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[ 29 posts ] |
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That Guy
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 Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 17:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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A lot has been said lately that UMD'ers have an upper hand. In a way, they do. It doesn't take a lot of investment in levels or skill points to get enough UMD to use any wand or scroll you like.
Instead of adjusting the spells, why not adjust UMD?
Perhaps something like....
DC to use = Spell level + (insert number here) UMD? Could be... 15. That way you need 24 UMD to use a 9th level spell scroll or wand. Could be whatever the team deems appropriate. This way, at least that person taking 1 rogue level has to invest some points too. Right now, isn't it less than 10 points needed? Not sure on that.
Anyhow, just a thought.
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robbi320
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 17:59 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Personally, I'd rather go Spell level*3, because what you are suggesting would leave a rogue who didn't go just one, but rather rogue from 1 to 10, for example, a nicer progression. At level one, he can use first level scrolls and cantrips. Then it goes on. I just think it leaves low-level spells at low level. I don't know though, because personally, I think scrolls are what make a rogue even slightly effective solo.
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I disagree on levels, UMD is a skill, make it skill based DC, not level based. Rogue is not the only UMD class.
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:15 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Definitely agree something should be done, though the math retains to be the undecided factor, since opinions vary.
Personally, I think things like lvl9 scrolls should require at least 30 UMD (without charisma) then ramp -3 per spell level,
lv: UMD
9: 30
8: 27
7: 24
6: 21
5: 18
4: 15
3: 12
2: 9
1: 6
_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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Hmm, so you're saying actual points, not adjusted skill mod? Ehh, I'd make it the adjusted mod... if they are a minmaxer with 6 cha, they need 2 more points to hit 30.
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:39 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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That Guy wrote: Hmm, so you're saying actual points, not adjusted skill mod? Ehh, I'd make it the adjusted mod... if they are a minmaxer with 6 cha, they need 2 more points to hit 30. My line of thinking is that it would keep bard from getting an unfair advantage doing a rogue's job (mostly). But as I said in my previous post, the math is really something that not everyone will agree with and largely is probably still open for debate. Either way, you should need a ton of UMD to cast level 9 spells from a scroll.
_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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Commie
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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If it's available people are just going to do it. People already are slaves to tumble.
I don't see a fix and dont know if we should get one. If I'm a melee guy with umd why should I have to run from a fight because a wizard put up acid sheath? Disjoint it. This sort of counterplay simply has to be available given how absurd some wards are.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I agree, just saying maybe they have to invest a bit more to do it.
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Commie
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Every build I've ever seen that gets umd dips one Rogue or bard at the end and sinks 30pts at level 29 or something. Your suggestion wouldn't change anything.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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RaveN
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:45 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Commie wrote: If it's available people are just going to do it. People already are slaves to tumble.
I don't see a fix and dont know if we should get one. If I'm a melee guy with umd why should I have to run from a fight because a wizard put up acid sheath? Disjoint it. This sort of counterplay simply has to be available given how absurd some wards are. There are other options that require LESS or NO UMD: Scroll/Wand of Lesser Breach Tome of Mystra [Fairly common epic] Greater Dispel % Resistance Ring or/and raw DR Holy Sword [Paladin] Beholder Summon I don't want to remove all of the options to defend yourself, and I don't really mind the wands as much as the level 9 scrolls. I'd rather have someone spamming a breach wand than use a level 9 spell more efficiently than a caster with zero effort.
_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Bio ware has thr built in pnp method to use scrolls. That's 25 plus spell level on a d20 umd check, btw. It's a lot.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 18:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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25+9=34. So... if they invest 33 points into UMD, they succeed.
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maglorine
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 19:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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I don't think most people take 33 points in UMD. I don't think most people take 30, or even 25.
Everyone knows today you can cast any scroll wand or whatnot with a handful of points and the rest is just for equipping gear, if you need it. You put on some UMD gear, saddle up your gear, take your UMD gear off, and you are good until reset. Or you get a bard to sing for you.
The Bioware solution is ready made and really the way to go if you want to stiffen the requirements. It will make people take more points in the skill, which weakens other skills, or wear UMD gear which consumes slots.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, Jul 22 2016, 19:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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maglorine wrote: I don't think most people take 33 points in UMD. I don't think most people take 30, or even 25.
Everyone knows today you can cast any scroll wand or whatnot with a handful of points and the rest is just for equipping gear, if you need it. You put on some UMD gear, saddle up your gear, take your UMD gear off, and you are good until reset. Or you get a bard to sing for you.
The Bioware solution is ready made and really the way to go if you want to stiffen the requirements. It will make people take more points in the skill, which weakens other skills, or wear UMD gear which consumes slots. Exactly my point.
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MightNMagic
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 0:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Location: Space Australia
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... meanwhile the server makes dipping rogue into every damned build a necessity more and more with every update...
_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
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Commie
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 0:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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I got quite a few 30's now and only one with umd.
It's not necessary, not like tumble or discipline, as its function can be replicated via items.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 8:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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maglorine wrote: I don't think most people take 33 points in UMD. I don't think most people take 30, or even 25.
Everyone knows today you can cast any scroll wand or whatnot with a handful of points and the rest is just for equipping gear, if you need it. You put on some UMD gear, saddle up your gear, take your UMD gear off, and you are good until reset. Or you get a bard to sing for you.
The Bioware solution is ready made and really the way to go if you want to stiffen the requirements. It will make people take more points in the skill, which weakens other skills, or wear UMD gear which consumes slots. Most UMDers take 25 or 30, or an amount of UMD that allows them to sit at 25 or 30 post typical charisma modifier.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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maglorine
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 13:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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TormakSaber wrote:
Most UMDers take 25 or 30, or an amount of UMD that allows them to sit at 25 or 30 post typical charisma modifier.
Well, you'd know better than I what's commonplace. I guess I'm the outlier then as I've little use for that much even on my heavy Rogue build. Perhaps I've just never run across that indispensable bit of gear that requires so much.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 16:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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Making umd restrictive on a high magic setting like amia will only hurt the server. Having scrolls is not a make or break in pvp. They freeze you and you can't scroll timestop. This would only deny people access to shapechange for the most part, which makes stealth totally infallable to a lot of melee builds who want to have private meetings.
_________________  Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Commie
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Posted: Sat, Jul 23 2016, 16:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Na. You can throw on some spot gear and mythal more spot onto the rest of your stuff and be literally impossible to hide from.
Also seriously why would you only go a few points into UMD? I understand it's 'min-maxy' but come on. At least go all the way.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Bertnard
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Posted: Sun, Jul 24 2016, 9:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Location: Under the bridge
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If you are under 10th level of class that can pick UMD and use scroll or wand in fight - 50% chance of bad things happening!
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Wed, Jul 27 2016, 11:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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… UMD nerf.
Why.
It's barely useful already.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Cracked Red Eye Orb
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Posted: Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2015
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Make it a skill for all classes.
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Darkblade
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Posted: Sun, Aug 07 2016, 12:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
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Kas wrote: Make it a skill for all classes. This and add tumble to the list There bothe so overly important on any melee build its idiotic that i'm forced to take two lvl's of rogue on nearly all my builds just to have tumble,UMD and evasion to have a character that can run the end Game True UMD is not overly important on casters, but still
_________________
Plays:
Ragnar Ungorn
Hasam Alrab
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maglorine
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Posted: Sun, Aug 07 2016, 13:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: It's barely useful and yet a DM says.... TormakSaber wrote: Most UMDers take 25 or 30, or an amount of UMD that allows them to sit at 25 or 30 post typical charisma modifier. and now people are asking for ... Kas wrote: Make it a skill for all classes. One of these things doesn't belong. Is it barely useful or something all classes need? If it's barely useful, why do most people take 25 or 30 ranks? Personally, I find it incredibly useful, though as stated I'm not taking 25 or 30 ranks. However, if the scroll change went in I would. It doesn't need to be given to all classes either. Rogues have a role, this is part of that role.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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MisterLich
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Posted: Tue, Aug 09 2016, 15:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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We all know UMD is super useful lol.
If I had UMD on Osiris, since some are suggesting every class have UMD, it'd be dumb. I would be able to self haste with wands that last way longer than the potions I keep buying from the Witch in the forest. I could cast II on myself and my summon. I could cast Mord's on annoying mages or people who drink mindblank, so that I can Hammer of the Gods them (or cast Harm on mages who use Shadow Shield. Seriously, immunity to an entire spell school is dumb.) I would be able to buff my AC and shapechange into a Death Slaad and spit acid at pesky DEX monks, and then when their HP is slightly lowered, blast them with hellball/GR.
UMD changes the playing field of pvp. It adds an entirely new dimension.
It's incredibly powerful.
That said, it already requires a dip in a 3rd class which itself is hard for some builds (like Osiris and Frugdar!)
I'd say I agree with the idea of raising the required UMD for scrolls/wands, a bit. But this doesn't really change the fact that most people who want to build with UMD will just take 1 rogue in late epics and max out the skill anyway. UMD being prevalent is not necessarily a bad thing, really. When everybody is super powerful, nobody is. I'd say it's not too bad of a situation right now.
It'd be way worse if Time Stop were scrollable. I'd never build without UMD again if that were the case.
_________________ Osiris Masud
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Wed, Aug 10 2016, 19:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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MisterLich wrote: It'd be way worse if Time Stop were scrollable. I'd never build without UMD again if that were the case. #Thread This is the reason my friend. The thing is that the 'useful' parts of UMD are literally not any number of scrolls. UMD is pretty much solely used so that evil aligned characters can get good gear (so much only usable by good shit), and for wands. In the case of these wands, there's 90% of the time items available as alternatives, and if not it's definitely possible to request them. In fact -- the absolute only thing you should EVER NEED that is UMDable and NOT ACCESSIBLE any other way is Breach wands. UMD is great if you have the skill points for it. But real talk? Investing more than 15 (enough to use wands of any charge number) is a mistake -- and it would be just as much of a mistake to make that harder to do since 15 is literally half of 1 INT modifier already. You'll indirectly make low CL casters better, you won't be stopping people from using scrolls because they didn't use them to begin with, and then you may watch the Tenser WM renaissance. _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Aug 10 2016, 19:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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despite being a mechanics monster my chars have 30 final umd or 0.
i just don't think splashing a skill like that. i don't have any rationale aside from it doesn't feel right.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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EdwardVB
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Posted: Thu, Aug 11 2016, 5:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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Sounds to me like some people are upset that their class has something it can't do. UMD is fine as it is, I don't even use it on my current main cause I have Wiz levels but getting rid of it would truly place casters on the top of the food chain. Making it harder to cast disjunction and breach (which take a full round even hasted from a scroll, leaving you very vulnerable) just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
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