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That Guy wrote:

So you're saying they should get:

8 STR in total.

6 AC in total?

In addition to 2 Con, INT, and CHA.

And 100% resistance...

Sure, it's 20 levels, but, no prestige class gets anything like that. that's +4 AB (Most WM get +3 or +4 from 16 or 19 levels, and most are empty levels, meaning they get nothing else after level 7), and +6 AC... I can't see how that is balanced at all. Plus 20 free skill points, and 30 hit points. I can see maybe +2 str at DD level 2 or even 4, and another +2 at 10, and another +2 at 20, but... no more AC, that's just too much, and +8 total to STR is op, in my opinion.

DD only gets 2 AC pre-epic. And epic DD already gets +2 AC. From the Modified Feats section of RDD:

Draconic ArmorThis feat gives a maximum of +2 AC, rather than +4. Note that an epic RDD still receives the bonus +1 AC at level 15 and 20, meaning that a level 20 RDD would receive a bonus of +4 AC altogether.

From a build standpoint, that +2 AC at DD 20 makes up for the Tumble dump you can't take. Which is why it's not too much of a hassle not being able to skill dump there, but the epic feat selection for Dragon Disciple is awful and other than the RP of being a crazy 20 DD, there's no real incentive or reason to do it. Especially when, as some have mentioned before, powerbuilding is practically encouraged here.

However, I don't agree with another +4 STR in epic. I'd suggest +2 CON and/or +2 INT/CHA, actually. Dragons are known for their toughness and their vast intellect and force of presence as they grow more powerful, and epic DD should definitely reflect that after they put in so much devotion to that bloodline. It would remove the focus on STR only builds and give other builds a chance. Rather than making DD's only really viable as STR-built fighters with Dev Crit.

But, again, that's something that's been discussed till we're all blue in the face. At this point, we need someone with the time and energy to even script anything.

Jes,

I was referring to a 20 DD... they have +4 AC... Raf's suggestion was to add 2 more to that.

I like your idea of +Con or +INT... but, now it's up to the DM/Devs to decide.

That Guy wrote:

Jes,

I was referring to a 20 DD... they have +4 AC... Raf's suggestion was to add 2 more to that.

Woops! I missed that he had said in addition to what they already get. Yeah, I don't think that's a good idea at all, either.

My sugestion is that getting 20 lvls of the class you would get what 20 lvls of the Vanilla class gets since here on Amia the 20 lvls gets 4 less str 2 less ac and 50% less immunity

So here on Amia what the Vanilla gets on pre-epic levels could be pushed to the Epic lvls.

At the risk of being repetitive, I much prefer making it more dynamic than that. An extra +2 AC and +4 STR isn't the way to go to fix the class.

Why only Strength anyways?

Missing Scales wrote:

Karradon wrote:

Also you can Fly which is a -huge- thing, and don't try to claim that it isn't.

I don't know why people are throwing in flight as a major thing. It's cool but it's not like it's limited to the RDD class and it's a total ribbon feat. It's a shiny doohickey that allows for neat tricks. It has no other uses. The only mystique about it is the potential to "break" certain server rules with it. However if you are a responsible player, it's just a fun toy. Like thousand faces, except with less use. I'm not shitting on it, I love it, but I'm being realistic about it.

????

It's exactly the same as shadow jump except with a little bit slower animation? And does it have unlimited uses? Maybe you're not experienced with how useful it is. Can be used for escapes, engages, repositioning, on top of all the cool RP that comes with it.

So while all class changes are on hold right now pending a Hak change there is some good news with regards to RDD. RDD's current changes are all handled through an in game script so modifying it would be workable.

I am going to start up an internal thread to discuss this with the team. No promises though that we decide on an actual change.

praise be

Maverick00053 wrote:

So while all class changes are on hold right now pending a Hak change there is some good news with regards to RDD. RDD's current changes are all handled through an in game script so modifying it would be workable.

I am going to start up an internal thread to discuss this with the team. No promises though that we decide on an actual change.

Oooh! What about shadow dancer?! I know there was talks about this about a year back, and then it vanished.

All other classes would require Hak work so I am afraid not. DD is only possible because of how it is currently being edited and even then the DD changes are limited in what we can do.

You could add properties to SD that rely on similar scripting. A post 10th level boost to Hide/MS/Spot comes to mind.

But that's for another thread, and for both that it seems largely resolved and a lack of desire to, I think I will reserve further comment until such a time that thread exists.

t o u c h e d wrote:

[1]It's exactly the same as shadow jump except with a little bit slower animation?
[2]And does it have unlimited uses?
[3]Maybe you're not experienced with how useful it is.
[4]Can be used for escapes, engages, repositioning,
[5]on top of all the cool RP that comes with it.

[1] Shadowjump is a tad more versatile in regards to LOS issues.
[2] It does not, it is 5/rest
[3]Insulting, considering the amount of questions you have as far as it's mechanics.
[4] Not according to engagement rules on the servers, in PVP. In PVM why bother? Re-positioning *Blows party whistle.*
[5] That's about all the use there is for it. It's fluff. It's also not a feature exclusive to RDD. It's a neat feature, but that is about it, that was my point.

It's not relevant to balance issue discussions.

Missing Scales wrote:

I'm not shitting on it. I love it, but I'm being realistic about it.

Maverick00053 wrote:

So while all class changes are on hold right now pending a Hak change there is some good news with regards to RDD. RDD's current changes are all handled through an in game script so modifying it would be workable.

I am going to start up an internal thread to discuss this with the team. No promises though that we decide on an actual change.

Missing Scales wrote:

blah blah

Fancy list. School me if you would, on the specific set of pvp rules that forbids escaping? Or pretty much any use of wings in pvp, from how you're making it sound. I didn't see it in the rules section, or the in game rules. Maybe I really am the student here.

Guys be civil with each other please. I really don't wish to lock this thread and issue warnings.

t o u c h e d wrote:

Missing Scales wrote:

blah blah

Fancy list. School me if you would, on the specific set of pvp rules that forbids escaping? Or pretty much any use of wings in pvp, from how you're making it sound. I didn't see it in the rules section, or the in game rules. Maybe I really am the student here.

As far as I know once the PVP starts you can use the Wings freely as long as you do not go to areas that aren't able to be accessed without Flight.

If its not that way, then something changed, because I've used Flight in the middle of PVP several times during the Caraigh War...

That's the impression I was under. I was also told yesterday that you could actually fly to inaccessible places as long as it was for escape? But if you started using a bow or offensive scrolls/wands, then it's against the rules. Also buffing/healing in those spots was a unknown. At least from the person I was talking to.

Flying to escape is fine.

Fighting back is not.

Rule of thumb: If the other person can still physically access you, it's fine. This means if you have Flight and you're fighting someone who ALSO has Flight, then you can fly to cliffs and stuff because they can still access you. If you're fighting someone who doesn't have Flight or Shadow jump, then you can't use it because in-egine limitations stop them from ever actually interacting with you.

Okay, so a DD or SD flying or jumping to inaccessible places during a PVP bout is wrong, but... what about just flying or jumping to another spot? I would think that's fair in a fight, but I'm curious.

Coming back in from having fled the thread to interject…

That Guy wrote:

Okay, so a DD or SD flying or jumping to inaccessible places during a PVP bout is wrong, but... what about just flying or jumping to another spot? I would think that's fair in a fight, but I'm curious.

Theoretically? Yes. But keep in mind: flight has a longer duration both to activate (in which you are flatfooted IIRC), to actually occur, and to land than shadow jump; which all-in-total happens over the course of literally two to 2.5 rounds -- with that added .5 very much depending on wether or not you've moved, drank a potion, cast a spell, attacked, or stealthed in that first round.

You can usually get wherever you're flying faster by just walking.

That said, can we move discussion of any further questions of this nature to the Questions and Answers thread? There's not really much need to perpetuate this one further, and I don't want to feel like I'm contributing to/inviting it's perpetuation by popping back in to answer generalized class or flight-related queries. It's producing too much vitriol for my tastes and its purpose has been achieved

That Guy wrote:

Okay, so a DD or SD flying or jumping to inaccessible places during a PVP bout is wrong, but... what about just flying or jumping to another spot? I would think that's fair in a fight, but I'm curious.

My post is pretty straight forward. Are you flying to an inaccessible spot while fighting a person who cannot follow you? If yes, don't do it. If they can get to you, it's fine. There's not any wiggle room for interpretation here.

I have made a total of 2 RDD's here and I can attest that a +2 bump in stats and AC and some resistance to elements by no way makes it on par with say...A WM who has almost as much str, dev crit and a FAR greater critical threat range. The class does not recieve an epic summon that SD have, and flying is on par with Shadow jump. Having made a Ranger it is clear that class, which also can be STR based w/ dev crit gets an epic companion, and a reworked version of BT, couple that with Bane of Enemies and who gives a flying shit as to how much STR a RDD has. You simply cant out DPS them, even with a BG build and divine might. Currently RDD is a flavor build. Period. Its not terribly weak, but it by no means in any position to be a server changer by giving a little love. This is only my opinion, but it is rooted in some fact.

I think that this thread got derailed a bit. I'm also adding this because my above post, after being re-read seems a bit combative. You can't see me smiling. My plans with my current RDD was to take 10 and then finish out fighter heavy. Requesting by RP and DC's later to take fighter levels and add RDD levels, but with perks/widgets which would be specific to his dragon type and signify epic levels of RDD. Of course if this was denied I would just hold what I got as aside from some extra hp, I would lose bonus feats and make myself mechanically broken. Unlike KC, who can't go epic and have benefits to Bard thst with a 5 level requirement make it a damn no brainerx Epic RDD is possible and had no benefits. I would motion that any changes to the class happen after 10 so as to avoid the utterly shameless 4 rdd builds.

I just want to say that comparing any class except AA to a WM for ab is stupid. A WM is supposed to have high ab for a reason he is a master with the weapon he uses. No other class should be able to get the flat ab a WM gets. In regards to the changes to DD class I have posted my opinion on the matter with the rest of the Dev and DM team. I personally think that epic lvl progression should benefit the class more, but any changes to the pre-epic progression shouldn't be made. Also be patient with the process please Mav works overtime to make these kind of changes for you all as well as the rest of the team. Also please stop asking me in-game about updates on the progression, I won't tell you even if I knew and no I won't go bugging Mav about it either. I don't mind friendly questions about things, builds, or even letting me know about bugs and what not (though easier if you post it, cuz I forget sometimes

). Any Dev/DM team related updates and what not I won't tell you about and have gotten a lot tells from folks asking me about it. If I am in-game means I am either lvling some various character up I can't decide on or am trying to rp. Like I said I don't mind OOC chat just nothing to do with updates and Dev related things, unless DMs told you to bug me about it then it is fine.

Double tap! Agreed that no changes should be made pre-epic ,unless you can somehow add RDD to CL and limit bonus feats to mundane, non spellcaster based. Say every 2 lvls of RDD get you one CL. To avoid every caster on the server becoming one because of the obvious AC boost.

Regarding RDD

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