AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Dominate Monster/Person and Mindblank Potions...

I've noticed this quite a bit...

Mage casts Dominate monster (or a spell just like it), their target character fails the will save.
Two seconds later the person dominated uses a mindblank potion to counter the spell and re-assumes attacking the caster.

...but dominate monster, means that the person's mind is dominated, it's just that, Dominated...why would the caster ever allow them to use a mindblank potion to break their spell unless the caster 'specifically' told them to? ...and why need to tell them to when the mage very likely has the mindblank spell anyway or could simply rest later.

So yes, using potion while already dominated, cheap, yes breaks IC flow of what the spell does with OOC mechanics, and I was wondering if it was possible to add a few lines of script to check that 'On use of 'mindblank potion' if pc is dominated, do nothing, and give funny message to the effect of "nice try, your dominated".

...or something along those lines so that way the player themselves cannot free the spell via their own inventory potion.

Advantages vs disadvantages....

No more cheapness with the mindblanks under a Dominate spell. (which would make this spell useful once again.)

vs.

Possible lag due to script check on mindblank potions used...(if there is a better way I'd love to hear it)

----------

Thoughts, suggestions?

As per the spell description; "The target temporarily becomes a faithful and loyal servent of the caster."

Deliberately doing something to undermine the caster, such as trying to dispel the mind control, would certainly go against this.

Well, if you're going to do this, do it right.

Quote:

Dominate Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.

Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).

Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action.

By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on.

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.

If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.

Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.

Mmm love technicalities, even if it's to the point of overkill on my basic point (can't have too much information...or can you...humm *ponders* naww it's the forums write pages and have fun) ^^

Now then.. where did I put it..

*roams around the room pulls out a secret cookie jar and waves the delicious cookie aroma around the forums*

Now where is Terra hiding?

----jokes aside----

Think this can be practically done with scripts to avoid too much lag?

...oh and more comments from other people are totally A-OK

Just stop RPing with gits?

Last edited by Azrael on Sun, Feb 15 2009, 3:46 AM, edited 1 time in total.

555444333 wrote:

Just stop RPing with gits?

That's like....half the server? ^^

What do yea think DM's do on Amia when their not fixing things or running events?

Dealing with:

*drum roll*

Gits.

Shouldn't be too difficult then?

I face the same problem when using it. if people mind blank up after I've dominated them, I just roll with the punches, and remember to avoid RP with that person in the future, especially when it concerns the spell.

It's not a viable pvp spell, sorry. Not as it is now. I play an enchanter who basically rely on that sort of spells, and I eventually accepted that. Just one of those things. Just like how some people get up after getting killed, even if their heads are smashed, because you didn't emote it fast enough and so on.

Have any of you ever bothered to say "Hey, in the future, please don't Minblank if you're dominated, your character couldn't.

" or something... similarly polite, I guess?

TormakSaber wrote:

Have any of you ever bothered to say "Hey, in the future, please don't Minblank if you're dominated, your character couldn't.

" or something... similarly polite, I guess?

Yes

...and then along comes another player I haven't met yet. (or someone who totally ignored it, for reasons not so unknown)

Azrael wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Have any of you ever bothered to say "Hey, in the future, please don't Minblank if you're dominated, your character couldn't.

" or something... similarly polite, I guess?

Yes

...and then along comes another player I haven't met yet. (or someone who totally ignored it, for reasons not so unknown)

that.

Which leads to avoiding to use it in pvp. I went from doing it to end PvP quickly, to never using it.

Azrael wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Have any of you ever bothered to say "Hey, in the future, please don't Minblank if you're dominated, your character couldn't.

" or something... similarly polite, I guess?

Yes

...and then along comes another player I haven't met yet. (or someone who totally ignored it, for reasons not so unknown)

So say it again.

Personally, I see it as a misunderstanding thing combined with "Bioware Sucks".

But if they do know and they still do it, is that exploiting a game bug?

Yes, imo. "Exploiting an RP bug" is more likely the correct thing, since Domination only applies a Daze effect to PCs out of mechanical necessity.

Wow, for once I'm not going to defend PnP.

In Bioware, Dominate does the following - Daze against PCs, Dominate against Monsters.

WYSIWYG

On the inverse, however. Dominate gives you control over your opponent's actions. However making them do something out of character for them (Example - Dominating a Salandran will not allow you to make them kill someone) permits them to make another save at a +2 Bonus.
By all rights, you can classify "DON'T drink a defensive potion after being cast on" as an action that would be out of character for 99.9% of adventurers. Hello, additional saving throw.

Anywho. Until Dominate doesn't let you control creatures to do things they wouldn't do withotu them getting an additional save(Dominating a Fire Giant to kill fellow Fire Giants, for example), then I'd say leave it as is. You want the PnP Rules, take in all of the PnP rules, not just the ones you like. It's a Daze effect against PCs, it's a Dominate against NPCs.

Azrael wrote:

What do yea think DM's do on Amia when their not fixing things or running events?

Dealing with:

*drum roll*

Gits.

There's only one git on Amia and that's me. The rest are just posers.

*Sighs* If you know that someone is going to exploit the rule then dont bother with them. As there is no way to tell before hand its just going to be a case of trial and error.

We all have to contend with that as we find out who we can and cant be bothered to rp with.

Quote:

It's a Daze effect against PCs, it's a Dominate against NPCs.

This. If someone decides to rp it as pnp dominate, it's their choice and should be done with content.

Last time I contented to be dominated PnP style, I kept getting occ crap and bitching for it for weeks after from those I was ''forced'' to act against. So... my characters are not going to be dominated again, period.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

We all have to contend with that as we find out who we can and cant be bothered to rp with.

Yep....sad but oh so very true.....

I always found it unfortunate that on an RP server, anyone, no matter how much they disliked the other person OOCly, would ever choose to ignore the existence of someone ICly.

Why not replace the effect of it with the Fairie Dominate/daze thingie?

Last time I saw it being used was the person absolutely nable to do anything, safe for typing and walking around. And that only with his keyboard keys.

HellScourge wrote:

Why not replace the effect of it with the Fairie Dominate/daze thingie?

Last time I saw it being used was the person absolutely nable to do anything, safe for typing and walking around. And that only with his keyboard keys.

That would be nice.

TormakSaber wrote:

I always found it unfortunate that on an RP server, anyone, no matter how much they disliked the other person OOCly, would ever choose to ignore the existence of someone ICly.

Ignore their PCs back! :evil:

HellScourge wrote:

Why not replace the effect of it with the Fairie Dominate/daze thingie?

Last time I saw it being used was the person absolutely nable to do anything, safe for typing and walking around. And that only with his keyboard keys.

You mean the shackles?

No.

Same old PnP thing.

Get permission if you wish to use the PnP dominate against a PC, then do so. Simple.

Question: I can't figure out where I read it, but I have a memory of Outsiders being immune to Dominate Person. You have to use something like Planar Binding instead. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

LetumLux wrote:

Question: I can't figure out where I read it, but I have a memory of Outsiders being immune to Dominate Person. You have to use something like Planar Binding instead. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

Yes, because outsiders are immune to mind-affecting spells

TormakSaber wrote:

Yes, imo. "Exploiting an RP bug" is more likely the correct thing, since Domination only applies a Daze effect to PCs out of mechanical necessity.

And that is my opinion ... we don't want the server to crash every time someone casts dominate (as Wonwon explained to me)

LetumLux wrote:

Question: I can't figure out where I read it, but I have a memory of Outsiders being immune to Dominate Person. You have to use something like Planar Binding instead. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

Not as a group no, but as a specfic type of outsider, perhaps.

Not at all, outsiders only have darkvision up to 60 feet.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

LetumLux wrote:

Question: I can't figure out where I read it, but I have a memory of Outsiders being immune to Dominate Person. You have to use something like Planar Binding instead. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

Not as a group no, but as a specfic type of outsider, perhaps.

Not at all, outsiders only have darkvision up to 60 feet.

My apologies, you're correct. I must have been thinking about something else.

Edit: Found it- monk Perfect Self. It says that they are treated as an Outsider "For instance, charm person does not affect her." However, this is not reflected in the Outsider category of the MM

TormakSaber wrote:

I always found it unfortunate that on an RP server, anyone, no matter how much they disliked the other person OOCly, would ever choose to ignore the existence of someone ICly.

I agree, Tormak, the moreso because I feel compelled to ignore several.

Last edited by Phantom-D on Sun, Feb 15 2009, 13:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Would it be too much trouble to change dominate to cause the Stun effect instead of the Daze effect?

The RP behind this is that if a mage is casting dominate they PROBABLY are going to order the character to just lay down and examine the ground so the mage can kill them with spells without too much fan fare. If that isn't natural enough, there is nothing in the spell description that says the mage can't command the PC to take a nap or go to sleep, which can be represented with Stun.

I could see the argument that if we are changing it we have to go the full mile and make it just like PnP Dominate but to be honest, the bioware implementation doesn't even KINDA represent what the spells does. The person can walk around of their own will, drink potions, etc.

NOTE: Changing it to stun would make Palemasters immune to dominate which might not be desired. But given the lameness of simply daze I really wouldn't mind.

I too would like to see it use the stun affect instead.

Brown Blur wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I always found it unfortunate that on an RP server, anyone, no matter how much they disliked the other person OOCly, would ever choose to ignore the existence of someone ICly.

I agree, Tormak, the moreso because I feel compelled to ignore several.

I try never to ignore anyone, seriously, I dont. But there are a few who I just -know- will cause me a bad day so I find good IC reasons to be somewhere else.

Having sadi that if I see the same player with a different PC I always make the effort to make time for them just in case its their PC that gets on my nerves.

I don't support the Stun. Mages have a separate number of Stun spells for a reason. Sure some jerks might abuse the mechanics of it, but that doesn't mean a blanket ban should be issued on the rest of those that actually use it the way it should be.

Simple. When mindblank is used check if the dominate effect is from a hostile PC if it is, don't remove it. Problem solved?

Also check if the mindblank comes from a potion since you can't cast dazed anyway.

Terra_777 wrote:

Simple. When mindblank is used check if the dominate effect is from a hostile PC if it is, don't remove it. Problem solved?

Also check if the mindblank comes from a potion since you can't cast dazed anyway.

That'd be nice

Terra_777 wrote:

Simple. When mindblank is used check if the dominate effect is from a hostile PC if it is, don't remove it. Problem solved?

Also check if the mindblank comes from a potion since you can't cast dazed anyway.

Are you choosing to only stop potions if the caster is hostile for mechanical reasons? I do understand that in a non-hostile situation, maybe the mage isn't watching as closely and the victim can sneak a potion.

UMD counts as casting a spell right? Because there are mind-blank scrolls. Also, are there any potions of clarity? They do the same thing as mind blank.

Phantom-D wrote:

Terra_777 wrote:

Simple. When mindblank is used check if the dominate effect is from a hostile PC if it is, don't remove it. Problem solved?

Also check if the mindblank comes from a potion since you can't cast dazed anyway.

Are you choosing to only stop potions if the caster is hostile for mechanical reasons? I do understand that in a non-hostile situation, maybe the mage isn't watching as closely and the victim can sneak a potion.

UMD counts as casting a spell right? Because there are mind-blank scrolls. Also, are there any potions of clarity? They do the same thing as mind blank.

Why wouldn't you default to blanket commands - do not try and escape my control, do not try and harm me?

Brings another question: Isnt the dominate effect supposed to end when you attack the dominated PC?

Jas wrote:

Brings another question: Isnt the dominate effect supposed to end when you attack the dominated PC?

If it doesn't, it should, or at the very least, the PC should be making so many secondary will saves at such a high bonus you'd think he had the iron fisted Will of Gandhi himself.

Meh, if you're dominated remove the daze effect and RP you're dominated. The mindblank thing I suggested was just to make sure its not dissed.

Yes, I agree with Terra, generally speaking. >.>

I think the issue you're seeing is, in the heat of PvP, people without spellcraft, and this is a lot of the people you're casting Dominate Monster on, simply may not even realize OOCly that you've Dominated them and not simply done some other spell that allows them to chug a potion and keep going. That's why I suggested informing the player that it was a Dominate Spell, if they'd like to go along ith the RP domination, etc etc.

I'm not sure how one should interpret the PnP and NWN differences between Dominate. The NWN description clearly states it's a domination, so it's not completely justified to say it's just a Daze effect. It doesn't require PnP knowledge to know it makes you a servant of the caster, it just requires you to read the spell description. On the other hand, the PnP spell has much more sophisticated rules than the NWN version, and should really be used instead of the crude NWN mechanics. In that sense, it is a PnP spell.

Then there's the differences between the heat of PvP and an RP situation in which you have time to explain what you've done. As pointed out, there's no way for a no-spellcraft person to know they've been "Dominated", unless they're very NWN-savvy. If I was going to dominate someone in PvP, I'd warn them beforehand.

As a DM observing an RP in which someone is dominated but doesn't realize it, I generally do give them a nice, brief explanation of the spell, and expect it to be treated as a domination. (Though usually, there's no need for me to say anything, players are perfectly capable of handling it themselves.)

As a player who's seen Dominate Person used, who's used it on others, and who's had it used on him, I can't say I've ever had problems that weren't handled with a few kind words and some patience. Players realize what it means to be under domination. I've never seen them argue about it when it's been explained with due patience and respect. So really, that leads me to believe my above musings of its exact nature as an NWN/PnP spell are completely irrelevant. People generally aren't jerks unless you're a jerk to them, and those who are will often have larger problems to worry about from the DMs than a domination spell.

Problem with Dominate in the "heat of PVP" is that people really use it to daze and *kill* you. Now, I'm pretty sure RP-wise the current NWN game mechanic of dominate being -stand there and do nothing while being killed by the mage- is just as strange as the dominated person using clarity.

I'll just put a check on mindblank doing this:

if its casted from a item (scroll, potion, etc).
and the target is the same as the caster.
and if you got the effects from a dominate spell.
and if the people who casted the dominate on you is hostile.

then ignore the daze effect giving a flashy *you're dominated* feedback or something.

I'll also crack up dominate and set the duration to rounds if its a PC targeted since otherwise it'd be turns... and thats a longwhile.

Fairs fair?

Sounds good, Terra. I was just about to drop a heated comment here about the uselessness of a 9th level spell on PCs. It really does need to be backed by mechanics. Not backed by mechanics = it's not there. For most folks.

Nourm wrote:

Problem with Dominate in the "heat of PVP" is that people really use it to daze and *kill* you. Now, I'm pretty sure RP-wise the current NWN game mechanic of dominate being -stand there and do nothing while being killed by the mage- is just as strange as the dominated person using clarity.

I do agree with this, yes.

EDIT: To clarify...

Quote:

Torin says (3:34 PM):
Nourm summed it up. Mindblanking will stop being an issue when people stop using Dominate in PVP as an incaopacitator to kill the target.
Torin says (3:35 PM):
If it's for the RP, the mindblank won't mean anything, and all you need to do is send a tell asking if they'd like to RP the domination out.

Terra_777 wrote:

I'll just put a check on mindblank doing this:

if its casted from a item (scroll, potion, etc).
and the target is the same as the caster.
and if you got the effects from a dominate spell.
and if the people who casted the dominate on you is hostile.

then roll a will save ignore the daze effect giving a flashy *you're dominated* feedback or something.

I'll also crack up dominate and set the duration to rounds if its a PC targeted since otherwise it'd be turns... and thats a longwhile.

Fairs fair?

Add that will save there, as discussed earlier in this thread.
Every action and command is subject to an extra roll.

Terra_777 wrote:

I'll just put a check on mindblank doing this:

if its casted from a item (scroll, potion, etc).
and the target is the same as the caster.
and if you got the effects from a dominate spell.
and if the people who casted the dominate on you is hostile.

then ignore the daze effect giving a flashy *you're dominated* feedback or something.

I'll also crack up dominate and set the duration to rounds if its a PC targeted since otherwise it'd be turns... and thats a longwhile.

Fairs fair?

I like that idea, and although I am not fond of shortening the duration of this spell, I think it is quite a god compromise.
And to Belgian's idea, if you added the second save I would be EXTREMELY against shortening the duration, since they would just spam their potions until they rolled a 20 anyway - you would be told "do not try to escape domination", not "stop drinking this potion. Stop drinking this potion."

Domination is a very very sticky issue in nearly all RP situations regardless of the medium.

What the spell does besides all other effects, when it's full power is agreed upon, is in essence, rob someone of their character and control while it is in effect.

No one likes this. There are players who can accept this as part of the world of Amia, and handle it responsibly, but NO ONE likes to have to suck it up and do what you are commanded.

Especially demeaning things such as "put on this pink dress and dance."

From a fun and player standpoint ... it shouldn't work on PCs.

From an overall RP and spirit of DnD and Amia standpoint, it's a powerful and effective tool for mages. Limiting it to slobbering monsters removes so much of the spells function and appeal.

I guess the short of it is, it's a spell that will always be an issue.

Dominate Monster/Person and Mindblank Potions...

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