AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Druids: Even treehuggers need a bit of love sometimes.

Effective once the patch goes in Wildshape for druids is getting a revamp.

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Level 5 --> Level 12 --> Level 25

Pig, pink -> Boar -> Dire Boar = (Physical DPS)

Brown Bear -> Grizzly -> Dire Bear (New dire skin!) = (Tank)

Dog -> Wolf -> Dire Wolf = (Generalist)

Skunk -> Badger -> Dire Badger = (High AB)

Lynx -> Cougar -> Dire Cougar = (Sneak/DPS)
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All of the forms have been redesigned from the ground up to fit their roles better. Unique abilities and tools have been granted to each of them. These forms are going to require some testing and tweaking as we go along so please report any bugs/issues you may find.

Nice! A welcome change!

This is live.

Nice.

I for one welcome our new cat-bear overlords.

Pappy has 26 druid levels so I have the tops of all the forms.

Bear form HP is exciting to the point of turgidity but the AC is nothing to write home about. I actually lose points and his isn't that high to start. All that HP isn't going to be worth a darn if you can't actually avoid any attacks. The others have ACs a bit better but nothing really rivals the elemental shapes he gets at those levels

Lvl 12 druid here. The cougar form is showing a beetle portrait.

Yeah we saw that >_> We'll fix it.

Post feed back here and or pm it to me guys. All is appreciated.

To note the forms do have enchantments on their claws now and some forms do have hide DR among other things.

So, with Shifters also getting Wild Shape on level, do they also benefit from this? (personally, I'd like it if they got 12th level ones max, but I'm weird like that)

Shifters only get up to the level 12 versions.

I tested the bear with Tormak's help. Since the old stats are so readily available I don't think I'm out of line to post them here.

Dire bear pushed me to almost 1100 HP. Very good.
DR is 10/- and that is helpful except for what comes next.
AC is 32. For a shape that's supposed to be a tank that's way low. I could see that for one of the lower level bear shapes but at level 25+ which would be required to get that shape it's quite low. Yes you get the crazy HP but when you can't avoid diddly poo you're going to need that HP to survive. Keep in mind that you can also get decent HP on the earth elemental shape you would get at that level and the elemental shape is not only immune to crits and mind spells but gets the added bonus of spells, +5 weapons, and an on-hit stun.

This is not to say that the new changes are not appreciated. They are. I just think that as you get higher they may not scale as well as they probably should.

i'd knock bear ac to what a tumble tank would be w/o the tumble, 50 with full tumble for example.

32 ac you just get crit by everything. the ac is so low and you arn't crit immune with like 4 DR feats so it ends up being just not tanky.

I am not giving the bear 50 AC.

I will tweak them soon though. I have a nerf for the badger and buff for the bear in mind.

The forms are suppose to be used with druid buffs so 32 AC isnt realistic.

Yeah 32 isn't true. It has more. The lvl 25 druid version, anyways.

Last edited by Sun Dog on Sun, Nov 27 2016, 19:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I got a bit higher than 32 too when my epic druid tried the bear shape. The new shapes have decent stats and feats. The cougar is a big surprise.

I can't stand the way they look. So freakish, don't think I'd ever use them. Look like a genetics science experiment gone bad. But I know they weren't redone for me, so no big deal. Prefer elemental forms anyway.

I am puzzled by the badger tho. My druid uses the badger animal companion, and it's Dex based with Weapon Finesse, so I was surprised to find the badger wild shape is Str based. I would've thought they'd be the same. This was an incorrect comparison between badger and boar. Ignore.

Hmm, that is odd... My badger shape is DEX based and even gives the druid Weapon Finesse, which I dont think works with creature weapons? Have to check the combat log but I dont think the AB is correct there.

exquisitelyme wrote:

Hmm, that is odd... My badger shape is DEX based and even gives the druid Weapon Finesse, which I dont think works with creature weapons? Have to check the combat log but I dont think the AB is correct there.

Oops, my bad. I got the badger and boar mixed up in my comparison. You are correct, the badger wild shape is Dex based. That's a relief. Thanks for setting me straight. Will edit my post to reflect.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Yeah 32 isn't true. It has more. The lvl 25 druid version, anyways.

I beg to differ. This is unbuffed.

This is fully buffed with every single buff available to a druid. That includes that rather short term Aura of Vitality.

do you have tumble and are your stat buffs maximized

Well

1. you have specific build that misses something crucial. This is not something we can calculate in, sorry.

2. Unbuffed on a chara that is meant to be buffed is also kinda not what we can work with.

We need to calculate with what you CAN reach.

Last edited by Commie on Mon, Nov 28 2016, 2:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

this is what I'm at full buffed.

edit wow that cropped weird.

should show druid 28 1 ranger 1 monk

Yeah we need to calculate with the best possible outcome. We can't really calculate with the wost possible outcome, as it would make the other rediculous.

also i havn't played around with it too much to know if it matters but I have +3 stat gear on.

I do not have tumble. Pappy is a druid and another class which doesn't get it. It was never intended that he would as that wasn't what he was designed to do. In that event it would be possible that I would need to rework the build. So be it, but don't tell me 32 isn't possible as I just showed that it is.

I also posted the buffed version below. I used every single direct buff spell for a druid that doesn't override another (stoneskin being overridden by greater stoneskin, etc.) That 40 drops to 38 as soon as AoV goes away.

ucfgoose wrote:

I do not have tumble. Pappy is a druid and another class which doesn't get it. It was never intended that he would as that wasn't what he was designed to do. In that event it would be possible that I would need to rework the build. So be it, but don't tell me 32 isn't possible as I just showed that it is.

I also posted the buffed version below. I used every single direct buff spell for a druid that doesn't override another (stoneskin being overridden by greater stoneskin, etc.) That 40 drops to 38 as soon as AoV goes away.

why is your dex lower then mine then? did you max cats grace and aura of vit?

We were always speaking of how your chara would be in combat. And no, 32 would not be something you have in combat, unless you go in butt naked which would not really be fit for your wisdom.

P.S. nowhere does my post say 32 cannot be reached at all. But that is not what you'd normally have in that shape unless you want it to be that low.

Again, we need to calculate with the maximum outcome for balance.

Commie wrote:

why is your dex lower then mine then? did you max cats grace and aura of vit?

As AoV is a flat +4 to con, dex, and str there is no benefit to maximizing it. With Cat's maxed out (or just a better roll) AC would go up by 1 as dex would then be 30. Considering his base it 10 it may be making some difference. I don't know yours to cross reference.

ucfgoose wrote:

Commie wrote:

why is your dex lower then mine then? did you max cats grace and aura of vit?

As AoV is a flat +4 to con, dex, and str there is no benefit to maximizing it. With Cat's maxed out (or just a better roll) AC would go up by 1 as dex would then be 30. Considering his base it 10 it may be making some difference. I don't know yours to cross reference.

well the base stats should be the same as the forms use the same base physical scores.

You did say 32 wasn't true. If I didn't know better I'd think you were flat out calling me a liar. I was going off base numbers because, let's face it, some days you just don't get the opportunity to prepare yourself fully before you find yourself in the middle of a fight. I should have clarified for everyone's sanity.

for the record this is my build

http://pastebin.com/MtqKU2QP

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Yeah 32 isn't true. It has more. The lvl 25 druid version, anyways.

Ok to make this easier for everyone:

The discussion here, and hence the testing, is meant for a fully buffed, ready to combat druid.

Aka - we need to know if any of the shapes need tweaking (be it up or down) when your Druid hunts in the best possible way. Aka properly buffed and with your companion/summon.

Honest feedback time.

They are all still pretty lackluster compared to the elemental forms.

They might have a little more HP sometimes, but water/air ele can get way more ac, earth ele gets a shit ton of DR, fire ele has a higher AB, and unlike the animals... and they are all immune to crits and all kinds of shit being elementals.

With no spells, no immunities, and lower if not the same numbers compared to elemental shapes, but coming at the same level, I don't see why they exist or would ever be used. They either need more numbers (ac ab dmg etc) then the elemental forms to make up for the loss of spells (infinite acid cloud, stonehold, aoe knockdown, or fireball is ineradicable) and the loss of immunities and the loss of things like 5 dr feats and elemental immunities.

Right now they aren't an alternative, just a mechanically worse option in basically every way, which is what they were before. Now it's just less mechanically worse.

Suggestion; make sure they have better raw numbers (stats/ab/ac) to make up for the fact that they have zero utility and no crit immunity.

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

Elyon wrote:

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

Didnt realIze It had Hips

Not new for druid or shifter forms though a few already have hips.

It's not new, but nor should it take out too much from other classes. That's 25 levels of other classes in one form. Especially considering what there already is for a druid.

As to your other post Commie, my thoughts are that the elementals and animals forms shouldn't be compared hand in hand. That is because the elementals are too overpowered as they are. You've got the recent spell changes for evocation ESF combined with infinite uses of fireballs and call lightnings. That's 16d6 damage within a considerable blast radius. Make it 32d6 (d8 for outdoors call lightning) per round when hasted. Acid fog has been upped with conjuration ESF too.

The elementals are too good w/ the spell spamming, yes.

Commie wrote:

Honest feedback time.

They are all still pretty lackluster compared to the elemental forms.

They might have a little more HP sometimes, but water/air ele can get way more ac, earth ele gets a shit ton of DR, fire ele has a higher AB, and unlike the animals... and they are all immune to crits and all kinds of shit being elementals.

With no spells, no immunities, and lower if not the same numbers compared to elemental shapes, but coming at the same level, I don't see why they exist or would ever be used. They either need more numbers (ac ab dmg etc) then the elemental forms to make up for the loss of spells (infinite acid cloud, stonehold, aoe knockdown, or fireball is ineradicable) and the loss of immunities and the loss of things like 5 dr feats and elemental immunities.

Right now they aren't an alternative, just a mechanically worse option in basically every way, which is what they were before. Now it's just less mechanically worse.

Suggestion; make sure they have better raw numbers (stats/ab/ac) to make up for the fact that they have zero utility and no crit immunity.

The animal forms are already like that. Stop reading the character sheet and read the combat logs.

Some of those animals hit mid 40 AB easy and more with the proper buffs.

Elyon wrote:

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

Polymorphs with HIPS will never break a very high hide/ms even with proper gear. Any basic spotter will see the shifter + the dire cougar. The cool down is still present as well.

A 19 Rogue and 6 SD will always be king with the 100+ hide/ms.

TormakSaber wrote:

The elementals are too good w/ the spell spamming, yes.

Yeah. I am going to tone down the elemental base stats I believe. They can stay the niche spell spammers but they don't need to be dominate in everything else as well.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Commie wrote:

Honest feedback time.

They are all still pretty lackluster compared to the elemental forms.

They might have a little more HP sometimes, but water/air ele can get way more ac, earth ele gets a shit ton of DR, fire ele has a higher AB, and unlike the animals... and they are all immune to crits and all kinds of shit being elementals.

With no spells, no immunities, and lower if not the same numbers compared to elemental shapes, but coming at the same level, I don't see why they exist or would ever be used. They either need more numbers (ac ab dmg etc) then the elemental forms to make up for the loss of spells (infinite acid cloud, stonehold, aoe knockdown, or fireball is ineradicable) and the loss of immunities and the loss of things like 5 dr feats and elemental immunities.

Right now they aren't an alternative, just a mechanically worse option in basically every way, which is what they were before. Now it's just less mechanically worse.

Suggestion; make sure they have better raw numbers (stats/ab/ac) to make up for the fact that they have zero utility and no crit immunity.

The animal forms are already like that. Stop reading the character sheet and read the combat logs.

Some of those animals hit mid 40 AB easy and more with the proper buffs.

I will test when I get home.

Elyon wrote:

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

Nineteen Rogue would also get you epic dodge though, the best feat in the game. So there's that. So would ten shadow dancer.

Yeah the cat does not match a 19 rogue or 6 shadow dancer in any way or shape.

In any... Wild Shape? Sorry...

What I would advise caution with balancing there is that a rogue does not have a free companion who actually can be pretty tanky too. So badger runs in, tanks while Dire Cougar gets massive amounts of sneak attacks.

The cat does have rogue/SDs on classy looks, though.

Would it be asking too much to ask that we get the actual changes that took place for all the affected shapes versus what they were? It would stand to reason that such transparency would help the playerbase determine what was intended and can check if it's working like you wanted.

Now as to all these changes going about and the proposed changes to the elemental forms does this mean we're looking at free rebuilds for those impacted? Giving all the people that currently play druids such fundamental changes in how their characters work would put them at a major disadvantage in comparison with any characters built with the changes already in mind. I know DC rebuilds can be done but it seems a bit harsh to make someone spend their DCs just to adjust to changes made by the dev team.

ucfgoose wrote:

The cat does have rogue/SDs on classy looks, though.

Would it be asking too much to ask that we get the actual changes that took place for all the affected shapes versus what they were? It would stand to reason that such transparency would help the playerbase determine what was intended and can check if it's working like you wanted.

Now as to all these changes going about and the proposed changes to the elemental forms does this mean we're looking at free rebuilds for those impacted? Giving all the people that currently play druids such fundamental changes in how their characters work would put them at a major disadvantage in comparison with any characters built with the changes already in mind. I know DC rebuilds can be done but it seems a bit harsh to make someone spend their DCs just to adjust to changes made by the dev team.

I didn't build with any knowledge of any changes at all. I just built.

These were the original stats for wildshape it was all nwn default.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Wild_shape

None of these forms had anything beyond base no enchantment claws. No feats or abilities.

The first two lines of forms got adjustments, all improvements, and enchantment claws at 12 ranging from +2 to +3 depending. All forms have some regen.

The epic line that was added are brand new. They all have +4/+5 claws depending. All of the forms got improved regen as well, the bear has more than the others. The wolf and bear both have built in DR, the bear more so. All their feats/abilities are below.

Dire Cougar = Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack (10d6), HIPS, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1
Dire Boar = Epic Weapon Spec (C.W)
Dire Badger = Ferocity, Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, W. Finesse, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1
Dire Wolf = Howl, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus
Dire Bear = Defensive awareness II, Toughness, Maxed Con (+12 to hide)

Of course, the build and the form will be different in many aspects. The 19/6 will have better hide and MS. One might have epic dodge, the other might not. Looking at the two feats individually:

10D6 sneak attack is achieved by a hefty 19 rogue levels and HiPs achieved by 6 SD levels. That's a total of /25/ levels to achieve the two, easily placed on one wildshape form. Those are considerably good feats so naturally, they have high requirements. Having them placed on a single animal shape- of a class that already has enough at their disposal and yields incredible flexibility. I'm not quite sure about that.

They are not nearly anywhere near the build you describe. Druids also only merge armor, unlike shifters. You cannot enchant your weapons. Etc etc etc. Believe me, I tested them.

Without any of those things, that shape would be completely useless, as it was. You couldn't even hunt forest of dispair with them on level 30 druid.

Druids: Even treehuggers need a bit of love sometimes.

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