"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." -Gary Gygax

Gary Gygax is really poignant in this, I think he sees that it's meant to be a collaborative effort, where we're all OOC friends or at the very least respectful of our differences enough to interact and even at times bend our PCs to fit the fun narrative.

I remember the story of an old Cordorian guard PC I was told that always resonates with me. This guard was respected not because he was judge dredd, or because he was nice to the poor. He was respected because his player knew that sometimes you had to lose, to look the other way for the fun of all. This is no more evident than the story that he lives in: Guard catches a thief. Thief then says "Hey look over there!" Now... the guard has the choice of playing along, or showing how gruff and tough he is. The guard plays along, looks over his shoulder "Huh? There's what?" And when he turns back the thief had booked it disappeared into the night. And now they have a story, not just a prison sentence. Little givings like that on an OOC level mean the world IC.

Since this is a persistent world with a persistent story we have a duty as storytellers (as we are with our characters) to bend and break to fit the narrative. The statement: It's what my PC would do. Is a cop out, a veiled excuse for destruction of story integrity if used in such a context.


Banning from city's has steadily eroded the integrity of playing anything outside of the status quo, we see it in the rise and fall of factions, the heavy alignment setup of the server and the track record of a specific type of faction being consistently dashed to the rocks over the years. Some last weeks, others last months, but none last.
Some people believe that evil is meant to lose, that people who play evil should accept their inevitable defeat, and for some evils that is something I can certainly empathize with, but be that as it may the fact that the only role play between good and evil should be do-or-die conflict is painful on an OOC level. It leads us to feeling that we have to win or lose in situations because that's how conflict works. What happened to the days when evil could slowly corrupt, could exist like a tiefling "Good guy" who would threaten to assassinate a tyrant's daughter if he didn't lay off the people.

Where's the chance for good and evil to try and convert one another? Look at stories like star wars, one of the running themes in it's grand story of good and evil is the battle of attrition and moral corruption of the prequels, and then for the originals Luke managing to subvert his all-too-human emotions to walk the line of what it is to be good.



I propose we take a mom and pop approach, in my home when I was a child when my brothers and I would get into it my parents would scream "TAKE IT OUTSIDE" and we'd beat the snot out of each other, and then it was settled... for a week. In context to the server I'd say instead of banning people for "being evil" we should reserve bannings for truly egregious mistakes that happen -on the premises-.

This way we can actually start roleplaying together. Our evil chars can walk up to a paladin whom is generally hidden behind a holy wall and actually have a conversation, one that could be world-shattering to either side. A man steeped in his vileness basking in the glory of a glowing paladin's stalwart sensibilities is just as likely to have a revelation as a paladin might to being faced with something truly reprehensible. "Diamonds are forged under great pressure" and you don't experience great pressure unless you're challenged. Don't you want to be challenged, don't you want diamonds?This can't happen in the current atmosphere, because if you state even for a second you dipped your toe in the evil water you're.. frankly.. fuckin' donezo.

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bad man

I'd rather see a system where bans have to have some level of common sense arbitration, and non violent acts or whatever would be in with a temp ban, where as outright within the city murder would get a lifer.

Needing a dm to sign off on bans would help a lot, so would a warning or something before perma.

It's what I do in Enders and the Frozenfar because, having been on the receiving end of bs bans, I don't ooc want to do that to people. Unless you kill or say or plot that you're going to kill our citizens, you can come back. Even the I have removed the name of every single person that came to me ic and asked for another chance and have had zero repeat offenses.

That's my suggestion. Make people start with a temp ban, require dm intervention, require proper notification, no blanket faction bans outside of open war declarations.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Add Bendir and Runedar and I think you got them all.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Your damned if you do, your damned if you don't.... the problem is that it can bite you in the ass and why risk it.

Yes people OOC loved the guard for allowing them to have their bit of fun....and he keeps doing it....The problem then becomes is IC if I was the guards boss I have two logical ways of looking at it
1.The guard really sucks at his job given the amount of people that escape his literal grasp because they said "LOOK! DISTRACTION" or what ever the case may be
2. The guard is corrupt and he is letting them go.

Then factor in if IC the DM has to RP the effects of the thief you keep letting go, so crime keeps increasing and it effects towns people poorly that in turn reflects poorly on the guards as I stated above.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Unless Cor'Xak counts, Grove, Fort Summer, Thraandariv/Nec'Perya, Shadowdancer Academy.

There always are more places you can be banned from.


On the other side, HoJo manages to do stuff in cities. He was banned in Wharftown before that Masquerade.

To be honest, Cordor has a population of 15000 people. viewtopic.php?f=123&t=79132
Is the guard really going to identify everyone? Most of all when many places are not guarded? Kohlingen at least guards every entrance, but do they really have the time to search everyone? Or question for that fact? Or even really look at?

Or, cory, how many arrests do you think a Cordorian guard does offscreen? Zero? If that was true, how was anyone ever a guard PC?
I remember Runescape having it's own little 4th wall breaking joke. The game world is smaller than the lore world.

Because it's development. Because it actually forces your character in to a situation out of your control. Why people make their characters with an exact endgame in mind, so whatever might happen inbetween that could potentially spoil this ends up pissing them off, is beyond me.

I don't know who the guard was, but in relation to "why risk it" because, well, they probably COULD be the be-all and end-all PC Guard, but if they do get fired from the position, well, what does the guard do next? It's a journey, not about stagnating your character to the point where the biggest development they have is you as a player killing them off.

This whole topic is dissolving in to two arguments:


1. IC bans.

2. OOC bans.


The answer to 1. is to fucking RP. If you're banned, be it because a PC heard a rumour and won't hear your opinion, or perhaps the sister of the big law guy watched your PC do something out of context, you're banned and you need to RP either you way out of it or your way back in.

The answer to 2. is talk to a damn DM if you feel as if it is a sole targeting of you and if you feel it is an attack on you as a player.

How the now dwindled down Amian playerbase can make a mountain out of a mole hill still continues to amaze me.

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I was never contacted baout such from the makers and keeps of the list I had other players inform me of such.

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A convo we get a ooc lot because we have to warn ppl ooc if they are seen talking to us they are banned from several rp hubs;

"So if I hang out in the fort I'm banned from several cities? You guys didn't do anything."

"Yes, banned from those cities, and likely more to come."

So ppl weigh their options ooc.

And its stifling.

And there's nothing that can be done from our end. Letters don't get returned, requests for audiences or meetings or clarifications get ignored or blown off. The ban is permanent and non negotiable.

That's just how it goes. Welcome to Amia.

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ANT ALARM

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That character also didn't speak common and refused to accept a rez at the time so I had no way to ic notify you.

Come to enders or send me a letter and have a way to communicate ic and we can talk it out.

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ANT ALARM

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I was banned from Shadow scape's Academy so you're missing that.


[That character also didn't speak common and refused to accept a rez at the time so I had no way to ic notify you.]

Terry is My character if you didn't know.

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Ok, so you're banned from a /city/ and not a faction area.

Have you talked to the DM who oversees the city? If you outright get no response, have you tried PMing someone else?

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Terry was banned by the prior captain I wasn't around at the time. I am eager to meet Terry ic so I know wtf you are doin on the banlist.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Our entire faction is banned from two cities and the most recent ban has a note saying a dm did it so I can't talk to anyone ig ic about it.

We don't know why. No dm reply yet.

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ANT ALARM

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In my experience I've only been banned form very few places on very tentative evidence at all but since the bans -seemingly- work off the same idea as to how players can kick some one out of their factions for IC -or- OOC reasons it seems similar ban wise as I know the basis for some of my bans have been tainted by OOC reasoning. In my experience you just gotta role with it because no one cares to 'fix' the issue or look in to the reasons of both sides of the story.

As far as banning some one goes I don't believe you need to tell them but I figure it's polite to at least tell the player such has been done so they are at least notified from the source of the ban keeper / maker.

Terry's banned for attacking some one else on that particular ban list.

If you really want to meet him IC / IG let me know when you want to and I'll hop over for you.

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I'm curious ic. If you want to show up feel free. If not thats cool too.

But Enders not the Fort. Say you sent me a letter to meet or something.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

You asked IC why some of these people on the list were banned prior and you were given an answer. Others can clearly do the same.



Incorrect. The note says it was done with a DM, not by a DM. The post is clearly made by a PC. You're welcomed to ask PCs about it, thus.

My thoughts align with Kamina all around. My PCs have been banned for incidents outside of settlement grounds, without warning or notice. You roll with it IC and try to get it appealed if you really care that much to start forum topics over it.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

I have and am. As have others. It's in work, I assume, as I have heard nothing but silence.

I still do not believe the instant jump to permanent faction/player ban that seems to be trending is needed. Why is it not a week or month first? Or even a conversation to bring up concerns? It's crazy and totally overboard.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

When people feel that's the safest way to protect the people under their charge, then that's just how it is. I don't see why it has to be such a huge problem OOC. You're basically saying, "I don't care what your IC reason is. I'm mad OOC and you're all jerks for being paranoid IC."

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That's a strawman, and it's not how I feel at all. Please read my other posts.

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ANT ALARM

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I've personally heard nothing about your asking, so maybe you should start reaching out to other relevant people as well, if there are any.

As for permanent banning, I think it's a trend, in part, because it's the status quo. People follow accepted molds and examples. They see people are banned indefinitely until a successful attempt to repeal and don't think about alternatives such as temporary banning.

Cordor was an exception, because usually we would just fine people and kick them out for a week. But that's because Cordor is fairly neutral and doesn't really care if you're evil outside of certain religions, as long as you aren't a terrorist and raking in the gold through trade and using their businesses.

Places like Kohlingen and Wharftown are obviously different and won't react the same way, however, which is an IC thing.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

Want to post this again so it goes to get buried. With banlists ballooning recently its a big deal given that ic I could walk around the town but ig I can't due to the way area transitions work.

Also, again nobody is required to respond to any pm or letter or request for a meeting regarding any ban. Sometimes you reach out with a question and get only silence and there's no recourse.

Irl we have a three strikes rule in some states, it's very controversial due to huge punishments on a third offense even if the singular crimes arnt bad at all. On Amia people get lifetime exiles for precrime. No warning, second chance, or even a conversation or a response when a request for clarification is made.

Its just not realistic, and it's rampant.

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ANT ALARM

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Clearly, I need to ban you from the Grove now. Need to make the experience complete, afterall.

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I think we're missing the forest for the trees. Bans ruin gameplay and opportunities for both parties, but it's most easily felt on the receiving end. I firmly believe as Gygax himself stated that there needs to be some leeway and OOC bending to make the game enjoyable for all.

Suspension of disbelief and a holistic view of the server ethos would do us well when deciding how to react. And just for reiteration's sake: Because my character would do it is lower on the totem pole than "What makes the greatest story, and the most fun for parties involved"

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bad man

I can say this is false, speaking as a dm eho say these things happen and as a player who had then happen to them.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You're always supposed to be allowed access to the transportation systems regardless of bans, just don't obviously loiter around. But there are usually easy alternatives. As an example of Wharftown, there's the lamp and the cart. The cart takes you to the Delta, which you can instead reach from the outskirts of West Cordor or bind there and portal to it.

The lamp to Wharftown isn't really too useful unless you intend to go to the Gulf of Lumier or Blood Moon Pass, which you should be allowed to do, again as long as you don't loiter. The third exit can be reached by just using the flag from the Travel Agency and turning around into the transition.

I think the same can be said of Kohlingen's cart to the Salandran temple. As far as I've always seen you're allowed to access the carts because it's needlessly inconvenient otherwise. DMs can verify there.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

This is an excellent post.

IC bans represent an opportunity for character growth and storytelling, both for the individual and those involved. But to actively (even OOCly) prevent any interaction between any characters is an absolute loss to all parties.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Plz no

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Also my posts are only about whole cities not faction areas.

If you have a faction area, please, I encourage you to remove anyone for any reason ig or ooc.

But a whole city is different.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

IC bans limit interaction which in turn limits rp

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Allow me to reiterate: IC bans allow an arc for development. But to say "lol u r banned forever" without resolve is simply stupid. This is where the OOC ban argument arises.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Please elaborate. Does /every race, alignment, worshiper, degree of criminality/ deserve access to /every city/?

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Allow yourself some suspension of disbelief; there's always a way in, and guards shouldn't be godmodding, metagaming, trueseeing terminators.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

I'd go a step further and say that it should be recognized as the homogenizing status-quo enforcing system that it is which regulates and reinforces a very stringent set of viable characters. IE: not evil, at all.

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bad man

That's not what I am saying. When you create a character of x-race you already know they are banned in y-towns, then you have probably thought out already what to do with the race bans. The largest problem is when all offensive actions / any attempt to start conflict ends up dealt with through bans when there are so many other ways one can deal with it and bring the story further.

It's also the degree required before people hand out bans. I've gotten permanently banned for criticizing guards, and one would figure that a guy killing people would be harder punished than a person criticizing guards, but in the end they aren't.

I personally feel like banning people on alignment is metagamey, a human character should be banned on actions and not alignment.

I do not think bans make much sense IC either, especially for cities and villages either, that wants to uphold an impression of rule of law (which should be true for Kholingen and Cordor at least, especially). When characters are banned without trials, but on the order of guards, then it shows that in the end the law doesn't have to be held seriously, it is the guards that decide. I feel like especially lawful characters would try to uphold the rule of law beyond what they feel.

Sidenote: you seem to think I feel like I have been ICly banned for OOC reasons, I never said that and hope that's not what happened.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Why don't we turn this conversation more beneficial:

To those that don't like the idea of IC banning from areas (whether it is justified or not), what do you think an alternate solution is? I would really like to see the discussion turn down this direction, as squabbling over what is currently happening is not very helpful. If we can come up with reasonable alternatives, then perhaps bans can get phased out (except for in the most extreme of cases).

For my stance, I see the good and the bad of bans. Yes they can hamper RP, however at the same time if you do do something awful then you shouldn't complain about being banned (though permabans shouldn't be a thing unless, again, you are a repeat offender or something like a serial murderer). Of course if you didn't do something then yeah it makes sense to complain, but then again if you are siding with teiflings and/or evil people you should expect the Holy City to tell you to gtfo (mind this has happened before, not just in present times, and it makes entire IC sense; though perhaps trying to reason with said people would be better, redemption and/or saving souls RP anyone?).



Just cause this got in before I posted: Remember than actions do affect alignment. If you are evil it means you do bad things, sorry. But, then, this comes back to the underused point of redemption RP Redeem those lost souls, hoo yeah!

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

But then again you're extremely resourceful and popular You have a lot going for you. There are other people, new players or old players returning (like me) that don't share the same opportunities. With the wrong timezone it can be hard enough to engage in rp as it is, even more so if you get banned from half of the factions.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Action begets consequence.

RP loss or not, if you decide to frequently attack guards, break laws, play an openly admitting (or discovered) character of very opposing kind (Palemaster in the holy city full of paladin) then of course, you should get banned. Otherwise that RP you would obtain if not, would be completely worthless because it has no impact on anything. If nothing you do has impact (and that goes for negative impact just as much as positive) you may aswell stand in a corner and stare at a wall.

Now, city bans, should of course not be willy nilly like "guard X doesn't like your nose". Ideally city bans should also be reviewed by a DM as the key rule organism of a city is usually still DM controlled. (I exclude factions here, naturally)

I disagree with the opinion that bans outright kill RP. They can spark quite a lot of RP.

Ryriska, my half-devil, was banned from cordor once over a new law someone wanted to push through, that was not even active though. I still took it IC. Ryriska started to make connection. Speak and write letters to PC and NPC. Talked to other PC to convince them to vouch for her not having done any harm. Etc etc.

It took I think 3 months? I do not regret those 3 months one bit. And that was a ban my character, literally, didn't do anything.

There are many options. Try get unbanned by whatever means come to your mind. Get DM help, disguise, infiltrate, break in, whatever fits your characters style most. There are a LOT of RP oppertunities. Unless you decide to sit in a corner and gripe and pout ooc.

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I don't see much point in offering solutions when it feels like not everyone sees the problem.

For a starter however, I'd love to see Kholingen or Cordor or whomever, actually try to capture a villain to bring them to justice. But, people should remember that bringing justice is an end. They can let that be the reason for the next interaction with the villain/antagonist, but they should maybe let the villain grow, win a bit and so on before the final confrontation.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

One more thing.

If a city has a general rule like

"all people of faith x are banned"

"all evil people are banned"

"all unseelie are banned"

and your alignment/faith/alliance is NOT publically known, or known by the city in question. you can still enter.

Bans like this only are really active if they ban you, specifically, because they somehow found out OR you are obvious (parading around with plastered in symbols of Shar in Kohlingen)

P.S. this does not go for racial bans, as races are not that easily hidden, that requires DM supervision.

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We're not asking how the system works. We're saying why it stiffles RP.

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bad man

See my post above.

And I can still explain it because while YOU maybe didn't ask for it, does not mean that some players, especially newer ones, know.

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Thanks for clarifying, I was a bit concerned about that myself.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Sorry if that sounded a little snippy, wasn't meant to be I just feel like the heart of this keeps getting brushed over.

Someone asked for solutions? I think Commie's got the right of it in saying that faction bases are well within the realms of players to control... But cities? Hubs? Those should be strictly DM ban discretion, and they should do their due diligence to ensure that each ban is in the best interest of the server and RP as a whole.

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bad man

I hate to quote myself but, not sure if you read my whole post?

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Awesome. That's exactly in line with what I'm thinking. Let's make that instead of an ideal, the norm.

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bad man

I agree here. I understand if there's an actual thing you, or a group of you, did. But as it stands the current pattern is ban, then never communicate with or allow communication from the accused. While one might think this starts RP, it doesn't, because they just don't talk to you.

I understand that "it's all in character" but literally banning people forever due to their hypothesized associations is utterly absurd, and not giving them even a chance to properly explain what the hell was happening is even worse. I would understand utter silence if, say, someone got caught standing over a dead body knife-in-hand, but there weren't even any crimes committed in some of these cases.



Yeah. I'm still waiting on the WT ban clarification. Nobody involved will tell me why or what or how other then a DM did it, which was noted.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

This doesn't really go against what OpenTheRift said about characters challenging the status quo are those that get banned.
For people wanting to be in cities for IC good reasons more often than not get that chance, the problem is for characters that are created or intended for making conflict.

What if you are making a character to create conflict, or upset or challenge the status quo. The character might not do much evil, but it makes characters around it uncomfortable, I bet you'll find very quickly that if characters like these do something bad they are banned very quickly. For characters like this bans will stop rp more often than not.

While many of these bans for these kind of characters might make sense IC, other punishments or approachements could make as much sense, but these options are hardly chosen. You can make an antagonist without making a villain, but the way they are treated often turn out very similar.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

I think in the worst uses banning can border to anti-social (read: not asocial) behavior.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Just a fyi im about to go through and edit most of my posts because I made them all from a cell phone and want to fix mistakes.

edit; done. apparently im a phone posting master I only massacred a few phrases.

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ANT ALARM

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Missed this earlier, but I agree.

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