AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

DM at the time when this was turned down iirc

Quote:

Fear Immunity specifically, I know that's one of the properties we were discussing phasing out along with Freedom when we were redoing crowd control spells and the like. So I'm not sure, when it comes to adding it to DC items. We dissuaded Liz' character from adding it to her helm for the same reason.

I don't think it's allowed.

It's also a dumb property and just adds a DC tax to characters as it's something you can only get on request gear.

Fear is one of the more broken mechanics in the game, and a boring one. Senseles running into corners and 0 control. There is more powerful immunities right? I mostly ever seen people with poor willsaves be effected by fear and those are probably bad builds (like my old Budly) or focused entirely on fortitude or reflex with poor gear. I remove it if it causes to much of a ruckus from the application and ask for more will save instead.

Budly wrote:

Fear is one of the more broken mechanics in the game, and a boring one. Senseles running into corners and 0 control. There is more powerful immunities right? I mostly ever seen people with poor willsaves be effected by fear and those are probably bad builds (like my old Budly) or focused entirely on fortitude or reflex with poor gear. I remove it if it causes to much of a ruckus from the application and ask for more will save instead.

Budly, please stick to the request and let the DM's decide, don't let players opinions make you remove it.

I don't see why fear immunity is op. I mean, paladins get it in their kit at their 2nd level. The builds that rely on fear also often have other ways to crowd control people, like some of the bigby spells that you can't even build against.

I keep it

Thanks.

I'm only curious about one thing now: Which builds rely on fear? I mean, I legit can only think of a few builds that even HAVE fear: Bards, I think all Casters (except Druid), and Barbarians. (Assassins don't have any fear, and by the way I see the saves, they shouldn't be affected by Fear Immunity at all) Bards already have poor save DCs, most other casters won't likely focus on it (the only one I can think of is high level PM), and Barbs... Well, they don't care too much about fear anymore, to be honest.

Would it be better if items you could get IG had Fear Immunity on it? Probably. But is Fear Immunity really that strong? Nope.

Also, Shadowfiend, TerriRage is not instawin anymore. It's close to useless (or will be changed soon™?), which is why I wouldn't say barbs care about Fear Immunity as much as they used to. And Fear Immunity is not as useful anymore. It removes a few options from builds, but most items do that. It's like certain builds are screwed if you have a few casts of purge invis, for example. Or Mindblank and Bubblies.

Fear is used by a lot of casters, of course. I don't think they RELY on it, but it is a powerful tool in their toolbox. That's the point, they have other methods if fear doesn't work, that's why fear immunity is not op.

Also... you say Terrifying Rage is.... "close to useless now", and.. I find that amusing as I've heard a few others say it too. I just checked, and making a typical 24/4/2 barb who would have terrarage and EWS and UMD with a moderate CON of only 20 and taking 2 feats to enhance intimidate gets a DC of 32. Now... the characters who are most affected by terrarage are obviously not casters, but warriors, generally, who have WILL saves far below 32. Generally speaking of course, since they build up FORT, STR, CON, etc. The same barbarian that can scare with a DC 32 aura... yes, it's an AOE effect aura so lots of people can be affected, that same barb may have a 15 WILL save (assuming the player gave him/her a 10 WIS and they have say a fort cloak +4). To say Terrarage is useless is a bit overdramatic.

I'd say they made it fit in line with other similar abilities DCs, like Shadow Daze, Assassin skills, most spells by typical casters, etc.

Now, that said, if they had done more like 29/1 barb with more CON focus... well, they can hit 39 or so with a 10 con mod. Not many characters have 39 Will or higher. Yes, of course now everyone and their brother will talk about builds that do... not the point. A large percentage of the server would be vulnerable to a DC 39 will save. It's not OP, they took several feats to get there, they devoted their build to it, and should reap the reward of that.

In the past... 15 barb levels, 33 points in intimidate, and a couple pieces of gear and you had 40+ DC. See the difference? It's not useless, it just requires some dedication to the class as it should. It's a top tier ability when used properly.

That all said... I'm in favor of Fear Immune items, and apparently so are the DM's.

I'm still a bit sceptical, because you usually won't want to spend that much for con, intimidate feats and stuff, but I also have to concede that I have never understood barbs completely, and how one would build them to complete perfection. Like, on a WM, you wouldn't go to 20 con even, usually at max going for 14, in many cases. So I don't know.

CON fuels barbarian rage, so it makes sense.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Hold on I did not see that that fear immunity there.

That is a no on a generic item (aka one that has no large scale, deep RP and strong reasoning, racial or creation wise) as by previous staff decision. It is only approved in rare cases and with some very fitting and reasonable explanation. It won't be approved without that. Sorry. You can have saves vs. fear instead.

And that's all she wrote.

Frankly I don't know how one could RP being immune to fear outside of becoming a construct or something.

There are some. Most of the team wanted to remove it completely and it is not easy or likely to be approved. It is one of the things I however felt should at least have the option to be OK if it has the rare case if it being fitting or hard earned, opposed to outright denial no matter what. So you can blame me for that "exception". However, it would also count fairly high in regards of item power (far more so that poison or disease).

viewtopic.php?p=1380972#p1380972

The text should be changed then so there isn't any confusion in the future. Like "Possible, but the development of said item property needs to be roleplayed very well"

Magic is convoluted.

I think it's good to be gone.

But I also think freedom should just be replaced with freedom seven 3/day. Like we just log in and it's different.

Sometimes you have to make like a band-aid, rip it right off.

We have a lot to take into consideration to make decisions like that. Also mages already just got giant boosts lately. We cannot do too many changes at once without waiting first if something does not get too much. Mages already are now among the most powerful classes next to cleric, which is however also a class which would greatly benefit from that. So it would make the two strongest classes stronger.

Anyways, it is looked into. I heave to head out now for family dinner. Laters.

Why is fear immunity so powerful, considering all the other options that casters and other cc reliant characters have to Crowd Control people?

Because it counters specific things and was only available on a DC item, meaning if you wanted the property you were forced to get DC's.

Which is a real nice property for all those earth plane-touched weapon-masters out there.

Commie wrote:

Because it counters specific things and was only available on a DC item, meaning if you wanted the property you were forced to get DC's.

Which is a real nice property for all those earth plane-touched weapon-masters out there.

Plenty of things counter other things. A lot of items are useless in NWN on higher lvls, a DC 13-14 on attack?. Fear? I never seen anyone put it into use as a baseline attack. But I seen dragons and other things spook away plenty characters, rendering fighthorribly boring for the feared part and in duels and tourneys it is boring to watch. I simply put do not agree with the decision. Fear much like Stealth are to broken aspects of an old game, in my opinion. But now we are heading down a very annoying road. And my mood Is already not the best with my bowel syndrome and a very annoying father singing horrible songs in a hotel room in Dublin we have to share!

Commie wrote:

Because it counters specific things and was only available on a DC item, meaning if you wanted the property you were forced to get DC's.

Which is a real nice property for all those earth plane-touched weapon-masters out there.

Paladins get fear immunity at level 2.

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

Commie wrote:

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

Then I gues we got F'ing powerbuild DC tax to since I had to pay F'ing DCs to rebuild Budly to even have a remote chance of surviving anything on the server.

Paladins are also required to have incredibly restrictive RP compared to literally every other class, and must be lore-knowledgable about the deity they serve, and have strict alignment restrictions that make them unable to take other classes.

Fear immunity makes you immune to:

- Dragon's aura (popular with some people in pvp)
- Fear spell (Haven't seen this directly used in a while)
- Terrifying Rage (Haven't seen this used effectively in a while, though my dwarf Barb/MS/KC, because of his build, actually has the exact same DC he did before the nerf, so he does use it)
- Some rare NPC fear auras (I think that some of the dudes in the Labyrinth have it?)

As I type this out I'm actually no longer sure why it's a big deal. There aren't a lot of used cases of fear on the server unless I'm forgetting one or two.

Commie wrote:

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

Well, there already is a DC tax, even without Fear Immunity. DC gear ALWAYS goes above what you can mythal. Which means, on average, a character without DCs will lose more often than a character with DCs. Hell, rigns. The common rings are at least four powers, when rings usually have three slots. That's a lot easier to gear. In total, you can pretty commonly get around 10 mythal slots out of DC gear, compared to stuff crafted in game. So, there already is a DC tax. If I want to have my assassin to be +10 dex, +10 int, +5 AC on everything, 38 fort, some hp, and as high sneaking as possible, it only is possible with a lot of DC request gear. If I could gear my characters completely with DC gear, they'd be a lot stronger than they currently are. And stronger than they'd be if I had unlimited flawless mythals.

And even then, Fear Immunity is locked behind really good RP, apparently.

Commie wrote:

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

The point is that it's given at the 2nd level of a class, albeit being a restricted one it's just 2 levels. If fear immunity had been such a powerful thing, don't you think someone had made a cheesy build by now that took advantage of the fact you need only 2 levels in the class? if it had been worth it, someone would already have done it.

Beyond that, falling as a paladin doesn't mean losing the fear immunity.

I think ppl dip pally 8 not 2.

Commie wrote:

I think ppl dip pally 8 not 2.

Back in my days, the last time I was active here we had some pally 2/Sorc 28 if I am not wrong. OR whenever the charisma to saves kicks in.

Yeah that was removed for that reason. Now it's capped at pally/bg level.

Budly wrote:

Commie wrote:

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

Then I gues we got F'ing powerbuild DC tax to since I had to pay F'ing DCs to rebuild Budly to even have a remote chance of surviving anything on the server.

I just saw this.

If you build right in the first place, which a huge portion of this server is more then willing to help you do, you would never need to DC rebuild.

So you're just wrong.

Commie wrote:

Budly wrote:

Commie wrote:

Yeah, because paladins are immune to fear. I mean what does mentioning that do at all? Druids are a wisdom class and have favored will. It doesn't matter. Fear immunity on an item is a DC tax.

Then I gues we got F'ing powerbuild DC tax to since I had to pay F'ing DCs to rebuild Budly to even have a remote chance of surviving anything on the server.

I just saw this.

If you build right in the first place, which a huge portion of this server is more then willing to help you do, you would never need to DC rebuild.

So you're just wrong.

If builds are the main focus on an RP server, then something gone very very very very very wrong. So I do say, there is an build DC tax if you happen to return after 10 years. It is nice and dandy to get all this build help but the character barely feels like my creation.

You could have self rebuilt for free. If you followed the builds as given, it would have been cake.

Commie wrote:

You could have self rebuilt for free. If you followed the builds as given, it would have been cake.

If I had the time and found it fun to do the same dungeons over and over and over and over and over again. Sure. How do you explain Budly Bundly being lvl 2 again? Marriage? Vampiric level drain? Demonic entity? I almost only level with DC's now since doing dungeons tend to get dull. There is nothing persistent with dungeons, there is no nice RP out of it, atleast almost never. Just a senseless rush for xp, some gold and loot. No progress in character development most of the time, especiall not after beating up the same boss for th 200th with no proper IC explanation how the same "King of the" species at the moment you beat up is back again or why Drogg Bogg the 281 of his name has not moved his people out yet and where that cloning vats they use is hidden.

You can still easily bang out a level 1-30 grind in under a week and justify it ic as training. It's not that hard with a good build that fit your character, which many many many people were willing to give.

As to why you are "weaker" once your new power build hit level 10ish you'd have been stronger.

I put this in the "looking for rp" topic or whatever but I'll post it again here.

Commie wrote:

Frankly, if you want to RP without game mechanics, go to second life or something that has no "game."

NWN is a D&D game first, which is a dice-rolling game with wargaming and combat as its heart and lifeblood, named because its core was delving into dungeons to fight dragons.

Ok. Tell me how to get level 30 in a week. And how many hours a day you are leveling.

There is a difference between RP without mechanics, and RP without grind.

I did use Kobra build, Commie.

I rather grind 110 lvls in a MMO than do it here, Im not here for the levelling even if Lvling is more fun here than in most MMOs.

Also...DnD...to me is a flawed system. DnD has not aged well in an age of better games, more advanced systems and deeper games than a system that gets dumber with each generation.

EDIT: Sorry if I sound a bit angry. No hard feelings Commie or other, I still love DnD in it's own way too!

robbi320 wrote:

Ok. Tell me how to get level 30 in a week. And how many hours a day you are leveling.

There is a difference between RP without mechanics, and RP without grind.

Only farm mobs giving 50+ xp. Know where to farm on your class. We were taking about paladins earlier, on a pally do you know how early you can do the crypt of burning dead?

Or how soon you can solo yetis? Or fire giants?

You can 8-30 and just go spiders minos stingers giants yetis. It's easy and almost any class can do it.

Also, the fear spells were reduced in duration already reduced, the spell is nerfed big time in preparation for not needing this item attribute.

Some enemy scripts still do the long one. Ghosts and stuff still do minutes/level last time I checked.

Not sure on the nerf, but, in PVP, it still lasts actual minutes. Going from 20 mins to 2 really doesn't make it survivable.

Honestly, if you're going into battle and don't use mindblank or protection from evil/good, and have shit will saves, and proceed to get mindfucked, it's kind of your fault IMO.

You -should- lose that fight.

I speak as someone who has been mindfucked because of forgetting that many times.

That Guy wrote:

Not sure on the nerf, but, in PVP, it still lasts actual minutes. Going from 20 mins to 2 really doesn't make it survivable.

It do seem awfully dooming in those arena fight in Cordor when 1 person get feared by a dragon. Done and over with.

Sure, but not the point. I just saw fear was reduced to 4 rounds? I remember it lasting far longer than 24 seconds last time, just two weeks ago when Roach was hit unprepared.

That Guy wrote:

Sure, but not the point. I just saw fear was reduced to 4 rounds? I remember it lasting far longer than 24 seconds last time, just two weeks ago when Roach was hit unprepared.

I just took a recent example. Fear is one of the worst mechanics in the game. Last to long, is to randomize when it kicks in and can just restack over and over with fear auras if I am not remembering poorly now!

That Guy wrote:

Sure, but not the point. I just saw fear was reduced to 4 rounds? I remember it lasting far longer than 24 seconds last time, just two weeks ago when Roach was hit unprepared.

Mobs have longer fears. Epic focus also increases the duration.

There may also be custom spells that use an unnerfed duration.

Commie, was cast by a pc.

That Guy wrote:

Sure, but not the point. I just saw fear was reduced to 4 rounds? I remember it lasting far longer than 24 seconds last time, just two weeks ago when Roach was hit unprepared.

possible it was Extended Fear

I personally always prepare my fears extended. I don't like giving chances to beat me.

I'll admit I didn't read all of these fear posts but.... Especially in PVE, why not just use a lesser mind blank? Fear immunity is hardly needed as a persistent property with those readily available.

How easy is it for you to kill, or not to kill people? I mean, in the server lore, apparently, anything can simply knock someone out, no matter what it is. I'm curious how far this goes. I mean, in PnP, if I am not mistaken, there is spefific non-lethal damage. But on here, we seem to be at the point where using any weapon or any spell can K.O. you. Is this lore-appropriate? And who decides whether a character is dead? I mean, the forum rules state that it is the victor. Except that only the player can decide what happens to their character on a longer scale... And, well, let's be honest, the amount of hits a character takes, he's suffering major damage to like all internal organs, more than just 'oh, get back up'.

So, are there already any rules on this, or how is that worked out?

The killer decides if it's a KO or not. They also decide what happens to the body.

It's in the pvp rules.

However you can take whatever they said they did to your body, and RP it out however you feel like.

Like, oh, they bludgeoned me over the head. I'm knocked out, according to the victor.

However you can decide later that, oh snap, your character now has short term memory loss.

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