AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by D-Finitiy on Fri, Jan 16 2009, 1:32 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Casting Epic spells while polymorphed. Acceptable or exploit?

This is for my own knowledge because I do that, not out of any situation. Just crossed my mind, wanted to know.

Good question... i've done that before too, just never thought that it maybe an exploit... :oops:

It's a feat-ability, so I'm reluctant to say it is an exploit.

Is using Improved Knockdown or Bard Song while polymorphed an exploit? I'm inclined to say 'no'.

My second justification for this: Epic spells are also special in a few ways, namely you don't need a book to prepare them even if you're a wizard, because they are an "Indelible Part of the Caster".

I'll go with Leggy here.

I thought polymorph potions combined with hellball was a common way to get rid of annoying GSed casters? oh well...

It might be wise to define an exploit for yourself and the general demographic before getting all exploit-curious on us.

An exploit is a conscious awareness of "cheating-the-system" so to speak. HIPS + stab + HIPS + stab etc. for example, another is the infamous PVP befriendment exploit, "Hey there! I'm your enemy, let's be friends *STAB* Now i'm your enemy again, let's be friends *STAB* (with possible sneak attacks each time) ... I'm sure you all know how it works.

It's clear to say these are exploitative devices that were flaws in the manufacture of the game that they really just couldn't predict, or knew would happen, but were just like "meh".

So, i'm going with Leggy on this one ... The epic spells are indelible to the character itself, and are conditioned through a process of arduous training that it has surmounted the seemingly benign spell levels (psh, who needs spell levels, i'm EPIC)... So yeah. Does that help ze thought process?

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HIPS + stab + HIPS + stab etc.

Not An Exploit. HIPS is a Free Action and contary to NWN2 has no cooldown. NWN1's implementation outside not being able to detect shadows is, erm, uncannily correct.

Well, true ... I suppose what i meant was, it's a roleplay exploit... If the circumstances of the HIPS + stab + HIPS + stab point to "no can do major!"

Perhaps that is what this question is refering to this whole time, is the polymorphed epic spell casting an RP exploit? Wherein an Iron Golem has no ability to cast magic (unless programmed to do so), but can still cast Epic Spells.

My answer would still be no, whilst the person is polymorphed as whatever form they seemingly manifest, they still have innate qualities that are, as aforementioned, indelible to their being, one of these being Epic Spells.

Perhaps i'm picking this apart too much.

lathandier wrote:

Well, true ... I suppose what i meant was, it's a roleplay exploit... If the circumstances of the HIPS + stab + HIPS + stab point to "no can do major!"

Umm *cough*

lathandier wrote:

It might be wise to define an exploit for yourself and the general demographic before getting all exploit-curious on us.

Might want to do the same when you mention RP exploit, because I'm not sure what an RP exploit is. Ruleset for RP is layed out, either your metagaming or your not?

lathandier wrote:

Perhaps that is what this question is refering to this whole time, is the polymorphed epic spell casting an RP exploit? Wherein an Iron Golem has no ability to cast magic (unless programmed to do so), but can still cast Epic Spells.

My answer would still be no, whilst the person is polymorphed as whatever form they seemingly manifest, they still have innate qualities that are, as aforementioned, indelible to their being, one of these being Epic Spells.

Does shapechange still have the "if you stay in the form too long you need to roll vs loosing your self and forgetting you shapechanged?" check still? Just wondering.

lathandier wrote:

Perhaps i'm picking this apart too much.

Ya, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Regards,

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Does shapechange still have the "if you stay in the form too long you need to roll vs loosing your self and forgetting you shapechanged?" check still? Just wondering.

I don't think that ever existed. Though it is mentioned purely as flavor text of the Shifter/MMaster of Many forms classes that the really old ones attain so many forms they forget which was the original.

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't think that ever existed. Though it is mentioned purely as flavor text of the Shifter/MMaster of Many forms classes that the really old ones attain so many forms they forget which was the original.

He was being sarcastic m'dear.

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Umm *cough*

Likewise darling.

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Might want to do the same when you mention RP exploit, because I'm not sure what an RP exploit is. Ruleset for RP is layed out, either your metagaming or your not?

Simple, and you answered it, so no need to ask. If you've nothing definitively helpful to contribute, then listen to your mother's words "Don't say nothin' at all."

And for the record darling, it's "you're", not "Your" ... L2love.

Regards,

Tormak wrote:

I don't think that ever existed. Though it is mentioned purely as flavor text of the Shifter/MMaster of Many forms classes that the really old ones attain so many forms they forget which was the original.

Actually, I think that was a part of the "polymorph" spell back in DnD 2.0. A person who spent too long polymorphed into a bird might actually start to think they're really a bird, etc. But, it wasn't carried over into 3.0+.

I'm inclined to think not a exploit.

lathandier wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I don't think that ever existed. Though it is mentioned purely as flavor text of the Shifter/MMaster of Many forms classes that the really old ones attain so many forms they forget which was the original.

He was being sarcastic m'dear.

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Umm *cough*

Likewise darling.

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Might want to do the same when you mention RP exploit, because I'm not sure what an RP exploit is. Ruleset for RP is layed out, either your metagaming or your not?

Simple, and you answered it, so no need to ask. If you've nothing definitively helpful to contribute, then listen to your mother's words "Don't say nothin' at all."

And for the record darling, it's "you're", not "Your" ... L2love.

Regards,

Be less of a dick, Lathandier, seriously. That's impressive when you realize who's telling you this.

He got balls because people said he's oh so prettyyy!

Way to play that card Opustus.

Did any of you look at Frey's post? I'm not being a (censored), i'm simply standing up for myself when i am being insulted. I don't see how his post was contributing to the topic AT ALL, and therefore he shouldn't have done it in the first place.

And neither are the two of you contributing to this thread by pointing out, as hard as it is to reconcile to myself, that i am the (censored).

Now can we get back to discussing Epic Spells and whether using them in polymorphed form is an exploit, or what?

So... I will bring this point up. If in polymorphed form, such as Dragon or Iron Golem, does that hinder the caster from using their epic spells when they have lost the ability to cast normal spells? It would seem to me that it may be "metagaming" if say an Iron Golem has no ability to cast magic, yet the caster in the polymorphed form can.

lathandier wrote:

Way to play that card Opustus.

Did any of you look at Frey's post? I'm not being a (censored), i'm simply standing up for myself when i am being insulted. I don't see how his post was contributing to the topic AT ALL, and therefore he shouldn't have done it in the first place.

And neither are the two of you contributing to this thread by pointing out, as hard as it is to reconcile to myself, that i am the (censored).

Personally, I think it was the attacking someone's grammar that made you look bad ... if one's own is not perfect, it is not time to pick apart someone else's (mine is far from perfect, the same with yours).

lathandier wrote:

So... I will bring this point up. If in polymorphed form, such as Dragon or Iron Golem, does that hinder the caster from using their epic spells when they have lost the ability to cast normal spells? It would seem to me that it may be "metagaming" if say an Iron Golem has no ability to cast magic, yet the caster in the polymorphed form can.

I'd say that Epic Spells represent a new level of immersion in the Weave, and no matter what form you're in you can still call that power. I believe this is supported by the fact you do not need to prepare them in advance.

What does a mage need to cast spells?

1) Fingers and arms to draw symbols with
2) Vocal chords to speak the words
3) His mind & intellect to know how to do it all

My first answer was that sure, a polymorphed mage should even be able to cast normal spells. But the longer I think about it.. your stats change when you polymorph. That's a big red sign that also, you are not quite the same person once you're shifted. Your physical attributes may go up, while INT/CHA will shrink to a measly 10 or 12.

You can't quite grasp it anymore, though you have the vivid recollection that it was pretty easy when you still had your staff and hat. Knockdown is not rocket science, and Bard Song is influenced by Cha Mod as well as Perform. Both will most likely plummet once you're polymorphed. Epic Spells are not "innate and inseperable from your being, whatever shape or form you take". They're +9th tier spells and they should follow the same rules.

Epic Spells in NWN however are treated very special. They are Feats, they ignore Armor Spell Failure and they cannot be dispelled. RP-wise it makes no sense, but it's easier to just go with the mechanical side of things so people won't cry when they get Hellballed by a Dragon.

lathandier wrote:

He was being sarcastic m'dear.

Umm no, I wasn't. It was actually part of the shapechange spell, 9th level, back in days of glory past. And here's the part that was OT, since you seemed to miss it.

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Simple, and you answered it, so no need to ask. If you've nothing definitively helpful to contribute, then listen to your mother's words "Don't say nothin' at all."

lathandier wrote:

And for the record darling, it's "you're", not "Your" ... L2love.

I'm sensing a lot of passive-agressiveness in regards to your responses when I post. If you've a grudge against me, then by all means hold it if it warms your heart..but just don't do it in public.

You might want to think about that.

Regards,

Touche Frey. I apologise.

And i think i'm also leaning toward Xordae's here... It's just too hurtful to the mind to try and disregard mechanics for the sake of RP, and whilst i still hold it dear to my heart, i really couldn't care enough for what others do with RP.

So, my curiosity is at ease, danke.

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Your physical attributes may go up, while INT/CHA will shrink to a measly 10 or 12.

Nay, Polymorphs only ffect physical stats. Mindflayer shifter form altering intelligence is a huge exception.

Not to mention would (in the case of diviniation) reveal a lot of "invisible" information to the caster if they were to suddenly have a bazillion intelligence.

Woohoo. It's pop-philosophy time.

Would a caster with a bajillion intelligence
a) have his head pop
b) have an illithid pounce on him out of nowhere
c) know how to grow boobies, and do so! (if female, does not apply)
d) the proper boobies option.

I think it might be a cool idea to give a percentage to fail the Epic Spell when trying to cast whilst polymorphed.

The reason being you don't have the same mouth/vocal chords you're used to, hands/fingers/limbs you're used to, or possible ability to retain information whilst in that state.

If it's possible to do, people will do it. End of story.

Before the 1.69 patch clerics spammed Undeaths Eternal Foe. It wasn't supposed to stack the AC and we probably weren't supposed to... but we did it anyway. If people can cast epic spells whilst polymorphed, they will regardless of whether it's "Canonically legal" to DnD or not.

Galenson wrote:

If it's possible to do, people will do it. End of story.

Before the 1.69 patch clerics spammed Undeaths Eternal Foe. It wasn't supposed to stack the AC and we probably weren't supposed to... but we did it anyway. If people can cast epic spells whilst polymorphed, they will regardless of whether it's "Canonically legal" to DnD or not.

Isn't this the kind of logic that forces the developers to make changes?

I mean if you know you are exploiting don't do it just because. I don't think this is an exploit though. The fact that epic spells ignore Arcane Spell Failure and can't be interrupted gives me the feeling that anything can be going down and you are casting that spell.

I've been looking through the epic spell section in the Srd20 website, and it seems that Tormak's quote is correct - it's intrinsic to the spellcaster, and hence it seems plausible that they could cast them while polymorphed.

According to the ruels there, though, there's an additional factor.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#whatAreEpicSpells wrote:

if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.

I'm ofcourse talking core rules, which may not apply for Amia, but I've also found this under the Alter Self spell. And since Polymorph and Shapechange work exactly like Alter Self except if noted otherwise, this seems to apply to Shapechange into Dragonform:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm wrote:

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

I don't see any way for a caster on Amia to reach a spellcraft of 90 (as is the requirement, apparently, for the original spell: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/hellball.htm) without their fully functional equipment, so while it would certainly be possible for them to attempt the spell whilen dragonshape, their low spellcraft would prevent the spell from actually working.

I stress, ofcourse, that this is core rules, and not Amia, so.

With Core rules, spellcasters are so powerful, they can get rid of just about anyone with a reverse gravity spell or whatever, and summons aren't removed with etheralness, no matter how powerful they are. and abilities on items doesn't stack.. and so on and so fourth. This is Amiaaaaaaaaaa!!!

In one Arena style game i played, a wizard used Etherial and went inside a wall.. then summened a bunch of insects.. then cast Grow on them like a dozen times tell they were whatever the largest size is.. needless to say my barbarian got crushed in a Scorpians pincers..

BL Xenos, for your Barbarian that is.

Ok, so after looking at all that... Do DM's say 'Yes, you can do this freely.' or 'No, it's an exploit and you'll get in trouble.'?

The two that have commented on the matter so far have said that it's not an exploit.

Each of the Epic Spells available in NWN requires both Verbal and Somatic components.

I guess this answers it all. Depends on the shape the spellcaster changed to.

Epic spells and Shapechange [title edit]

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