AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Character's Descriptions for Criminal and Spying Purposes

Hopefully, not opening a can of worms, but I have to ask this because it's been bothering me greatly.

I see this a lot, from everyone and everywhere. It's not directed to anyone specific, or any specific situation, though I will link you to an example, since it is on an open forum: City of Ultrinnan -> VDVM Blacklist of Heretics and Undesirables (new), more thoroughly discussed on page 2.

Opinions differ from every direction (Staff and players alike) and the last time I checked, the Staff seemed to be studying what to do about character's description when used as a tool for characters to try recognizing each other, especially in situations of spying (be it the spy or the spied upon) and crime.

For instance. Some DMs don't mind when a character is wanted and, say.. the guard PC or NPC merely describes:

A) "The criminal looks like [Criminal Character's Name here, without any descriptions whatsoever]."

While others are not feeling comfortable with that because it can invite metagaming, however unintentional it is - since the character is instantly recognized by the name floating above its head first, even though possibly disguised as unsuspicious as possible - people try to find a way to make the disguise fall.

Sadly, though, "A" seems to be the most popular, despite previous and specific discussions on previous threads where it was frowned upon.

Some DMs like better when the descriptions are more complete, because they are more realistic and more fair to the aimed criminal/victim being spied upon, as described below:

B) "On the occasion of the crime, the suspect was wearing dark robes with dark green trims, had twin shortswords with negative and sonic glows, walked as lightly as a cat, was tall (around X meters/lbs) and weighted around X pounds/kg. He was not wearing a helmet, but the eyes were hidden by a mask, he had a scar across his nose, and short, messy brown hair."

Now, for the sake of my sanity and a couple of other players that I am sure feel harmed by "A".

Did the Staff actually get into a consensus about it? I am asking it, because I feel stupid and a bad sport when I warn a player that he cannot use "A" (based on what I've read and saw before), but then a ~DM~ comes and uses "A" on a different occasion. It's just.. frustrating, especially when you witnessed a DM reprimanding a character for using "A" instead of "B".

I have no intention of flamming or that this thread is used to comment on specific situations.

I am just looking for a clarification on this matter.

EDIT: I forgot to add another classic example of a description, falling in the same category as "A".

*Attaches to a note/Makes a highly/average detailed sketch of [Character's name] face.*

I want B plz.

TormakSaber wrote:

I want B plz.

I appreciate you telling us what you like better, Tormie. I really do! But what I am trying to know is:

BlackDahlya wrote:

(...) Did the Staff actually get into a consensus about it? (...)

Don't you guys think that maybe it's time the Staff gathered and discussed this matter, where all DMs will agree on having the same approach towards this matter and not reprimand a player if he uses of "A"?

I know you are all busy, that there's probably a list of things currently being discussed about and others yet waiting in line to be discussed. But isn't this one of those urgent things to be discussed, since most cryings of metagaming happens because of it?

Well, I suppose both are allowed to be used, but B is preferred...

Personally, I despise "A" and tend to disregard any notices I see faction-wise that say "Keep an eye out for *describes x person*, for he has done very bad things."

Just try to pay attention to what people look like. I have a bad habit of not paying attention, and only keeping track of names. I'm trying to stop doing that, though.

*Blinkishy ...* ... *Claps*

I actually did have someone use B with me at one point, t'was rather refreshing, actually. It took longer to find the person, which delayed finding information on them... But the longer the RP, the better, roight?

RP isn't about being handed information left and right and just allowing you to determine what you'll do with the information you've been given. B would add spice to most people's RP and make things... Not so simple.

EDIT: Of course it does make those who start such plots that are on very rarely a bit more of a menace than anything. I suppose my situation was lucky, the person I was after was on 70% of the time.

I love B, simply for the fact that if you work off of just rough descriptions, that gives you a chance to go after the wrong person, which leads to even more RP.

Regarding the part about a sketch of someone's face, in some circumstances I think it should be A.

You can't always go by what the person looks like by the graphics in the game. If someone doesn't give a description about their facial features in their bio, then I think you should have the right to use A, whereas if they give a good enough description of their facial features in their bio, it should compulsorily be B.

It's really hard to describe someone who can't describe themselves. It would be really good though if you could mask your characters name in NWN by using an object and not requiring a logout/login. That said, you could just create a character with a false name and go by another name in game

. But I digress. Go B, unless you have a good reason imo.

If I may take the realistic side a bit further - then not everyone can acurately describe facial features for people to draw. So I think saying "Long black hair" could be more fun than [A full description is written].

Also, in general we tend to make things easier for ourselves, because difficult experiences tend to seem frightening. We're just too lazy and prefer to get whatever we want now, instead of working hard for it - which is a shame, because hard work makes sure the experience is memorable, while easy and fast tends to be forgotten.

B ftw. More-RP ftw.

Double.

Serendipity wrote:

If I may take the realistic side a bit further - then not everyone can acurately describe facial features for people to draw. So I think saying "Long black hair" could be more fun than [A full description is written].

Also, in general we tend to make things easier for ourselves, because difficult experiences tend to seem frightening. We're just too lazy and prefer to get whatever we want now, instead of working hard for it - which is a shame, because hard work makes sure the experience is memorable, while easy and fast tends to be forgotten.

B ftw. More-RP ftw.

Although I'm sure this double-post was unintentional, it was kind of deserving of it. >.>

At any rate, agreed. This might give people more of an initiative to add descriptions to their characters instead of leaving it blank or using the default NwN text provided. Descriptions help quite a bit in several aspects of RP, not just for the sake of describing the character to have it assassinated when found out.

People might notice certain marks or appearances about a person that are familiar to them - things such as symbols, emblems, etc. Perhaps someone looks quite similar to another person someone knows, they could get the two confused. A person with long black hair with their back turned and a similar outfit to one of a character's friends might get them mixed up and start randomly talking to them.

So much potential, so little possibilities under current situations.

As a player who completely depsises metagaming after it almost ruined my most enjoyable character, I have to say B.

However I have played Amia long enough to know that Even if B was enforced it would not stop the constant onslaught of uninformed players using the A method.

As such I use two things, that help greatly in reducing rhe metagaming of my characters.

The first, I do not use the name that flaots above my characters head, this may be confusing for people at times however my belief is simple. If you cannot remember a characters name, why would your character remember the name. This may seem harsh but it is true.

This method also helps find people who are metagaming, for instance My character could commit a crime in disguise and walk around freely in cordor. A player could start a search and use the name that was floating above the head to speed thigns along. Players could be searching for the name above the head, and not my characters name. As such I would call them up on metagaming.

The second Method I use is a false Bio and portrait, I play and elf, I will have a bio with drow, and a drow portrait. Yes I do know this is misleading -however- my arguement is simple, If you are using a bio and portrait to decide things on a character you are not roleplaying. A bio is not a constant thing, it should be treated entirely OOC, this would be different if we could change Bio's ourselves however we cannot.

I also tend to keep a album of metagaming shame, im glad to say out of the numerous people guilty of minor to majour metagaming, there are few repeat's.

Regards
Craig

B says, if I change my clothes, cut my hair or use a different blade: I am completely unrecognisable.

If Ive been watching you for RL 10 hours, I know what you look like regardless. I have over 100 spot. I know things about you, you dont even know yourself.

Drow description: a male with black skin and white hair. Isnt going to cut it, is it? How can any description which says, "This person looks like one of the five heads people use" ever tell you enough? Does this really mean that with my 32 int, 22 wis and 100+ spot, I can't describe you well enough to let others identify you?

If you want to use B, make sure you have enough to identify you by: height, weight, scars, eye colours, hair colour, nose shape, hairline, etc etc in your character description.

As a real life example, I have moved to the UK, are you saying, after a year, which is probably the next time I will see my mother, father, brother, they will not recognize me because I've changed my hair or are wearing different clothes than they were used to seeing me in? Dont you think they should have some way of describing me?

Craig deathwalker wrote:

If you cannot remember a characters name, why would your character remember the name. This may seem harsh but it is true.

I have to disagree with this, actually... Remember, the idea of RP is to try to separate yourself from your character. This is to say, your character is going to be much stronger, yet much weaker, and much different from yourself... Or, that's how it SHOULD be...

To say that you, the player, don't remember a name, isn't to say your character doesn't have a better memory.

Very possible, but whatever you don't remember, your character won't remember either, now will he/she?

Sure, it'd be lovely if our characters could tell us things like we do them, but that's not gonna happen, sorry.

Kelly_Rose wrote:

Craig deathwalker wrote:

If you cannot remember a characters name, why would your character remember the name. This may seem harsh but it is true.

I have to disagree with this, actually... Remember, the idea of RP is to try to separate yourself from your character. This is to say, your character is going to be much stronger, yet much weaker, and much different from yourself... Or, that's how it SHOULD be...

To say that you, the player, don't remember a name, isn't to say your character doesn't have a better memory.

Remember, the idea of RP is to -try- to separate yourself from your character.

However that is not entirely possible, we can never create two seperate entities, and our characters will always take on traits that we ourselves have. One of the things that will never be seperated is memory, and as such you should not send a tell to someone saying "hey my char knows you, i just forgot your name what was it". Memory should remain IC, if you do not remember a name, then your character does not. Use that for RP, Rp that your character does not remember.

It would be ideal if our characters told us info, like we feed them, however that would mean they where living, removing the purpose of the Roleplay.

Regards
Craig

soriano_ wrote:

B says, if I change my clothes, cut my hair or use a different blade: I am completely unrecognisable.

It says that characters who don't know you and search for you solely based on the lacking "Wanted" poster will have a hard time finding you, yes. Why would my character recognize your character, if your character changed his appearance from the way he's described? (considering my char doesn't know yours)

soriano_ wrote:

If Ive been watching you for RL 10 hours, I know what you look like regardless. I have over 100 spot. I know things about you, you dont even know yourself.

Agreed.

soriano_ wrote:

Drow description: a male with black skin and white hair. Isnt going to cut it, is it? How can any description which says, "This person looks like one of the five heads people use" ever tell you enough?

It can't. Why should it? Why must things be simple?

soriano_ wrote:

Does this really mean that with my 32 int, 22 wis and 100+ spot, I can't describe you well enough to let others identify you?

No. But most characters don't have 32 INT, 22 WIS and 100+spot.

soriano_ wrote:

If you want to use B, make sure you have enough to identify you by: height, weight, scars, eye colours, hair colour, nose shape, hairline, etc etc in your character description.

Then again, we can't force everyone to enter a description. But what's impossible with simply asking the player for such details through a Tell? Then, other smart players, can ask players with no character description, to describe themselves shortly, and see if it fits the "Wanted" poster, or what not.

soriano_ wrote:

As a real life example, I have moved to the UK, are you saying, after a year, which is probably the next time I will see my mother, father, brother, they will not recognize me because I've changed my hair or are wearing different clothes than they were used to seeing me in? Dont you think they should have some way of describing me?

I didn't see anyone saying that. And they can describe you. But I've never seen the majority of people able to give me a description of someone that goes into details, rather than the general "Height, weight, color, body shape" and so on.
And your family will recognize you. People who haven't met you, won't. No?

Kelly_Rose wrote:

Craig deathwalker wrote:

If you cannot remember a characters name, why would your character remember the name. This may seem harsh but it is true.

I have to disagree with this, actually... Remember, the idea of RP is to try to separate yourself from your character. This is to say, your character is going to be much stronger, yet much weaker, and much different from yourself... Or, that's how it SHOULD be...

To say that you, the player, don't remember a name, isn't to say your character doesn't have a better memory.

Agreed. Of course I shouldn't play an Epic Wizard if I'm a moron, but must I be a genius to play a character with 32 INT? For example.

Don't we usually play people that are a bit beyond ourselves? What's memory in a place where our characters can bend reality and stop time? I don't see how my character is limited to my skills.

soriano_ wrote:

B says, if I change my clothes, cut my hair or use a different blade: I am completely unrecognisable.

If Ive been watching you for RL 10 hours, I know what you look like regardless. I have over 100 spot. I know things about you, you dont even know yourself.

How well you know someone has little to do with how well you can describe them to others. All those little things you've come to recognize about your acquaintances may seem obvious to you, but telling someone else, "Oh, he likes to quirk his brows just in this specific way that makes him look most baffled" isn't going to make everyone spot your friend in a crowd.

Neither way is perfect, but the system should always be somewhat biased in favour of the target rather than the observer, if it has to be biased one way or another. You can either make an extra effort to describe your target better, or you can simply leave it at the most obvious things.

Yes, our characters should know more things than we do. Sometimes they're smarter than we are. But you really can't refer to your character sheet when you hit the limit of your own skills. "Oh yes, I know my plan failed, but my character would have made a back-up plan. So sorry, I'm gonna walk out of this trouble by virtue of the plan my character has." That's ridicilous.

Which stat should regulate how well we can communicate those observations then? Let us know, and we can use it. And why exactly should the system be biased against the observer?

Logically WIS because that feeds into spot..

O course.. this means Clerics are your go to girls.. which is a bit odd...

Mm. Int? Or just roll spot vs arbitrary disguise?

Serendipity wrote:

soriano_ wrote:

Does this really mean that with my 32 int, 22 wis and 100+ spot, I can't describe you well enough to let others identify you?

No. But most characters don't have 32 INT, 22 WIS and 100+spot.

But I do...

Serendipity wrote:

soriano_ wrote:

If you want to use B, make sure you have enough to identify you by: height, weight, scars, eye colours, hair colour, nose shape, hairline, etc etc in your character description.

Then again, we can't force everyone to enter a description. But what's impossible with simply asking the player for such details through a Tell? Then, other smart players, can ask players with no character description, to describe themselves shortly, and see if it fits the "Wanted" poster, or what not.

Telling people you have just spied on them planning to invade Ultrinnan at 5 o clock on Wednesday, -curiously- tends to affect that plan happening or not.

555444333 wrote:

Logically WIS because that feeds into spot..

O course.. this means Clerics are your go to girls.. which is a bit odd...

Mm. Int? Or just roll spot vs arbitrary disguise?

I'd say the ideal would be a combination of Spot, WIS and INT. Spot so you can... spot. INT so you can put it to words. WIS so you can put it to words in a way others may recognize.

Hell if I know how to make a system of it. I dunno, is it naive to trust us players to know when to and when not to?

I don't think you should use a stat at all. You should base your character's expertise on your stats, and play them accordingly. We are a role-playing server, and it is the player's responsibility to play only characters that are within his capabilities to play. If you're too dumb to play a genius, don't play one. If you're too impatient to play a spy, don't play one. If you're too boring to play an entertainer, don't play one. And if you do, accept that your own ability determines the extent of your character's prowess. Saying that by virtue of your character sheet you should be able to flawlessly describe people to others in a way that will leave no room for doubt is at least as ridicilous as is saying that your character should know the answer to a riddle you can't figure out or that he has a ingenious back-up plan you haven't thought of.

The system should obviously be in favour of the target and against the observer, because it clearly cannot be perfectly equal. The observer is the active party, the one who takes initiative. If you want to spy on my character that goes about his daily business, go ahead. But it's you who has to make sure it's done fairly and make the effort to gain the advantage. I, the target, cannot be held responsible for asking any potential spies just how they're going to describe my character and if there is a way for me to avoid recognition later on. I think that's common sense and you understand what I mean, though.

soriano]But I do...[/quote]
Great. Then your character can. : )

[quote="soriano_ wrote:

Telling people you have just spied on them planning to invade Ultrinnan at 5 o clock on Wednesday, -curiously- tends to affect that plan happening or not.

Sorry, but this is the point where I get lost and forget what we're discussing anymore. :S

soriano_ wrote:

Telling people you have just spied on them planning to invade Ultrinnan at 5 o clock on Wednesday, -curiously- tends to affect that plan happening or not.

That's unfortunately the problem you have to deal with. On the flip side of the coin, telling every drow that Player X is going to invade Ultrinnan at 5 o'clock and giving them a "description" that allows them to detect this character whether he's dressed up as a cardboard box or a dragon will also have a curious effect on picking out that masterfully disguised person in the crowd.

Invading Ultrinnan is a bit of a bad example, though, considering you don't need to know what an invader looks like. Seeing him invade is good enough. Either way, it won't be perfect one way or the other.

Now way, Iron. I can describe any character perfectly from what I see - and that description will fit tonnes of players, because even though my character is there, and their character is there, all -I'm- seeing is a few pixels. I'm at a disadvantage already.

What people are saying when they say, give me a description, is that they dont want to be metagamed. This is really insulting to people who havent metagamed. Hell, Im the best spy on the server, Ive given descriptions to the best bard on the server, and people have STILL said, how could you have an accurate portrait? They've done it to people Veszfein actually knew ic.

You dont want anything bad to happen to your character? Then dont put your pc in a position for it to matter, and if you do, suck it up.

I never made the heretic list, I only added to it after taking over. What existed before I came along might have been dubious, but what I put on there was well evidenced. Strangely, noone ever had a problem until I started posting things about people who actually had something to lose. I did my job, and all the whining about it is the reason you havent seen me in Amia for months.

The Cobbit wrote:

I love B, simply for the fact that if you work off of just rough descriptions, that gives you a chance to go after the wrong person, which leads to even more RP.

This.

And I would just send a PM/Tell to the person you are spying upon, like this:

"I would like to know what your character's description is, as I have seen them in my travels, and was trying to describe them to another. I have a Spot of roughly blah-di-blah, and you decide what the skill should allow me to see in regards to your character. Please include whether or not this skill would allow me to tell if you were disguised, etc..

Thanks so much!"

Last edited by soriano_ on Sat, May 10 2008, 17:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.

That sounds so innocent coming from you, Estara, but when Naref says "I just happened to see you passing by" people think, "Oh my god, he knows where my babies live and he's coming to kill me". :twisted:

In the past, Veh has askked "Does your character look pregnant?" of someone, and seriously, she had to have a two hour conversation in tells to get that info out of them, despite having a spy stood there at that moment.

Plus the fact, half the people who are crying foul against me, dont like me oocly. Theyre not going to be very helpful.

If they don't give you a description, I'd take it to a DM and say: "You can watch me spy on them at this time, at this place.. and here's a few screenshots from when I spied on them before.. I have been doing my job, and deserve the description. This player is nullifying my RP."

Now imagine thats your character's life, Estara. Is Amia fun anymore? Are you going to bother to log in, if every day is full of this kind of ooc hassle? Nope, you're not.

The alternative is that people can trust that they have been spied on and suck it up. Something bad has happened to your character, deal with it, they got caught.

its just because your too good at what you do.

Yeppers, but is that my fault?

I completely agree with you: you're screwed. There's no doubt about it. It is unfair that you have to face metagaming suspicions and jump through hoops to be able to do your job. I don't doubt for a second Naref doesn't have legit reasons to know what half the important PCs on Amia look like, what they have for dinner on Thursdays and when their pets have birthdays.

It's the role you chose, though. You knew you wouldn't see anything but what the Bio says and the pixels on your screen. Alright, I'll be swayed this much: you don't have to describe exactly how large your target's nose is or how her lashes curl. However, "[Insert Accurate Description]" is just bollocks. What I could see is:

"The man is of average height, though somewhat stockier than usual. You can see he's used to fighting. His hair is straight, black and shoulder-length. He's been seen wielding a golden-hilted longsword, blue steel armor with spiked shoulder paddings and occasionally a cloak with Torm's symbol on it. His face has these features of note: *Mentions some of the more prominent factial features of the character, easy enough to be mistaken for someone else if the rest of the description no longer matched.*"

It's not so much a problem of the spy metagaming. It's a problem of everyone else who takes that description as a free pass to metagame.

//In Response to Naref. damn you Iron! :p//

Hell, if you tell me you've been watching, Fine. You an even do it in party with me, and we'll talk on party bar, have a joke and chill a bit.

Lotta folks seem to forget, that they're playing their characters. You sit there, and I'd say lots of people see the chatbar, their quickbar and the party hat as part of their character's perceptions. To a degree they are.
BUT
People begin to limit themselves by then using this mainly OOC info, against others, by changing what they're going to ICly say.. or going elsewhere, or going OOC and waiting until the spy gets bored.

So there are spies. So he's practically sat on your lap but you cannot do anything about it. My advice? Suck it up. Speak guardedly all the time. WHISPER! Use handsigns, obscure languages your characters would reasonably know. Emote writing it down, folding the paper, and then send a TELL!

My advice to drow - never say what you are thinking, unless you have to.
My advice to surfacers - sudden bouts of paranoia, are rubbish. Either play it, or ICly take precautions for certain things, but do not spontaneously start conversing about elephants.

This is just as bad as people buffing after an assassin warns them OOCly of a kill attempt. This is metagaming to the highest decree.

Basically, if you are being spied upon, you recieve a tell asking about your description.. Dear Lloth, just be nice, ask them their spot, and then if it's high enough, just tell them. It's boring to consistently be the invulnerable enigma, nobody will want to play with you because it's like an immovable object.

When the immovable object meets the unstoppable force, OOC tears ensue.
Frankly, it's basically just sportsmanship, and the desire to play the game. Sure, everyone likes winning, but sometimes you have to loose too.

So you lose. If it's not serious, get back up, try again. God forbid you learn from experience.

I think accusations of metagaming are a far bigger problem on this server than metagaming itself. And your point about other people metagaming is not my problem. Hell, I tried to get round this when I gave my descriptions to a top bard, to make these things communicable, and all hell broke out.

Seems like noone wants any way of their characters being known, even when they're so well known it hurts. If you've been seen by Naref, and he's decribed you to Veszfein, and there are posters of you made, really, what right have you got to complain? And yet, complain people do, and so much, it has stopped me playing my character.

I have a bit of a tip about reducing metagame, if I might go off-topic here for a moment ... Think I did earlier, too, which, I apologize for. x.x

Some people seem to get the idea of, "Oh, I'll send this person several Tells explaining exactly what the character's doing every second and tell them, also, what's going through their head..."

... Now, in MY position, I already know some of the things they tell me after their emotes and words their characters say, but now, I can't point them out or respond to them because the player just decided to tell me everything OOCly...

I'd much rather have the freedom of being left in the dark when I'm sitting there directly in front of your character, listening and ... 'watching' ... everything they say and do and be able to respond as my character ordinarily would instead of having to stay silent to avoid being accused of metagaming. x.x

Just a thought! But, another thought: If anyone decides to do that anymore, and you decide to tell me in a Tell, too, that that's what's going on, I'm not holdin' back anymorez! >.>

soriano_ wrote:

Is Amia fun anymore?

Honestly, I think most of your issues boil down to this, Naref.

Being a spy will probably always be a hassle, no matter what.. I'm sorry and Iron's probably sorry, but it is what it is. It's like the rule they have about Harassment. It's all "In The Eye of the Beholder." If the victim thinks it's harassment (even if to you it's not) then it IS harassment.

And if you're not having fun dealing with everyone's issues.. just try a new character, or taking a break, or something? There's nothing wrong with that at all

Amia should be fun for you.. so make it that way.. you can change it. You don't have to keep spying, if the OOC hassle is too shitty.

Make a new character or go take classes on how to do carpentry, and stop playing Amia for a bit. You know.. just.. be happy

I really think people could stand to lighten up a bit, particularly when it comes to things like this. Perhaps it's me, but there seems to be an ever-piling amount of quibbles and complaints with the way some people handle their RP. In this instance, it's very possible the A method is used because the player himself forgot the details of the person, but feels his character, who maybe is supposed to have an excellent memory, would not. So long as one takes into account certain things, like making sure to say a description of the face is left out if the person is masked or to give a description of the disguise if the other person is supposed to be wearing one, I don't see a huge issue with saving time and speeding up conversation by using the A method. It's still ultimately the responsibility of the person who hears the information not to metagame it, even if it does "invite" it and if you're not actually going to outright enforce it (which would be a waste of time anyway) I feel like you're just creating this snobby little group of "elite RPers" who have dozens of little etiquette rules for how they'd like everything to be handled. Not trying to sound inflammatory here, but someone who uses A is not necessarily a bad RPer, we use emote shortcuts all the time here, as it's hard to type much on the screen without it going off and people are often not so patient in waiting for a response. Personally, I'd have no problem with someone putting out a bounty that says *50K reward for Ogrillion known as Gralg. *a sketch and description is below*" because, certainly in his case at least, there's no way anyone is going to mistake him for anyone, and there's a lot of characters like that here.

Well, I've got to say I agree. As long as it's used responsibly, I don't have huge issues with it. Posting wanted posters on the forums or giving the descriptions in the middle of Cordor, with such easily metagamed descriptions public to everyone, is not really good sports IMO. Whether or not there's a huge pile of rules and etiquette printed somewhere, you don't really have to worry as long as things are in good spirit.

You've got a fair, point, but at that stage you then get the agonies of Naref as described above, in technicolour.

Btw, would it kill to use para's?

The biggest problem I have with this entire situation, is the fact a select few piss poor sports have ruined my entertainment. The medium through which I met my wife, the medium through which I was allowed to express my creativity, the medium through which I could be one bad ass m'f'cker. It may sound silly to some, but after three years playing in Amia it sucks to have to give it up because of whinging gits.

*gives him a hug*

Sadly, good nature and acceptance do not come as standard, rather they have to be taught upon occasion. Hang in there man, and.. maybe, if you do make a list, do it in baby steps, rather than the whole '100 faces and descriptions are placed up, as Naref finally gets an artist in.'

soriano_ wrote:

The biggest problem I have with this entire situation, is the fact a select few piss poor sports have ruined my entertainment. The medium through which I met my wife, the medium through which I was allowed to express my creativity, the medium through which I could be one bad ass m'f'cker. It may sound silly to some, but after three years playing in Amia it sucks to have to give it up because of whinging gits.

i agree whole heartidly, call it my ignorant american attitude but way to many people do things that can get their pcs in trouble and then whine about it afterwords. YES WHINE. so it honestly makes it hard for people who do want to spy, or try new things. What are you supposed to do when its quite easy to run to a dm or your metagaming faction buddies and come back and change it. No doub this will spark up how my point is wrong on so many levels but its the bleeding truth. ive seen so many actions get dystroyed in more ways than one just because some -bleep- doesnt agree or want to happen what happens. And its a cotton pickin shame that people drive others away through whatever means.

Naref by far is one of the greatest players ive ever come across in my 10 or so years online gaming and to see him get chased off over the lame things that have happened recently in my opinion is downright rude and irresponsible.

Sadly enough, the only person you have real control over is yourself. If you're unhappy with things as they are right now, find a way to change them for the better. It doesn't necessarily mean other people changing, all the time, as in this instance.. I don't really ever think it's going to be as you want it to be.. there will always be player-grief, people who don't want to lose, people who cry Metagaming, for whatever reasons....

*shrugs*

Like I said, I think a break or a new character would do you a lot of good.

About the original topic/BloodNAshes comment:

A is good n all, but B is better. Ask them if you forget what they looked like. Or if the pixels on the screen/their outfit isn't enough for you. You know? It's not that I'm not a fan of A, or that I don't agree with you.. B is just better in all possible ways.

It has not always been this way. People have not been so quick in the past to cry "meta!". And someone who has played one character in their entire time on Amia, who is more attached to that character than to Amia, is not going to take your advice lightly.

I truly believe that false accusations of meta should be punished just as harshly, IF NOT MORE, than meta itself.

The problem I have is that I have a character with over 100 spot hide and move silently who never takes her helm off, and supposely had a perfect description of her due to someone who doesn't even know her very well.. and is blind as a bat I may add

I had my medium of playing something sorta different being a grumpy paranoid female who is constant pmsing, and is rather violent..

I think ti should be a descrition and if it is a dominate spell should it not be upto the Dominator and the person it is effect to what information you get?

Folks, stay on topic, please.

We are not discussing specific characters/players and their amazing skills/RP, and they justifying descriptions such as A; nor are we discussing specific events - we all know that this is forbidden on the forums.

We are discussing a situation that can be abused and metagamed, and you can give your opinion without mentioning events, or how it happened to your character and you didn't agree.

Without a full description, or at least as specific as possible, the metagaming can occur from both sides: the described making up something that would mess up and lead away from the description whenever he is caught; and people wanting the bounty/the kill/what-have-you deciding they have the right to perform their action either way simply because they saw a name floating above the character's head.

EDIT: It's because of the paragraph above that I think that the DMs might want to discuss this topic further and try finding a solution none other than leaving it to the players to trust the other players - which often leads to frustration since, as we know, the majority of the players want to get out of a situation unscathed, even though they brought the situation upon themselves and are deserving of a negative consequence to their character's behaviour.

For the record, I grant permission to simply say *describes Yossarin* when giving a physical description of my PC. The combination of celebrity status and Epic Reputation would make me foolhardy indeed if I thought I could avoid being pointed out and identified in a crowd with minimal effort.

And yes with Keri and Boobs I do give anyone to say she was either smuggling watermellons.. or she was Keri.

but as I said in the thread that was mentioned in the first post of this topic, I do believe that a spy shouyld always screenshot such things I personally take two screenshots using the nwn screenshot and Frasps for double security. you can prove you were there, and they are easier to work out what you actually heard later in time.

Character's Descriptions for Criminal and Spying Purposes

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