AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Is anyone else not a fan of being able to buy immunities?

I've never been keen on just being able to, via the DC system, buy immunities to elements or status effects or spells that are normally not available on gear. While I understand some people RP for this stuff (I need a fear immune ring because my character IC conquered their fears/I DC requested a race that has immunities so I want a ring of those immunities) I honestly think the whole concept is bunk.

It's literally 'buying power,' a purely mechanical benefit (because lets be real, you can RP being resilient to fear w/o a ring of it) bought via RP tokens. I think that if we do continue to allow buying power in the "post freedom" world that we're headed to, instead of being blanket immune to some effects, we should instead simply change those effects to a bonus to saves vs it, such as +4 vs fear. That way it gives you a little bump to reflect the race you DC bought or the RP you did, but doesn't just make you wholly immune to entire swaths of spells and creature/player abilities.

Because, frankly, I think special races are fun and all, RPing how brave you are is fun and all, but giving out this kind of 'power' just because "it's all IC" is lame. I also think this change warrants a retroactive fix on items that give status/element/specific spell immunity, because "why are you immune to Time Stop/elemental damage/fear/paralysis? Oh because someone gave you an item that makes you immune to it good job" is an incredibly lame game-state to be in, especially in the post-freedom world of tomorrow.

It's no secret that I am no fan of the item creep. The DM team has been regressing a lot of the damage that has taken place over the years. It will take more time, as it works in stages but I suspect many of the issues you're noticing will be addressed.

As far as the concept of 'DC's buying power' I simply cannot agree more. I much prefer someone 'invent' something with DC's, that others can also purchase wholesale, and the system be transparent.

Nobody should be playing a mini-god, as that is not fun for anyone, including the mini-god.

Lastly, I should point out that I was starkly in favor of a 'max power limit', but that idea didn't catch much traction. Regardless of what properties you put on items, there was originally an algorithm with a min/max/mean of what kinds of attributes and stats, you could fit on your gear before you would need to do comparisons/trade-off's. DC's in my view take away the idea of 'trade-off's' and just give you everything wholesale. While the idea isn't inherently disastrous, when a character obtains more than 1 DC item, it puts into jeopardy the entire balance of that character with regards to the rest of the server. It actually got so bad, that there exists a 'zoo' on the server of creatures that have a chance at killing some of the more ridiculous PC's, since they were vastly OP.

I don't think you can 'max power limit,' as different 'powers' have different value to different builds, but I am on board with you on other things.

Not to mention culling special items/forms that just remove the weakness of those things, such as approving an item with evasion but w/o the now-standard -2 reflex.

The max power ceiling would just ensure that you aren't just someone wearing a ton of ridiculous DC loot, or something.

Helm- 3
Rings- 6
Neck- 3
Cloak- 3
Boots- 3
Belt- 3
Weapon- 4
Shield- 3
Armor- 4
Glove - 4

So we can assume that a only mythalled person has a max 36 powers. We know epics have more powers than allowed, and so do DC's.

So we could have the ceiling at something generous, like 42, 44, 46, 48 or whatever. Either way, we all know that the problem is that with DC loot, the '36' becomes '39', then '42'. The numbers only get 'higher', which is the problem with DC loot. You scale, but the rest of the server does not. Alas, that is just the basis for my reasoning. And yes, scaling is a bad thing. You end up with like 45 fort, 35 reflex, and 35 will save. (and that's not counting the current ridiculous immunity list) Aka, raid boss syndrome.

I fully agree, this kind of stuff should in my opinion not be given out anymore. I know we are a good bit beyond some of the more screwed up things that I only hear in tales told by veteran players at midnight (anti-magic auras and other fun things like that), so we should likely make the full step and keep it in check.

Sky is blue, grass is green.

Also I don't have an issue and hope nobody has an issue with a special DC race getting a ring that's like 50% immunity to the appropriate elements and some bonus to saves vs shit that race is typically immune to, as that's something in line with what you can get.

I'm talking about stuff you literally cannot obtain, true immunity to specific kinds of things. The recent change to freedom discussions inspired this topic as it makes those things that much more valuable. Not any particular items or requests.

I hate to be that codgety old man, but complaining that old things being of a certain power seems counter to the "we want a dynamic world" diatribe. In a dynamic world, such things exist. There are groups and players who spent 5 year arcs of research or effort or effort on becoming/getting whatever, and got something crazy for it. And maybe we wouldn't allow that now, but constantly trying to re-balance every single aspect of the past to fit whatever Utopian future we might be envisioning for Amia is not an excuse for it. Real talk, we are not attracting in enough new people in to warrant that. As someone who is literally trying to walk 3 new people through the process of installing and setting up NWN to play Amia, I'm seeing first hand the filters that make the game more difficult to get into now. But more importantly, and it may be anecdotal to my friends, but the filter of "I don't want older PCs to have better stuff than I can get" is not there. At all. They could give a flying fuck about coming into a setting 10 years old an expecting to have all the opportunity someone who's been here forever has had. I've told them the item situation. I even explained how they'll likely never see the custom scripting many older players enjoy. And their response was in so many words "Of course there's some awesome veterans and powerful old stuff you can't get any more. That's the setting and that's any game that goes on for that long." Fairness is cool, keeping the game fun and balanced for as many people is an A-1 effort for the server, but not at the expense of older players and certainly not under the thin veneer "new players feel left out." I'd wager most know what they're getting into.

That is not to say there isn't a solution to the perceived problem. That's not to say that Immunities shouldn't have a much, much higher standard in terms of what RP and effort is needed to achieve them. But I think we've already hit on it with the changes to CC itself. The effects aren't as fight-ending, so immunity to them intrinsically becomes less of a necessity. If you get it now, cool, but it's less of a problem either way. With the presumptive change to epic item Freedom becoming a spellcasting on items(I don't think I've heard it out of a DM's mouth yet, but it's repeated by several people), it is then fully in the hands of the DMs when to hand out these immunities. That in itself seems enough for right now, rather than outright asking for immunities never to be allowed again. The dust hasn't even settled from the current changes, so how the heck are we to know if its even warranted yet?

Pardon me if this sounds bitter, but a nerve of mine is always touched whenever a suggestion is made that concerns editing or removing items from PCs, particular DC ones. And it's not because I think anyone has any jealousy, resentment, or anything but the best of intentions for keeping our server, game, and playerbase a healthy and fun environment. But is a difficult situation where we have always, and will always risk cutting off our nose to spite our face. It's largely innocent, and probably well-meaning to suggest going back and touching old stuff for the "good of the server," but as someone who's been on the receiving end of that "good"--and for a time left the server over the threat of that "good" being enacted on me--it's not worth it. I wouldn't want to put that burden on someone else's enjoyment, someone who could have done any number of things to achieve their item or equipment. To put the onus of my fun upon something they might have worked their ass off for, all from the perception that if our interaction is not equal, it is their fault. It is why I am a firm supporter of "balance by addition" when at all possible. People seldom leave a game over something that gets added to a game. Likewise, people are often attracted to game by new features. But rarely, if ever, are people kept or people attracted over the removal of things. Not to say it isn't sometimes warranted. But whenever possible, choose antibiotics over amputation, yeah?

P.S. I am indifferent towards item creep. Compared to what you could get in the past, what we've allowed over the past 4 or 5 years is quite tame. Hell, half the time it wasn't even necessary for it to be DC, just look at Thayvian stuff and things like Purity and Filth. That said, let my opinion on item creep be taken with a grain of salt. I make no bones about it; if the server will indeed one day end, I much prefer a widening gyre of PC god-kings and celestial/infernal legions ending our story in a terrific Ragnarok, rather than experiencing a slow and agonizing "heat death" from everything becoming ruled and limited by an OoC template. Not saying this at all in some sort of redneck "love it or leave it" way, but Arileth has the whole set up where you by default can't "get" something not already on items available to everyone else. I am not a fan. Which is why I'm here.

Edit: Also forgive me if I've misunderstood the topic, I'm going off like 2 hours of sleep here and feeling long-winded.

Personally I'm not really a fan of any player class feature being made powerless because they had the DCs to spend

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Personally I'm not really a fan of any player class feature being made powerless because they had the DCs to spend

Yeah I agree with you. It's one thing to get a bonus it's another to just DC a ring and add another thing to your list of "gameplay stuff I can ignore."

Also remember when the Black Label potions were culled. A few players commented how not seeing how having a few pots was OP, but it was later revealed people had bags with triple digits of those op potions, because they knew how good they were.

It's just my opinion, and while I have many unpopular ones (such as adding +5 ac +3 cha or str or con or whatev boots to a store so they don't have to be DC requested.) I don't think the removal of literal power buying via DC request is one of those.

But I also think if that custom stuff is in the game and being used by players, it needs to be either made available to everyone or culled, partic when the custom version of a thing is just literally the same thing but mechanically better.

Commie wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Personally I'm not really a fan of any player class feature being made powerless because they had the DCs to spend

Yeah I agree with you. It's one thing to get a bonus it's another to just DC a ring and add another thing to your list of "gameplay stuff I can ignore."

Also remember when the Black Label potions were culled. A few players commented how not seeing how having a few pots was OP, but it was later revealed people had bags with triple digits of those op potions, because they knew how good they were.

It's just my opinion, and while I have many unpopular ones (such as adding +5 ac +3 cha or str or con or whatev boots to a store so they don't have to be DC requested.) I don't think the removal of literal power buying via DC request is one of those.

But I also think if that custom stuff is in the game and being used by players, it needs to be either made available to everyone or culled, partic when the custom version of a thing is just literally the same thing but mechanically better.

Those boots don't have to be DC requested. You can find them with a lot of hard work and dedication through Epic Boss Hunting. +5 AC (+3 All Attributes)

Really don't need superheroes, though. In a game where death is up to the storywriter, and often results in no consequence, it just doesn't make sense to have people who have 'earned' invincibility through items.

Sorry, but we all play the same game. I have some DC items that should be removed personally, because it's not about what I "RP'd" to get, but about what you would feel like if you were a new player and had to imagine investing in a realm where people have now-unobtainable godmode. Mind, none of my items are ridiculously game-breaking, but I have too many of them. Still, anything is better than the other possibility: that are still-obtainable godmode items which leave zero interest in PvP or using the mechanics as it was before because everyone is a boring demigod.

These fixes are lifeblood, and will continue to be, as long as people allow their precious game breaking stuff to be changed.

I'd rather play the game and have lost, than have always won by never playing because I was too good.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

Those boots don't have to be DC requested. You can find them with a lot of hard work and dedication through Epic Boss Hunting. +5 AC (+3 All Attributes)

Maybe I am mistaken but I'm almost certain that at least +5 AC +3 wisdom doesn't exit.

I may have been mistaken. I also don't think +3 Dex is, because you can get that at the Abyss Shop / Gauntlet. But you get the jist. Most of the +3 / +5 AC boots are in the Epic Loot Bin. So it is too powerful to just "sale" in a shop.

The fact that 5/+3 ac exists on a vendor at all still disproportionately affects the meta

Quote:

RaveN's stuff.

We do play the same game, but more importantly we inhabit the same setting. A setting that moves irrespective and exists irrespective to any theoretical "new players." People use the possibility of new players are constant reasoning to do this, but it simply is not the case that people are breaking down our door. And they are sure as hell not waiting in the threshold for us to make changes on what we have. What we balance, and what we allow, should be based upon what we have. If something needs to be removed, its because it is a problem for our current situation, not how "a new player would feel." Harsh way to put it, but the constant call back towards new changes bringing in new players is a fantasy, simply put. If we attract people, we attract them based upon what we are, what we have most of the time been. As much love as I have for the guy, the Glim-Era of restructuring is testament to just how much that fucks us up. We are not WoW. We aren't really even an MMORPG at this point. We would do well to dispense with the notion that we are anything else. We aren't here to attract people, we're here to continue offering and enriching the Amian experience for Amians.

Truly, no one has a god-mode. Not at the moment. I'm not sure if anyone here in the past few years has actually seen an actual god-mode. The closest we've come is those shifters that were doing sketchy stuff, and even then, even then that pales towards anything which you could even call "invincible." The majority of what people experience now is, well, a lack of experience. I engage in PvP a max of maybe once a year as both of my PC's combined. But I shit you not, I can fully buff my mage using the radial menu, blind folded. I know where my GS scrolls, Heal Potions, and Reality Pots are on my quick menu without even seeing it in front of me. Why? Because this has been my afternoon for almost a decade now... or at least it was until recent years. Shiny old items help, gimmick spells help, but nothing's going trump muscle memory at this point. Nothing trumps simply knowing how the game works and what to do and when. As has been stated, there is a wide difference in skill among our playerbase; that's not going to change simple because we limit what everyone can get.

But the thing is this: DC items often help shore up that difference. Or at least, they can be used to. Not only for skill cap differences, but in terms of build differences too. You say no one should have access to certain things on DC request, but what I really think you mean is certain builds. Because do you really care if RP build with 35 ab and +30 in social skills RP's for a year to receive Immunity to Fear on an item? Probably not. What you're afraid of, and possibly rightly so, is the min-maxed powerbuild putting forth some bare-bones story and getting something that makes them even more powerful in PvP simply "because they had DCs." But the thing is, when you set the limit for everyone at what would make the already powerful things too powerful, you simply cement them as being the most powerful, with no one else able to challenge them through RP achievement. It probably is just my own flawed perception, but the idea that every DC request is and has somehow happened in a vacuum, with no context of the player and the PC's build for whom it is made, is a rather recent idea. And the idea that by blindly going back, removing these things without first seeing if they're a problem at all, simply because we wouldn't allow them now by our across-the-board rubrics, is silly. You'd not be making it more fair, you'd just be screwing tons of players to little to no benefit. "Sorry, we're taking your Halberd, because we wouldn't approve it today for a Halberd WM." "But you didn't approve it for a Halberd WM, you approved it for me, a Ranger/Rogue, and tons of my RP is actually based around having this as is now." "Oh well, screw you I guess, simply because you're not an RP-less powerbuild doesn't mean we don't get to treat you like one, in retrospect. And your story is less important to us, on an RP server, than the illusion that no time or power shifts have happened, on this, an RP server." No, fuck everything about that, I'm sorry.

TL;DR. DC request aren't just there to make strong characters stronger, they're there to make RP and weaker characters -as- strong sometimes. Also, the day we make any sweeping motions to simply remove DC items and spells is the day we put Amia in the ground. Also, the notion that changes need to be made based on theoretical new players and their feelings will put us under as quick as anything else. The changes to CC are indeed a lifeblood, the immunity changes it's a bit early to tell, but removing items, no, that's not lifeblood, that's the first chemical cocktail in a lethal injection.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

The fact that 5/+3 ac exists on a vendor at all still disproportionately affects the meta

Yeah. I think we should literally add a cordwainer that just sells plus three and plus five for all stats. Put him in the abyss past windreaper or something.

Also Beldor powerbuilds do have access to those items same as the non powerbuilds.

I also don't see how from a rp standpoint +4 vs fear compared to fear immunity matters. If you are just rping you arnt even rolling vs fear, meanwhile mad max dexlord has fear immunity two con three fort on one ring and paralysis immunity two con three fort on the other.

Sorry, I think we just disagree on a fundamental level, DI. There's a point at which no amount of RP justifies breaking the mechanics of the game, and sorry to say, that it has already happened. It's okay to have a difference of opinion though.

RaveN wrote:

Sorry, I think we just disagree on a fundamental level, DI. There's a point at which no amount of RP justifies breaking the mechanics of the game, and sorry to say, that it has already happened. It's okay to have a difference of opinion though.

Yeah I'm going to agree with the dev formerly known as Fadedwings here.

RaveN wrote:

Sorry, I think we just disagree on a fundamental level, DI. There's a point at which no amount of RP justifies breaking the mechanics of the game, and sorry to say, that it has already happened. It's okay to have a difference of opinion though.

Oh I'd agree, that's the same reason we don't actually have PC's playing gods. We can agree on that. What I wager we disagree on is what actually constitutes breaking the mechanics of the game. Nothing we've seen, at least not recently, is even close to that in my opinion. And if it's already happened, as crass as it may sound, do you think turning a simple fracture into a compound fracture is going to make anyone's day better? These new changes are indeed probably a step in the right direction, but the suggestion of getting rid of old items by default is a horse of a different color. It's been brought up as many times as a server wipe and a gold wipe have, and the resounding answer every time has been "more harm than good." Maybe that's the magic bullet to our problems, but the fact remains that that solution is still a freaking bullet.

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Also Beldor powerbuilds do have access to those items same as the non powerbuilds.

If you think Beldor is a powerbuild you either A) have no actual concept of what a powerbuild is other than "a character which may be powerful" or B) have bought into the hype too much. Hell, you've never even come into contact with Beldor in any mechanical sense, Commie, despite the best efforts of your most recent PC.

I don't think anything that has or will ever be DC requested will ever be broken as the fact heal potions can be bought from NPCs and popped like tic-tacs.

You missed the point. Anything beldor gets so can mad max DEXer. Telling people they cant get items because they are what is deemed at the time a "power build" is lame. People should be given the same treatment when it comes to items, built properly or not.

corypx wrote:

I don't think anything that has or will ever be DC requested will ever be broken as the fact heal potions can be bought from NPCs and popped like tic-tacs.

It's an 80% heal then only heals 5% per round since you used it last. It's not a "tic tac"

edit; also i'd hate to deal with timestop->hellball->ruin in a world w/o heal pots.

Last I checked, Timestop doesn't allow a person to be damaged directly whilst being affected by it (IE: Anyone but the caster)

Timestop + pwnage was indeed fixed a long time ago!

Commie wrote:

You missed the point. Anything beldor gets so can mad max DEXer. Telling people they cant get items because they are what is deemed at the time a "power build" is lame. People should be given the same treatment when it comes to items, built properly or not.

It's not so much because your build is a powerbuild per say that a thing would be denied, but rather if you build is already at a higher number of immunities, AC, AB, whatever. And not to further bring my own PC into, but in the past? No. Not everything he got could have been gotten by a mad max dexer. And certainly everything that mad dexers got, he could not get(I'm looking at you Onire, wherever you are).

At the end of the day, you can't have it both ways. Either you say anyone has an equal chance to get anything, regardless of build, and RP builds that want to use DC request to bring them up to average get left out, or you say it's a case by case thing and take the context of the character into account. No normal Bard build is ever getting Greater Heroism. It's crazy in almost all situations. BUT if DMs know that the PC in particular subpar mechanically, at the expense of being largely an RP oriented build, and knowing that even with Great Heroism they just barely come up to the average AB and Saves of a well-built bard, then maybe. Maybe, in some sort of epic quest and 3 natural 20 rolls in a row, they get it. Cool. I'd much rather live in that world, where people feel okay to build non-maximized builds, knowing they might get a little more leeway in request. The alternative is knowing if you choose a subpar build, it doesn't matter how good your RP and story is, literally any other build can get what you have an be better with it.

Equality and equity are two different things. Again, this is not a suggestion that anyone leave, but if you want to see the kind of system "equality" makes, visit Arelith. I'm not saying that to badmouth them, I'm saying if you haven't actually seen the world you suggest, then do so. I tried it at the same time I started Amia, tried it off and on many times sense, and I just don't see it working for us. Not this late in the game, not with the bulk of our playerbase being older and returning rather than newer.

Grymia wrote:

Last I checked, Timestop doesn't allow a person to be damaged directly whilst being affected by it (IE: Anyone but the caster)

you time stop, wait a tic, hellball, then ruin. they both hit at the same instant time stop ends so they take the full brunt of both epic spells instantly.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Commie wrote:

You missed the point. Anything beldor gets so can mad max DEXer. Telling people they cant get items because they are what is deemed at the time a "power build" is lame. People should be given the same treatment when it comes to items, built properly or not.

It's not so much because your build is a powerbuild per say that a thing would be denied, but rather if you build is already at a higher number of immunities, AC, AB, whatever. And not to further bring my own PC into, but in the past? No. Not everything he got could have been gotten by a mad max dexer. And certainly everything that mad dexers got, he could not get(I'm looking at you Onire, wherever you are).

At the end of the day, you can't have it both ways. Either you say anyone has an equal chance to get anything, regardless of build, and RP builds that want to use DC request to bring them up to average get left out, or you say it's a case by case thing and take the context of the character into account. No normal Bard build is ever getting Greater Heroism. It's crazy in almost all situations. BUT if DMs know that the PC in particular subpar mechanically, at the expense of being largely an RP oriented build, and knowing that even with Great Heroism they just barely come up to the average AB and Saves of a well-built bard, then maybe. Maybe, in some sort of epic quest and 3 natural 20 rolls in a row, they get it. Cool. I'd much rather live in that world, where people feel okay to build non-maximized builds, knowing they might get a little more leeway in request. The alternative is knowing if you choose a subpar build, it doesn't matter how good your RP and story is, literally any other build can get what you have an be better with it.

Equality and equity are two different things. Again, this is not a suggestion that anyone leave, but if you want to see the kind of system "equality" makes, visit Arelith. I'm not saying that to badmouth them, I'm saying if you haven't actually seen the world you suggest, then do so. I tried it at the same time I started Amia, tried it off and on many times sense, and I just don't see it working for us. Not this late in the game, not with the bulk of our playerbase being older and returning rather than newer.

A shitty build doesn't entitle you to unbalanced things.

People should drive the speed limit. But they don't. They like to drive 10 Km over the speed limit. What if we raise the speed limit 10 Km? Will the people that like to drive 10 Km over the speed limit still drive 10 Km over the speed limit?

TormakSaber wrote:

A shitty build doesn't entitle you to unbalanced things.

You know I'm not saying that at all. We've personally had this discussion before. Several times.

Comatose wrote:

People should drive the speed limit. But they don't. They like to drive 10 Km over the speed limit. What if we raise the speed limit 10 Km? Will the people that like to drive 10 Km over the speed limit still drive 10 Km over the speed limit?

Of course they will.

Dark Immolation wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

A shitty build doesn't entitle you to unbalanced things.

You know I'm not saying that at all. We've personally had this discussion before. Several times.

That is actually what you said though. Dms should give poor builds better things because they're not higher tier builds, because it doesn't matter as much. That is actually your logic and it's always been your logic. It's also poor logic, because believe it or not, people don't take it very well when you tell them they cant have the exact thing someone else was aproved before because youve arbitrarily deemed their build too good or too bad.

Tormak you know full well the difference between a poor build that comes from not knowing any better and a build that isn't min maxed for the sake of rp. It's the reason some custom feats such in the past have required you taking mechanically shitty things, but RPly justifiable things. Taking feats and investing in mechanically useless skills for rp has specifically been used later to justify getting things like pnp class emulation via armor and items. Saying build doesn't and shouldn't factor in at all is like saying RP reasoning doesn't factor in at all. Your build is tied to it.

Maybe it's a miscommunication in phrasing. Having a non min maxed, rp oriented build might not let you have "more" than whatever is deemed the highest, but it certainly is easier to justify getting that highest whatever with rp backing it up. Or else youre like saying that it shouldn't matter at all what your build is, throw whatever rp you can together and we'll have to approve it. It doesn't matter if you're requesting Sunmaster or Invisible Knife or some custom feats or item tied to RP, build to back it up or not, we gotta give you Bladesong, because lord forbid we upset you.

As a side note, when the heck did "people don't like it" become reasoning enough for something(besides when convenient?). I can recall a half dozen decisions regarding rp and server continuity that we dragged everyone through, general protests aside, because the powers that be felt it was best. I can be wrong, you can be right, or vice versa, but let neither of us sit here like people becoming upset has meant a thing one way or another regarding why a thing should be done or not.

Quote:

Tormak you know full well the difference between a poor build that comes from not knowing any better and a build that isn't min maxed for the sake of rp.

This kind of thing is impossible to quantify when we're talking about something as base as "fear immunity."

The plain fact of the matter is there are some things that do not belong on DC items, and that is how things are being looked at, regardless of build.

Naivatkal wrote:

The plain fact of the matter is there are some things that do not belong on DC items, and that is how things are being looked at, regardless of build.

Exactly. And I personally feel that funky gameplay attributes on oddly specific gear doesn't belong, not now, and defiantly not in the post-freedom Amia.

I always looked at DC's as a way to add flavor to a character. The fact remains is that people using DC's to request stat items or immunities to make a character even harder to kill. I don't particularly care either way how this goes. Some people are running around with skills/ builds that would never, ever get approved anymore. So..be mindful of that when the DM's say you are already too OP and count your blessings you haven't been personally nerfed for balancing reasons. It's a good idea to clear the idea with a DM before you do hours of RP as well, and it will reduce the sting if you get denied. I'm not calling anyone out here, but if the DMs constantly have to remind you that your character is powerful enough, maybe you could work on" non game altering " requests to make your character more interesting, not unkillable. We all know how the mechanics work here. Can we do our best not to exploit them?

“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.”
― Mark Twain

"Submitting to censorship is to enter the seductive world of 'The Giver': the world where there are no bad words and no bad deeds. But it is also the world where choice has been taken away and reality distorted. And that is the most dangerous world of all."
― Lois Lowry

"The worst evil is - and that's the product of censorship - is the self-censorship, because that twists spines, that destroys my character because I have to think something else and say something else, I have to always control myself."
― Milos Forman

In my opinion telling anybody that cant have what they previously purchased through DC is ridiculous and asinine. If a change is to be made on what can be requested in the future fine. Future players and old players still playing at that time can deal with that. However to nerf so much of classes, items and spells already has lost this server players. If you nerf the dc items already bought and payed for you will outright kill this server. So far as i have seen in this thread I have agreed with nearly everything Dark Immolation has said. There comes a point when trying to ballance by subtraction is only going to cause harm. You don't cut your hand off because it hurts, you add a bandage and painkiller. Stop trying to take away from other players because they can either stand up to your own power build or because your non-powerbuild character is no match for their powerbuild. Making everybody equal is lame. Doing so detracts from rp and discourages creative thought.

Are you really comparing item balance to real-world censorship

Commie wrote:

Are you really comparing item balance to real-world censorship

Item balancing in general no. But your perceptions of them yes. I have read so many of these type of topics where people want this or that balanced via nerfing and have no problems with them because bringing the power level down a notch makes sense when things get too out of hand. But the outright removal of items, especially dc items or abilities, is censorship in my opinion and should be avoided. There are far better options out there to anybody willing to look for them.

I suggested changing it to +4 saves vs fear or whatever that effect was.

But blanket immunity to a status effect is dumb and needs to go away.

Commie wrote:

...But blanket immunity to a status effect is dumb and needs to go away.

1) That is entirely a matter of opinion and one many of us do not share.

2) Wizards PnP farunian DnD 3.0 and 3.5, which Amia is suposed to be based off of has races and classes and items in it with total resistance and immunities to status effects. Those publications are far more balanced as is then any server i have ever seen. The main reason no server won't and indeed can't be as inclusive as the books is because of a limit in programming tech and DM's would spend forever trying to keep up with it. Claiming that getting rid of such a huge part of the PnP game is "Balancing" is like saying you know better than all the people in the huge teams that worked to creat 3.0 and 3.5 faerunian DnD.

3) In my opinion simply getting rid of a "blanket immunity to a status effect" because someone thinks it's "dumb and needs to go away" is exactly what Mark Twain was talking about telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. Restricting the availability of it is fine, thus balancing a server, but i will never believe that doing away with anything that large completely is ever good for a server, or a game, that is supposed to be based on rp anyway. All it does is open a door for people to PVP the hells out of people who would rather role play a story than grind.

elmmaster wrote:

Commie wrote:

...But blanket immunity to a status effect is dumb and needs to go away.

1) That is entirely a matter of opinion and one many of us do not share.

2) Wizards PnP farunian DnD 3.0 and 3.5, which Amia is suposed to be based off of has races and classes and items in it with total resistance and immunities to status effects. Those publications are far more balanced as is then any server i have ever seen. The main reason no server won't and indeed can't be as inclusive as the books is because of a limit in programming tech and DM's would spend forever trying to keep up with it. Claiming that getting rid of such a huge part of the PnP game is "Balancing" is like saying you know better than all the people in the huge teams that worked to creat 3.0 and 3.5 faerunian DnD.

3) In my opinion simply getting rid of a "blanket immunity to a status effect" because someone thinks it's "dumb and needs to go away" is exactly what Mark Twain was talking about telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. Restricting the availability of it is fine, thus balancing a server, but i will never believe that doing away with anything that large completely is ever good for a server, or a game, that is supposed to be based on rp anyway. All it does is open a door for people to PVP the hells out of people who would rather role play a story than grind.

Well... after you said...

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Stop trying to take away from other players because they can either stand up to your own power build or because your non-powerbuild character is no match for their powerbuild. Making everybody equal is lame.

I really don't know what you're even getting at anymore. I don't understand what Twain or censorship has to do with anything.

Just a few, quick things.

The necessity for getting rid of immunities on items such as freedom is a stance, not an opinion.

You can't just claim 'you are censoring' when we are trying to actually balance things, and things like perma freedom completely spit in the face of a lot of spells. I mean, you can do that, but that is a really bad argument.

As for your argument about 'balancing PnP' ... it's PnP. With a DM. Sitting right there. Who can change things as needed. And tell you no. Which is what the DMs work to do. Because letting people be immune to shit is just completely boring. I've been immune to things IG. It. Is. Boring. And overpowered. Sorry, but the designers of PnP are not the be all end all, and I am pretty sure I have seen them say that as well.

Last edited by Malkav on Thu, Aug 25 2016, 20:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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The necessity for getting rid of immunities on items such as freedom is a stance, not an opinion.

... Stance, or "One’s opinion or point of view." C'mmon, lets not quibble over terminology.

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You can't just claim 'you are censoring' when we are trying to actually balance things, and things like perma freedom completely spit in the face of a lot of spells. I mean, you can do that, but that is a really bad argument.

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But the outright removal of items, especially dc items or abilities, is censorship in my opinion and should be avoided...

..Restricting the availability of it is fine, thus balancing a server.

He did'nt. He said it is his opinion that flat out removing people's DC items is like censorship. That Balancing things isn't simply taking it all away. Elemental Immunity got changed to 50% Immunity, it wasn't taken out completely.

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Because letting people be immune to shit is just completely boring.

Yes it is.

But taking things out completely is in my opinion just as bad as being completely immune. Reducing the ability to something useful is different. But, that is the whole of my 2 Cents. Chiao.

Naivatkal wrote:

Sorry, but the designers of PnP are not the be all end all, and I am pretty sure I have seen them say that as well.

Pretty much every pnp core rulebook I've ever read (and I have read a LOT of them) has a section saying something along the lines of "If there is something that doesn't work out for you or you wanna change, just change it".

Naivatkal wrote:

Just a few, quick things.

The necessity for getting rid of immunities on items such as freedom is a stance, not an opinion.

You can't just claim 'you are censoring' when we are trying to actually balance things, and things like perma freedom completely spit in the face of a lot of spells. I mean, you can do that, but that is a really bad argument.

As for your argument about 'balancing PnP' ... it's PnP. With a DM. Sitting right there. Who can change things as needed. And tell you no. Which is what the DMs work to do. Because letting people be immune to shit is just completely boring. I've been immune to things IG. It. Is. Boring. And overpowered. Sorry, but the designers of PnP are not the be all end all, and I am pretty sure I have seen them say that as well.

I am in complete agreement with you. You beat me to it.

Tarnus wrote:

Pretty much every pnp core rulebook I've ever read (and I have read a LOT of them) has a section saying something along the lines of "If there is something that doesn't work out for you or you wanna change, just change it".

This is true and a great point. DMs are supposed to be able to do away with stuff in there campains. Just as Amia does by not allowing psyonics. However, if a game is started allowing something and then halfway through a player complains about it so the DM has to change it for the game to continue... that is not right by my thinking.

I am not saying that all efforts at balancing are censorship. I am saying that completely removing something like fear immunity or other status effects immunities is like censorship in my opinion. Rather than completely getting rid of an immunity to balance a server I believe that it would be better to give 50% immunity like the elemental immunities. Or as in the case of fear perhaps give a immunity to the panic and flee fear effect while still making the so - called fear immune character a saving roll to see if they would suffer the penalty to attack bonus and saves like the fear effects in PnP. Any status effect immunity can be made 50%.

Trading a 100% or even a 50% immunity for a piddly save is not balancing, it's over compensation. I am one who believes that if it's supposed to be a racial immunity than it should stay as an immunity, only perhaps a weaker one. If it's a class based immunity like a monk can achieve than it should be obtainable with a ton of rp. Obtainable but harder to get and more expensive. Total removal simply kills rp incentives for furthering a personal character. Leaving only war and relationship rp incentives to drive the player base.

iirc amia has psionics

Is anyone else not a fan of being able to buy immunities?

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