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Irish Fluff
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 Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland, UK
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Laban Oni wrote: There is quite a difference between a thought bubble that ic your character would never hear, and a character actually saying something. The difference... MY GOODNESS! Your character knows that ic. And they can act and react to it within the bounds of an in character environment... without having to metagame. That is the big difference between the two. Thought bubbles are used to insult... so the other character has no means to react. And, it is left as an insult straight to the player. Thier character is left in character... impotent to do anything about it, since they wouldn't know. Now, someone calls your character a name... in words. You can... hmm, insult them back? Kill them? Hire someone to kill them? Sorry if I was a bit curt or abbrasive in my reply, but I haven't had my coffee... and I'm tired. Yes so you have pointed out the difference one you can react to the other you cant but you have missed my point entirely. My point is that is if someone insults you through a thought bubble and you get upset, annouyed or whatever because you cant respond ICly, then theres something seriously wrong. Quote: I'm not sure you understood Straz's point, as I believe (though I could have misunderstood) he was mainly talking about when people use thought bubbles to insult people either in place of OOC insults, or to essentially stick your tongue out at them OOCly. I think it's totally reasonable that people would get annoyed in this case.
I also know Straz's point, if someone is harressing you through thought bubbles in an OOC way then they are a coward who cant say it straight to your face that they dont like you. Dont lower yourself to there level, ignore them, because what they want is to get on your goat. If it gets to you then it stops you from having fun and then you'll leave for another server which is most likely what they want.
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Darli
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: US
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Well, no one is saying it is against the rules, just that it would be nice if people would have courtesy to other players and keep those types of thought bubbles to themselves.
_________________ 
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Thank you, Straz, for bringing this up in the first place. At this point, there's not a lot I can add to this thread, since the subject has been hammered in and out of shape over four pages, but I'll simply add my support for the push to tone down the thought bubbles.
They are a pet peeve of mine. They do not, as Dave suggests, make me angry in an OOC sense, or offended, even if they happen to be directed at my PC. They rarely are. I see them often used between two different PCs, and when I see it, I start rolling my eyes. Because in my experience, I have rarely seen it used in any other way than what someone said earlier this thread: an infalliable shield behind which the player can lob jibes. Like that damn Frenchman in the fortress in the Monty Python and the Holy Grail movie.
I should say, thought bubbles do not upset me OOC because I'm insulted by them. They upset me because I tend to have a kneejerk reaction, upon seeing them used in an insulting way (and only in an insulting way), to think of the player as acting more than a little infantile. Granted, I immediately temper that judgment with a shrug of my shoulders (after all, its just a game), and it never affects my interactions or feelings with that player thereafter. But c'mon...even if you may agree that thought bubbles do sometimes serve an ok role in roleplaying, you cannot ignore the fact that those "insulting thought bubbles" are far too easily construed as unnecessary little sucker punches to make your PC seem better, to get the "last" or "best" word in what amounts to a contest to see whose typing fingers are the biggest.
Moderation, please. And be selective if you use them. I think I've only used thought bubbles twice in six months myself, once as a satirical gesture I used to openly mock this sporadic trend of insulting thought bubbles, and another time in a dramatic DM-run roleplay that culminated with a grand peak at which my PC's final thought, intentionally unexpressed and not insulting or even about another PC, popped a beautiful little thematic cork in that bottle of roleplay.
Other than that, I keep the mystique.
But again, thanks for bringing this up, Straz, as in my opinion the playerbase could stand to exert a little control over what could otherwise become an unnecessary and hurtful trend. No talk of "banning" or however that cropped up even necessary. This is something the playerbase should be able to manage on its own.
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Ravena
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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I'll have to agree with disco.
Their ways of avoiding rp or forcing your opinions on the reader. Example o.O(That yossarin sure is a moron and gay) if yossarin just insulted your shoes.
Doing this in front of yossarin is insulting him, but your hiding in thought bubbles so you can't have any repreive because 'your thinking' it.
To be honest, most thought bubbles I belive are harrassment.
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Annashi
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Location: Under your bed, boo!
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<3 my thought bubbles, and im gonna use em till the day i die! and if someone is being an idiot im gonna .oO(what an idiot.) if someone is being an idiot oocly im gonna /t "someone" what an idiot! insults in thought bubbles are only bad when ooc. for instance lots of male drow insult me in thought bubbles, i dont care, male drow often think bad things about females. I suppose I should go cry now.
_________________ 
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Arissa_Nightblade
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: SEGA!
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using common sense and given the context of the situation, one can usually discern what's considered insulting ICly and OOCly. Of course, there are always exceptions...
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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. o O (That (censored) Ravena, using me as an example and insinuating that I'm a gay moron. And ugh, how can she wear boots...with heels?! Heellooooooo, last century.)
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Sharuma
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 19:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 May 2006
Location: Canada
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I think there is a difference between 1 lone thought bubble insult and a stream of thought bubbles harrassing another player to make them look bad (OOCly) on purpose and provide a cheap OOC laugh to the players involved at the expense of that other player.
Uncool and very much OOC driven.
_________________
Sharuma:
Azaera Noqu'ana - yathtallar
Xüllae Ouss'ana - bard
Mhekaru - naive half-drow sorceress
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smellysocks
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 20:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
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o0(I wish this thread would end!)
o0(I can't believe how childish some players can be!)
o0(I certainly hope they don't expect me to agree with them!)
o0(Does this armor make my ass look fat?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now anyone who argues that thought bubbles are bad RP, but OK to provide comic relief is a hypocrit, because you can't have it both ways. You also cannot complain that thought bubbles are OOC and should not be allowed and in the same breath argue that publishing your private diary in the PC Story section is ok because no one is forced to read it.
Some of the things we are forced to endure in our daily gameplay are distasteful, rediculous, absurd and you will have to learn to deal with it. You cannot go crying to a DM every ten minutes because Elf McJones said my character is ugly.
I know what a certain drow complained to Straz about, and I think it is foolish. Rediculously so, infact. The situation that he was participating as a guard in, involved the female circumcision of a small child slave as a form of torture. The prisoner called him ICly a stupid male, and as a female that was nearby observing their torture session I thought
o0(he sure has that jaluk pegged)
Now, this player decided that this was an OOC insult and went on a rant about thought bubbles and what not. Then began to swear and said he was leaving ...
to which I typed o0(that jaluk is an ass).
Damn right I meant that OOC, because he WAS behaving like an ass. I will not name him, as I am sure that would be too much for him to handle, but needless to say, I am NOT suprised to see this thread today.
So to summarize, he was OK with the torture of a child by way of 'female circumcision' but to have someone call him stupid during interogation and then have another 'think' that they agree with the stupid remark is too much?
Come on, time to grow up a bit.
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Darli
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 20:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: US
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Personally, I agree with Sharuma. A few insults don't bug me; only when it gets excessive do I start to get a little annoyed (and not enough to do anything about it, being lazy  ). Though even one insult made for OOC purposes is completely uncalled for and rude as well; I'm just talking about IC insults made for IC purposes that get excessive to the point where they become OOC driven, as Sharuma said.
However, regardless of whether or not the situation you were involved in was enough for Straz to mention this, Smelly, I gathered from his post that he did it because he's seen it happen multiple times where it was much worse.
Not to mention, no offense, but replying with an OOC insult in a thought bubble doesn't help the situation and only serves to validate the person's complaint. Purposefully provoking him to get even more upset with you means you're egging him on to do what you were mad at him for doing in the first place. Probably causes more of headache for the DMs as well. _________________
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Stark_Raven_Mad
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Posted: Wed, Aug 30 2006, 21:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 May 2005
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Okay, guys...since people seem to need to know what spurred all this in the first place I'll go ahead and let everyone know.
I watched an RP situation go on during which the majority of the "role-play" from a certain character was done with thought bubbles. The thought bubbles were deliberate jabs against someone else's character. They were an almost unending stream of derogatory thoughts to which the other player, who was doing ACTUAL RP, could not respond. A new player to Amia was watching this go on and laughing OOC about what was being said in the thought bubbles. In this instance the thought bubbles were being used to make someone else's character look ridiculous both IC and OOC.
Now, what does this lead to? An elitest attitude among people on the server. It's used as a way of OOC controlling what other people think about someone's character. In no way is it ever good RP and it will never be. Thought bubbles are often used as a way to harass and insult people OOC with a very thin covering of an IC pretense.
There are many people on Amia who purposely go around trying to OOC ruin people's reputations with supposedly IC slandering.
For all of you that are of the "Cry me a river" persuasion. You seem to be missing out on one of Amia's main rules. No OOC harrassment. Why is this rule in place? To make Amia a fun place to play for everyone. The fact that you all even HAVE the attitude of "Why are the thought bubbles even bothering anyone?" clearly shows you don't truly care about about the people you RP with. You don't see them as people but instead as victims for your animosity or toys for your amusement.
Frankly, I don't give a damn what people say IC or OOC about me, TO ME! It doesn't hurt my "feelings" and no, I certainly will not "cry" over it.
However, when people feel the need to air their 'thoughts' publicly to other people about my characters when I have no way to respond to it properly then I'll show just how ridiculous thought bubbles are or remove myself from the situation. But, I'm not going to allow such behavior to keep happening since likely someone who is insulting me OOC is also doing it to other people. I'm going to speak up about it.
No, still not crying over here, simply refusing to be a part of extremely poor RP. Thought bubbles do not help to move storylines along, do not help generate more RP by giving other characters something to respond to and play off of, or add to what used to be the friendly atmosphere of Amia. Instead there's now a purile atmosphere of "Who can say the best put downs the fastest in the cleverest thought bubbles so we can't be blamed for OOC harassment!!" This isn't RP, folks. As was mentioned, it's Kindergarten playground behavior.
I find it extremely sad that so many can't see how the derogatory thought bubbles detract from RP and instead try to say we're against thought bubbles because we're OH SO HURT by them. Grow up, children, and play nice, eh?
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Arach Webweaver
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 0:39 AM |
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Player
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One day, when your character is surrounded by drow priestesses or some other form of bullies, and they tell you to shut up(which is a way of saying: type nothing), then maybe you'll appreciate the wonder of thought bubbles.
If you've ever been to a Sacrifice in Ultrinnan you'll understand how little most of the people in the altar room actually CAN participate other than thought bubbles. Otherwise I might as well walk away from my comp for an hour and come back and hope the Sacrifice has ended. You can't really speak during a Sacrifice. And though most thought bubbles are insulting some are just to give someone something to type.
One of my favorite thought bubbles was during a Sacrifice where a male had is mind totally on something else and cared nothing for the sacrifice.
By the way, most insulting thought bubbles are directed towards people who are IC being jerks. It's not like a cleric saves someone and that person says oO(what a whore)Oo. NO. the person who got the insult deserved the insult and the only time I would ever stop that was if it was strong language.
oO(idiot)Oo = okay
oO(a--hole)Oo = not okay
Watch any anime and you'll find plenty of monologues voiced entirely within the mind. Sometimes a persons thoughts can be petty too you know?
The point: If your character is a jerk IC (like mine's is), then don't be pissed when the other characters who you are bullying and insulting IC think IC that you're a jerk. Let them get their chance to vent. Half the time the insults are coming from lowbies anyhow, and usually they are lowbies whom your powerbuilt/supreme godlike character is trying to bully or control or deny something anyways.
If you don't want thought bubble insults, don't be a jerk. And don't pretend that your a saint and this person is insulting you with a thought bubble for NO REASON WHAT SO EVER. We all know that's usually not the case.
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Shrewd
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 0:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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The DM's are not saying you have to change the way your character thinks.
What they are saying is, if you can't think anything nice... keep it to yourself.
I noticed a few times at the Grove Story Nights that when people are in the middle of the story, other people will do something like;
.o(I'm bored.)
.o(This sucks...)
And so on.
Whilst thought bubbles might give others a little more insight into your character, or give the rp a little 'bump' if someone's lacking ideas... you shouldn't use them to insult people. At all.
Thought bubbles don't HAVE to be there. And if they are, it's entirely up to you what you put in them.
A rogue with a master plan isn't going to voice the entire plan in a thought bubble so that all can see and metagame. No sir.
So... Simple solution that doesn't need a big discussion about it...
Don't put insults into thought bubbles.
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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Arach Webweaver
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:09 AM |
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With what Marauth said about story time at the grove I agree with. When someone is telling their story and someone else to put oO(this sucks)Oo is really poor in taste in so many ways it's not funny. But if you're giving a torturous female circumcision(which, by the way, I studied about and they are very painful and they suck for life), and that victim insults you in thought bubbles, then you better take it.
Because that simple insulting thought bubble may have been the only last shred of dignity left in the poor victim before you cut out their vagina. You better take it good in the rear.
Female circumcision!? Seems a bit excessive, that's all I'll say on that.
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Straz Finster
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Location: Erie, PA, USA
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As much as I would like to give you credit for this thread, smellysocks, you are simply the last in a line of five, yes FIVE, complaints I have received about this in the last 4 days. Two (including yours) involved drow and the others non drow.
What does this mean? It means that this IS an issue that bothers many people and if you can't see the childishness of it then you need to re-examine what you think you know.
What exactly is stopping a drow matron from calling a male an ass IC anyway, if that is what she thinks?
[EDIT] By the way, if I see anyone performing anything like a "female circumcision" I will put a stop to it very quickly, depending on who is involved. This is a brutal and inappropriate excuse for role play that is very close to rape in my book and if it involves minors a ban will be issued.
_________________
According to Dictionary.com:
Liberal: Relating to or having social and political views that favor progress and reform
Conservative: Favoring the preservation of established customs, values, etc, and opposing innovation.
'Nuff said.
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Zafriah
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 May 2006
Location: Australia
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(As usual) here is my opinion :
Words (either in conversation, ooc, tells, thought bubbles - what ever) are always going to be interpreted differently by different people/characters. What I'm trying to say is :
What may NOT offend one person, COULD offend another. Just like in real life!
Example :
Person A to Person B: Geez, you're bum looks big in that armour!
Person B : *starts crying*
OR
Person A to Person B: Geez, you're bum looks big in that armour!
Person B : *laughs* Excellent! Eating all those cookies is FINALLY starting to show! *checks out their own backside and smiles*
So - just be careful what you say and who you say it to (thoughts, tells, conversation - anyway you communicate with someone).
(As for the thought bubbles being used for Metagaming....agreed... sometimes it's nicer not to know things!)
Oh and - keep it fun.
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smellysocks
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
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In my example, I was merely a third party.
Observing from the other side of the room.
Not actually participating other than to watch, meaning that I had not been speaking at all, so for me to blurt out one sentence did not seem very IC at teh time.
I did however think he (the character) was being stupid, and I typed a bubble that I agreed with the statement. Which I felt was more appropriate at the time.
His childish rant that followed was just that, childish. Whether or not other characters use this method to insult him OOC had nothing to do with me. If he has an issue with being bullied by others, then that is where his hostility should be directed.
Forgive me if I am angry about the events that precipitated this thread, but the behaviour I observed last night was infantile, and if it is indicitive of his game play, I am not suprised that he has issues getting along with others.
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Rowan Peters
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: here?
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I think five pages in agreement justify me not having to write a case in agreement as well. Thought bubbles are usually dumb. If you're funny use them or if you're not funny use them to express how much you wish you were me but aren't. Props to Straz for posting about this.
if you can read this, you don't need glasses.
-Rob
_________________
==>*READ THIS!*<==
*Disclaimer:* if anything in this post is the least bit offensive to you, keep it to yourself. I dont care. Really I don't. It's probably a joke (just like this disclaimer.) Laugh.
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luna_drache
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 5:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Location: Messing with your dead body. Mwah-ha-ha!
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Marauth wrote: What they are saying is, if you can't think anything nice... keep it to yourself.
Yes!
I'll have to agree with the other five dms that have already posted about not liking these things. I've never seen them used for anything but insulting other characters and them not being able to do a thing about it. I'm not quite so annoyed by them, if they're used for comic relief, but I'd rather them just not be used at all, as no character I've ever heard of on Amia is a mind-reader. _________________ 
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RandomKobold
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 5:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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Arach Webweaver wrote: One day, when your character is surrounded by drow priestesses or some other form of bullies, and they tell you to shut up(which is a way of saying: type nothing), then maybe you'll appreciate the wonder of thought bubbles.
Er I thought the whole point of "shut up" was don't say anything, if you can use thought bubbles thats just saying stuff without the conseqeunces, emotes are your friend when your told to shut up. Things like [sweats profusely eyes darting about the room a look of uncertainty on his/her face]
_________________
Account: Sai's Pet Mage
Its cool to have a text only sig! Are you cool?!
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Dwagin
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 8:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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I see thought bubbles as a useful medium, sometimes.
I can see the point of using them to illustrate some sort of interactivity of a character in GS, other than:
*Exists there on another plane, that you cannot-hear-see-do anything about and listens in and spies to whatever ends they want.* Maybe thats just me being wierded out by voyeuristic activities. I have 3 characters, and all 3 will say anything they think, if its not time to remain quiet about things, or if readily communicable.
My one character has... Common communication issues, most of the time people that haven't been around her can't understand the flow of her speech, as they've not been introduced to her manurisms and 'interesting' choice of words. *Glares at you with obvious hatred and disdain for your very existance as you loot out of turn, insult my deity, or race...* . o O ( Why, Goddess, why do they do things to test me so?... )
I also see them as a useful way to get across character intent in an OOC way, specifically if the character's communicative problems are... something that could cause issue. Ergo, a disagreement that will yield with someone glowing dark pink-purple face down on the ground, or unpleasant rammifications.
Some people like 'acting' and 'talking' like badasses in character but like to go running crying to a DM about getting attacked, or get their feathers in a ruffle, if they insult the Dragon Disciples' patron.. call a drow a spider kisser, insult a cleric's deity, or commit other affronts. I see it as a way to illustrate, unless they really want to reap the seeds they are sewing they need to...stop.
But standing invis/gs'd.. and just endlessly insulting, for the sake of it.. in thought bubbles? Bad form. An ocassional IC quip if someone is being a tard IC.. well. Then yeah I don't care. Or if it helps others learn more in depth about your own character...again, don't care, but I can see how gleaning information ICly to react to it would be impossible unless a psionicist or mind reader or clairvoyant.
Overall this is an interesting discussion, but ideally if someone ever asks you to stop doing something thats ruining their gameplay it is polite to stop, immediately... Even if you think its within your right, to do otherwise is just being an arse. We're all here to have fun and folks shouldn't forget that.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Teufel Eldritch
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 13:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Not directed to anyone in particular.
Thought bubbles like everything else in the world can be used correctly or misused. It isn't the thought bubbles that's the problem it's how -some- ppl are using them. Soooooo don't come crashing down on thought bubbles because some ppl can't pull their head out of their.............
_________________
YANKEE ROSE
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Oarthias
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 14:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Atlanta, Ga & The Grove
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Marauth wrote:
I noticed a few times at the Grove Story Nights that when people are in the middle of the story, other people will do something like;
.o(I'm bored.)
.o(This sucks...)
And so on.
and those that do that once get a tell from me telling them to stop ... if done again, they are asked to leave.... for those that sub in for me on the occassions I can't run the event, I ask them to do the same. There is no reason at all for that kind of -rude- behavior ever! If you are that bored leave... or hush and wait your turn to tell a better one. *nods* _________________ Oarthias wrote: I've moved on and away from Amia... care to know where... msn me.
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Funiculus
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 15:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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Oarthias wrote: Marauth wrote:
I noticed a few times at the Grove Story Nights that when people are in the middle of the story, other people will do something like;
.o(I'm bored.)
.o(This sucks...)
And so on.
and those that do that once get a tell from me telling them to stop ... if done again, they are asked to leave.... for those that sub in for me on the occassions I can't run the event, I ask them to do the same. There is no reason at all for that kind of -rude- behavior ever! If you are that bored leave... or hush and wait your turn to tell a better one. *nods* It has largely been a certain set of people (not naming names), but we'll endeavor to crack down on such malicious OOC disruptions when someone is telling a story they've often spent a good deal of time preparing for the enjoyment of all in attendance. If someone is repeatedly disruptive; we might look to banning them from storynight or having a DM remove them (if they refuse to leave on their own).
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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Budly
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 15:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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Erh why care about Bubbles? You dont really know them anyway! It is silly...
But! As in grove story night such as (This sucks) and simular shouldn't come up, but in pure RP I think bubbles are okay.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 15:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Exactly what do you mean about "Pure RP"? The Story Night is pure RP. Though I have noticed an irritating trend of getting OOCly touchy about IC interruptions. It's not a channel for you to tell your stories to other players, after all, it's a way for your characters to share stories. And IC interruptions are perfectly fine, and not to be taken personally.
However, thought bubbles in that situation, especially if insulting, are completely unneeded and bothersome. But otherwise as well.
I agree that thought bubbles are often used badly, but they still can be used for good, too. There is a time and place for everything.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Thril
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 16:37 PM |
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Player
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I use thought bubbles a lot to enhance my characters rp. Since one of my character is drow and I sometimes have to sit at meetings and hear the same speech over and over I sometimes use my thoughts to justify my actions. Take for instatnce, one time I was at a meeting and I simply got a bit tipsy. Along the entire way I used my characters thought bubbles to signify that with every drink I took the more and more intoxicated I became. If I had not used thought bubbles people would have only seen me over at the end of the table taking a drink of wine every so often, nothing implying that I was getting drunk. It was going great, I enjoyed it and I would like to believe that the people around me where enjoying it also.*sighs* Then a DM decided to attack Ultrinnan. There's some good news. I was drunk and my ilharess ordered a fellow drow and my char. to go scope out the city. I was to drunk to pay attention and luckly the other fella helped me out after noticing that I was a little worse for wear. So in short I like thought bubbles, I find them entertaining for the most part, but I do see others using them as a way to frag someone and get away with it, which is not cool if it is an OOC retaliation to OOC conflict, that much I agree with. I find it very enjoyable to watch others thought bubbles. I mean my character may not know what is going on, but that shouldn't prevent me, the guy behind the screen, from getting a little chuckle here and there.
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Funiculus
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 16:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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I believe there are a few "liberties" taken with storynight to facilitate the event is what Budly means; rather than a more strict adherence to IC RP the rest of the time (Grove for example is far more lenient on who comes in to hear the stories...until they get disruptive).
Blasting people with spells, yawning every few minutes to spam the chat, thought bubbles about how poor the person's story is, and generally anything to OOCly put down the storyteller and be as disruptive as possible are negative things. A comment now and then is not unreasonable. But I've seen people put up half a dozen in a matter of minutes while someone tries to tell a story. It's excessive and for nothing else than an OOC "Look at me! Look how cool I am for making fun of ____!"
Childish at best. Especially if it's someone the player has an OOC beef with and has come just to harass them at something that player enjoys.
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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Oarthias
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 16:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Atlanta, Ga & The Grove
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IronAngel wrote: Exactly what do you mean about "Pure RP"? The Story Night is pure RP. Though I have noticed an irritating trend of getting OOCly touchy about IC interruptions. It's not a channel for you to tell your stories to other players, after all, it's a way for your characters to share stories. And IC interruptions are perfectly fine, and not to be taken personally.
However, thought bubbles in that situation, especially if insulting, are completely unneeded and bothersome. But otherwise as well.
I agree that thought bubbles are often used badly, but they still can be used for good, too. There is a time and place for everything.
NO I have to say interuptions during Sotr night is down right rude... people only there to drawl attention to themselves is not welcomed there... stuff happening just before and just after is one thing... but people put a lot of preperation to share with those that gather. people arrange their RL time to be there ... most have a limited amount of time that they can be there, I am sorry , but I like to respect that ... keep the drama out of your RP for the two / three hours that you attend... so far that isn't so much of a problem any more ... it was really bad in the begining to the point I was about to just kill the event and not host it.. I don't expect a lot from people, but those that don't give others RESPECT I have no tolerance for. _________________ Oarthias wrote: I've moved on and away from Amia... care to know where... msn me.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 16:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, I can understand that.. But, if that's the case, and the even is not meant for RP after all, only predetermined stories, wouldn't it be better to do it somewhere else then? No offence, but anything happening on Amia is IC, and anything can happen IC. Of course, I'd not lightly interrupt anyone's story, but if something very important to my character (if I had one who attended regularily) came up, he'd not give a damn for other people's stories. After all, they are the -characters'- stories, not the players'. And for the characters. If it's really just a way to share -your- stories, there are better places to do it than an RP server.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Funiculus
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 16:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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While sometimes there are legitimate IC issues that come up; by far and large the *problem* issues are ones where people have decided they want to be the center of attention or deride others over OOC issues; we're saying *that* is not acceptable; and I dare say that StoryNight is a good event and a good use of time on Amia. I'm sorry you disagree; but I see nothing wrong with Story Night; only with people who attend the event soley to cause problems.
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:00 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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If you can't have the OOC decency to shut your trap when somebody is telling an elaborate story then there are better places to do your RP than a storynight, as far as I can see. OOC courtesy ALWAYS goes for roleplay. There are not many valid excuses in this department, I am afraid, and I certainly never heard one.
[Edit: I unknowingly summarised Funi's post]
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Ummm, we don't have psionics on AMIA for PC's, right?
Yeaaa, I'm gonna have to ask you all to take a look at the reality of this translation, yeaaaa, if you could just do that, that'd be great. Actually, in all seriousness I don't understand why someone didn't make this point earlier, unless I missed it which is entirely possible.
Consider how you would do this if it were PnP and you were hanging out..
Player 1: "Okay, my character thinks your character is stupid and ugly".
DM: "Player 2, do you have any psionics?".
Player 2: "No"
DM: "How about telepathy spell, do you have it and is it active?"
player 2: "No"
DM: "Okay, player 1 what's your point? Player 2 will never know you are thinking that, you might want to tell him if you want him to know it, otherwise keep your comments to yourself as no one could possibly know you were thinking that".
Bottom line, o0() is, IMHO, completely inappropriate as no one should be able to SEE those thought bubbles and know what's happening.
That's like calling someone by their name when you haven't been introduced.
Regards,
Frey
_________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Nekhy
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:10 PM |
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Player
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I still go for emotes instead of thought bubbles. You can express a lot in emotes instead of saying something the other char has no way of knowing. We also got a word for distributing information that isn't accessible to the other characters present in the situation, and that word's description fits perfectly with thought bubbles: metagaming.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Frey, you are correct otherwise, save for a very important point, that I've been trying to stress. What we, as players, see/need to see/want to see is in no way the same as what our characters see. Whether your character is psionic or not, it doesn't change the fact that thought bubbles/emotes with more information than what you can just see, might interest certain players, while having no importance of impact on characters.
I don't think I'm really disagreeing with the Story Night thing, I just want to be absolutely clear. Disco's statement about OOC courtesy going before RP is partly true, but also very contradictury: What is OOC courtesy on an RP server if not the willingness to RP with others, doing the best you can to stay IC?
Of course, there are cases where this isn't true. There are troublemakers and idiots, there always will be. But when it comes to role-playing between experienced, good players, anything can happen ICly.
Personally, when I'm telling a story in Story Night, I think it's actually rather boring and rude for everyone to sit quietly and not react to what my character is doing/telling. Taking the story-teller seriously enough to let the story affect the course of RP is OOC courtesy, if anything.
So, yeah. I know the kind of jerks you're talking about, and even if that's what we usually see, it doesn't mean RP should be banned at an RP event. I only want to point out the theoretical truth of the matter, that'd always work in a perfect world.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Funiculus
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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IronAngel wrote: I don't think I'm really disagreeing with the Story Night thing, I just want to be absolutely clear. Disco's statement about OOC courtesy going before RP is partly true, but also very contradictury: What is OOC courtesy on an RP server if not the willingness to RP with others, doing the best you can to stay IC?
You're missing the point. *no one* should be forced to put up with OOC harassment. It's not a matter of the person being harassed being a poor RPer for not wanting to put up with it; it's a matter of the harasser being out of line. That's not acceptable on *this* RP server. That is what Disco is trying to convey; there is nothing contradictury about this. The rules state that such behavior is out of line. The person repeatedly using OOC means to create disruption does it for OOC reasons. There's no part of that that is "IC" or "RP". It's flat out obnoxious. If someone doesn't like a story or thinks story night is boring, then leave or do not attend the event. There is absolutely no reason for the person to disrupt everyone else's good time with "Look at me! Look how cool I am for putting down others!" nonsense.
Do you have to remain a statue during storynight? Of course not. But if the side RP has gotten to the point of OOC maliciousness; then yes; you've gone too far and the others there are perfectly in the right to tell you to stop.
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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Oarthias
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 17:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Atlanta, Ga & The Grove
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IronAngel wrote:
I don't think I'm really disagreeing with the Story Night thing, I just want to be absolutely clear. Disco's statement about OOC courtesy going before RP is partly true, but also very contradictury: What is OOC courtesy on an RP server if not the willingness to RP with others, doing the best you can to stay IC?
Of course, there are cases where this isn't true. There are troublemakers and idiots, there always will be. But when it comes to role-playing between experienced, good players, anything can happen ICly.
Personally, when I'm telling a story in Story Night, I think it's actually rather boring and rude for everyone to sit quietly and not react to what my character is doing/telling. Taking the story-teller seriously enough to let the story affect the course of RP is OOC courtesy, if anything.
So, yeah. I know the kind of jerks you're talking about, and even if that's what we usually see, it doesn't mean RP should be banned at an RP event. I only want to point out the theoretical truth of the matter, that'd always work in a perfect world.
never said not to emote during story night... *leaning forward with interest of what will happen next* *laughing at the humor* *cringing* or *shivering* to the details told is great and welcomed.... maybe one *yawn* is something you could get away with and not be rude .. any more then that would be down right rude and tacky and unwelcomed... people do want to see if others are enjoying it... that is fine.
Those that just come to insult, *stare at everyone evily, the evil radiating from their bodies so that you freeze up inside* ... hello , now is not the time ... go to cordor or something please. >.>
not only is it rude and uneeded... but quite frankly I got sick of alitha having to get up every five minute to throw someone out ICLy.. and we all know if Alitha stands up to have something done... >.< every grove member there does the same to back her up... and only one story ends up being told wasting all of our RPing time on trouble makers.
Just use COMMON SENCE really people! _________________ Oarthias wrote: I've moved on and away from Amia... care to know where... msn me.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well.. On an RP server, it's always time for RP. Be it ICly rude or not.
However. The situations that Funi mentioned, I can agree with. If there are OOC interests other than the pure enjoyemnt of RP, such behaviour is not acceptable. And you can always have simple common sense. But from some statements, it almost seems like you want the story night to be courteous, quiet and comfortable ICly as well. Such things are an obvious requirement on an OOC level, but you can not control IC events by OOCly saying that "your character is too rude to be here, please go RP somewhere else. This isn't the place". That can be told to the character, ICly.
Of course, like I said, not everyone is there with simple, humble RP in mind. They migh act rudely, and try to be at the center of attention. These people are not worth our time. However, when it comes to serious, respectable RPers, anything goes ICly. (As long as it stays within the server rules, of course) Sure, I might feel slightly annoyed for a while, if my story was interrupted by some character's perfectly IC and good behaviour. But these feelings would be wrong and unjustified, just a part of my human selfishness and weakness.
If you OOCly ask me not to do something, that'd be perfectly IC, I'll respect your wishes. However, that's not what a perfect role-player would do. Someone who truly is playing for the RP, would play along and enjoy the unpredictability, just like in real life. I don't expect anyone to really be like this. I'm not, you're not, probably no one is. We're humans, with flaws. I am simply presenting the unattainable goal, that we should always work towards.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Arissa_Nightblade
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: SEGA!
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Oarthias wrote: Just use COMMON SENCE really people! Oarthias wrote: Just use COMMON SENCE really people! Oarthias wrote: Just use COMMON SENCE really people!
quoted 3 times for emphasis ^_^
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Didi
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Location: UK - GMT
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I remember the night Thril got drunk, and I really appreciated those types of thought bubbles. I am well aware of how difficult it is to take part in some of the roleplay in the underdark as a male, and I thoroughly applaud those who play males, and manage to do a great job of remaining involved even when they're not saying anything.
There's a difference between this, though, and the kind of non constructive emotes that annoy everyone around you. There's a big difference, say, between a male being bored and emoting getting drunk in his thought bubbles, and a male getting bored and emoting how much he hates a particular female. I'm always quite concerned about how dull such things must be for the poor voiceless males, believe it or not. I'm sure you can imagine how much worse it makes me feel when they're emoting how very crap they think I am at the same time. It does put a dampener on roleplay at times.
I don't think anyone is really arguing here. There is RP that is enjoyable for those around you, and there is RP that is annoying to those around you. We're struggling to come to a consensus, because of the semantic line between situations like Thril getting drunk because he's bored (good), and situations like being bored at story night (bad). I think if you put us all in those situations, we would all largely agree which people were being gits, and which were doing their best to add to the RP around them.
I think its particularly difficult in the underdark, because we have a lot of set pieces, like tortures, or meetings between important people, which it would seem ICly rude to interrupt. This has lead to a lot of thought bubbles, generally of out of a desire to be respectful of the RP, and I dont think this is a bad thing at all. But when you use something often, you sometimes just get to saying what you char thinks, without thinking how it affects those around you. Obviously, we should all be considerate of those around us, that goes without saying, but none of us are perfect. Discussions like this are useful from time to time, because they remind us about what our fellow players would like to see from each other.
_________________ 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I very much agree with you, Didi. I argue for the sake of arguing. I enjoy it, and it's very good for improving my argumentative skills and learning to think better. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Funiculus
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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Irregardless however; Amia is not a "real" world, and there are restrictions on what behavior is and is not acceptable (if I might push the thread *slightly* back towards the original topic). Your char might really be thinking rude or obscene thoughts; but forcing them on others via "thought bubbles", absurdly disruptive emotes, etc; they're out of place. That crosses the line between Role play badguy-ness and OOC bullying. I'm sure we can all see that there *is* a line between them and something players have to be aware of. It's never going to be a perfect Utopia; but to make the experience for everyone the best possible, we must remain conscious of our actions and responsible for them.
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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Budly
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: Hin Town
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IronAngel wrote: Exactly what do you mean about "Pure RP"? The Story Night is pure RP. Though I have noticed an irritating trend of getting OOCly touchy about IC interruptions. It's not a channel for you to tell your stories to other players, after all, it's a way for your characters to share stories. And IC interruptions are perfectly fine, and not to be taken personally.
However, thought bubbles in that situation, especially if insulting, are completely unneeded and bothersome. But otherwise as well.
I agree that thought bubbles are often used badly, but they still can be used for good, too. There is a time and place for everything.
What I meant was in events...such as story night it ishould a no no but in normal plain RP a (hmm look at that ugly sod....groose! orc blood and all) I say it doesnt matter.
And people shall not be so sensitive when in the game, it is just a game..ignore the fellows who do such things and they get tired.
_________________
Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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Oarthias
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 19:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Atlanta, Ga & The Grove
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Budly wrote: And people shall not be so sensitive when in the game, it is just a game..ignore the fellows who do such things and they get tired.
thing is most do take it as a game... others... not so much... *coughs* and no offence to anyone in particular, but remember most who play here are fairly young... some of them seem to be more mature then a good many adults that I know, but not all of them are. _________________ Oarthias wrote: I've moved on and away from Amia... care to know where... msn me.
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Arissa_Nightblade
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 19:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: SEGA!
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well we have a lot of sensitive people on the server, after all...
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Thu, Aug 31 2006, 21:07 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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IronAngel wrote: I very much agree with you, Didi. I argue for the sake of arguing. I enjoy it, and it's very good for improving my argumentative skills and learning to think better. Well, at least someone is actually learning something here.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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Stark_Raven_Mad
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Posted: Sat, Sep 02 2006, 7:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 May 2005
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I'd really like to thank everyone that expressed their opinions in a rational manner and helped add to this conversation and discussion.
For those of you who thought that any of my comments were in any way directed at you personally, no...they weren't. If I meant to 'name names', I would have.
I've been playing on Amia for years now, since just after the split from Arelith and I've noticed over that time the increasing tide of thought bubbles in use, most of them poorly used. I think what this comes down to is Respect and Common Sense, as people have stated. Thril's use of the thought bubbles was perfect I think. It adds to the RP without being used as an attack on someone directly due to OOC dislike. The thought bubbles used to be rude at storytime are an example of the improper kind. By the way, though, what's wrong with this type of RP:
Storyteller A: "We came upon a scorching desert! It was so hot, the water evaporated before we could take a drink!"
Random Dwarf A: *Begins to nod off to sleep muttering about how thirsty he suddenly is...*
(As opposed to...)
Storyteller A: "We came upon a scorching desert! It was so hot, the water evaporated before we could take a drink!"
Random Dwarf A: oO(ZzzzZzzzzZ Wish this stupid story would end so I could go have an ale.)
Is this example the first bit of RP can be seen and responded to by other people, giving the chance for someone to get up and serve drinks maybe or giving the chance for the person sitting next to the dwarf to elbow him in the ribs to wake him up. When the thought bubble is used, however, no one has a chance to do or say anything. Role-play is not helped or enhanced.
You could even do it this way if you felt your character truly wanted to or needed to be uncomplimentary:
Storyteller A: "We came upon a scorching desert! It was so hot, the water evaporated before we could take a drink!"
Random Dwarf A: *mutters under his breath about the stupidity of elves who forget to bring water to a desert*
Again, it comes down to common sense. There are many ways to RP without giving in to the temptation to respond to people in a derogatory manner in thought bubbles.
For years I ignored the thought bubble situation since the comments and the people behind them were simply petty and it wasn't worth taking notice. Then I saw that new players to Amia were being taken in by them and the poor RP style of insulting others and being disruptive for no good reason was being perpetuated. At that point I felt I had to say something.
Thanks again, everyone, for helping bring this issue to light so it could at least be talked about, if not resolved.
Stark
P.S. Smellysocks, the world doesn't revolve around you. The situation I mentioned in my earlier post wasn't even the one between you and I. It was a completely different situation I'd noticed recently. This issue is and always has been a greater problem than your one or two comments. Yours were simply a part of a greater whole that spurred the need for this conversation. I apologize if you felt I jumped down your throat. I didn't really, I was expressing my opinion as everyone in this thread has done. Now let's drop it and move on, alright? No one's been "bullying" me, that isn't what this issue is all about. Get a broader perspective, eh?
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MagnumMan
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Posted: Fri, May 15 2009, 12:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Location: MA, USA
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There are interesting situations where a thought bubble works well. At Dusk Haven, my main character Valdor was to be bound to (see: married) Delin for 100 seasons, and he said "during which time we may have children". This was a public ceremony so she couldn't exactly blurt out anything aloud, but she did put up a nice thought bubble rather quickly too: . o O (Children? I hadn't even thought about that...) - it can be a way to participate in roleplay when it isn't appropriate for your character to speak.
_________________
Lord Ao, Unseen Overgod of Abeir-Toril
Loviatar, Goddess of Pain and Suffering
Great Druid Valdor Dormanigon
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Fri, May 15 2009, 12:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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MagnumMan Posted in the Public Forums!
OMG!
*fangirl squeal*
Sorry, Mags, it just had to be done. More seriously speaking; I agree somewhat, but I find that thought bubbles are best reserved for when they can actually be constructive without being, well, hostile.
'Tis a very, very rare situation.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Signe Johanne
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Posted: Fri, May 15 2009, 12:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Thought bubbles are like cancer - No matter how benign it might be, I still don't want it anywhere near me.
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