lot of people out there who would teach really. I've seen lots of people post "looking for a teacher", and I've seen responses, but.. the OP never replied. I agree with Commie though, this needs to not change.

Reason being is it requires a bit more knowledge on the players part as with Flight monkey grip and shadow jump they are a bit more involved with how they should be preformed and what yields the best results in rp. It's good to be able to explain how or why something works and the best way to do that and get the limitations across is via role-play.

Awesomness for free..... *sigh* please please ....no. Just no........sheesh.....

"But it's hard to find a teacher...." I know....

It's not that hard...

Also...even if you did have an NPC to teach it, how many people are going to read through all the text that the NPC says IG? Alot of people just click through things, next next next just to get it done. Then you have people with it that don't follow the rules because they didn't read any of the instructions.

Nalkanar wrote:

... Mechanics that would make players react in conversation exist ...

Nalkanar wrote:

... Mechanics that would make players react in conversation exist ...

yeah i've seen those. the sd npc teachers use them.

people still skip them. when i teach people sd stuff, often they literally don't know why they can't jump through doors and shit or think they can jump on the shadowplane DESPITE this being in those NPC 'tests' they have ic proof they passed.

Eh. The OP's idea has plenty of merit for many reasons though. Here's the argument for all extra class modifications, really:

1. It's really silly to require extra hoops to jump through for some class abilities and not others.
It's a class ability. It's not Monkey Grip, a custom spell or feat. We don't require Weapon masters to screenshot a wall of text with another weapon master player when they hit WM1, 5 and 7. It's just goofy and inconsistent to arbitrarily decree I can get A by talking to an NPC, but for B I gotta jump through 9 (pointless) flaming hoops over when they're both just class abilities.
2. It's an ability with zero canon lore (in shadowjump's case). Seriously, you cannot "properly" train something that's been limited to 3 sentences of purely OOC mechanical text in the books. It's all player-made bunkum and those players don't know anymore than you do about it.
3. Perhaps the biggest fail of this system is the logistics of it. NWN is a slowly dying game over time. Playercount ebbs and flows. Anytime you tie things purely to player interaction, you're ensuring that inevitably those things will reach the point they no longer work. If every SD player just lost interest and stopped logging in, what are you going to do about it? Ever try to get DM interaction at 3 AM? Good luck. (Heck, you're lucky if you can find another player at 3 AM.) And so on and so forth. Eventually, Amia will reach the point where even in peak times things that hinge purely on human interaction will no longer be doable. It's then the systems break down, which is a flaw in game design.

IMO, it's wise to code everything under "Classes and Feats" purely mechanically just for reality's sake.

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2. It's an ability with zero canon lore (in shadowjump's case). Seriously, you cannot "properly" train something that's been limited to 3 sentences of purely OOC mechanical text in the books. It's all player-made bunkum and those players don't know anymore than you do about it.

There's a shitload of stuff with zero canon lore. The solution then is to forever render it as a useless mechanical trinket and never bother to expand the RP after a RL decade? No, that's the bullshit. There's no reason not to expand it and establish roleplay and lore behind it so that everyone has a better time RPing the class and a better understanding of what it does and how it works and how it can be RP'ed. This is how characters can distinguish themselves beyond simple mechanics in NWN, since we're limited to far less than what PnP has to offer.

PS: I'm biased because I helped invent shadow jump and the three steps academy but to call it all useless bullshit and say we're ignorant is pretty fucking insulting to everyone who put in work over the years to make Shadowdancer more than "The HIPS class".

Ironically, the insulting attitude towards the SD lore that's been developed is a big reason why Luca only taught SJ exceedingly rarely. I've encountered a ton of characters that just expected to be taught, like it was a sacred duty. That's crazy to me. If you want something from a character, offer something in return so it's worth their time. Especially since most SDs aren't exactly benevolent/shiny sorts.

Additionally,

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Shadow dancer stuff shouldn't be an academic process, it's a physical ability and not something like a wizard who has to study for years and years.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

This is a rogue class, not a magic class.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

So tl;dr: Having to learn physics to shadowjump is stupid, it's a physical activity and not a mental one.

The amount of flat-wrong displayed here is exactly the reason the upper tier abilities need to be mentored. This coming from a player that really, really should know better, because he's RPed with many very high-quality SDs over the years.

I think the strongest argument here I've seen is, why must this be a taught ability, while other key abilities aren't? Is it because of its specific rules that demand understanding? Or purely for RP promoting? Or something else? Genuinely curious.

To answer aida's question:

There is very little lore on Shadowdancers in Forgotten Realms material. The homebrew stuff we use on Amia is a menagerie of bits and pieces that were pulled from various sources (Such as the Child of Night PRC from the Tome of Magic), and the imagination of our pioneering players such as Tormak, Mahtan, Sune, and NinjaClarinet. As such, you can't go and just crack open a sourcebook to understand how these things are supposed to work. There literally is no other way to understand it, and how it fits within the Shadowdancer paradigm & abilities, than to be taught that by another PC.

There are OOC restrictions to the use of the abilities as well. Those of us that teach do our best to frame this within the IC lore as well as just letting you know that it's against the server rules.

There are other things such as blackguard & monk abilities that can be learned through an NPC. Frankly, I think they should have to be taught by a PC (or DM) as well. Want to make a pact with a demon/whatever - why is something that should be such a foundation of your character's development and core boiled down to a few mouse clicks? Clicking through a conversation to get a widget/ability is not roleplay IMO.

I wouldn't understand a quarter of the shadowdancer lore if I had not had to learn it in-character. I realize, that's just me, everyone else's mileage may vary. But I don't think a shadowdancer should be portrayed as a vanilla rogue that happens to be able to Hide in Plain Sight, any more than I think a drow should be portrayed as a human that happens to have dark skin and a high SR.

Teachers are really not that hard to find - unless your PC has done something to make it difficult for them in particular. Then - that's just IC consequences, man. :wink:

I'll give you a clue, here. There are some other /very nice/ shadowdancer abilities available, but they are kept quiet and only taught to people that put forth the effort to be a part of shadowdancer lore and the RP that surrounds it. Trade secrets, if you will, that one 'dancer would only pass on to another serious 'dancer. Generally this requires you become close enough to form a Mentor/apprentice type of relationship. As is evidenced by the bru-haha over Shadow Jump, very few people that choose the class are willing to do that.

My own shitty two cents here, but I feel like i f people really want this to happen, it should require DM assistance to spawn the NPC, but they hide it in an obscure location, forcing the player to find it. (Being a HIPS class, I doubt they'd stay still for long.) That way if you're gonna inconvenience the DM by wanting an NPC, they're gonna inconvenience you by working just as hard to find it.

MisterLich wrote:

I feel partially responsible for this - I was whining to Bob in Skype today about the necessity for OOC instruction of Shadowjump, which has made it, for me, kind of a chore to get the ability that I've wanted for so long.

Didn't your character walk out of of a completely free, no-strings-attached shadow jump lesson in order to look like an edgy/tough badass? Seems like a bit of a misplaced gripe when it was IC decisions that shot you in the foot rather than a lack of availability.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

MisterLich wrote:

I feel partially responsible for this - I was whining to Bob in Skype today about the necessity for OOC instruction of Shadowjump, which has made it, for me, kind of a chore to get the ability that I've wanted for so long.

Didn't your character walk out of of a completely free, no-strings-attached shadow jump lesson in order to look like an edgy/tough badass? Seems like a bit of a misplaced gripe when it was IC decisions that shot you in the foot rather than a lack of availability.

QFT

Alrighty, I'll toss in my 2 cents too.

While I can see the value of teaching SJ because of the homebrew lore along with it, I also see that as a slippery slope to other things.

One feature of Amia that makes it great is the freedom. Freedom to make whatever concept you like, freedom to take that PRC you always wanted. Freedom to RP how you want, within reason.

Sure, it's not really fair that SD requires this "extra rp" and "inconvenience" to get Shadowjump, and it could be argued, and was mentioned that more special abilities should have rp to go with them. This, my friends is that slippery slope.

I've only had one character go through the SJ classes, and I'll be honest, it was a mixed bag. On one hand, it turned out great, and I was glad I did it. On the other? Well... having my character and our class belittled and berated for another's amusement, whether it's their character to be that way or not... ehh, I just didn't get that. However, as I said, things turned around, and I ended up enjoying the time spent.

Now... if we had to do this for other abilities? PRC's? Hmm, I think we'd see a lot more issues arising. If it's an IC thing to teach an ability, first that requires a teacher. If that teacher is of a mind to NOT teach certain people, that excludes them from ever learning that ability. On a game that is 12+ years old, on a server that is scrambling to retain and expand it's playerbase, that's not a good thing.

Okay, that's my piece on this.

Now, to Misterlich: I was there, in that class that you freely came to, paid nothing for, and walked out of because of some silly reason I don't even remember anymore. Add to that, the character in question is getting the reputation as being less than goodly. When you combine your character's actions, and your character's reputation, sure, you may have trouble getting someone to WANT to teach you, using the current system.

This is where I am torn. I do believe IC actions should have IC consequences, but, I love the Freedom we have on Amia. So... while I do understand why SJ is unique, I think it's the only ability that should be treated this way. Let's not expand this to other abilities, please.

Edit: Oh, as for the sharing of information, I do think that the SD lore should be posted in a place where people can find it easily. As we do have Amian specific lore for this, I believe the information should be out there to find... easily. Yes, I know it's there, I've read it, but... hells if I could find it again. I can get on the internet and learn and research all sorts of arcane and divine abilities, but I can't do that for SD stuff? Makes no sense. But, this requires people to adjust our forums, and make things easier to find. Not a dig or a bash, just something that I think can be addressed to help with this particular issue.

aida wrote:

I think the strongest argument here I've seen is, why must this be a taught ability, while other key abilities aren't? Is it because of its specific rules that demand understanding? Or purely for RP promoting? Or something else? Genuinely curious.

because the ability doesn't actually function in game as it should. it's literally a teleport anywhere button; through walls and doors even, you just hit the button and go pretty much anywhere you can see.

this is why the training is important, so players can learn how to use it 'correctly,' and how to properly represent what the ability is and does, without being stopped by a foot high ledge, or be taught that you arn't allowed to SJ up to an unreachable ledge and rain death onto your hapless enemies.

clicking through an NPC like crazy doesn't teach this. All IC reasoning aside, all magic reasoning aside, the OOC "this is how you can use it" trumps that all and necessitates an ig explanation and demonstration.

Not sure if this is in line with the topic... but didn't dragon disciples get the ability to fly? From what I remember it works similar to how shadow jump does... Now what if there was a shadow dragon disciple shadow dancer... can he learn how to shadow fly?

Comatose wrote:

Now what if there was a shadow dragon disciple shadow dancer...

There is.

Comatose wrote:

... can he learn how to shadow fly?

If that is a serious question, then the answer is currently, No. You can learn to both fly and shadow jump though.

I'm gonna come clean on this thread. I got drunk and started SJWing after a friend was complaining about the fact that they can't get their shadowjump widget. I didn't intend to bring anyone's name into it though I still did.

So for the record, the problem I've personally seen with the widget has nothing to do with:

A: Individual players
B: The lore behind it

My issue is that it requires you find someone with the prerequisite build. And if you don't want to learn from them then you need to find someone else with the build and either hope they've already learned it or convince them to learn it from whoever is currently around.

I think the ic lessons are fine, but really shadowjump should come with some implicit instructions in the widget as to it's capabilities and listed penalties for exploiters instead of relying on it.

That was what I wanted to convey but instead I made an ass of myself.

So, formally, I apologize anatida. Your name had nothing to do with the point of this thread. Nor did most of my origional post. I was just being a dick.

Bob,

This is extremely manly of you. Thank you, and apology accepted!

Anatida wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

MisterLich wrote:

I feel partially responsible for this - I was whining to Bob in Skype today about the necessity for OOC instruction of Shadowjump, which has made it, for me, kind of a chore to get the ability that I've wanted for so long.

Didn't your character walk out of of a completely free, no-strings-attached shadow jump lesson in order to look like an edgy/tough badass? Seems like a bit of a misplaced gripe when it was IC decisions that shot you in the foot rather than a lack of availability.

QFT

Lol, you accusing me of trying to be "edgy". You're a funny boy, NC.

No, if you want to get into this, I thought the lesson was handled poorly and was having a bad time, and as That Guy said, the entire class was getting berrated and belittled by people trying to be edgy and badass. And I wasn't the only one who wasn't having a fun time.

Have a nice day.

Edit: You know, this really seemed odd to me for you to post. Your post seems to insinuate then, that you should ignore what your character would do ICly, or ignore whether or not the RP is worth sticking around for, just to get the mechanical widget.

Aren't you and Anatida the ones always saying we need to RP for this shit? Well I RP'd. Doesn't mean I have to like that Shadowjump is hard to get unless you're willing to force yourself to sit through RP you wouldn't normally touch with a ten-foot pole.

That is not what he, or I, said at all. What we said was, your character acted IC. Our characters acted IC. The fact that there aren't any SDs willing to train you isn't a reason to institute a mechanical change on the server, IMO. There are other PCs posting in the lessons threads who are willing to teach, so this isn't just about myself & NC. There are IC REASONS, people don't want to deal with your PC. The time you were given the opportunity, (because Iim is one of the FEW people that will deal with all SDs regardless of who/what they are) you chose not to follow through with it. That is on you, not other players, and not the mechanics of the server.

I couldn't care less that anyone didn't like the lesson. I'll tell you Iim teaches far more congenially than Derrin ever did (or still does). Not a slight to Analog, as he'll tell you the same thing!

i thought the three steps school had a policy of extreme neutrality on outside conflicts.

was this rescinded after someone stepped down or whatever? is it bias again?

This isn't about the Three Steps. It is not biased. Thus why our PCs tried to teach in the first place.

Osiris didn't like our class and left. That's Ok, and fine.

But now he can't find a teacher.

I have seen plenty of people posting their willingness to teach SJ. If no one has posted to Osiris, then that's IC.

There haven't been instructors actively teaching SJ through the Academy, other than Iim, for over a year. Others that teach do it independently.

i did a class for a few people in the past month or so.

"The fact that there aren't any SDs willing to train you isn't a reason to institute a mechanical change on the server, IMO."

I'm ignoring the arrogant parts of your post where you basically proclaim Iim is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and your language that comes off as confrontational, but I disagree with your statement here in multiple ways.

1. I got an instructor for one thing, lol. That was even in my original post in the thread. Also, don't talk for your boyfriend. I was talking at NC. Your attempt at explaining away his words doesn't change what he said.

2. If a character is unable to attain a class ability because they are acting IC, for no real reason than "people don't want to play nice with him", then that is absolutely reason to examine how the class ability is distributed. Preventing a class ability from being available purely because an evil character acts evilly and there might not be an active SJ teacher that gets along with him, is dumb.

3. This is mitigated by the fact that DM's have, according to Tormak, made NPC's that they can teach through, basically handling the lesson themselves as DM's. This is a neat thing to do, but we don't exactly have a lot of DM's anymore. Let's not strain our resources too much.

So it seems fine to me to suggest making a player-interaction-independent way of attaining the class ability.

Keep this constructive or I'll go whine to dad Tormak. I am not above being a tattle tale. I left a lesson that my character ICly didn't want to put up with, and OOCly didn't like the RP quality, bam, done. That's not a secret. The bad part, is that being denied a class feature because all other shadowjump-teaching-capable people are incapable of roleplaying with an evil person, without pvping him, is essentially locking people into certain RP paths. You have to be friends with the Hin, for example, or else you don't get half your class abilities (for people going 6 SD, anyway. Epic SD's get a decent Daze and summon, which are nice, at least.) You don't like the Hin ICly? You don't like the way this is going OOCly for some reason? Too bad, then, you're not getting your class ability.

There are some instructors who don't care who they teach for the most part, but they're not the majority, from what I have seen. This was a problem for myself - I don't know if it was for anybody else, but it probably has been, just guessing.

Flying

Shadow Jump

1000 faces

Monkey Grip

What am I missing? If you're going to change one, change them all.

Well, Flying and Monkey Grip are NOT class limited, so why count them in?

PassionateShadow wrote:

I'll teach any onnnnnne

+1

MisterLich wrote:

<Stuff>

PassionateShadow wrote:

I'll teach any onnnnnne

+1

nobody +1's their own post on my watch

Commie wrote:

PassionateShadow wrote:

I'll teach any onnnnnne

+1

nobody +1's their own post on my watch

+1 <3

Misterlich, you're not allowed to tell people to keep a post constructive when you bump the topic after 6 days and lambast them OOCly over it. This is your second warning in as many days.

This situation is unlikely to change - Shadow Jump will continue to be taught by PCs, with DM intervention as necessary should new seeding ever need to occur. Thank you everyone for insights into the PC-taught ability topics, and your ideas on how to make it better.

Commie wrote:

i disagree because learning to use shadowjump requires ooc instruction that machine-gun-clicking through an npc trainer won't teach.

it's one of the few examples of consistent class-based roleplay ON the server and I think it's sort of a shame MORE classes don't have cool shit like this.

tbh every single custom spell on Amia should have this possibility. Maybe every class should have quirks obtainable though teaching or apprenticeship.

Edit; uhm, totally didnt notice this thread was locked.

Give SDs an NPC for Shadowjump widgets

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