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#StraightOutaAvernus
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 Posted: Tue, Nov 08 2016, 22:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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I'm probably going to get booed out with tomato slinging for this, but EDodge being the Dex capstone that requires as little feat investment as it does and is beholden to no chance of failure has kept STR at a lower tier for a while.
A thought: what if it was a tumble skill check (or reflex save) against the opposing attack roll?
Failed saves prompt a roll against the damage of the attack for half.
It makes sense deriving from defensive roll combined with improved evasion.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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That Guy
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Posted: Tue, Nov 08 2016, 23:01 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I can see that, but... since you can put tumble to 33, then add 15 for dex, then with a bit of gear, you're right back at nigh-unstoppable again. Also, do you mean only on the first hit of a round or all hits?
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Tue, Nov 08 2016, 23:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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That Guy wrote: I can see that, but... since you can put tumble to 33, then add 15 for dex, then with a bit of gear, you're right back at nigh-unstoppable again. Also, do you mean only on the first hit of a round or all hits? The first attack in a combat round for the attacked that would otherwise successfully hit, as it is currently. And yes, you could gear it; but that's the point: you would have to. That's gear you aren't putting into discipline or fortitude to be better at a fighter's job than a fighter is. You would also now be beholden to the based god of rolling 1s. _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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That Guy
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Posted: Tue, Nov 08 2016, 23:42 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I hadn't considered the failure on a 1. Hmm, I kinda like the idea.
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robbi320
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 7:49 AM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Considering autofailure... I don't like it. There were times I thought 'maybe it would be better without ED'. But If we're looking at balance, it kills Assassins even more than they are now. An Assassin needs 6SD and one epic feat, or 18 Assassin, using both epic feats, or 10 Rogue and Epic Feat, or 13 Rogue to get ED. You could argue that it would reduce the neccessity of it, but you would just nerf the class. Maybe, if you would give them a different feat. On a WM, yeah, ED is not much feat investment. On a high Assassin? Yes.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 8:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Assassin has always been the 'worse rogue'. It doesn't carry Assassin as a tier above when you remember that a rogue gets it for a 13 level investment of virtual costlessness -- and if they're a monk they get it with even less.
This isn't a reason to keep Epic Dodge as an insurmountable defense. This is, instead, a reason to actively improve the class.
Maybe by *gasp* -- making the death attack target all three saves to start with. Something, anything; just let's please not look at Assassin as a reason to keep even true striking weapon masters from being able to hit their DEX based counterparts.
Epic dodge, in its stock form, was meant for either a 40 level high magic environment, or a 30 level low magic one. I can't change my stance on this.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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robbi320
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 13:01 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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All I meant that ED kind of is a part of balance now. I did make my point poorly, sorry.
I'd love to remove ED as a 'required feat' on anything that can take it. On the other hand, like removing tumble, it's an intrinsic part of the server. We all know that Assassin is bad? Then we propose to nerf one of the few things it can do. Either buff Assassin with something else, or don't nerf it. To be honest, if you gave me one other useful feat, let's say +3 on DCs for Assassin stuff (Like Epic Spell Focus) I'd take that and crippling strike. Or something completely unique? My character would lover another stat debuff along the lines of Crippling Strike and Called Shot. But we can't just nerf a third of the build styles because half of those are op. Anyone here ever play League of Legends? Better nerf Irelia.
In order to nerf ED, you'd have to look what is affected, and how to balance around that, making a terrible class even more terrible.
I'm not trying to say keep ED as it is. I'm just trying to get people to think about balance here. Balance isn't making the op things worse. It's about making everything perform well enough in its nitch, so that you don't play one thing over another because it is stronger. If you only want to nerf Dex WM, maybe ED isn't the thing to change. Maybe look at why else they are strong. I honestly don't understand what makes them good, because to me they look terrible on paper. I mean, where do you get damage? So I don't know what needs changing. But a blanket change to things that don't need to be nerfed? I don't like that.
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 16:12 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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tumble and ed are too ingrained.
ed has the problem of either being the best or not worth taking, it doesn't really have a middle ground based on what it does and the nature of dnd.
either way it's far too much work/manpower to do things NOW like remove tumble, ed, etc. so that's pretty much the end of it.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 18:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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The problem isn't just with DEX WM. I don't approve of an impenetrable defense or offense anywhere
I don't approve of servers that remove natural 1s because they invalidate casters.
I don't approve of invalidating nonfighters by removing skilldumps and thus opening the floodgates for everyone to be a 1 hit KD-and-dead
I don't even completely approve of PMs because they devalue an entire 7-16 class levels in WM -- but at least those have the consolation of only affecting said class.
The issue with epic dodge is that it's singularly enough to spike a garbage bag RPbuild to B-A tier and make yourself virtually untouchable. It's completely because of Amia's high magic low epic setup.
A pure 30 fighter who spams the reccomended button outside crossclassing tumble can hit mid 50s AC in expertise and almost hit 60 with improved expertise.
Any DEXbuild with the 26 DEX that's involved in getting epic dodge will hit at LEAST 70. Any decent one will hit more. Hasted even more.
The average AB for WMs, meanwhile, clocks 52-56 with a +5 weapon. Add 15 to that, and you hit the Amia AB cap of 67-71. That, minus 10 for improved expertise with attack 1 being a guaranteed miss (at least +5 AC equivalent) simply cannot compete, and worse still renders the epic dodge build in question virtually immune to critical hits.
There has to be a limiting factor. There has to be a way to gear up the ability or gear against it. Currently, there isn't; making it the only uncounterable thing in NWN.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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That Guy
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 18:41 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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At least 70? Umm....
10 base
2 Armor Skin
6 Tumble
5 Boots
8 shield
5 Armor
5 Amulet
5 Cloak
14 Dex Mod
__________
60 AC, this is the maximum possible with gear on Amia and 26 base Dexterity.
With Haste, mage armor and improved expertise you can get 75. To say at least 70 without those things? Bit of exaggeration. However, with improved expertise, that wm has a 37 AB.
Does this say that ED WM's aren't op? Nah, I think ED could use a failure on a 1, since Devcrit has one. Just wanted to say that having "at least 70 AC" is a big oversaying it.
AB too, you'd need a bunch of widgets to get a dex wm over 50 AB. To achieve 56? Ehh, it -can- be done, but... it's really pushing it.
Typical dex WM with 38 dex:
with a +5 weapon, has 47-48 AB
Aid and bless make that 49-50
Warcry makes it 51-52
Battletide makes that 53-54
Divine Favor and Prayer make it 55-56.
However... by the time you do all that... your 56 AB will last for.... about 18-24 seconds. Sure, it's useful, and sure it is possible, but, if you really try to buff all that during pvp, you'll have trouble.
That said! An epic level dex wm vs an epic level STR WM, with all the best gear... my money is on the Dexer, due to ED. Unless the STR based has Devcrit (even on the very low chance it goes off), the fight will last forever, and the dexer will likely win with a million tiny cuts.
Adding a chance of failure, even 5% (which it would be, everyone would gear for tumble), just -might- change the odds and make it more even.
Something interesting too... a STR character would be using expertise or improved expertise to fight that dexer. In doing so, they lower their AB, which, using that system would actually make ED nearly unbeatable except on a 1 even if the person didn't gear for it. I like that. This way, they can either be defensive and have a good chance of ED working, or be pure offensive and have a shot at getting past ED. Of course both come with their own consequences too. It makes it interesting.
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 20:08 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Zoltans str wm dueled my dex wm and won after the rolled five twenties in a row.
Str still kills anyone when they streak. That's the problem with going the long game vs them, more chances for that 20.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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That Guy
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 20:16 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I hope you're not suggesting we don't change anything because someone rolled 5 20's in a row one time...  Pretty sure you're not, but... had to be said.
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robbi320
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 21:35 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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So, if Dex WM isn't the only problem, what else is there? Assassin, rogue, SD, Monk. As a single class they really aren't that great. Medium BAB makes them most effective when multiclassing (except monk, but they ar their own thing) with High BAB, so if not WM, it really isn't that great. It's like Pale Master. Either good defense or a high damage output. Also, are we considering pure fighter as the cookie cutter build now? Then it'd be 'nerf everything except pure fighter'.
Also, unless your numbers are spiked with Improved expertise, which is actually not all that good, because you don't hit anything, your AC values are pretty weird. Now saying over 70 AC AND 56 AB, do you have a build that does that for more than a couple of seconds after buffing for more than the duration?
I mean, I might be wrong, but then it can't be difficult to prove that, right?
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Nov 09 2016, 23:55 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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That Guy wrote: I hope you're not suggesting we don't change anything because someone rolled 5 20's in a row one time... Pretty sure you're not, but... had to be said. na it's fine. i think balance on the server between top builds is fine. but to me fights arn't people just right clicking each other, and that's what ED excels at. movement, potions, wands, scrolls, other abilities, the shit people don't use for some reason? that wins fights. epic dodge wins people auto attacking. robbi320 wrote: So, if Dex WM isn't the only problem, what else is there? Assassin, rogue, SD, Monk. As a single class they really aren't that great. Medium BAB makes them most effective when multiclassing (except monk, but they ar their own thing) with High BAB, so if not WM, it really isn't that great. It's like Pale Master. Either good defense or a high damage output. Also, are we considering pure fighter as the cookie cutter build now? Then it'd be 'nerf everything except pure fighter'.
Also, unless your numbers are spiked with Improved expertise, which is actually not all that good, because you don't hit anything, your AC values are pretty weird. Now saying over 70 AC AND 56 AB, do you have a build that does that for more than a couple of seconds after buffing for more than the duration?
I mean, I might be wrong, but then it can't be difficult to prove that, right? these things arn't problems. wm's have garbage will save, and there's save or die's/save or be effectively dead that target will saves you can chain. not to mention lots of people roll planetouched for that +2 stat and will just die to a banish/word of faith that has a dc of 35 and they have +6 total to will vs spells. assassin is just good at what it does, unexpected ambushes from advantage. if it can't be actually good at that why exist? edit; imo most of the server issues comes from people not doing much beyond auto-attacking or direct damage and some builds just excel at that specific 'kind' of fight. hand spells + epic summon = dead, hand spells + bbod = dead. disjoin and save vs their weak save = dead. ambush someone not prepared = dead. builds don't even matter then. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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robbi320
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 11:07 AM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Then, and I might be getting this wrong, I don't see the problem. Really. Who doesn't have a solution to leftclicking? Low Will means both Arcane and Divine can counter well enough, anything with SD does HiPS, cornersneaking, traps... So, in the end, Dex only is better than Str WM. (or other leftklicker) So either say it as Str has the Str bonuses, like carry weight and better disc, or buff str, IMO. ED is too important for too many builds to get rid of without compensation.
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That Guy
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 15:18 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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Without using too much more math, and just going by my own experiences on Amia....
Any dex build with ED is considerably better than it would be without it. Simple fact, right?
I can take my dex wm from top to bottom in the Fire Giants, never buffing anything, and clear it. To me, that is a bit overpowerful. My wife does the same thing with hers. I don't mean in a group, I mean solo. No other character of mine can do that. Oh, might use 3-5 healing kits along the way too. That's it.
Yes, I keep saying Dex WM. Well, I have other ED builds too. My hin monk is nigh unstoppable, as a result of ED. I have a Master Scout too, she's not so strong, but would give any STR build a really tough fight too.
In parties, the dex ED build are always the ones taking the least damage in the frontliners. That, combined with the rest of what I said adds up to... ED is a bit too powerful as it is.
All myself and SOA are actually asking for is a bit more devotion to it (+10 in tumble at most in gear), and a 5% chance that it fails.
What does this mean in reality?
Adding 10 tumble would put most at or above the typical AB of an attacker, meaning they'd now only fail on a 1. However, that's 2 powers across their gear... something to take into consideration when gearing.
Also... a 5% chance of failure. Here's the thing: Epic Dodge negates the first HIT in every round. So, by having no chance of failure, and a high AC, which dexers do, it makes them extremely difficult to hit. That's the point, I know. However, I am a firm believer there should always be a way, thus the 1 and 20. A 5% chance of failure becuase of a 1 is hardly crippling ED, but it does bring it back in line with other powerful abilities. The one that comes to mind is Devcrit. This is the STR player's weapon against ED'ers. They have a fail on 1 for using it, why shouldn't the Epic Dodger?
I'm sure this is a bit of scripting work to see done, but.. to me it's helping to balance something that is overpowerful, though many don't want to admit it.
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robbi320
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:15 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Basically my problem with this deiscussion is that: 1. It makes tumble even more of a neccessity than it already is. I remember people a while ago talking about how they wanted to make tumble less neccessary. Now, we're saying make it more neccessary.
2. We are proposing to make every sneaker even worse than they already are with the rules. Apart from letting them have their time to wait to finally KD the person they are fighting, or the occasional hit they take while kiting, we are saying 'nope, can't do that either'. So, when is a dedicated sneaker supposed to sneak attack? When they have HiPS? When they are fighting in an area that allows cornersneaking?
3. I know, I am biased towards my own character, but why does no one care about making some already bad things worse? The most extreme case: Assassin. With these changes, we would have an Assassin gear for Dex, Int, tumble, disc, AC, and then hoping they fit things like saves, Con and Str in somewhere. Actual rogue: 'You can't attack because of your low BAB? Let's make you die more easily too'
Also, the aurofail is not how skills work in PnP. So we'd say 'screw PnP'. Maybe that isn't such a bad thing, but one thing I personally always enjoyed here is that PnP kind of is a relevant thing.
Also, soloing FGs? I've seen a DwD do that, Str builds, my level 20 Wizard does that (yeah, it buffs. With buffs it has for being a Wizard). It isn't a good scale.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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My 'problem' is this:
DEX is innately better than STR. I keep hearing it and trying to argue it, but I have had some time to look at reality, wake up, and smell the flowers. Two builds with the same AB, the same gear, and the capstone of their stat (so STR with Dev, DEX with EDodge) will innately favor the DEX build because of how Amia is.
The STR build can't achieve enough AB to reliably hit twice a round -- bar some hyper cheesy tactics.
The DEX build has more feats free to invest in saves, combat feats, and AB bonuses; because DEX is an investment of 2 feats with one being epic where STR is 5 -- two being epic.
A meta that immediately changes if the DEX doesn't go for their capstone.
STR with or without devcrit actually has a chance versus a non Epic Dodge DEX build.
Do you get my point? My problem isn't that ED holds my personal vendetta. It's that any and all PvP and PvM lives and dies by the presence of epic dodge in melee. A dexterity build can be virtually immune to immobilization through magic or KD, but 'only' if they get epic dodge. It has become both a minimum requirement for competitive DEX builds, and a vast gap of power between DEX and STR.
My 'pure fighter' example was only meant to illustrate this point. AC is and will always be the single easiest thing to inflate here, and it's enough to turn melees into a 20 minute exchange of 20s. When a fight becomes 20s, the person who can force you to roll two to hit them at all wins. A dexterity build can literally make it 20s, AND make you have to roll two, with no buffs from standstill. Their damage output objectively doesn't even matter -- because if you have to turn on a mode to survive that can't hit them and they 'can' hit you, you're going to lose. Eventually.
It's not even about auto attacking. It's about basic math. An STR build cannot win a 1v1 versus a DEX build without some really good 20-rolling luck or literal cheating. That's buffed, unbuffed, with wands, without wands. A completely identical build in every aspect but class spread and feat spread, between DEX and STR, will leave you with the DEX build being better if it gets Epic Dodge at all.
That's not balanced.
I think it's personally reasonable if you want to keep that to need to drop a bit of that knockdown immunity and impenetrable fortsave. That's called 'having downsides' -- which its honestly about time epic dodge got, because all that retarded strength has virtually no hangups right now.
Plus -- is it really awful to add a use to Tumble outside being 'the +6 AC skill'?
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
Last edited by #StraightOutaAvernus on Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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That Guy
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:22 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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Robbi, I said, with NO buffs, and barely healing. All my characters can solo FG's.... with buffs.
I see what you're saying to some extent but, I don't understand how this takes any offensive ability away from sneaks, as you say.
Hmm, you're right... tumble shouldn't have a fail. In that case... I'd say make it a Reflex save, but... meh, that's unfair too, a 35-40 ref vs 50ish AB? Nah, I don't go for that. It's not as bad as the current setup for Terrifying Rage (a whole other discussion!), but, it's still a bit unfair.
*shrug* Overall, no DM's are commenting which likely means they aren't interested in seeing it changed.
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:27 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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That Guy wrote: Without using too much more math, and just going by my own experiences on Amia....
Any dex build with ED is considerably better than it would be without it. Simple fact, right?
I can take my dex wm from top to bottom in the Fire Giants, never buffing anything, and clear it. To me, that is a bit overpowerful. My wife does the same thing with hers. I don't mean in a group, I mean solo. No other character of mine can do that. Oh, might use 3-5 healing kits along the way too. That's it.
Yes, I keep saying Dex WM. Well, I have other ED builds too. My hin monk is nigh unstoppable, as a result of ED. I have a Master Scout too, she's not so strong, but would give any STR build a really tough fight too.
In parties, the dex ED build are always the ones taking the least damage in the frontliners. That, combined with the rest of what I said adds up to... ED is a bit too powerful as it is.
All myself and SOA are actually asking for is a bit more devotion to it (+10 in tumble at most in gear), and a 5% chance that it fails.
What does this mean in reality?
Adding 10 tumble would put most at or above the typical AB of an attacker, meaning they'd now only fail on a 1. However, that's 2 powers across their gear... something to take into consideration when gearing.
Also... a 5% chance of failure. Here's the thing: Epic Dodge negates the first HIT in every round. So, by having no chance of failure, and a high AC, which dexers do, it makes them extremely difficult to hit. That's the point, I know. However, I am a firm believer there should always be a way, thus the 1 and 20. A 5% chance of failure becuase of a 1 is hardly crippling ED, but it does bring it back in line with other powerful abilities. The one that comes to mind is Devcrit. This is the STR player's weapon against ED'ers. They have a fail on 1 for using it, why shouldn't the Epic Dodger?
I'm sure this is a bit of scripting work to see done, but.. to me it's helping to balance something that is overpowerful, though many don't want to admit it. PvE is a bad metric because the bar is really low. My level 21 cleric and wizard(s) can solo fire giants w/o any consumables. And you can't just use 'no buffs' as an argument when a wizard is a buff class. 'No consumables' is better but still not quite fair. That's some of that bad comparing, it's the supreme right click class, yes it can right click its way to freedom. 13/10/7 is the most brain-dead thing on the server, if it wasn't good at just right-clicking.... does it even get class abilities??? Plus there are lots of things you can do (and some mobs do) to help with ED. For example, dex wm's don't hurt that much when they hit, and when they crit it isn't too much either. Get five or six regen , and get some minor DR (5/- physical) from somewhere, and now they arn't going to hurt you unless it's a crit. Meanwhile your str man, even on a hit, is still going to do a lot more damage. On a crit it's going to be like a 40 damage difference. It's the best feat, but people talk about it like it's the end all beat all. It's not. If it was available to anyone, yeah, but it has some requirements; 10 SD, 12 Rogue, 18 Assassin. These things force you to take other classes to compensate, and those other things leave holes. Like they said in the 'rules to live by' in Iraq, Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. Also if I did any change it would be to make Tumble a class skill for every class. That would help the server far more then any ED change, frankly. And I think it can be done code-wise as long as people don't mind it only working after level 1 (but you start at 2 here). _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:30 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: I think it's personally reasonable if you want to keep that to need to drop a bit of that knockdown immunity and impenetrable fortsave. That's called 'having downsides' -- which its honestly about time epic dodge got, because all that retarded strength has virtually no hangups right now.
Plus -- is it really awful to add a use to Tumble outside being 'the +6 AC skill'? Well STR does get knockdown resistance, disc is strength. Str also generally takes more fighter levels so it gets more fort save. They can then afford to gear to luxuries like regen and DR and really give a dexer a run for their money, because they have more free mythal slots. Giving tumble ANOTHER use is a terrible idea because the tyranny of tumble is one of the worst parts of the server. Giving up 3 ac because you didn't take a 'tumble class' hurts. Bad. And it's dumb as hell. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Having played basically nothing but nonDEX, commie, I will validate that hitting the absolute requirement of 37 Fort and 70 Disc still requires 'panic button' gearing for STR
Also your statement on tumble forgets the fact that EDodge requires it and the ability to take it to start with. All I'm doing is suggesting to actually worsen the investment by forcing you to take your lumps and discard epic prowess for ESF tumble or sacrifice a few mythal slots to not be as good as a fighter at everything.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 18:45 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: Having played basically nothing but nonDEX, commie, I will validate that hitting the absolute requirement of 37 Fort and 70 Disc still requires 'panic button' gearing for STR Yeah but it's easier. Gloves and some change or more change and free gloves. +12 to a skill is 2 feats (one epic) or quite a bit of gear. It only gets higher if you go with more strength. Considering one feat is usually worth one mythal slot (people take epic fortitude) i'd say it's a good deal. Gives you more flexibility. Also, Strength can hit higher AB levels. iirc you can get like +60 to hit building correctly. Gives you a much easier time hitting and confirming on the 60 ac dex man. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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corypx
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 21:18 PM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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I skimmed over the topic buy it seems like another case of risk vs reward/outlast vs outdamage or defence vs damage.
They each have perks dex gets to live longer then a Str focused person but they don't bring the pain and in turn suck against things that have DR and immunites and multiply that if they have regen.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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robbi320
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 21:20 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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I think they actually are identical AB. I can't see a reason why Str would get more, because they both have tve same ability to AB ratio and the only feats giving AB are WF EWF and Prowess.
But like commie said. Gear damage reduction and it turns into a fight of waiting for one of you to be lucky. Str gets free 14 damage, which gets you through most DR already. And you deal damage from a weapon, most likely more damage. Scimitar is better than rapier, or if you go two handed, which has its own problems, you get even more damage. You lose some defensiveness in exchange for your damage.
Nerfing ED would not remove offensive power from sneaks... directly, but with positioning, you give up your opportunity to attack for a position you like better. A sneak has to have some trick to win. Like a corner. If we make it more difficult for a sneak to get to said corner, we make him get less sneak attacks, thus reducing his damage.
One quick sidenote that will probably get me lynched. I find it ironic how PvP has such a stigma, but it's used as a measuring stick for balance.
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Tarnus
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 21:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Aug 2015
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Rogue is a 3/4 ab class. so a 13/10/7 would even in an everything else equal case get at least 1 ab less then your good old 12/16/2 strength wm. (and the strength wm also gets an ab increase from wm 13 and 16)
Ninjaedit because I forgot to add that: Which would make a difference of three in terms of AB.
_________________
Playing as:
Aleana Xiloscient: Wherever the winds take her.
Jealesyl Truesong: A voice in the dark
DM Prometheus: Bringing you fire
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 22:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Tarnus has the right of it. Still.
3 AB and 13 damage isn't > 6 AC, 1 auto-evade per round, and depending on the build either a high DC daze with HIPS to flatfoot people or 7d6+ sneak attacks
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 10 2016, 22:37 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Tarnus wrote: Rogue is a 3/4 ab class. so a 13/10/7 would even in an everything else equal case get at least 1 ab less then your good old 12/16/2 strength wm. (and the strength wm also gets an ab increase from wm 13 and 16)
Ninjaedit because I forgot to add that: Which would make a difference of three in terms of AB. you also can't do things like 19 weapon master (4 ab) and get epic dodge. you also lose third class flexibility for ED WM because you have to pick one of those classes that gets ED, and assassin likely isn't going to be it. so no knight commander, no master scout, no lots of stuff. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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corypx
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 1:10 AM |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: Tarnus has the right of it. Still.
3 AB and 13 damage isn't > 6 AC, 1 auto-evade per round, and depending on the build either a high DC daze with HIPS to flatfoot people or 7d6+ sneak attacks (((Keep in mind I talk about PvE for balance because 9 times out of 10 that's what people are doing)) Again that's all subjective. because is it not 13 damage per attack, how many attacks would they get per round 4, so if we assume all attacks land that's minimum of 52 damage every 6 seconds then if factor in crits....ect is scales up a lot. Epic dodge also only works again 1 attack per round so it sounds great 1 vs 1 and they have 4 attacks so you min reduce max attack you will be stuck by too 3 or less. but solo wise you spawn mobs of 5 or so its value is a lot less because you are being attacked 15 times in 6 seconds, Yes you have the extra 6 AC but lets face it they are rolling for ones at that point to hit you so the longer you are in combat the more time they have to roll a one against you and because you do less damage you will be in combat longer..... Again its all a trade off on chance, some stuff is better in some cases then others, you as a player just have to pick what you rather pick . _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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robbi320
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 9:43 AM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Oops, yes. AB difference different builds, sorry. Forgot that happens. I'd agree with cory actually. It balances out. Maybe 6 AC is a bit better in many cases, but let's look at it like this: Str uses Expertise. Dex has 2 more AB now, and one more AC. For that, Str has 14 damage, 14 more discipline, (or less neccessary gear slots) possibly a pretty reliable KD attempt (dev crit), if not more feats, OverCrit means more crit damage, and you use a stronger weapon.
So, it's a tradeoff. Damage vs Defense. If a Str hits you, you take a lot more damage than if Dex hits you. Of course, Dex will last longer. If you want to argue, post Dex and Str damage numbers. But 14 is a nice amount.
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Guardian
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 15:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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Not to mention that if a dev. crit hits you, you're basically dead. If you dodge an attack, well... the fight goes on and you still need to deliver good enough damage to kill the opposition.
ED is all right as it is. Don't be overthinking feats on account of a few cheese builds.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 20:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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I still think balancing about an axis of PvM is unwise. The simple fact of the matter is that your average joe can cakewalk most of the server with the exception of epic bosses and the abyss with even a build that spammed the recommended button.
Even then, I deem it a considerable problem when I consider myself capable of wagering that areas I can walk through with an 18 Rogue/6 SD/6 Fighter build without the use of any consumables and more than 1 stack of kits are ones that I can't even wager the same of for a 14 Fighter/4 Bard/12 PM.
Both are tanks, with what is quintessentially the same amount of AC and AB, and virtually the same amount of potential to do damage (because the PM's STR modifier is not > the Rogue's 9d6 (avg 21) sneak attack); and I have almost no doubt that I would have an easier time with the rogue -- despite the latter being critical hit immune, and the former being designed to fulfill a support and trap-disabling role. Just spam HIPS every time your Epic Dodge triggers and return the next combat round to a flatfooted NPC for the lols.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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robbi320
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 20:20 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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So, what? Nerf Wizard as well? Summon, invis, be careful with not being seen. Ideally no damage, no consumables, no kits. Also, using kind of boring and takes a while. I mean, almost twice as long as just plowing through enemies. Yeah, you survive well, but you need about two rounds for every round of attacking...
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Fri, Nov 11 2016, 20:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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The Wizard summon still occasionally needs a healing kit :^)
also -- for the record of your information, STR doesn't really get that much better a weapon. Rapier has (relative to scimitar):
>The same damage dice
>The same critthreat and multiplier
>The same weight
>The same size
>The same maximum cap for enchantments
and Monkeygrip is overrated unless you have disarm.
I'm still not seeing why it's a hard argument to make that being able to completely and virtually costlessly (You were getting at least 10 levels of some DEX centric class as a DEX build. Don't lie -- and 30 tumble was a requirement to be decent, not to get a feat) guarantee the evasion of at least 1 attack per round regardless of your attacker isn't balanced. It narrows DEX build diversity artificially, artificially reduces the effectiveness of non-dexterity tanking builds (such as Dwarven Defenders), and if you can argue that it doesn't then the existence of this discussion shouldn't even merit an argument.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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rafaelmacgyver
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 12:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: Monkeygrip is overrated unless you have disarm. Overrated unless you have disarm? Because if someone with Disarm manages to disarm someone that uses MG that one would not be able to rearm again in the middle of the fight? As far as I know the MG process is entirely OOC and in an ICly view it takes but an instant to rearm again. I do not know if its a specific rule written somewhere but if a disarm on a MG happens the fight should have to completely halt for the OOC MG process to happen again OR the one with MG just do the process again in the middle of the fight. Do not know if not allowing the process to happen would be called Metagaming but surely is a complete lack of sportsmanship... Would like to read an official DM imput on this case scenario. EDIT: After sometime and being propperly aware, I've took a read again and realized ive missread what you ment. You talking about the bonus a Large weapon gives to disarm. Sorry! But... I would still like to have a DM imput about how to procced if the the scenario above happens! _________________ Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants) Adela Griffonheart (Poke) Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy) Emilly MacMillan (Happy)   Sprites by Raua!
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 16:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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You would need to equip another weapon before you die.
If someone is taking an attack roll penalty to disarm you and manages to do it, that's on them. But stopping a fight so you can back up, disengage combat, activate widget, equip gear, and then start fighting again is absurd, when regen is a thing, and spells/potions/abilities only last a handful of rounds.
It's a risk you take when you MG simply because of its implementation.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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rafaelmacgyver
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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Valid point... or I simply use the MG widget to shape and requip weapon with all the risks it may cause to my character on doing it middle battle.
I would still like some DM wording on this.
_________________ Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants) Adela Griffonheart (Poke) Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy) Emilly MacMillan (Happy) Sprites by Raua!
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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rafaelmacgyver wrote: Valid point... or I simply use the MG widget to shape and requip weapon with all the risks it may cause to my character on doing it middle battle.
I would still like some DM wording on this. Also keep in mind if you're using a large weapon and they are trying to disarm you it's like a minus eight roll vs your ac and also then a discipline check. I also think it's a bit unfair to even ask that a monkey gripper should be afford the luxury of a dm scantioned combat pause to re-equip their weapon, something no one else gets when disarmed. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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rafaelmacgyver
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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It would also be unfair not being able to use the widget to shape and equip again middle battle.
_________________ Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants) Adela Griffonheart (Poke) Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy) Emilly MacMillan (Happy) Sprites by Raua!
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That Guy
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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What's stopping you from using the widget in battle?
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rafaelmacgyver
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
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There was never an official wording if its valid to do it middle battle or no.
Something similar happened a loonnggg time ago if i recall right... and there were was lot of OOC issues...
_________________ Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants) Adela Griffonheart (Poke) Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy) Emilly MacMillan (Happy) Sprites by Raua!
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That Guy
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 19:59 PM |
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Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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No matter what is ruled, there will be ooc issues. To me, if you have MG and get disarmed, go right ahead and redo your widget thingy. Though, I personally think MG itself is silly and shouldn't exist... so... take that as you will. Though, I won't stop someone from picking up their weapon by whatever means they have to, I certainly think asking everything to stop while you do it is just... inappropriate.
However, this thread is about how op Epic Dodge is!
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Chupacabra
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Posted: Wed, Nov 16 2016, 21:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jan 2016
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Booooooo!
IMO If you take Epic Dodge away or tweek it, better do the same for Dev Crit and Overwhelming Crit as well because if not, the Balance will shift and Str WM's will be unstoppable and Dev Criting Dragon Kin will rule the roost. I mean, that's what this post is really about, isn't it S.O.A.? How to get rid of you and your Minions Achilles heel, the Dex WM and reign supreme? Might as get rid of KD and Imp KD while were are at it.
P.S.6+years on this server and i have not once had a Toon with Epic dodge.
_________________
Deacon Lott-Merchant
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 0:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Uh, Dev is a joke and Epic Dodge is triple SSS+ tier. It's not even worth comparing.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Chupacabra
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jan 2016
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So if Epic Dodge was to be taken out, you think a Dex Wm would be on the same par as a Str Dev Wm?
I would really be bummed if i had a pure Rouge or a SD Build if that happened.
_________________
Deacon Lott-Merchant
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Chupacabra wrote: So if Epic Dodge was to be taken out, you think a Dex Wm would be on the same par as a Str Dev Wm?
I would really be bummed if i had a pure Rouge or a SD Build if that happened. it's really impossible to say what would happen. i think casters would rise to total prominence, that and barbarian builds. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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thunderbrush
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 5:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast
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I've said it before, and I'm going to keep this brief. I'm just going to say that this is only my opinion. This is a Dungeons and Dragons game. If you want perfect balance and equality across all classes, go play World of Warcraft. You can't and won't find it here. Ever. It's simply not designed to be that way. To coin on what Tormak said, Dev Crit is a joke. PvP wise anyway. Though knocking the sense out of Windy with one is pretty dope. RDD is a shitty class. There is simply no way to make it -not- dreadful. You will lose to Mages, Clerics, WM's of both varieties, HiPSters, Druids, Shifters...You get my point. They are strong, but that's about it. Throw in some PM and you make a war of attrition out of it, but you also have a souless, cheese, lorebroken mess. I know that Avernus knows this, and I don't think making the DD's more powerful was his aim. They are gonna suck either way. Epic Dodge performs like it is supposed to. No point in penalizing folks who have classes that invest in it. Where do you stop at that point? You start nerfing all the apex skills? You do that to ED, something else will take its place. My guess is we will revert back to the great save, cha build days. Avernus. You are 100% correct about ED being designed for a 40 environment. Most classes and skills are. Due to the retardely high magic and low level cap that exists here, sadly we are stuck with certain build parameters. Saves are to easy to enhance, making most specialty classes dedicated 1 fishermen. Lets not forget all the overly potent spell effects in potion form.
_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 5:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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you can make rdd not bad now.
oorog fighter bard rdd, 18 rdd. you end up like 63 ac despite being a strength guy and can hit a buffed 50 str, with solid to-hit and basically the best dmg in the game.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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thunderbrush
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 7:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast
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[quote="Commie"]you can make rdd not bad now.
oorog fighter bard rdd, 18 rdd. you end up like 63 ac despite being a strength guy and can hit a buffed 50 str, with solid to-hit and basically the best dmg in the game.[/quote
Oh. I'm tracking that. But again. Standing there swapping blows is..well..meh.
_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Nov 17 2016, 8:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Current amia balance, this is a mostly pve spread with some pvp thoughts. Note that this assumes the builds are done like, 'correctly' and is just like, my opinion man.
Placement within tiers doesn't matter unless it's noted as mattering (ie says high B or A+)
S-Tier (Degenerate)
Epic dodge weapon master with sneak attack (13/10/7)
A-Tier (Rock solid)
Epic dodge anything else but heavy monk (A+)
19 weapon master strength build
Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but casting focus)
Dragon shape druid (A+ with mummy dust, low A without, A+ with cleric 1 and greater sanctuary)
Massive strength no dev crit MS WM
SD 6/caster 21+
Monk, 1 sorc 8 cha, Rest AA (So like 11/1/18 or 12/1/17) with tumble.
18 rdd/fight/bard 38 str no dev crit
Pure bard or 25/5.
B-Tier (Can still do anything, might need to plan a little more or spend a little more money, SOMETIMES.)
Standard strength WM (12/2/16) (B+)
Non dragon full druid
General full barbarian
Strength assassin
6 SD high bab
Bane of enemies ranger
Heavy paladin (too situational to be higher)
General (non specific) Shifter (too many specific builds to list all of them)
Cha blackguard
Epic dodge monk (B-)
C-Tier (Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers)
Heavy monk no epic dodge
Full melee rdd pm
Heavy DwD
Heavy rogue
Melee low wisdom clerics ("I started with 18 strength!" cleric, D tier with no mummy dust or dragon knight)
Wisdom blackguard
Dedicated 2 handed builds
Non AA non ranger archer
Any pure fighter
D-Tier (Has trouble or serious glaring weaknesses)
Caster pale master
Heavy shadow-dancer
Caster RDD.
Notes; Picking a race that's subject to banish knocks you down a tier unless your build has 35 to will save vs spells while naked.
AND REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST LIKE, MY OPINION MAN.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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