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Unfortunately, everyone here is immortal unless the player behind the character says otherwise. A shame, really. People can virtually do anything without any real risk.

LunarBloom wrote:

Unfortunately, everyone here is immortal unless the player behind the character says otherwise. A shame, really. People can virtually do anything without any real risk.

It's a pity! It should be three ways too, for all the three big spectrums of alignments.

Quote:

I think the 'problem' of Evil in Amia has a lot to do with the fact that we can't force long term consequences on each other

Oh come on dude, you leverage this against evil PCs when you're a prime part of the problem yourself? That's unfair and dishonest.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I think the 'problem' of Evil in Amia has a lot to do with the fact that we can't force long term consequences on each other

Oh come on dude, you leverage this against evil PCs when you're a prime part of the problem yourself? That's unfair and dishonest.

Let's not make this personal. It isn't. I wasn't leveraging anything against anyone. I explained in the next post I made that going down the 'forced consequence' road is tough because it has to go both ways.

This has always been a problem on both sides. No need to get defensive.

EDIT: Hell, I explained in the same post even. This has always been an issue. It will always be an issue. There's no way around it that isnt going to lead to more toxicity and hurt feelings.

Budly wrote:

LunarBloom wrote:

Unfortunately, everyone here is immortal unless the player behind the character says otherwise. A shame, really. People can virtually do anything without any real risk.

It's a pity! It should be three ways too, for all the three big spectrums of alignments.

I think this is something that is better handled between players and not forced by DM decision. Making Amia truly RP-heavy in the same vein as Arelith or one of the old 'zombie survival' servers(props if you remember those) would, I think, make community relations even more strained than they already are.

If evil can be 'punished' with serious consequences and/or permadeath by good characters, why wouldn't it make sense for evil characters to be able to impose serious consequences on or permakill other characters to start with?

If they can't permakill the good guys to start with but need to worry about it as a consequence of the RP, we'd end up with the same kind of imbalance we have now with the added benefit of having a lot of players salty about losing characters.

If you want to impliment consequences for evil characters, you need to be accept for the same for good characters. And both sides need to accept what thise consequences might be.

It seems like most people agree that consequences including permadeath for both good, evil,or anyone else for that matter would make things make sense. Can this opinion be translated into reality? I'd agree to it.

Eltryptich wrote:

It seems like most people agree that consequences including permadeath for both good, evil,or anyone else for that matter would make things make sense. Can this opinion be translated into reality? I'd agree to it.

I don't like permadeath in general. Much less for pvp.

Consequences? Yes. Enforced jail/prisoner rp? Yes.

Peramadeath? No.

I agree with Commie. Enforce Prison rp.

Then again I happen to enjoy prison rp on both sides of the coin be it keeper or prisoner so perhaps I'm just biased. But never the less perma is bad.

PassionateShadow wrote:

I agree with Commie. Enforce Prison rp.

Then again I happen to enjoy prison rp on both sides of the coin be it keeper or prisoner so perhaps I'm just biased. But never the less perma is bad.

I just like the idea of prison rp. Go send someone to the quarry until they bring back 30 granite units. Or make them stand in the bendir dale orchard until they present a satisfactory amount of juice.

Last time prison RP came up, the discussion was that prison was a way to "get rid" of people they didn't want to "deal with". i.e. not RP with you because you annoy me.

I always found in my experience that it varied with whoever was doing the imprisoning. Winya honestly RPed so much with Caron when he was imprisoned, it was awesome (even if some of Winya hated him and therefore me). Cordor did a pretty good job with him and other characters I've had imprisoned there, too. When I played drow it was honestly some of the best RP, when people got captured or punished or whatnot.

But it does seem like lately that prison RP is nonexistent, and viewed as stated above. Caron's is, at least. I haven't heard of anyone enjoying it on other characters either, in a long while.

I hope I don't offend anyone but I just don't get the problem with permadeath. All that comes of it is you roll a new pc.

Prison rp is very cool on either side of the coin to me as well. Torture all the better. I know there are rules but if all agree, it's rad. Way better than tea time rp... just MHO.

Eltryptich wrote:

I hope I don't offend anyone but I just don't get the problem with permadeath. All that comes of it is you roll a new pc.

Prison rp is very cool on either side of the coin to me as well. Torture all the better. I know there are rules but if all agree, it's rad. Way better than tea time rp... just MHO.

Sorry, after being in the service and dealing with the waterboarding scandal irl I simply refuse to condone 'torture' rp, barring it being super light (smacks him around a bit! hits his knee with a hammer!) and lacking descriptions, but I wouldn't participate in that either or even be nearby. But my life experiences are unique in this.

Permadeath I don't like due to it encouraging a pc to wrangle up some random guys online and mob-squadding someone and trying to push a perma.

Commie wrote:

Eltryptich wrote:

I hope I don't offend anyone but I just ng idon't get the problem with permadeath. All that comes of it is you roll a new pc.

Prison rp is very cool on either side of the coin to me as well. Torture all the better. I know there are rules but if all agree, it's rad. Way better than tea time rp... just MHO.

Sorry, after being in the service and dealing with the waterboarding scandal irl I simply refuse to condone 'torture' rp, barring it being super light (smacks him around a bit! hits his knee with a hammer!) and lacking descriptions, but I wouldn't participate in that either or even be nearby. But my life experiences are unique in this.

Permadeath I don't like due to it encouraging a pc to wrangle up some random guys online and mob-squadding someone and trying to push a perma.

Well of course mob-squadding would be bullshit. I guess I don't assume grown people would do that. I would hope if perma would ever be something enforced, that there'd be some kind of guidelines. Even still, if my chr did something that would warrant a posse being rounded up and they hunted and killed me, then if it made sense and there was no way to rezz me, I'd be a goner even if it wasn't an enforceable thing.

On the torture thing I get it. I myself refuse to do full on erotic rp even off game. Not that it's gross, but it's pointless. To each his or her own though.

I do realize that perma would never be enforced here, I am just putting forth a different perspective. I have played on servers that enforced death. That was a very long time ago and they dried up, but the struggle was fun. It's been my experience that it's better to raise the bar and expect people to rise to meet it than to lower it because you don't expect much out of people.
l

I am not quite sure what happended here before I had to leave back in the days.

But it sounds like you got some serious issue with people who cannot take consequences and bullies who abuse any mechanic there is to bully people out of here. You can RP in a prison, especially if you sit there with your goblin friends and has to work in the Bendir Dale mine or whatever the leaders make up on the spot.

To constantly burn down the grannery or what people now do in random settlemen is also a bully thing then, cause they know oocly their character do not have to care, they will always be back. We need to still respect the IC situation that this time, just this time maybe there be no priest in time or your soul is so screwed you cannot be raised. The whole lack of punishment and execution kinda renders the wide mentality I seen a few times, that death means nothing and "I will be back". It hurts the RP more than it gives, people want their characters but do you want no fear that your evil, good or neutral actions to other parts might have you hurt yourself?

Torture do not have to be brutal, it can be like the torture in Crusader Kings 2, there is an option to find the kid with the worst voice and the worst way of reading, reading poetry to the captured for hours. Or singing horribly. I mean the torture can be turned into something more of a "wtf this was kinda funny moment" as you recite the 200 verses of the Elven journey to Waterdeep or whatever weird poetry is out there.

Budly wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Budly

Everyone has their RP standards and beliefs. You are very passionate about yours.
Shoving your "suggestings" onto people who not of asked for them came come out terribly. Not saying what your intentions are. It just looks like someone trying to be elitist, tell others they are wrong for RPing their car (no matter how silly it may seem to you), is a crappy thing to do.

Good evil, and neutral, they arne't going to work as they do in reality. Hell, Amia is a strange magical place for misfits and freaks, pretty odd by DnD Faerun stands. Just gotta try to roll with things. Play your char how you see fit.

Look I've felt this way on the way some people play theirs characters and what, for example, what I sued to mock people for as "everyone playing a Drizzt' good elf. I opened my mind, STOPPED JUDGING, spent time IC and OOC, no hard feelings, had a good time. Even if there I don't full agree with, it's the way they play, it's their char, and they aren't breaking any rules. I've seen RP all around I'ved loved, some was okay, some I hated, some I thought was absolutely dumb and frustrating, Amia is that nice mixed bag of crazy. Embrace it

I see good vs evil stuff I think is dumb. As someone else mentioned, Good group conflicts with small evil group. Now half the good and half the NEUTRAL factions are joining in for a big WTFPWN LULZ. Legal, but not how you want to see it go down 99% of the time. ALmost accidentally happend to me when my char was told grealy overaggerated enemy numbers. Shit happens, ya move on

Start letting stuff go, drop the ego a bit, and stop acting above everyone else. I don't care what degrees in college you have. Should be about having fun, if you aren't having fun, make a chance, do something different, play something completely new.

I'm pretty sure ALL of us have had frustrations about some asrepect, rule, lore regarding Amia. Stating your opinion I have no problem with. Telling people they are wrong for RPing their char is a bit much.
If you don't like what you see, you have the option of getting in the role you want and showing us lesser roleplayers how to truly do it..

Sorry, that last part was rude, but you get what I'm saying. The point remains. Give your forum opinion, but instead of causing contention judging people, just get in there and try to RP and lead by example. Best think you can really try. And all these responses aren't hate on Budly day,I'm pretty sure a large part of us want you to have a smooth, fun enjoyable time here.

That is how you read this? I question how people RP?

Just based on what I've seen lately, mostly all on this thread. That's just how it comes off to me, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything and I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh. Being a server with different cultures and nationalities, it's easy for things to get misinterpreted and for communication to break down. I've had my own difficulties with communication myself, and I'm 100% positive I come off sometimes in a way I did not intend.

Alot of what spurred that, is that it's what it looked like, and I've seen the attitude I described alot in the past, not just on Amia, but other places, pnp, etc. Just letting you know how it could be interpreted, because if this wasn't how you meant to come off, pointing out how it looks might help you avoid it. Just food for thought really. Not saying I'm good at communicating or superior at it, because I'm not, just trying to help.
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Alot of the problem I think comes from the fact that alot of people don't want to/can't play evil. So the spectrum tends to lead to most players playing good or neutral. So there will always be that unbalanced balance of power.

There is frustration on both sides. There is no easy solution, or not one that we can fairly enforce. Permadeath doesn't work, and isn't right, because people can pour hundreds or thousands of hours into a character, only to have it all end. Realistic? Yes, but seeing all the work done on a character flushed down the toilet sucks. However, I think as a community, and some players actually do the following, props, is instead of perma, if they get killed and rekt IC, they have their characters out for awhile, or atleast handicapped/injured to take them out of the fight, but still able to RP. Because lets face it, Amia RP is addictive, and when you get taken out IC, sometimes the conflict is so fun it's hard not just to jump right back in and RP some more.

However, given the balance of good and evil, I think I'm a bit more prone to overlook when evil does this a bit more, simply due to the fact that evil gets outnumbered and gangbanged alot. I know alot of neutral players will tend to join up with good, for many different reasons, alot of them happening to be IC and following their character, who may be trying to help out an IC friend or whatever, or upholding an alliance. It sucks, but that's the reality of the situation.

Some people just want to be involved in the fun and action and big RP happenings. Some people don't want to be seen as evil and become outcasts, so they join with good just because. In that case I'd like it if more attention was paid to "does my character REALLY feel the need, or have a REAL reason to get involved in this, or am I just bored, or do I just want to be involved and included in everything?

Nothing can really be enforced about this, but if as a community we are more aware of this and the overall and long term repercussions, maybe attitudes might shift a bit and things become more fair. If your character doesn't really have any IC and RP motivation or purpose joining in the battle, consider getting involved in a non combatant role. Whether it's to assist the fallen and wounded, to simply observe, whatever, there are plenty of ways to be included without taking a side. Gather information, note strengths and weaknesses, see how you can use the situation to your benefit, or just try to have your character try to understand simply what's going on in the world. Maybe in the confusion and distraction, try to drag a fallen combatant away and gain favor that way. Especially if a DM is present, let them know you are taking away a body (since you can't mechanically do it), and see if they are okay with it in that moment.

I know it's fun and it's easy to be like, oooh, fun drama I want to get involved in this, and quickly pick a side and hop in. Consider the angles a bit more and try to focus on the character aspect. Nothing wrong with having the instinct to join, and have fun. Just think about it a bit more. Also consider expanding horizons a bit, maybe your character WOULD want to help evil, maybe not, all just depends on your IC goals, attitudes, and perceptions of things.

Sometimes I see people who aren't normally combatants, or idealists who aren't into violence normally jump in. Overwhelming odds, not alot of risk. It would be fun to see some people play their characters as too afraid or intimidated to get involved, or simply not want to make a random gamble with their life. Lack of permadeath can encourage this, but people should realize even if you can get raised easily enough, death isn't supposed to be fun, wounds happen in combat, they are not fun (unless the char gets off on pain or something). Death and combat wounds aren't supposed to be pleasant and the natural instinct to avoid such needs to be considered. Hell, it would be funny to see some pacifists come join and try to start a protest, get in the middle of the groups and try to prevent it. There are alot of ways to react to all of this.

My final thoughts are that as a community, we can change our mentality a little bit and find ways to improve the situation through our attitudes and minor tweaks. Enforcing certain rule changes I think would be more harmful than good, no need to restrict our creativity and freedom by enforcing things people don't want. Anyways, done rambling, just wanted to give some ideas on the matter and my perspective.

No worries

I have full respect for your opinion and I am sorry if I came of a bit elitistic.

I have perma killed characters on POTM, 3 as a matter of fact

A evil Drow, twice even...cause the priestess felt like raising her after a while.

A Wizard turned evil, stabbed by his Fey'ri student while sleeping

A mercenary warrior killed by the guardsmen of Vallaki when he did not obey their orders to be whipped in public. Killed by veteran guardsmen and corpse stolen by a secret faction to hide away.

Perma killing can in the end give impact too.

My biggest weakness in a way is that im stubborn and I do not change my viewpoint easily. Sometimes I read really weird IC acts as infused with OOC Malicious griefing and this turns bad, a bad habit you can say. So a mentality bit different I guess, is a good thing but it is hard to achieve! Speaking from my own personal experiences.

I don't understand the problem with perma-death. It's so easy to play someone that won't get threatened or risk it at all, if you don't want to lose your PC. It's just that people will do anything, since they OOC know that nothing will be pushed on them.

Permadeath? Player decision.
Prison? 24 hours NWN break.

People roll new characters all the time, because that's who we are; players. We are not the characters, and in such a setting, shouldn't be afraid to let them go.

When push comes to shove few people keep to their word involving death or consequences. Especially on Amia where it's a pain to level and get items, without the ability to refurbish your characters into someone else. Everything on the third page of this topic is shit you can do already without policy change. Be the change you want to be rather then arguing about it. You will never see me take death or wounds flippantly. (Maiti was blind for a month and I've waited weeks for resurrection despite losing pvp to someone breaking rules.) And on the other hand I don't treat killing lightly. I won't emote killing anyone unless I know without question that the player will have it affect their character's narrative. If I do something other then these things, go ahead and call me out for it.

although im from a time permadeath was a active thing, and some factions even had permadeath joining contract. I do not have generally something against it.. provided a very good reason. and even then a true resurrection can undo it in some cases. (heck even i am responsible for a few permadeath cases, granted most where in the cordor setting, where fucking with the city means this risk)

But i can understand why some people do not like it, as they put many hours in a character, spend many dc's on special items, worked their way up a faction. and then lose that all. so i can understand the dislike of some people.

I generaly as alternative liked, the destroying of some one reputation (the character, not the person behind it) or if the issue is more faction vs faction, to make the faction smaller and carries less influence.

Also i think one ic issue with permadeath is that in the forgotten realms setting we live in.. heroes and adventurers (especially those with gods or friends) can easily get back from death, a back up plan, a scrol, a item, divine intervention, or just your grumpy uncle you agreed with you pay his rent, but if word reach him you died, he must use a bag of gold and that fingernail you gave him to have you raised at the local church.. so you can continue to pay his rent.

the more alternative and devastating things are putting some one under a permanent anti locate spell and a imprisonment spell (hundreds of feat in a stasis bubble under the ground) but with server rules over this.. it becomes a pnp spell x2, that needs consent, and a maximum of 24 hours only.. or again consent. But then again with consent permadeath is also a option

If you think levelling here is bad you should try out POTM. There is not even any indication in the exp bar anymore and you only get vague texts and get exp blocked pretty damn early on.

Perma death is a complicated matter. Sometimes we get to door where your characters life comes to an end. I am contemplating killing Jron myself right now. He is buried...so Im not sure what to do.

Budly wrote:

If you think levelling here is bad you should try out POTM. There is not even any indication in the exp bar anymore and you only get vague texts and get exp blocked pretty damn early on.

Perma death is a complicated matter. Sometimes we get to door where your characters life comes to an end. I am contemplating killing Jron myself right now. He is buried...so Im not sure what to do.

Environment dictates. Everyone here is 30. Few people are max level there.

I've not been paying attention to this thread too much, but I decided to click on it today.
I saw the mention of Perma-Death, and will put my 2cents in on that only, as I play Evil Characters frequently and have never once had a problem in anyway with being an evil character, but Perma-Death, I do have a problem with.

Perma-Death however, is another matter entirely.

It is a two way street and must be agreed upon by both players, it should never be enforced.
Doing so would not only limit interactions with people, but it would eventually make some people who have put time and effort into their character simply give up playing.

A note on there being no Perma-Death unless agreed upon, when someone is resurrected they should be losing at least 8 hours of memory, that means.. if you woke up, walked out side, got into a fight and killed, then resurrected, the last thing you would remember is that you went to sleep last night in your bed, and are now waking up outside your house.

This particular rule should be enforced, as to stop people from going back and going straight after the people that attacked them.
In some cases, people who are victims of this, have nightmares about what happened, having no idea that it actually occurred, unless someone were to tell them that they were found dead and brought back to life.
At which point, the person may not even believe them, because why would they? They don't remember being killed, or even being attacked.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say on this thread.

Edit:
Also, there is plenty of risk. You quickly find that if you are someone who goes around killing people repeatedly, that you cant move very far without being persecuted by others.
An Example: The Banites of Old, killed many people, just because. Their bases were destroyed and pretty much every Banite had a Kill on Sight Order, and groups of people would often roam around hunting them down. That's a pretty big Risk, being hunted every time there is a hint of you being around.
It kinda ruins the drive to play that character, which eventually ICly either Drives the character off, or they die for real.
(Though in saying the whole 'ruining the drive to play that character' thing, people could argue that playing their characters and having no repercussions for their actions or nothing 'worthy' done to them in return for their actions, ruins the drive to play a character. Which I can also understand, but there can always be repercussions if you think about it and threats to your character or others, that don't simply involve the finality of Death.)
In the words of my Fae - "Death is so Final, I prefer to watch them squirm and crumble, without ever seemingly lift a finger, a smile on my face the whole time."

-Winter.

8 hours seems pretty long. But I'd personally (partly due to some of the characters I used to play *cough* Mez *cough*) love some time loss. Even if it just is *you don't remember the last hour/half an hour/ten minutes... It would again, make Assassins more viable for Assassinations. I mean now, you do one hit and your cover is likely gonna be blown, and (this is purely my imagination playing) I doubt you can even be sure a helmet/mask/hood would save you there. Or never standing in line of sight.

Akhlys wrote:

Budly wrote:

If you think levelling here is bad you should try out POTM. There is not even any indication in the exp bar anymore and you only get vague texts and get exp blocked pretty damn early on.

Perma death is a complicated matter. Sometimes we get to door where your characters life comes to an end. I am contemplating killing Jron myself right now. He is buried...so Im not sure what to do.

Environment dictates. Everyone here is 30. Few people are max level there.

It is still easier to hit 30 here than 20 there. There is a lot of people on 15+ there which holds powerful positions. I say a permadeath there is more costy than here, if you consider the time sink to max or get to a reasonable level to explore everything.

My first online NWN experience was on a server called Shadows of the Sword Coast (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Sword_Coast). It was RP PVP heavy, with prominent factions on both sides of the coin. However, unlike Amia, Evil was the dominating alignment, and Good were the ones being hunted and had to band together to protect themselves. If you died, your corpse (and your entire inventory) dropped to the ground and your spirit went to the Fugue Plane and was only resurrectable via Resurrection (not Raise Dead) if your corpse was available to cast on. The issue however, was that your corpse could be both picked up and destroyed. So four things happened when you died and did not have buddies around to save your corpse. 1, your attacker obliterated your body as soon as it hit the ground. 2, your body was obliterated in AoE spells as soon as it hit the ground. 3, your body was stolen and held at ransom. 4, everything you owned was stolen.

As you can imagine, characters didn't survive very long, and those that did never ever traveled alone. As more and more people died off, those that remained alive became more and more powerful as they remained geared and max level, and before long, players rebuilding had very little chance to ever get back to a position of power to compete. The complaints rolled in and fell on deaf ears and things went downhill from there.

The moral of the story in my experience is that perma-death kills off more than just characters, it kills off players. As for SotSC, it was great fun whilst it lasted and had some of the most memorable faction vs faction gameplay I can remember before things started to get abusive.

NAUX wrote:

My first online NWN experience was on a server called Shadows of the Sword Coast (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Sword_Coast). It was RP PVP heavy, with prominent factions on both sides of the coin. However, unlike Amia, Evil was the dominating alignment, and Good were the ones being hunted and had to band together to protect themselves. If you died, your corpse (and your entire inventory) dropped to the ground and your spirit went to the Fugue Plane and was only resurrectable via Resurrection (not Raise Dead) if your corpse was available to cast on. The issue however, was that your corpse could be both picked up and destroyed. So four things happened when you died and did not have buddies around to save your corpse. 1, your attacker obliterated your body as soon as it hit the ground. 2, your body was obliterated in AoE spells as soon as it hit the ground. 3, your body was stolen and held at ransom. 4, everything you owned was stolen.

As you can imagine, characters didn't survive very long, and those that did never ever traveled alone. As more and more people died off, those that remained alive became more and more powerful as they remained geared and max level, and before long, players rebuilding had very little chance to ever get back to a position of power to compete. The complaints rolled in and fell on deaf ears and things went downhill from there.

The moral of the story in my experience is that perma-death kills off more than just characters, it kills off players. As for SotSC, it was great fun whilst it lasted and had some of the most memorable faction vs faction gameplay I can remember before things started to get abusive.

That sounds like a freaking awesome server!

I guess it was, but if you were not a powerbuilder (and I mean, rock solid built to the teeth pvper, know your stuff backwards), you were as good as dead in PVP or PVE. RP was more of an after thought (not to say that it didn't exist and there weren't plot lines, it just doesn't compare to Amia). On an OOC level, everyone knew what they were getting in to and the risks that faced them by playing on the server. There was no grey area, if you talked shit you got hit, no matter what you had to say via Tell afterwards.

If there was a griefer who was going around perma killing players without any IC morality, sympathy or compassion, you simply hired the right people to deal with him and his character, or staked out his movements and location so that you could nail him as a group when he was alone. If you failed to kill him, then more power to his legacy, try again next time when you're stronger and have rebuilt or planned accordingly, leveling to 20-25 (out of 40) was fairly easily to do and items were reasonably well balanced and obtainable until things got ridiculously high magic (on hit: harm mace for example...), then it became pretty impossible to stop the one shot griefing when DM's would not intervene because the killing was "legal" as they were a follower of "X" chaotic evil god that demanded everyone die.

It's cool having consequences for death, especially when you deserved it for travelling alone, being unprepared in hostile areas or for talking shit. But once you start losing character after character, it gets old pretty quickly and will kill your playerbase pretty fast, leaving only the most hardcore players to fight the same battles over and over again when things are no longer even RP based, its just pure PVP revenge killing.

I truthfully believe that Amia cannot have good conflict(RP-wise) with the current death system it has. I've tried it and it only resulted in the 'defeated' returning with an army for revenge mere minutes later. The death system here is something so deeply nested inside the server-culture. These threads pop up once a year or so with basically the same complaints.

I think that it takes away a lot from being evil. It is partly why I made a goodly character that isn't interested in conflict. I just don't think it is worth it on an OOC level and it so happens to be the source for tons of drama. I can live without it.

To those who keep trying, bless you! I hope you find a shred of fun in it at least. I am burnt out.

I think one must focus more on faction pvp/eve/evp/pve, as suffering a defeat with only pc's is shameful but no permanent damage.. but if your faction loses his army of say 500 soldiers.. well that is a loss you are gonne feel

Also faction vs faction means options of permanent damage to bases/locations, something that also is very heavy on a faction.

+ factions are fun, faction wars and politics even more so

As for individual pvp issues, well the loser does not remember it even happening if he returns (exception there). and the winner got something to feel good about.

NAUX wrote:

I guess it was, but if you were not a powerbuilder (and I mean, rock solid built to the teeth pvper, know your stuff backwards), you were as good as dead in PVP or PVE. RP was more of an after thought (not to say that it didn't exist and there weren't plot lines, it just doesn't compare to Amia). On an OOC level, everyone knew what they were getting in to and the risks that faced them by playing on the server. There was no grey area, if you talked shit you got hit, no matter what you had to say via Tell afterwards.

If there was a griefer who was going around perma killing players without any IC morality, sympathy or compassion, you simply hired the right people to deal with him and his character, or staked out his movements and location so that you could nail him as a group when he was alone. If you failed to kill him, then more power to his legacy, try again next time when you're stronger and have rebuilt or planned accordingly, leveling to 20-25 (out of 40) was fairly easily to do and items were reasonably well balanced and obtainable until things got ridiculously high magic (on hit: harm mace for example...), then it became pretty impossible to stop the one shot griefing when DM's would not intervene because the killing was "legal" as they were a follower of "X" chaotic evil god that demanded everyone die.

It's cool having consequences for death, especially when you deserved it for travelling alone, being unprepared in hostile areas or for talking shit. But once you start losing character after character, it gets old pretty quickly and will kill your playerbase pretty fast, leaving only the most hardcore players to fight the same battles over and over again when things are no longer even RP based, its just pure PVP revenge killing.

You will need a really good gang of Dms for something like this. It would not work without it.

The whole problem with the Good vs Evil on Amia is the fact that, when it comes to the militaristic faction on either side, Good vs Evil is really a false dichotomy, because in reality it's "I'mma execute you and piss on your corpse and throw you in the river in the name of the Triad" or some other good pantheon or deity, versus "I'mma execute you and piss on your corpse and throw you in the river in the name of the Lolth", or some other evil deity or Pantheon.

I could imagine that if the tables were turned and evil were dominant that it would make sense for good-aligned characters to, in desperation, turn to rapid murder of evil individuals and their followers, that would actually make some interesting good roleplay in moral dilemmas and the like, and how to merely survive and get by. However, on Amia, the good factions are dominant, and wholly have the resources to imprison and attempt redemption and rehabilitation.

I mean, we live in a society where people ponder if others should be allowed to defend themselves with lethal means, and yet when "good" characters approach a pocket of possibly evil or more likely "morally unscrupulous" ones, I think it's absurd whenever diplomacy isn't the first option and the "good" character opts to smite and slay as a first priority.

All in all, however, it's not just the players, but the setting, that can be blamed for this. We have out good yet intolerant Kohlingen with level 30 NPC mages and rangers that can probably scry and track everyone's location to send the Silver Dragons to WTFBoom people, and this dominant power has invaded a nearby mercenary camp and impeded access to a former Underdark opening, and literally closed off natural ways of getting into Kohlingen's lands without going plain-sight through the road.

Whereas Kohlingen has this powerhouse that doesn't even need PC's to defend itself because its NPC's and overall lay out gives it the capacity to use both metaphorical Missile Defense Systems and Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, we saw in Nec'Perya, a Drow city that the PC's had to escape to because former settlements just upped and exploded, that the NPC's couldn't do anything in a fight, Eilistraeans could walk around unopposed and it was up to the players to set up a system that, whilst preventing them from getting in made the city very unapproachable at an OOC level and thus probably affected roleplay, has creatures as a very real threat even without other players getting in, and, well, the Drow lost their last city, and are stuck with L'Obsul now, the equivalent of Tarkuul when it comes to being perma-neutral with an "Evil in appearance but [BLANK] in morals and intent" city.

Diplomatic talks with people preaching Lolth and devils is a bit...strange, don't you think? How are you supposed to convince them?

I do agree that It is sad the Drow lost their settlements. Ultrinnan would not have fallen back in the prime like Nec'Perya. Nor do many Drow Settlements get invaded by surfaces forces as I know...

It's the intent and actions of either faction that separates one from another, methinks

that there is a difference between good and evil factions other than the fact that one is more likely to wear dark colors than the other. I don't think it's unreasonable that good people have traits that people associate, with, well, "good", yes?

Don't get me wrong, I do think that if character actions were taken further- that Holy Warriors do things a touch too fanatical or do things a touch too dark that they themselves, or their deities, have them endure repentance because of it, but to go around smashing people's heads in and giving mercy where it's due, and then treating these people as wholly good, I feel, isn't the way to go, that's not what good is about.

If you're neutral and you're just getting rid of a territorial threat, be my guest, but when you have the power of a goodly deity, I think the characters should hold themselves in higher regards, and the DM's for those who aren't strictly held by divine mandates but somehow have a Paladin class or good alignment.

Is talking to evil even that unreasonable? If you look back at the history of faerun devils were agents of good up until Asmodeus had his pact for the hells. They're also very logical creatures, evil yes, but logical. I could easily imagine a devil working with a group of good people to complete an agenda.

It is unreasonable to be diplomatic with a faction (Be it city state, local chapter of a diety or similar) that is the very essence of evil. Good should at it's absolute, never work with devils or demons. Or communicate in a diplomatic manner with people of pure evil like Blackguards.

I find it weird to go for diplomacy with people you know want to sell you as a slave or outright sacrifice you. There is evil factions that can be had diplomatic relationships with but savages races like Orcs, Drow and others or factions of pure evil, like demonic beings? Being good and having diplomatic relationships with a demon is just odd. And dealing with them? Isn't that how you end up without a soul?

Good is also essentially unstoppable here.

Kohl has the largest unchecked army, enormous walls, multiple gates, crates full of millions of gold and +5 items and ioun stones, gigantic navy, guard NPC's that can give a level 30 a run for their money, and shelters a fey that can perma characters. Remember the show-of-force when Wiltun dumped ants on Bendir? Within hours they had dragons/knights/paladin NPC's all over.

You can't fight it, and Tarkuul seems to be unwilling to, so that's pretty much the end of it. Try and fly under the radar.

Commie wrote:

Good is also essentially unstoppable here.

Kohl has the largest unchecked army, enormous walls, multiple gates, crates full of millions of gold and +5 items and ioun stones, gigantic navy, guard NPC's that can give a level 30 a run for their money, and shelters a fey that can perma characters. Remember the show-of-force when Wiltun dumped ants on Bendir? Within hours they had dragons/knights/paladin NPC's all over.

You can't fight it, and Tarkuul seems to be unwilling to, so that's pretty much the end of it. Try and fly under the radar.

Well back in the days I remember that the Banites bullied the whole island and killed 30 man party with 1/6 of that party pretty much themself when attacked. That is how I remember it.

Do people know it was Wiltun in game? Cause I see you Wiltun folks walk around Bendir Dale like nothing happended. I presume your tourney people are the Wiltun folks?

Budly wrote:

Commie wrote:

Good is also essentially unstoppable here.

Kohl has the largest unchecked army, enormous walls, multiple gates, crates full of millions of gold and +5 items and ioun stones, gigantic navy, guard NPC's that can give a level 30 a run for their money, and shelters a fey that can perma characters. Remember the show-of-force when Wiltun dumped ants on Bendir? Within hours they had dragons/knights/paladin NPC's all over.

You can't fight it, and Tarkuul seems to be unwilling to, so that's pretty much the end of it. Try and fly under the radar.

Well back in the days I remember that the Banites bullied the whole island and killed 30 man party with 1/6 of that party pretty much themself when attacked. That is how I remember it.

Do people know it was Wiltun in game? Cause I see you Wiltun folks walk around Bendir Dale like nothing happended. I presume your tourney people are the Wiltun folks?

pretty sure everyone knows it was wiltun in game. i put signs up ic all over with the details, they admitted to it repeatedly during the whole fiasco.

tourny people are not wiltun people no.

^^ edited with link

Uhhh so, Wiltun spread these out...which screws with the population in said areas and yet are okey folks in the eyes of the citizen there? It sounds like you can nuke or mana bomb or whatever you do in this setting for WMD's, someones home and they be fine with it if they survive. :lol:

Budly wrote:

Uhhh so, Wiltun spread these out...which screws with the population in said areas and yet are okey folks in the eyes of the citizen there?

welcome to the struggle.

Keep in mind Wiltun is heavily Lawful Evil in terms of alignment, and if anyone stepped out of line or started causing trouble they'll be dealt with swiftly and harshly depending on just how much trouble they cause. It's very much similar across all of Ruathym sans Caraigh because of its PC leadership.

This is all IC things that you should learn IC but:

The Formians were populating Khem, the Wiltun people struck a deal that they would locate another place for them. Unfortunately the Formians mislead the Wardens and took root in EVERY location the Wardens showed them, not just one.

This was all explained IC numerous times by people. That is why the Wardens are not KOS or whatever. It wasn't malicious, it was an attempt at saving Khem from being overrun.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Keep in mind Wiltun is heavily Lawful Evil in terms of alignment, and if anyone stepped out of line or started causing trouble they'll be dealt with swiftly and harshly depending on just how much trouble they cause. It's very much similar across all of Ruathym sans Caraigh because of its PC leadership.

Yeah pretty much. Hardline LE, and they just sort of do whatever. Most responses I hear IC are "but *person* is my friend."

NAUX wrote:

My first online NWN experience was on a server called Shadows of the Sword Coast (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Sword_Coast). It was RP PVP heavy, with prominent factions on both sides of the coin. However, unlike Amia, Evil was the dominating alignment, and Good were the ones being hunted and had to band together to protect themselves. If you died, your corpse (and your entire inventory) dropped to the ground and your spirit went to the Fugue Plane and was only resurrectable via Resurrection (not Raise Dead) if your corpse was available to cast on. The issue however, was that your corpse could be both picked up and destroyed. So four things happened when you died and did not have buddies around to save your corpse. 1, your attacker obliterated your body as soon as it hit the ground. 2, your body was obliterated in AoE spells as soon as it hit the ground. 3, your body was stolen and held at ransom. 4, everything you owned was stolen.

As you can imagine, characters didn't survive very long, and those that did never ever traveled alone. As more and more people died off, those that remained alive became more and more powerful as they remained geared and max level, and before long, players rebuilding had very little chance to ever get back to a position of power to compete. The complaints rolled in and fell on deaf ears and things went downhill from there.

The moral of the story in my experience is that perma-death kills off more than just characters, it kills off players. As for SotSC, it was great fun whilst it lasted and had some of the most memorable faction vs faction gameplay I can remember before things started to get abusive.

I have similar experience but without ridiculous magical items and the server didn't devolve in the same way. I can just say this thread seems pretty sad commentary for the state of affairs of a game played at least mostly by adults.

Every story has more than one side and not everything is black and white. What one character thinks happened doesn't mean that is what happened. And there were a lot of IC effort/happenings/consequences. Just because you or your character doesn't see them, doesn't mean nothing happened. Of course everyone is free to think what they want IC! They can believe rumors or lies or start them or talk to the people in question. That's what makes Amia great, you can play your character how you feel they should be played.

Nakomis Wolfen wrote:

Every story has more than one side and not everything is black and white. What one character thinks happened doesn't mean that is what happened. And there were a lot of IC effort/happenings/consequences. Just because you or your character doesn't see them, doesn't mean nothing happened. Of course everyone is free to think what they want IC! They can believe rumors or lies or start them or talk to the people in question. That's what makes Amia great, you can play your character how you feel they should be played.

+1 :D

This, really. I want to clarify that I was clearing things up OOC (and I only did so because this was information already told a lot IC) due to the fact that people getting faulty info OOC (instead of IC) can lead to misunderstandings (it happens to us all!).

Nakomis Wolfen wrote:

Of course everyone is free to think what they want IC!

Oh yeah absolutely.

"Evil" discussion.

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