I am agressive, to be sure. This in my opinion has always been better than passive agressive, which is what you generally see. Personally, I value peoples opinions on matters and didn't really want to engage in this thread due to its combustible nature. My belief is that the waning numbers are for numbers of reasons. Conflict with the DM team or disagreement with how they do things is most certainly a reason. So is real life. Many people walked away because they didn't have five or so hours a day it takes to accomplish most tasks on Amia. Solo you can run the Fire Giants in ten to twenty minutes at a casual clip, invite a few more and often you are looking at an hour plus due to rest cycles, deaths, rp, afk's ect. This isn't really a casual game and casual players won't see many "rewards". What I am saying is that there are tons of people that left for a plethora of reasons. Harping on the DM's to somehow fix this is rather irresponsible as the players control most of the climate. Yes. I agree that at times it may seem like the DM's are focused on particular groups (often consisting of playerside DM's), but that is because the nature of the RP conducted is part of a plot line the DM is running. I don't want you to think I take any of this personally or that my behavior IG would reflect anything that is said her, because it wont. What I am trying to say is that smashing the DM's wont fix anything. Players logging in and roleplaying will. If you are engaging in some good RP, tap your wand and see what happens. I'm seriously tired of the negativity that permeates these threads. If you want to fix this, I will see you in game.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

I really like your suggestion/solution Pony. First I'd like to expand on my experience and opinion of this idea of 'cliques separated into areas' and the 'spread of multitude of hubs', which is relevant to why the player count may have dropped.

We have fractions to give players coverage and inspiration on the things players want to do- elves join Winya, druids join the grove, the midgets join Bendir. A lot of people do rely on fraction activity to play here (not everyone)- but it hardly works, autonomously that is. IMO, because fraction leaders are not fulfilling their roles and not fully understanding how their IG presence affects the player base.

I will mention people have busy lives, that's fair enough. But for the many that don't apply to that case, we have high-ranked IC positioned players in their respective fractions who are dependent on other characters. We have these players who only log in pairs. We have these players making too many alts and spreading themselves out too thin (this isn't an attack on altism itself, but why it can be detrimental if you play a character with an important role). I see these reasons as leading to the death of a fraction. I don't need to name any current examples for anyone to figure it out.

Many have vented these issues to me and I figured that it is one the most frustrating things for any new PC who wants to get involved. They can't interact with anyone and get up to date with the current news, whilst the fraction are hiding behind the forums and using skype to plan RP, not logging in game. Eventually, we have a fraction that only logs on for planned player-driven or DM events, without the genuine thought they'll log on just to create some spontaneous RP with old and new characters alike.

Anyway, back to Pony's suggestion. It's pretty clear that if we had more opportunities for everyone that would make people log on. If we don't rely too much on smaller & divided communities. Spontaneous events have been one of the most pointed out fun factors throughout the years, as Guardian mentioned the troll attack, and another mentioned a random encounter at the beastmen cave in this topic. I remember Mercedes-styled plots had effectively brought people together.

The DMs have already mentioned they're accepting applications so... if anyone thinks they can help with that~

--- And it looks like Magiros had a similar thought which I agree with. So +1

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

I think this might be my one and only complaint against the DM team. Of all the major plots I've seen, 9/10 times it's been run by Player-side DM factions. I'm not saying it's not well-deserved, but essentially every time I've been involved in such a plot, it's been run by DM player ideas and supported by DM's controlling things. Non-power-player characters become either just footsoldiers or they're completely ignored in favor of doing what the DM players want.

I have no problem with DM characters running factions. But honestly I would like to see more general involvement from the playerbase in being able to make decisions in events.

Honestly, something cool I'd like to see is like an event where power-players either get captured or can't do anything and it relies more on the "mostly unknowns" to save the day.

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I'm done. Goodbye.

Oooh... I like it. And not for some malicious reason, but for the reasons you present.

Magrios, I don't mean to be rude; but being an active player isn't a subjective term. Just like being an active faction isn't.

They're actively intertwined -- because like Elyon said; we shouldn't be living as a server event-to-event, player driven or DM driven. We should, with spomtaniety, do things like actively pursue ambitions. Unrealistic ones even. In my opinion? Fuck lore and asking for DMs.

I believe if a faction doesn't log in at least twice a week, it can be considered effectively dead; irrelevant to the current player arta, and not making moves with anyone without prearrangement.


I ask for DMs only when there is a rule based or mechanical barrier on it -- and while less such situations could exist (automated Cordor guard killing on attacks within the city ftw ^^), the reality of it is that believing yourself dependent on them is going to make you fail.

Don't let yourself be a cog, don't let yourself be an ungreased wheel. You talk about groups being unacknowledged by the DMs? Get this: if you're actually active it should be impossible to ignore you.


Be absolutely noisy. Talk about things to everyone.


Most important: no, activity isn't a variable. I am not even saying it to be mean, nor to imply that anyone contributing their creativity to the server should be chastized. What I am saying is that in an objective sense of speaking; anyone who is logging in once a month, not really even bothering to forumpost, is objectively not contributing to the server staying alive.



As for Pony's suggestion? I'm thirding that motion. Encouraging people to focus on centers of activity will bring folks together -- and if it's done even remotely correct, it should spike people to take stakes and start conflict.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

All I can really say is that statement did give a good clarity on your perspective. My point, while perhaps a bit over the top with once a month logging, was more meant to be that playing here should not be 24/7 matter. There should be flexibility and understanding for others and possible situations which are the causes, plus not being looked down by because they just log in less than you. Instead, it feels, more often than not, that being away even short periods of time gets you punished.

Active player is a subjective matter. For you it might be twice a week and for someone else active means being there four times a week. I do not remember that in these forums it has been defined what is considered an active player, other than they roleplay and engage others for roleplay. Please correct me if I am wrong and it has been defined by DM team, other than being away for extended time makes you inactive. Which can be for other person just that once per week and a post and for other every day and constant posting. What I do believe is being lost here is that my intention was merely to point out that playing in Amia, should not be made seem like work. That if you fail to show up for a week, you're no longer active player.

Yet, I not once said that a player who logs in once a month should be enabled to take down a city, for example. Nor did I mention anything about factions. What I do mean is that even if that player is logging in once a month, if roleplaying does happen during those times for personal goals, they should be enabled to do it. Not being demanded to logg in more to show they are "more active". After all, everything in consideration: Want to change the world = more logging in than once per week.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

As long as we aren't neglecting, removing, or ignoring other areas for RP there is nothing necessarily wrong with creating a few hubs of activity. But I would strongly caution and remind everyone that the "centralize the server" sentiment of years ago almost killed us. In truth, I am not fond of it. I would much rather DMS go to the source of RP than try to be the centers of it. In short, find players hanging out and animate the world around them. Not everything needs to be a plot or a mini plot. Breathe life into the world not for some goal or end story, but to see what happens.

There is no reason we can't have both though. But as with anything dm related, it depends heavily on DMs being available. RP doesn't and shouldn't depend on dms being around, but given as they are the only ones who can physically alter or animate the world, damn if it doesn't help. I've posited it before and I will again; I love the idea of our DMs having "tours" of duty. A week or so where any time you spend on Amia, that you would have put into your own characters, is put into being DMside. Yes its a lot to ask of a fellow player, but IMO thats part of the job; just because its a volunteer position doesnt mean its any less important or needed.

I would really love if we could make a public Doodle schedule for our DMs. Everyone can see the expected times, and DMs can get a better sense of what times arent well covered. A little more organization and attention there would do a lot more for us than trying to shove everyone into the same 2-3 settlements again.

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I can't agree with this statement more. I absolutely love it when DMs just even do small things like NPC interaction or otherwise, to breathe a bit of life into the world and situation. I know they, of course, can't always be around to do it, but simple things like that go a super long way. In the number of times I've DMed on other servers, this has generally been my own DMing style. Not to say large events aren't needed, but I think unless a DM really has a cool, fleshed out idea, it's better to small things like that. For everything else, I'm a very strong believer in initiating your own RP without the need of a DM.

This has been my two cents.

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Thank you, Mag, for bein' courteous and understanding on me for expressing a perspective at no intention to be detrimental. It's always encouraging for me when something actually is taken as intended instead of for worse than face value.

Also thanks for clarifying. I think I should be clear that such is usually essential for me. Put the way, from the viewpoint, you gave; I completely understand your point -- and so will also re-clarify/amend mine: If you want to make a big wave, expect for 'activity' to mean a lot more of you; and if you don't meet that standard when the rubber meets the road, you shouldn't really be upset if you don't get to make waves.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

Made a new thread regarding my schedule suggestion.

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In reading these posts, there's a popular myth I'd like to debunk. I've responded to those directly asking me things for the most part, and been both specific and vague in my ramblings, but one thread that I've purposefully avoided has really started to grate on my nerves. So I'll talk about it.

There seems to be this idea that those who critique the management of the server (I being one of them) are worried about or need/desire big, focused plots and direct DM supervision/intervention/roleplay. An underlying idea that players who complain want notoriety.

I'm not going to go back and quote every single one of you who has stated this, especially as a few posts up from this DI and Terallis are talking about this seemingly popularized idea. Then on one hand Commie goes on to detail the current status of his PCs in an attempt to show that you can achieve this supposed notoriety without DM involvement, as if that has been someone's explicit desire or goal. So I will not belabor the point. You all seem to agree that, "Those people who are complaining? They want notoriety."

I want to make it EMPHATICALLY clear to those of you who will listen to me that this is not my position. I do not care to have DMs watching my roleplay and I do not need their affirmation. In fact, I have almost always made an effort to avoid cliques and factions and that which most often garners DM attention. I have submitted less than a request a year to the DM Team. I actively avoided leading factions, and only did so for roughly 1/4th of the time I have been on this server. I am not critiquing any of Amia because I care what the Team will do with my characters ICly. I am fully confident in the fact that I have always rolled with the punches, accepted consequences to my characters and that my roleplay is as fun or as serious or as complex or as deep or as whatever as I'd like it to be.

Now to go on. I think both the discontent with the management of the server and the player vitriol is not about the IC, it is not about wanting notoriety or to be accomplished IC. It is about how everything has gotten away from that, and you are all (who are active) doing a disservice to yourselves in clinging to the repeated mantra, "So just forget about it and get IC." You are basing this mantra off of wrong assumptions. This assumption is in fact the very vitriol that is being talked about.

The problems I'm talking about are not IC problems, and it is, in fact, DM Team responsibility to deal with OOC community problems. The loss of the story is not because I'm upset about an IC action. I'm upset that the story arc of the server, the attitude REGARDING roleplay of the general population has deteriorated to a point where the only feedback is "Get IC." When IC is the very thing messed up! I'm upset about the OOC ridiculousness around it. I've been upset about the way requests are handled by the Team for literal years. That's why this thread is OOC. That's why DMs are commenting, mentioning it is stuff they are talking about. Many Teams knew this. This Team still does, but what is obvious is that they can't agree on solutions, and that's a huge reason why everything has currently become so stunted.

It is not the only reason, it is the only STRUCTURAL reason. That's why I talk about it. I can't go in people's heads and fix them. But a community can go in and fix its own structure if it works together.

Amia used to be about acceptance. Let people powerbuild, let people story their lives away, let people gripe and bitch and have gossip fests standing around as long as they're doing it IC and if it's on the forums they're not flaming anyone OOC. It used to be about loose DM Team structure and an emphasis on heavy IC interaction, in whatever manner preferred. This has all CHANGED.

I challenge all of you who are active (DM and player alike) to look at what's going on: the repeated threads, the changes of DMs, the OOC commentary, the fact that so many DMs who quit the Team just leave without a word, even those of you who agree the roleplay of Amia in general is currently amazing- and to think: Are all those old players full of absolute bullshit? Do we care or do we not care about them? Thus, with us new players that want the server to go in this new direction and are active and have a current say, do we care whether they play here? Or people like them do? Do we care about the history this server represents?

Because that's where you're all at. You're getting so far away from what Amia started as, what the story was, what the purpose was, the spirit... I mean, from IC all the way up to OOC management. It's not even itself anymore. The server, The Team or the players. So I challenge you to think what's next. I'm no longer active. I don't really want to give myself a say except my honest opinion (well, as honest as I can get). I wish you would all go back, go back to what it was, but it's not really my decision. It's yours.

Have any of you researched the past? The stories, the IC, The DM Team, the OOC conversations? Your current DM Team? Your current players? I know one person has stated in this very thread they don't care about the past. I caution you against that.

Have any of you looked to see how many of these players have a history here or how many are new, how many current DMs have made player feedback threads, who have taken time to listen to you or who have held OOC discussions to mediate trust and player cohesion?

Do you want any of these things? Or do you just want everyone to shut up and to go back to your newest version of a world you've created upon Amia which is NOT what I see Amia as? Of course you can keep the name Amia whatever you decide, but I encourage you not to keep the name Amia if you keep down the current path, because you are no longer Amia.

This kind of conversation used to be a regular thing in actual OOC areas, back in the day. The spirit of Amia. Why it was split from Arelith, etc, etc. Then gradually these conversations got relegated to the forums, or Skype. People who remember the times faded away.

Now, in the past few years, the only DM to really take player feedback into direct consideration is SamTheGiantSlayer. She is the singular DM still on the Team who has made a thread asking you all for your opinions and actually incorporating it into what she does, instead of staying silent, saying "What?" or making commentary like "Send me a PM."

Faction leaders used to hold regular OOC input and threads to make sure people were doing okay, because we are here for fun, and to support one another. To enjoy ourselves with a story. IC was the focus, but OOC still existed.

Now, many of the faction leaders don't seem to care about OOC feedback. It's pretending the OOC doesn't exist or literally only existing for the OOC communication of scheduling events and then telling everyone else to, "Just get back IC!"

I mean, is any of this even making sense to any of you?

Sigh.

Anyways, it's not about DMs f-ing noticing us. At least not me. I've been noticed before. I actually have had a lot of influence on Amia, in my long tenure. I'm not looking for that back. I'm trying to help you. If you don't want to listen, that's okay, but if you don't listen I urge you to acknowledge that it's because you are now a changed community. Not because old players have all this shit they need to gripe over just to ruin your day. Otherwise you're really only hurting yourselves.

I care about Amia, even when inactive. I care about what it was, what it becomes, what it represents. I didn't post here to ruin anyone's day. I care because selfishly, the name matters to me, but also, I was trying to help you.

Basically just log on and do stuff. Though it would be slick if a big bad DM antagonist just swept in and started doing shit.

The ant alarm 2.0 mav ran really motivated people and it was a blast. Was also pretty player driven.

Anyway, wizard school is still open in the meantime. If you wanna do some arcane wizardy shit just hit me up.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Estara I would like to thank you for well phrasing some of my own thoughts as well as Im sure those of many other former players Ive known, and in a clearler way than my own ramblings.

To all current players: listen to Estara. That was absolutely beautiful.

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Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."



(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)

I would DM even if you took every DC I had right now and never gave me a DC ever again. This is a stupid argument to make. The amount of sheer time you put into being a good DM is essentially a full time job. PS: you don't get DCs for the amazing amount of forum and skype work that comes along with the DM job that, if you are a good DM, you are probably also doing 7 days a week.

I don't argue that being a DM isn't fantastic or that we are not well paid (we are very well "paid" when we are on the clock - much of DMing is off the clock but still needs to be done), but this really is sour grapes to pull.



This is bullshit. Sammy made the thread because of a full team initiative. Every active DM on the team currently is constantly taking player feedback into direct consideration. Many of them during my return tenure did the same. Just because you don't see giant forum threads every week soliciting opinions doesn't mean people aren't being spoken to. This sort of statement is disingenuous and works to break the spirit of trust that you claim the DMs need to have to function.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Let me sum this up for you. Estara, thank you for being somewhat constructive and using some eloquence. You won't see much of the latter from me, because I prefer to speak plainly and not come at people sideways. To some of the others: This is my point, and why I became agitated. You can't back peddle after taking a big hand full of shit and smearing it all over someone's face. You can't (and I will abbreviate the sentiment) say "I'm unhappy, it's the DM's fault and they are just here for dream coins." and then walk away when someone with a level head makes a point without PLAINLY insulting someone else. That is childish. You should be ashamed. It's one thing to discuss these matters privately, but to do so on a public forum...well. On top of that, these people will professionally attempt to not hate your guts after such character assassination. It's not even about the server being empty at that point. It's a bitch session you decided to jump into. Mind you, from behind the safety of your computer screen. I promise you in real life those big ole' balls would shrink quite a bit if you said these things to someones face. If you decide to post on a topic which such potential for volatility try to be creative in the future, rather than peter slap and entire group in the face who actually have the ability and do try to make things better.

Oh...and I will stand by and say that my creativity is not being sapped because I don't have a dm watching my wvery move. I kinda just log in and RP. Really..counter argue that all you want, but that is what should be the draw anyway.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

That being said. I would like to apologize to those above me, who I literally just offended. In the future I will make an attempt to have some coffee before going full retard.
Or.....[url] https://youtu.be/JDGyWyvNSio/ [url] full Sangham.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

I have a love/hate relationship with your post, Estara

Let me address one thing I liked: the part about attitude. It's broader than you made it, and I suppose I haven't been clear saying it vaguely before but now I have a springboard to work off of.

Advance spoiler is -- you're unintentionally and non-maliciously a contribution.


The player attitude right now seems to me to be using an intense degree of distorted thinking, assuming that because of things they observe that the DMs are not all working as a collective for what is collectively best for us and never will/are incapable of it. Now. I'm blunt. I'm an ass. But I trust the team. I trust that anything I send any DM right now will go to the DM forum, get bounced around, and get a reply. Do I have a history to prove it? Not really. But here's the question: how is this supposed to improve if we aren't ever willing to provide benefit of the doubt? We have to address the problems we have directly -- and in my opinion if you aren't playing anymore anyway, you have no reason to worry about getting forumbanned and nothing to lose if you want to use your last hurrah to give an honest 'here's why'. Do it in a PM if you have to. But don't proceed to be the one to tell me 'why bother' because you're afraid to speak up and too bitter to be transparent.


This 'non observation-therefore-non existence' logic applies to each-other too. I'm for one highly offended by being told that I somehow don't care about other players' OOC feedback within my faction, and I definitely don't like being told I don't care about outside feedback (about anything but 'kick out _____ because he's bad') either.

What you don't see is the faction forum post that I made after telling someone who was being toxic to my faction to improve their attitude or leave.

What you don't see is the thread where I acquired timezones, the tells and party chats corresponding on new plot ideas, the think-tank

I 100% care about OOC feedback and I refuse to have myself or any other factionleader spit fire on -- and what I consider unfortunate is that I can say that and not be calling you out: you aren't the only one. I can link posts that weren't even pulled down where people had the nerve to tell me I am either a PvP whore or out to destroy server fun -- and I can copypaste sections of OOC tell text where people have been uncompromising or otherwise non-patronizing. This is 100% a problem and it needs to stop.


What's happening, from my perspective, is that what you're calling the 'story' is that of Amia's past; specifically, of a time when I wasn't here that people weren't paranoid about people being out to get one another. The problem there isn't DMs alone. It's active players drawing hasty conclusions (I am admittedly guilty of this). It is that there are selective people who still hang around with the pretense of wanting to come back that actually just want to be parasitic on the motivation of new blood -- like vultures waiting to peck a corpse. It's the DMs 'too' for taking some of the stuff players say on the forums and massively extrapolating its bearings and implications.

And all of it has everything to do with some of you people not wanting to literally just set the past aside, and make peace. That's what I meant by forget. Nobody wants to do that, so conversely that 'story' you asked us to remember? It's being destroyed by you implying we lost it -- but it's also being destroyed by not taking the core of your point to consideration, a paradox as that is. I don't want people to 'get IC' as in stop talking to one another and being constructive: when I say it, I want everyone to think 'stop being a literal degenerate asswipe and do something that improves people's experience, because your wonderful vocabulary of insults and demotivation isn't'.

Forget the past. Open up. Learn to trust. Give tje DMs and one another a chance. Stop caring about history; learn from it, but don't assume it will 100% happen again


Now let me get on to my part because I think it's hypocritical to say to grow some balls and not toss my own 50 cents on the team. I honestly think everyone here is spoiled by DM attention. None of you is doing that wrong at all. All of you take questions individually, comments individually, requests for attention/oversight individually, and individually post your piece of mind about requests.

All this. Individually. On a singular level, all of you is fine and nothing is imho wrong.

What I am seeing though, is that the thing I gave as an example for people to assume cause improve and not to dwell on is your biggest problem: communication, agreement, and compromise. Not with the players, with each-other.

I will, out of respect, not provide any statement from any individual DM that stands out, but a lot of you don't trust others on the team to handle your material. You don't trust one another to make good judgements and to have tried to work with what you have in some cases. You need to trust that everyone in the team can step up to the plate at any task -- administrative or plot DMing; and if there's any widespread consensus someone can't, then they need to leave or be delegated to managing solely plot/solely administration -- so they can stop being wasted on stuff they can't do.

You need to communicate more. I don't want to hear about people not 'handling' someone's ban or unbanning, but I have. I don't want to hear about DMs not being conscious about the goings on in an event another DM ran which had long-term impact, but I sure as all hells have -- and the DM who wasn't consulted is usually pissed. Don't shut each-other out. You have a forum we can't see. You have it for a reason.

You need to compromise -- with eachother and with players. There's a lot of argument that goes on behind a DM decision and the problem I see is that nobody in any situation I have heard about (again nonspecifying) wants to try and meet in the middle. If there's anything less than a consensus, it's a yes or no vote. If that vote doesn't yield a majority, the entire thing falls to the wayside. That's simply not the right way to address these situations. There had ought to be discussions about meeting in the middle, and ways to; wether that be on an appeal, on a DM quest, on a DC request, or anything that has to be a DM decision. Constructive input. Input everyone contributes to. The idea that "my way or the highway" is a thing has to go, and highly divided consenses should be met with discussion of what can be kept and what can be snipped.

As far as with players; many of you do, but you aren't transparent. The DMs that are relatively transparent look better and more personable for not fearing the community knowing their opinions; and the fact that I can't say the whole story on any of this without defaming or patronizing any specific DM had ought to not be the case and should actually be unfortunate -- because in my opinion if everything you had ever sent as a tell/pm/forumpost in the normal AND DM forums were to be wiki leaks style seeped into the public eye tomorrow; it should be a non-worry, because outside of plot progress (spoilers), there should be nothing to hide.

Communication to either players or DMs had also ought to be done by every DM. Abstaining should come with word of abstaining. Disapproval, wether of another DM/their point or the same of a player, should be voiced without acting like the gestapo will swoop in for it. Don't be timid, and admin fearlessly.


I think if everyone here did these things we could all get along with a new server much easier -- and if new players REALLY took my words to consideration and put the past behind them the way I said to, they would come to appreciate what it is too; and given a little faith, I think the DM would become more motivated to consider their job a non-burden that pays on virtue of its fulfillment.

Unfortunate stuff has happened and will happen, but we are all literally people trying to enjoy our time and nothing will move along if we don't learn to get along; and further, in refrain of my last post, to team up to generate stories through organizing events that aren't sheltered by an NPC guardwall and communicating with one another about constructive and considerate terms around spontaneous conflict.

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

To clarify that statement was made in regard ro Maverik carelessly claiminging that All DMs cared "as much IF NOT MORE" than the players. Which is an offensively careless statement to make regardless of intent, further bolstering this was his statements essentially blaming player loss on a "lack of player incentive" all while either defending his own actions (which is fine) or dismissing things as an issue if past DMs.

The DC point was brought up as DMs and players in support of them often espouse how it is such a burden or hardship, when frankly it provides a number of benefits and is a fully freely offered postion that can be turned down or retired from.

The act of DMing in terms of RP is one of the perks, not the downsides, it allows a level of interaction. And possibility to make the word come alive for players and just the server itself that cannot be done as a player. If you dont view it as a perk I would highly question why you want to DM in the first place.

Forum moderation? Requests? Player mediation? Certainly these other things are tasks but ones taken on freely and hardly this most burdensome of lists. Especially when in terms of moderation and player mediation those are tasks players often cover just as much of. (Either on amia or in the case of more than a few factions their own dedicated forum)

Really if it is too burdensome a job that even the seeming mention of criticism causes this level of backlash then either they need to recruit more DMs or question why its a burden to them and if they really are happy doing it. And if not then Retire.

I stand by any statement I make, and approval of a well phrased comment that reflects part of what I was trying to express constructively doesnt negate a word of what I have to say, simply my own acknowledgement that my own phrasing is blunt and often taken as meaning offense. I generally try to continue any dissagreement or rant I have for a DM if it seems it is getting into anything purely in PMs as to not derail topics however if people like Tormak then just ignore valid points in a thread to instead just react to things they see as attacks then I feel the need to comment here.

As it is essentially taking my comments as attacks and using offence at that to defend some imagined insult rather than FIX ISSUES.

Riight, well that is your perspective.

Glad to hear that there is DM activity behind the scenes. Can I ask what is the major holdback from DM point of view then? I think the atmosphere of the server has been rather well displayed during this conversation, or so many will take it or possibly will take it. I don't even care for the DM's receiving DC's for the work they do. You give something, you get something in return.

In my opinion, which is just that, major issue has been exclusivity of events. How certain thing get covered by only certain group and can then they decide how it is ran and who are included. I have not seen much change in this regard, but perhaps it is just a lack of experience after coming back, well coming back more or less. Often other parties don't have time availability due to different party doing major things in the plot to even try to get in.

EDIT: That is a perspective was on the one before Great Equalizer post.

EDIT 2: And before The post above his. <.<

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Well I might as address this publicly and repeat what we talked about over PMs.

My statement was simply to let people know that the DMs aren't some towering figureheads who don't care about the server. We love it. That has zero impact upon the work, efforts or considerations of anyone else on the server. The playerbase is the most important factor in making this server great. In the end we must work together. I am sorry if it came out or felt like something other than that.

I am also most certainly not dismissing the problems purely as actions of past DMs, but there is some resentment present about actions of the previous DMs. Most of those past DMs don't even play currently or are on the team, so I literally cannot do anything about the past. We have to take an initiative from today on wards to improve and stop being so toxic.

I am also not disregarding anything the current team might of or has done. I am reading your feed back.

A discussion like this is suppose to be a two way street. I attempted to explain what we did in the background, and some of the points I see. Some of them are valid critiques of the playerbase and you shouldn't disregard them thinking I am trying to push the blame on the playerbase. I recognize that we have had/have some DMs that have utterly dropped the ball and failed at their job. Once again though this is a two way street so if you want to give critique you should learn to accept it as well. I am taking what you guys say to heart, I hope you might do the same with some of the stuff we say.

We need players who actively keep us informed, up to date, and bug us about getting help. We are not omnipotent and the playerbase needs to communicate. The players who are communicating to us, and sometimes even excessively so, are the ones we are aware that require DM support so we provide it. Bug us constantly, I am begging you to. How else do you expect us to know you are doing anything half the time? Definitely the people in the off time zones, please, bug us!

Also last thing of note, please don't diminish the work I do. That, "Forum moderation? Requests? Player mediation? Certainly these other things are tasks but ones taken on freely and hardly this most burdensome of lists. " is by far one of the most burdensome. We can spend anywhere from 10 to 20 hours a week dealing with all of these and more. All of these are dealt out of game too so we do not even have the pleasure of being in game to interaction with the playerbase. Just because this is a volunteer position doesn't mean you have a right to disregard or diminish the work that people put into it. There is a reason we have a high turn over of DMs. It is a lot of work, it requires a huge investment of time, and it can be mentally draining.

Before you twist my words, I am not saying you can't critique us because everyone should actively seek criticism and improve themselves based off of it. I am just simply saying please don't casually say that all of the stuff I spent hours of my free time doing isn't burdensome, or suggest that I can just not do it if I wanted to. I would become that problem DM if I took that latter advice.

I personally keep doing it because I want you all to enjoy yourselves and have fun. Communicate with me and ill do my best by you. Even if you are working with another DM and they are failing to communicate, please contact other members of the team. We can then take the steps to inquire to what is happening with said DM or pick up the plot where the other DM left off. Even if you get assigned a DM for your faction, plot, idea, etc doesn't mean that you cannot use the rest of the team when issues arise.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

My question is: What relevance or correlation does DM activity truly have to do with players logging on? Even if they all went away and never came back, I would still log in to RP with the people I enjoy playing with. I guess that's why I have a hard time with this thread and the sentiment of so many posters. I don't think it's broken..I think folks moved on. Maybe there is some sort of secret Amian OOC underground on Skype I am not aware of..where War is waged and alliances are formed? Yeah? Well maybe that's the problem. Too much OOC and not enough IC. I beg the current players to put this 50lb bag of salt down and just come play with me. I liked it much better when in game no one talked about the forums.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

I'm with you and SOA. Let's just try to move forward, play, have fun. Too much OOC is bad for this game. I said it when I saw it's widespread use, Skype will be the downfall of Amia. But, that's another topic. I'm trying to enjoy Amia still, I hope everyone else does too.

After 272 replies to this post... I think it's done it's duty. Amia isn't really all that quiet, we just have a lot of past to get over so we can all just hang out and play together again. It has to start somewhere, I say... now. But, that's just me, I do this for fun, and I want to continue doing this for a while longer.

#NeverUsedSkype

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I use it, but mostly one on one.... been burned by "groups" in the past, so I tend to avoid them.

as someone whose done internet admining for random internet groups for 10+ years, shit like skype and discord tend to tear things apart.

i consider them chatting with no permanency, as in, you get invited into a group chat, and it took 0 seconds to make that group chat, anyone can make any number of them at any time.

so what ends up happening is groups splinter. you have someone who doesn't like person X, and feel that room Y is too big, so they make super secret room Z and only invite some of room Y. Flash forward a month and room Y is almost silent, mostly everyone chatting is doing it in secret room z. then people find out about room z and the whole group is mad as fuck. then another room gets made and bitter people stay bitter.

I see it over and over and over. I say I never used skype but I have long ago in the past, and that was a huge theme. get invited into a chat. people ask if im the real 'commie,' I say that I am, and suddenly im invited into several super secret chats that are all splintered from the main one. I see two or three names in all of them, ask them whats up with all this, and hear about 9 separate private feuds that the feuding parties will never address with one another, meaning one chat room is now over 5 and many people are oblivious to their exclusion.

it's why I stick to 'permanent' chatting channels now. voice hosted servers you have to connect to like team speak that you can't just fuck off and make your own without expending some real effort. so people actually have to work out their issues because they can't just make a new room. leads to much more sable internet communities.

just my thoughts from someone who'se been doing this internet chatting for years.

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>Condensing my 5 paragraph points
>Concluding from the entirety of it the same overgeneralized 'stay IC'
>Somehow infer I am down talking all OOC
>Uses Skypegroups for scheduling as well as opinion-exchange/brainstorming and is open about it

O-ok :^]

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Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers

I have avoided a lot of the thread because cant say what you really think anyway and stuck with minor comments on things, so don't expect long as posts on my part.



This notion is flawed in the current setting of how the staff is run. "Forum moderation? Requests? Player mediation? Certainly these other things are tasks but ones taken on freely"

If the some DMs think the same as you and some of them I think do from the lack of replies on the request forums that slows down so much stuff and hinder the request forums causing players to get pissed off and see even more favoritism in the staff when some requests get passed in the blink of a eye and others waiting weeks because only 2 DMs have posted but they need (( or needed 50%-75% of the staff weigh in or at least post))

I had a public request for a item over a span of 4 weeks only TormakSaber and Amarice-Elaraliel had replied to it.....that bugs players, I say at that point if the DMs don't care to respond they abstain their vote and if 2 DMs responded to the thread and said it was fine it just gets passed.

Because think when stuff like that happens you aggravate the player with limited or no replies, player then has to hound the rest of the staff to post be it player/DM client side or forum PMs... or the DMs who did replied have to do causing more friction with them having to poke the DMs to do their part to get requests passed and stop clogging the pipe.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I leave a request up for a week. If no one replies after a week I just assume that it's because the dms don't want to do it and pull the request, perhaps resubmitting it later.

Why ask someone to do something they don't want to do?

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In the example I used it was not a request for them to do anything other then approve or disapprove the item/balance..... about as many or less words then your post in reply to mine was all that was needed.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Oh I know what you mean.

But you gotta remember the dms move slow. I think Belanoth was locked for over a year waiting on the dm team to unlock the door;the base was made and added but the door was locked and they had to wait a year to get a key or the door opened. Anytime I think about complaining about the pace, be it an item or plc or spell widget request, I just remember the lead developers signature:

"If you don't like my answer, suck it."

And remind myself it's an all volunteer staff that doesn't owe me or anyone else anything. Sheeler's sig helps me keep my expectations realistic.

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Because your a troll I will just assume you are ignoring plain to see effect of that.....the whole reason of the thread and peoples posts. Over all thread + your logic


Server population and activity is going down as players are leave----> People are unhappy with stuff ----> Well voice it out so it can be addressed maybe ----> People do such ----> Other bash them or Commies fail logic of don't like it leave basicly.===========We go right back to the start of the circle of people leaving/low activity.....

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I'm not trolling you I'm in complete agreement.

I'm just venting my frustrations with how I feel when I'm forced to 'nag' people over essentially dumb videogame stuff.

It is slow. I don't know why it's slow. I don't know why people can't just look at the requests board and sign stuff off two or three times a week as some DM's do. And I really have no idea how some basic requests can sit for weeks without even acknowledgement. It's frustrating as heck.

But the dms are all volunteers. That's what I just remind myself of when stuff just doesn't get done.

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And this is why I think some minor changes to how the requests work could make DMs and players lives a lot smoother such as removal of the need for half or 3/4th of the DMs to reply to a thread after a set amount of time of no reply.
If the thread is being bumped every week/being talked in and a bunch don't post just assume they don't care so if only a single DM agreed and no one else said anything.... pass the request after 2-3 weeks because if had problems with they would have voiced it.


Another side note with requests that would ease a lot of time with investment is put in would be a list of acceptable spells and in what form much like they did with feats.
As some DMs and players know I have worked on a lot of research to produce a wide number of item spawners that I have yet to request in some cases because its hard to know what spells they would allow and a sheer number of spells would make it very hard to ask about each spell one by one.

This could also help DMs do event items with more degree of comfort of if it would be acceptable and not just toss out a standard epic loot drop.

Example ((not reflect balance at all))

Very Likely (in a reasonable combination)
Medium (needs a good reason and reasonable combination)
Unlikely, but not impossible. (needs a really good explanation and counts much powerwise)
Never

Item being viewed as use per day on a item, where Consumable its assumed you are requesting a item spawner so in theory could mass produce them/spam them that would effect balance in effect ways. DM single time spawning as flavor would be different.

◾Harm = Item, Consumable.
◾Heal =Item, Consumable.
◾Shapechange =Item, Consumable.
◾Storm of vengeance =Item, Consumable.
◾Summon creature IX =Item, Consumable.
◾Time stop =Item, Consumable.
◾Mind blank =Item, Consumable.
◾Greater magic weapon =Item, Consumable.
◾Flame weapon =Item, Consumable.

Having a list like that would take time to have all the DMs/Devs sort out but I think it would be so worth it in the end because it would be a one time investment as we are not getting a bunch of new spells we have what we have.
Players could see goals they could attempt instead of doing RP only to be told OOC balance says no and no amount of RP would have changed it. it would let the players and DMs focus on the RP and merits of the request instead of back and forth with balance, players digging up past requests for examples and current items.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

That's kind of sad, but I understand the feeling. Keep in mind, though, many DMs have owned up to the fact that requests being left unanswered for long periods of time is a failing that needs to be(and I assume is being) addressed. Once more, I feel we can all be empathetic to the fact that this is a game and we have lives, but when someone accepts a position like DMing, like a moderator on any number of online forums, there's an expectation of doing what is needed, as it is needed.

And I don't feel like it's necessarily the DMs' faults. It's not as if they've magically dropped the ball on doing a job that was done perfectly in the past. But the server has evolved and naturally so has its needs and the wants of the playerbase. Honestly and as a quick aside, I feel like where this started was not with decreasing numbers, but the powershift of increasingly having to get direct OK's from the DMs to do more and more things. That much the team invited on themselves. But as time went on, folk came to have a certain expectation that a DM was going to be involved if something was important or "legitimate." Features of the server didn't change without pre-pre-approval from the team to attempt to change them, encounters or efforts weren't valid without an already given rundown. We as a playerbase got both a little bit lazy and a little bit gun shy. We're constantly expecting(and needing) DMs for either affirmation and OK's both forumside and gameside, but there just doesn't seem to be enough DM to go around.

At that point we have to ask ourselves, what do we need from our DMs? What is easier to change, the wants and behavior of the playerbase or our expectations of the DMs? We could stand to do a bit of both. If DMs cannot be around more or fulfilling all their obligations currently is too hectic, then maybe shift some of that power back to the players, encouraging them to do things on their own without fear of it not mattering. If we still want that tight grip on what happens, then lets invite more DMs topside, so all the jobs we want done can actually get done in a timely matter. But this middle ground of not-enough-DM-jam on our player sandwich and not-enough-player-bread to warrant more dm-jam isn't great for anyone.

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Honestly? I think all we really need is requests handled in a timely manner, and faster module updates.

When you can see progress it's easy to keep people motivated. When you're having to explain for the 10th time that the door still isn't unlocked and you know it's going on 5 months it starts to get really hard to keep people motivated.

This doesn't mean shit needs instant turnover, but quick updates are possible. We did the ant alarm in bendir, and within hours the whole area was re-done with new npc's and plc's and all kinds of shit. It was reverted back quick as well. It's possible to move that quickly, so it needs to happen more once stuff is 'approved' or deemed acceptable.

Requests too, assuming there are an equal number of secret requests made as public ones, you're looking at 5 a day, tops. Is saying, 'before you log on as a dm, please check requests and yay/nay/ask for info?' something we can have people do?

Nobody likes to be a nag. That's why so many of us let shit slide forever. If the DM team could be more Johnny-on-the-spot, well, it would be a huge improvement.

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As far as updates go we need more Devs. We have Dicey and myself basically atm. That is it.

DMs jobs are mainly focused on the plots, requests, etc. I already invest a lot of time on the dev stuff as is but we need players who are willing to invest into development for the server. If you can follow instructions, actually do what you say you can, and are willing to take direction then we will welcome you. We compensate the Dev team now as well.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

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I bring up personal examples because I think them better to made up hypothetical ones

Well see that's the thing some people are not good/quick with the toolset or have limited time to devote into it, but I think if players could do minor map things and submit them at their own rate and if its personal stuff they might move quicker or not get grumbly if its only taking as long as they themselves make it.

I made a post on the Caraigh life thread on Tue 08 Mar, 2016 where I posted "blue prints" of the layout for the Inn renovations I don't have much time or skill with the toolset but as seen here


You can see I made the layout in the toolset and in the 7 months I could have played around with it added everything more or less at my own rate, but because the current ruling players cant submit maps there was no point to do anything other then show the lay out. Some players don't want to be dev team because they know they are not up to par but can still help reduce the weight on the team so they can focus on other things.

If I or another player could have finish the Inn and submitted it to be checked over that save the current over worked devs from doing it and that logic applies to all things lots of players taking little bites out of your work instead of hoping for a new dev to take a giant bite.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

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Mav just said they need builders. Join the build team.

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Also Corpyx brought up the good point that many don't want to or can't full-on join the team. I happen to believe that player submissions would probably help. The toolset isn't super hard to use for basic area building, and devs could check and modify for quality control, which takes less time than fully building it.

We have guest storytelling, maybe guest building is a next possible step.

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Then you're just encouraging people to learn the toolkit so they can build stuff for their friends as opposed to the benefit of the server. Building "my" tower as opposed to the "requested" tower.

Building stuff for yourself is really bad in general. Why not make your own stuff as bling as possible? If you're building it yourself for you and your friends, why be modest?

With a neutral builder, ie someone not in the faction/group, you get that. You get unbiased structures that reflect the RP work done.

What kind of work do you get when you just have your friend who knows the toolkit build your faction base so you can hang out with them?

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I highly doubt if player submissions was a thing we would allow them in without scrutinization. It's not hard to look at a submission and go 'lolno'. Takes five minutes, including loading it, if it is obvious, maybe maybe a half hour for longer. And they would probably have to be approved additions first, anyways, to control the flow.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

accept your failing to take into account that the full time as you call it "neutral builder" still checks it over... the DM who over saw the RP for it and everything to keep you on the level, and if you pull that crap they just decline it and say you cant do it anymore((submit maps)).

So your point becomes moot.

Player A,B and C all have DM passed requests for map changes lets say a Dev can do one request a week so that's a total of 3 weeks, if player A can do the tool work themselves and player C is slow but will do it themselves and take two weeks..... Dev just has to do player B's request and look over A and C's that would be quicker then doing it from scratch themselves devoting more time on other projects or having to work less time and not burning out then having limited Devs having to take on boat loads of work.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

... no it doesn't, because then you still end up with essentially a dev/builder who is only building things for them and their friends.

Do you not see that as a problem?

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Yes its moot and not a problem at all because it benefits the server..... the players are not Devs or builders they are just players taking small bites out of work yes it helps them to a degree but if the dev request is passed by the DM meaning the work is on the list to get done who the hell cares who does it.....

It means the people who cant do it themselves or knows a player who can do the work gets to the dev team faster because everyone else who has as you put it "building things for them and their friends" will do the work themselves and it will not be on the Devs work list.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

"Factions" getting all the attention is already one of the bigger perceived issues. How do you think it's going to go when one faction is the only faction getting consistent area updates because they happen to have a toolset savvy friend in the group? It would just widen the gap. It's an awful idea. You should simply not be DMing for groups you have PC's in and you shouldn't be building for friends or for groups you have friend/PC allies's in.

Letting friends build shit for friends has all the problems of team-favoritism except the 'offending' player, since they aren't a dev or a DM, isn't under any obligation to do anything but blatant favors for friends, building stuff for friends and only friends. It's a terrible, terrible idea. If you want to learn to build to benefit the server become a dev builder and do the work as the team tells you to do it. That would actually help the team out.

Allowing "guest builders" is literally saying, "I want to help my friends on the server get what they want, but that's it. Only my friends." It's an awful concept. Either build for everyone you aren't involved with, or don't build. It's the only way to keep it fair. The only way to not have a conflict of interest.

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Commie you either skipped over my comment on the matter, or I successfully made it to your list. I'm assuming, though, that you missed it (since it should alleviate some concerns):

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming