AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

There has been a lot of confusion recently as to spells or spell slots can be considered 'exploits' if they are used in specific ways. Here are some examples;

1. Equipping an item that gives you a bonus spell slot.
2. Using metamagic spells while in forms.

These are pretty much exclusive to clerics/druids/shifters, as they are divine classes and thus have access to all the spells.

After talking to some members of the team, it has been confirmed that doing neither of these things are exploits; buying a 'natures mind' from the Grove as a druid 5/shifter X then using a para-elemental to level is some very old tech, it's actually one of the first things I ever was told to do (ic mind you) when I started on Amia. Likewise, using metamagics on form spells (such as call lightning) is something I see pretty much every single druid ever doing while leveling or while in events. Due to the longstanding and abundant nature of these things, as well as the actual RP requirements (you cannot cast druid spells if you arn't acting like a druid, even if it's on your bar) I don't see a reason to suddenly reverse years (decades?) of Amia gameplay by suddenly labeling either of these things an exploit. Additionally, I also don't see such a ruling enforceable at all as this sort of thing is, as far as I can tell, decades old and has always been done as it's just a core part of NWN.

So I'd like to open a discussion on this. Do you feel it's an exploit to cast an empowered call lightning as an air elemental? Or use a summon monster IX amulet as a shifter?

I personally do not.

This is currently under discussion by the team.

Also if you are a Druid 5/ Shifter X and you aren't RPing the druid then this is a huge no no period.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Also if you are a Druid 5/ Shifter X and you aren't RPing the druid then this is a huge no no period.

Exactly.

That's why I felt so absolutely blind-sided today where, after my rebuild, I was told this may be an exploit. But it's been on for years and years and tons of characters do it.

I don't feel it is an exploit, as long as the RP justifies being granted the spell. If it is a 'bug,' it should be a whitelisted/sanctioned 'bug' only allowed with the RP conditions. Because unless something changes on the backend, it's not enforceable, making this an 'actionable exploit' is going to blindside a ton of people, fuck a lot of characters, and necessitate a ton of rebuilds, not to mention policing.

And if there is going to be backend work to fix exploits, I have other ones that are far far far far worse and don't print to combat log (make anyone flat footed at any time with no trace) that need to be fixed first that have also been reported.

IF (and as said this is still under discussion) this would be deemed an exploit then of course it is enforcable. While we may not catch everyone, it is just as enforcable as a non AA using UMD to use AA arrows, or a Shadow Jumper, sitting in a place out of reach of mobs/bosses to kill them. All of this is forbidden and punishable if caught. That we may not always catch everyone every time, does not change that.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

IF (and as said this is still under discussion) this would be deemed an exploit then of course it is enforcable. While we may not catch everyone, it is just as enforcable as a non AA using UMD to use AA arrows, or a Shadow Jumper, sitting in a place out of reach of mobs/bosses to kill them. All of this is forbidden and punishable if caught. That we may not always catch everyone every time, does not change that.

Well that's why I made this topic really. I was told a long time ago that the maximized call lightnings were taboo. I was telling people this, but still saw it a shitload; pretty much every single leveling druid I ever saw (and I do a lot of leveling) did it and it's instantly spotable. When I heard it wasn't an exploit, I was like 'sure, thats fine,' but now I hear this whole other thing is up for discussion due to Arnkat's rebuild, which was approved (which would, I assume, be reversed if the thing he rebuilt to is turned into an actionable exploit).

And that's fine, but I think a public discussion needs to take place on this because there is a ton of misinformation out there. When someone official tells me something is an exploit it stops me in my tracks, you did today when you told me what I was doing was something you personally considered an exploit and were opening a discussion.

Just because it's so old, so common, the discussion needs an open door component.

It was never decided as a taboo.

It was discussed to change call lightning all together recently AFTER the spellschool updates.

Just like so far there never was a definite decision on using high level spells of a divine class when only having 1-5 "cheese" levels and technically should not be able to cast those spells, which is actually merely a mechanical coding difference between divine and arcane, leaving divine at an advantage.

I told you the team will re-discuss this.

You can publically discuss it too of course if you want.

Still, the using of high level spell slot gear to access spells you should not be able to access, has been a thorn in many peoples side for years, albeit never a definite decision has been made, which I also mentioned.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

It was never decided as a taboo.

It was discussed to change call lightning all together recently AFTER the spellschool updates.

Just like so far there never was a definite decision on using high level spells of a divine class when only having 1-5 "cheese" levels and technically should not be able to cast those spells, which is actually merely a mechanical coding difference between divine and arcane, leaving divine at an advantage.

I told you the team will re-discuss this.

You can publically discuss it too of course if you want.

Still, the using of high level spell slot gear to access spells you should not be able to access, has been a thorn in many peoples side for years, albeit never a definite decision has been made, which I also mentioned.

I'm not arguing any of this, just decrying the lack of information on this (people make character decisions based on these things being allowed but there was conflicting info everywhere about them being exploits or not) and hoping people are willing to share their thoughts on this.

My thoughts are simple: this sort of thing should be considered an exploit and we should correct the coding in whatever way we are able to do so.

This falls under the common sense category and using such mechanics is against common sense in every possible way. Seeing that the usage of common sense is a rule under the Basic Rules if you read the rules at the game entry, this should be considered as a rule violation and an exploit. Also, there is no RP that could possibly justify that.

As Amarice said, it will be discussed and a ruling will be given.

Lutra wrote:

This falls under the common sense category and using such mechanics is against common sense in every possible way. Seeing that the usage of common sense is a rule under the Basic Rules if you read the rules at the game entry, this should be considered as a rule violation and an exploit. Also, there is no RP that could possibly justify that.

As Amarice said, it will be discussed and a ruling will be given.

Wrong, because using the Nature's Mind has been a staple of Druid levelling since it existed and was not ruled as an exploit, ergo doing the same thing for cleric, paladin, and ranger spells is not an exploit either because it's also been done for years.

Either using higher level spell slots is an exploit or it's no. I don't particularly care which way you go with it, just be consistent.

Quote:

Likewise, using metamagics on form spells (such as call lightning) is something I see pretty much every single druid ever doing while leveling or while in events.

This one actually is an exploit and was removed from every other single method of doing so except for the druid forms, something I have reported several times in the last two years I've been back to the server, to overwhelming responses of "Yes, it is an exploit".

Same for Improved Expertise working on the Shapechange Slaad spit, somethnig that was disabled everywhere else but still works.

Expertise does not break for warlocks either. It was not deemed an exploit though, because warlocks have not much means of defense being constantly flat-footed.

Edit:
The elemental one will soon be changed anyways.

A Slaad spamming the spit while in Imp Expertise sitting at 70+ Ac and 5 regen and elemental dR with a touch attack magic damage spamming ability is busted, though. I'm not talking about Warlocks. They are their own thing, and I also, btw, strenuously disagree with the decision made there.

Which one? the warlock one?

Yes, I think Imp. Exp. shouldnt be allowed for it, but that's neither here not there and not the crux of the current discussion.

While I can agree in some settings, the elemental spell casting can be a bit cheap, it does not however help against higher level mobs with evasion. You are ticking 40 dmg if you are lucky. I will admit to being a cheap bastard and building specifically for that. I don't engage in pvp with the character as such. Shame on me, I guess. So. Free rebuild to a double dragon in the future...I suppose.

I didn't take improved expertise with my Warlock, however they without a doubt spend almost every second of combat flatfooted and and being surrounded is an immediate death sentence as you often get stuck in widget animation. Due to the nature of the widget mechanics they are far less mobile than mages and lack the means to hit and run without bugs hindering you.

I don't see how the call lightning is commen sense. For examplr, I did not know it was disabled for every other spell on every other form. I just assumed it was NWN mechanics. Period. I mean, using a bard level 8 spell slot item to extend mass haste apparently is not abusing the system.

Just covering everything under the 'commen sense' rule is a really bad idea. Why don't we put cybering in there? We are not an 18+ server, so it's common sense that cybering is allowed. Same with graphic torture. There is a big point, where I, as a non-developer, have no idea what is intended behaviour and what is a bug. In this case, I've seen so many people use maxismised Elemental call lightning, I assumed a DM would have seen at least some of that, amd told people no. In which case word would have gotten around. It doesn't help that the only information you get is from someone who is not a DM (anymore), which 1. makes you question whether he is in the loop at all, or just stating his opinion, and 2. makes you unsure what the DMs think about this.

I can go around stating that cornersneaking is an exploit. Does that make it one?

The call lighting needs no longer be discussed (well you can, if you really want it is just moot) because the spell will be removed from the Air Elemenal and replaced by another spell. An arcane one, so the maximizing won't be possible for a druid/shifter anymore anyways.

That doesn't fix the problem. Acid fog on Water Elemental. Stonehold. Fireball. Wall of Fire. Fix the problem, don't throw bandaids on it.

Fireball can't be maximized on a druid. Wall of Fire does not exist, it is combust which can neither. Thoughw e are looking for a somewhat more useful spell there. Stonehold can't be maximized either, as it is not a damage spell.

Alas I do not mind simply making maximizing not possible. I have no idea how easy that is to do and seeing that noone ever did anything or say anything the amanyfold times it was brought up with the dev team, I mostly assumed noone currently on the team knows and hence was opting for a quick, easy fix with about the same result, seeing most can't even be maximized.

This kind of makes being a shapeshifter druid kind of pointless in the mechanical aspect. In the elemental shapes, your A.C. and DR are decent enough that you don't get stomped immediately, however your AB and damage output are insignificant. This only further makes the dragon shape, the only shape worth using. The kitty us interesting with Hips, however you again fall into AB/AC/DMG issues. It's easy to point out when something looks like it's cheap or overpowered, but several builds hit over 50 AB with 65AC and a huge critical threat range. Further gearing makes them get saves with baselines above 35. No matter of maximizing any spells will make an elemental druid a match for these characters. Giving them cheap arcane spells doesn't help. Acid fog hurts the water elemental and his summons more than it does the enemy. It doesn't even work on most bosses. Neither does stonehold. So all we are really doing is taking away the one thing that worked and made them competitive with the rest of the server. Unless you have Dragonshape. Which requires min-maxing or selecting a sub race to even be possible.

I would offer constructive feedback if I could, but I already know there isn't a fix to balance this. No matter what you do it's either going to be useless or overpowered.

Scintillating sphere would be useless, again hurting your summons more than the enemies. Chain lightning was already a no go. IGMs? Lol I wish.

I think the best route would be to make the elemental shapes competent melee builds. I know that was the intention with the wild shapes, but they are pretty much useless. Air=monk, Fire= rogue, Water= fighter, Earth= Barbarian.

Just for clarification, stonehold can be maximized.

Don't get me wrong though. I agree that in the density of low level epic areas it's very cheap. Once you hit the Sahaguin, Manner Mourns, Labyrinth, Abyss...it becomes a little added splash damage and nothing more.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Stonehold can't be maximized either, as it is not a damage spell.

http://i.imgur.com/yceVZ88.jpg

You can do it. Always have been able to.

Well I personally do still not consider it OP. The save is low, it works well in a few PVE areas like giants, but not at all in the epic areas like abyss beholders and only every once in a blue moon at Duergar or Sahuagin.

Acid Fog, as mentioned before, is shitty to use for druids anyways, as it harms companions and summons.

Alas I am still not against changing it to just no longer being able to maximise it. But so far noone of the devs seemed to either know how or have the time to fix it. Not sure which was the case, whilst when I mentioned the other solution, I got a reply in seconds that this is an easy fix and can be done right away.

This still does not change my opinion on the use of spells due to spellslots you should not be able to cast level wise.

Albeit found an easy fix for the elemental swarm already,

*peers over from the peanut gallery*

Looks to me like yanking Call Lightning fixes the Actual Problem. Stonehold is grand against scrub mobs, but putting it in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark, as Call Lightning is just Tormiepoo being a grump.

If one should be so foolish as to ask me, that is.

Call lightning is cool, fun, looks great, and is thematic fro druids to use. It also only does damage - if, as I suspect it is, it's being changed to Lightning Bolt, then the air elemental is being given an infinite 3 round Stun spell spam with epic evocation.

No, we wanted to change it to ball lightning.

That's even more damage than Call Lightning, though. 21d6 every use on an epic Evoker, and most will be. It's also a higher level spell, so the DC will be 2 higher.

yeah but druids are on the weaker builds anyways unless they go dragon shape, and seeing you can neither ever max or empower it we (so far) considered it fair seeing it is also half on reflex etc and can't be changed by the BOT either. It was either that or chain lightning. Which is pretty much the same. I just felt ball looks better. >.>

Call Lightning strikes every creature separately for their max damage while ball lightning spreads out that higher damage among the targets, so in effect it will be far less damage with the usual spawn groups.

While it may be considered an exploit, it was one that took seven feats to get to. Considering a splash of monk and dragonshape makes you even more powerful, it doesn't really feel like that much if an exploit.

So as a side note while I think it's legit to use spell slot gear if you are rp-ing the class, mechanically I really don't care either way balance wise if it's removed or not. I just wish this talk of exploiting could have happened before, like at any point before my rebuild into it was approved and done so I wouldn't need to just build right back to Ranger 1.

If the decision falls onto the case that it is deemed an exploit, I will personally rebuild you and refund the 2 DC.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

If the decision falls onto the case that it is deemed an exploit, I will personally rebuild you and refund the 2 DC.

This was never in doubt. I was just expressing annoyance at the timing.

Is the call lightning on Druids that bad maximized? I mean the only way to make druid remotely equal to most builds is dragonshape and that takes ALL epic feats or all but one. Why is having call lightning so op? Just asking out of curiousity. I thought it was allowed because unlike Shifter druids don't have much going for them unless Dragon and apparently mobs have plus 15 ac vs dragons.

TheWok wrote:

Is the call lightning on Druids that bad maximized? I mean the only way to make druid remotely equal to most builds is dragonshape and that takes ALL epic feats or all but one. Why is having call lightning so op? Just asking out of curiousity. I thought it was allowed because unlike Shifter druids don't have much going for them unless Dragon and apparently mobs have plus 15 ac vs dragons.

Its at least twenty.

Even more reason to leave call lightning. I guess it is a moot point per Amarice's post but perhaps it could be reconsidered like the expertise for Warlocks?

After all the epic animal forms aren't really great, and neither are the elementals since nothing merges.

Edit: I by no means want to offend any developers who spent time on the new epic forms. You guys donated your time and do the best you can and it is appreciated. By not really that great I just meant compared to other builds. I understand balancing is an extremely difficult task. Please do not take this as saying your efforts aren't appreciated. Just think druids need a little more love unless they are more supposed to be casters. This animal companions save the bear are pretty sweet.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Call Lightning strikes every creature separately for their max damage while ball lightning spreads out that higher damage among the targets, so in effect it will be far less damage with the usual spawn groups.

Incorrect, Ball Lightning functions as Firebrand now and does not spread that damage.

thunderbrush wrote:

While it may be considered an exploit, it was one that took seven feats to get to. Considering a splash of monk and dragonshape makes you even more powerful, it doesn't really feel like that much if an exploit.

Maximized infinite call lightning takes Max spell and 3 spell focus feats - all things a caster druid would take anyways with no outside, odd investment. The spell then deals 96 (or 128 in wilderness areas) damage to all creatures, more if they're vulnerable, which can be done via the BoT (which makes little sense for an Air Elemental to be doing, but it works.). Hasted, this happens twice a round.

Infinite Metamagic is very much an exploit.

TormakSaber wrote:

thunderbrush wrote:

While it may be considered an exploit, it was one that took seven feats to get to. Considering a splash of monk and dragonshape makes you even more powerful, it doesn't really feel like that much if an exploit.

Maximized infinite call lightning takes Max spell and 3 spell focus feats - all things a caster druid would take anyways with no outside, odd investment. The spell then deals 96 (or 128 in wilderness areas) damage to all creatures, more if they're vulnerable, which can be done via the BoT (which makes little sense for an Air Elemental to be doing, but it works.). Hasted, this happens twice a round.

Infinite Metamagic is very much an exploit.

I also took ESF Conj. For max stoneholds and cure moderates, as well as a better summons. While I agree that this seems cheap, this is also very subjective. It makes you good at killing trash. This isn't some godkiller we are talking about, it's just a play on mechanics, the same way people cheese every other class on this module. I'm not angry or anything like that, but I could think of a million changes on this server to improve the relevance and survivability of almost every class and PRC. Changing this makes Dragon Druid the only viable option for soloing things a F/WM/R can do with a a stack of potions and a few Wolfsheads. Druids lack the martial ability of clerics or even spellswords. They lack the Spell Casting Prowess of Mages and Clerics as well. Druids can however support summons...that get ghosted in epic dungeons rather quickly. I'm all for making changes, but ensure that the changes made allow druid to stand on its own without being confined to the dragon meta.

Infinite maximized metamagics isn't subjective. It's objectively against the design and intent of the form, the spell, the metamagic, and the way abilities work.

TormakSaber wrote:

Infinite maximized metamagics isn't subjective. It's objectively against the design and intent of the form, the spell, the metamagic, and the way abilities work.

This is a statement from a dev so should be taken as the stance the team takes on this issue. That means if we as players feel this changes druid balance we need to suggest alternatives to it. Basically: The team considers infinite metamagics against design. If changing call lightning to fit the design the dev team has for the game negatively impacts druid performance what alternative ways can we come up with to restore the balance?

My solution would be perhaps allow certain slots to merge with non-dragon forms? Is this a route that could be considered? Since Dragon merges certain slots would it break things if the Druid non-dragon shapes did as well?

TheWok wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Infinite maximized metamagics isn't subjective. It's objectively against the design and intent of the form, the spell, the metamagic, and the way abilities work.

This is a statement from a dev so should be taken as the stance the team takes on this issue. That means if we as players feel this changes druid balance we need to suggest alternatives to it. Basically: The team considers infinite metamagics against design. If changing call lightning to fit the design the dev team has for the game negatively impacts druid performance what alternative ways can we come up with to restore the balance?

My solution would be perhaps allow certain slots to merge with non-dragon forms? Is this a route that could be considered? Since Dragon merges certain slots would it break things if the Druid non-dragon shapes did as well?

i would like it if torso/helm/shield/weapon merged with all forms like it does with the dragon shape. don't think it's in the cards though.

Quote:

This is a statement from a dev so should be taken as the stance the team takes on this issue

no, no, the dev team isn't DMs and doesn't wield authority like them, please don't take my statement that way. The only people who can make definitive rulinfs like this are DMs, (and sheeler and maverick - who are effectively DMS with a dev focus).

I still think it's an objective fact that it goes against the design intent of the game and abilities tho - and i can say this as someone who designed the shifters that originally required the infinite metamagic bug to be squashed.

Well, I was curious about another 'exploit', or rather, I was wondering whether it is one. (Thinling about it, probably, but not sure) UMD has a weirb behaviour, where you can equip an item, even if you only meet the requirements using UMD gear, and can then unequip the items giving you more UMD. Allowed? (I mean, honestly, some restrictions are complete garbage, like the brog orc gauntlets that make no sense, but that isn't up to me to decide, so it hops into the same problem)

Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies as I was not intending to misconstrue your stance. I'm just trying to help steer the conversation towards an actual end goal instead of it endlessly circling the same points. If the team decides that Call Lightning is fine, I think it would fall under the same classification as Warlock's using Improved Expertise as Druids without Dragonshape are kind of lacking.

If it is ruled a hard no as Amarice implied then of course as players we should respect that and offer alternative solutions such as allowing certain gear slots to merge with Druid wildshapes/elemental shapes since some already merge with Dragon. These two ideas are also not exhaustive, I'm sure those who have been balancing the game for a long time could offer alternatives but I was curious as to whether either of these two solutions would be acceptable?

Or alternatively, does the team consider non-dragonshape druids fine as is? Personally and from others who have played druid I get the feeling the player consensus is Druids could use some love to make them viable without having to give up every one of your Epic feats (except maybe one) to get Dragonshape. Then again, random mobs have +20 AC vs Dragons too so... I guess alternatives to that could be suggested as well.

TheWok wrote:

Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies as I was not intending to misconstrue your stance. I'm just trying to help steer the conversation towards an actual end goal instead of it endlessly circling the same points. If the team decides that Call Lightning is fine, I think it would fall under the same classification as Warlock's using Improved Expertise as Druids without Dragonshape are kind of lacking.

If it is ruled a hard no as Amarice implied then of course as players we should respect that and offer alternative solutions such as allowing certain gear slots to merge with Druid wildshapes/elemental shapes since some already merge with Dragon. These two ideas are also not exhaustive, I'm sure those who have been balancing the game for a long time could offer alternatives but I was curious as to whether either of these two solutions would be acceptable?

I never implied that. I personally do not feel it is OP as druids lack on so many other ends, however, others felt it were so I was offering counter suggestions that do not make things go from great to absolutely useless (hence the ball lightning suggestion).

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I never implied that. I personally do not feel it is OP as druids lack on so many other ends, however, others felt it were so I was offering counter suggestions that do not make things go from great to absolutely useless (hence the ball lightning suggestion).

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

The call lighting needs no longer be discussed (well you can, if you really want it is just moot) because the spell will be removed from the Air Elemenal and replaced by another spell. An arcane one, so the maximizing won't be possible for a druid/shifter anymore anyways.

I guess I misunderstood this part where you said call lightning needs no longer be discussed because the spell will be removed from the Air Elemental. This to me implied the team as a whole had already decided upon this course of action because it was deemed an exploit or too OP or something. Forgive my misunderstanding once again, just trying to steer the conversation towards an acceptable solution.

Spell slot "Exploits" open discussion.

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