Joined: 12 Nov 2015 Location: The belly of the beast
No. That about sums it up man. Without major changes to equipment availability or level cap, that's about where it will stay. There is always going to be the "It" build. You just can't stand toe to toe with everyone. You would also be surprised (Or not, as Commie already stated it) how many of the Dex Based WM's cringe in fear in the face of a caster cleric, because they twinked with a Genasi build. They know the WoF is comming, or at least -might- be comming. This also applies for say....a bunch or RDD's who wanted a lil extra str....
_________________ Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
There was never an official wording if its valid to do it middle battle or no.
Something similar happened a loonnggg time ago if i recall right... and there were was lot of OOC issues...
Do what I do, keep your two hand GS in the quickslot and when your MG greatsword gets disarmed, quick-equip your 2h greatsword! Voila!
wouldn't that drop your shield?
edit; quoted for page 2
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Current amia balance, this is a mostly pve spread with some pvp thoughts. Note that this assumes the builds are done like, 'correctly' and is just like, my opinion man.
Placement within tiers doesn't matter unless it's noted as mattering (ie says high B or A+)
S-Tier (Degenerate)
Epic dodge weapon master with sneak attack (13/10/7)
A-Tier (Rock solid)
Epic dodge anything else but heavy monk (A+) 19 weapon master strength build Full 29 or 28 caster with tumble (cleric/wiz/sorc interchangeable but casting focus) Dragon shape druid (A+ with mummy dust, low A without, A+ with cleric 1 and greater sanctuary) Massive strength no dev crit MS WM SD 6/caster 21+ Monk, 1 sorc 8 cha, Rest AA (So like 11/1/18 or 12/1/17) with tumble. 18 rdd/fight/bard 38 str no dev crit Pure bard or 25/5.
B-Tier (Can still do anything, might need to plan a little more or spend a little more money, SOMETIMES.)
Standard strength WM (12/2/16) (B+) Non dragon full druid General full barbarian Strength assassin 6 SD high bab Bane of enemies ranger Heavy paladin (too situational to be higher) General (non specific) Shifter (too many specific builds to list all of them) Cha blackguard Epic dodge monk (B-)
C-Tier (Has trouble with some content or relies on feats/features available to other tiers)
Heavy monk no epic dodge Full melee rdd pm Heavy DwD Heavy rogue Melee low wisdom clerics ("I started with 18 strength!" cleric, D tier with no mummy dust or dragon knight) Wisdom blackguard Dedicated 2 handed builds Non AA non ranger archer Any pure fighter
D-Tier (Has trouble or serious glaring weaknesses) Caster pale master Heavy shadow-dancer Caster RDD.
Notes; Picking a race that's subject to banish knocks you down a tier unless your build has 35 to will save vs spells while naked.
AND REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST LIKE, MY OPINION MAN.
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Oh also some race decisions can really muddle where you are in the tier list. Things like Drow can't just have a blanket 'move up move down' like planetouched races can, but a drow X can suddenly shoot up as many as two tiers because of it.
Take for example the monk AA build, while you can be dispelled because you will always have at least 10 charisma, you gain a tremendous amount of 'free' SR, but only lose a bit of to-hit. So your AC is still higher then a plate-user with tumble, your AB is one less (who cares), you have a few less HP, but it doesn't matter. You're still faster then any non pure-monk and your only real build weakness (because all those monk levels and your stat spread gives you crazy good saves) was specific spells, which are almost all subject to spell resistance.
It'll drop your shield, but you can't re-monkey grip withou the huge process anyways, so you might as well be using the weapon that you have purpose made to use without the shield. You'll gain back roughly 8ish damage a hit midfight depending on your build, and you weren't going to be able to spend 3 rounds re MGing anyways, imo.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Fooling around with my (Rather poor) str char the other day i started thinking about dex builds. Mostly, how i could switch said char to a dex build to suck less. Long story short, i ended up coming around to ideas on how to make Dex less amazing. I ended up with a rather simple idea!
You cant Epic dodge with a shield.
As for tumble, id always felt the better option was to remove cross class all together. If your a paladin that made an effort to invest time in learning to maneuver in combat, or is a ever vigilant guardian of whatever thus maxing spot, why the hell should you need a rogue level? SOME things would be a bit more specialized i suppose, perhaps using magical devices would be limited to classes that makes sense. But hell, if a rogue can learn to use a wand, then so can a fighter as we see often enough. Now, taking two rogue levels for evasion and skill dump is not the obvious thing to do for most builds. "But Xenos, this detracts from the rogue being the jack of all skills, master of all skills!" WRONG! Rogue still gets the most skills per level of any class, so long as they invest the int. That means, even if every class could use any skill, rogue would still have the most varied skills to work with, tied with a Wizard due to their high int. This also makes the Rogue more special, for you rogue RPers out there. No longer do people need to dip into rogue for a few sweet things, while ignoring the fact their a rogue. They might do it anyway because evasion is sweet, but it wont be a sure pick because tumble dump or bust. This is obviously a wild idea, and has never been popular. But alas, I've struggled with the desire to cross class for skill dumps for years. Feeling like i'm missing out all all that sweet skills and free feats i could net with just ONE ranger level. My resolve weakens..
Fooling around with my (Rather poor) str char the other day i started thinking about dex builds. Mostly, how i could switch said char to a dex build to suck less. Long story short, i ended up coming around to ideas on how to make Dex less amazing. I ended up with a rather simple idea!
Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: The Hall of the Mountain King
That Guy wrote:
At least 70? Umm....
10 base 2 Armor Skin 6 Tumble 5 Boots 8 shield 5 Armor 5 Amulet 5 Cloak 14 Dex Mod __________ 60 AC, this is the maximum possible with gear on Amia and 26 base Dexterity.
With Haste, mage armor and improved expertise you can get 75. To say at least 70 without those things? Bit of exaggeration. However, with improved expertise, that wm has a 37 AB.
Does this say that ED WM's aren't op? Nah, I think ED could use a failure on a 1, since Devcrit has one. Just wanted to say that having "at least 70 AC" is a big oversaying it.
AB too, you'd need a bunch of widgets to get a dex wm over 50 AB. To achieve 56? Ehh, it -can- be done, but... it's really pushing it.
Typical dex WM with 38 dex:
with a +5 weapon, has 47-48 AB Aid and bless make that 49-50 Warcry makes it 51-52 Battletide makes that 53-54 Divine Favor and Prayer make it 55-56.
However... by the time you do all that... your 56 AB will last for.... about 18-24 seconds. Sure, it's useful, and sure it is possible, but, if you really try to buff all that during pvp, you'll have trouble.
That said! An epic level dex wm vs an epic level STR WM, with all the best gear... my money is on the Dexer, due to ED. Unless the STR based has Devcrit (even on the very low chance it goes off), the fight will last forever, and the dexer will likely win with a million tiny cuts.
Adding a chance of failure, even 5% (which it would be, everyone would gear for tumble), just -might- change the odds and make it more even.
Something interesting too... a STR character would be using expertise or improved expertise to fight that dexer. In doing so, they lower their AB, which, using that system would actually make ED nearly unbeatable except on a 1 even if the person didn't gear for it. I like that. This way, they can either be defensive and have a good chance of ED working, or be pure offensive and have a shot at getting past ED. Of course both come with their own consequences too. It makes it interesting.
Compared to a str wm the ab isn't that much lower. Now consider a str wm has an ac of about 60 with all the buffs and full +5 gear, which shouldn't be that hard to beat on the first hits. Beyond that you can add the 50% concealment bonus and ED and it's getting increasingly hard to hit.
_________________ I am not weird, I am limited edition
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