AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Terra_777 wrote:

:shock: Timestop is manytimes worse then GS. In both lameness and buggy code.

Be glad it only affects one map now. I remember back in Arelith it affected the whole server.

Halen_Van wrote:

Terra_777 wrote:

:shock: Timestop is manytimes worse then GS. In both lameness and buggy code.

Be glad it only affects one map now. I remember back in Arelith it affected the whole server.

Ouch. That's how it's technically supposed to work, but is ridiculous.
If you walk into an area in the middle of timestop you are still frozen, right?

i think itll be best if WYSIWYG applies. PvP rules dictate that you hostile before taking hostile action so SDs got to do that. GS bugs, too bad. Its far better then trying to come up with an IC explaination. Leave it to game mechanics is my vote/humble opinion.

Jas wrote:

i think itll be best if WYSIWYG applies. PvP rules dictate that you hostile before taking hostile action so SDs got to do that. GS bugs, too bad. Its far better then trying to come up with an IC explaination. Leave it to game mechanics is my vote/humble opinion.

If we left it to game mechanics, then anyone who sees me in GS can decide to get hostile RPly, make it clear, then pop a reality to kill my GS right as they hostile. Even though my caster might have considered hostility minutes ago and have vanished.

Heck, with WYSIWYG, you could follow around a caster in GS no matter how hostile they consider you.

Bug? No. Abuse? Very.

Sucks doesn't it? Bioware's mechanics just don't fit as well for RP design.

You as caster have the ability to change the other person to "hostile". If they change you back in order to gain a pvp advantage, then they're metagaming, breaking a rule, and can and should be punished by the DM's upon you rpoviding screeny evidence.

And again we come to the common response of "And is that really the type of person you want to rp with, anyway?"

Torzeng wrote:

Heck, with WYSIWYG, you could follow around a caster in GS no matter how hostile they consider you.

Is it the caster that determines who's hostile and who's not? Or does GS automatically work, in that the moment a PC *thinks* of harming the caster.. The caster goes *poof*?

The latter will be a disaster to reconcile in RP. The former would be simpler, if we give the mage the ability to determine who's hostile and who's not - which already exists mechanically via the hostile widget.

If it's the caster, then it's his responsibility to set hostile to others he'd want to be hidden from - RPing that he considers that PC a threat. WYSIWYG, simple.

Someone is follow my mage, he feels nervous and soon, he considers the tail a hostile. *Uses the hostile widget* Go GS, Run.

Quote:

If we left it to game mechanics, then anyone who sees me in GS can decide to get hostile RPly, make it clear, then pop a reality to kill my GS right as they hostile. Even though my caster might have considered hostility minutes ago and have vanished.

That's true to all PVP encounter <.<

Cori wrote:

And again we come to the common response of "And is that really the type of person you want to rp with, anyway?"

The moment your caster considered the other PC to be hostile, set them hostile.

What I really hate at the current RP of GS is when I am RPing with a bunch of people, and a mage comes in GSed and follows us.

Of course mechanically, we can see the mage and we talk about the mage that's been following us. We then confront him/her.

The mage would just say: //I'm GSed, you cant see me.
Us: //We have no hostile intent or we're not hostile
Mage: //I consider you hostile.

So should we just retcon and start over? It stinks. And it kind of feels like God Gaming on the part of the mage, because mechanically we can see him/her.
Should we just all ignore all GSed people and assume we can't see them? Does GS and blue ioun stone differ visually?

I think it's best just to retcon. Same with accidentally using someone's name when they've told you a false one.

And as far as I know it's the mage who determines who's friendly

ticket wrote:

Is it the caster that determines who's hostile and who's not? Or does GS automatically work, in that the moment a PC *thinks* of harming the caster.. The caster goes *poof*?

TormakSaber wrote:

Question: "Who determines hostility? Caster or Environment?"

Answer: "Caster, because it's the caster's spell, so they set the conditions for hostility."

Edit:
Wow... I think I've been missing that exploit of the caster following around GS to "spy" or such.

Totally screeny and report. That is sickening.

GS is far mor practical than that.

The caster has a hostile widget, just like everyone else.

If a caster in gs wants to follow you, but not be seen, they can use the widget on you. Otherwise, I'm going to see them mechanically, and therefore, I'm *GOING TO SEE THEM*.

To heck with retconning. There is just one valid time, in my opinion, that a retcon should EVER be done, and that's if you are trying to type something, and aren't fast enough to get it out before the other person does something that doesn't jive with what you typed.

ie/ You are typing " *stabs their sword through person on the ground's eye, ensuring they are dead, at least for now* ", but while you are typing, they stand up and start icly talking. Viable retcon time, in my opinion. And pretty much the only viable one.

Otherwise....can you guess what I'm gonna type? Can ya?

Here it is.....Roll with the Punches.

It's a major concept behind Roll with the Punches, that there is no retcon (only Zuul).

Cori wrote:

The caster has a hostile widget, just like everyone else.

If a caster in gs wants to follow you, but not be seen, they can use the widget on you. Otherwise, I'm going to see them mechanically, and therefore, I'm *GOING TO SEE THEM*.

But if they start of neutral, and then become hostile,doesn't the GSed person stay visible mechanically until there's an area transit?

No? As soon as they got hostile, they go poof.

TormakSaber wrote:

No? As soon as they got hostile, they go poof.

Really? Because last time I did that everyone I hostiled could still see me - had to cast it again. Must just be one of those random bugs that pop up.

wwere you in invis and GS?

herkles wrote:

wwere you in invis and GS?

Of course not, because that creates way too many headaches

Yurell wrote:

herkles wrote:

wwere you in invis and GS?

Of course not, because that creates way too many headaches

Invis + GS + Hips ftw!

Mahahaha. ^^

HellScourge wrote:

Yurell wrote:

herkles wrote:

wwere you in invis and GS?

Of course not, because that creates way too many headaches

Invis + GS + Hips ftw!

Mahahaha. ^^

In theory it sounds like the perfect circle of perfection. NWN, however, has bugs (I know you're all shocked to hear this!).

Ive got a few reasons for the WYSIWYG mentaility of course.

The default boware trueseeing is supposed to allow someone to see a mage/cleric in GS. After which they can target the fellow with a dispel/mord. However, due to the way bioware made it, default trueseeing basically made hide/ms useless. Thus, Amia changed it to compensate. The result indirectly favours the mage/cleric abit more in PvP of course. Something Im of the opinion that isnt needed.

Its actually far more abusable for the mage/cleric imo with the way the rule is set. WYSIWYG is far less messy. Not to mention it cripples the FTRs less.

Jas wrote:

The default boware trueseeing is supposed to allow someone to see a mage/cleric in GS.

I don't think so... if caster A casts GS and player B has been set to hostile, there is nothing player B can do to see caster A. Sometimes there is the Invis+GS bug that lets someone with TS see a GS+Invis'd character. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Uhm, if my character has no intention of fighting your character, but you go GS and Hostile so I can't see you, I will turn you back to Neutral. It's possible mechanically, and it's not prohibited by any rules. When I do intend to fight, I will have to set Hostile myself, or I break PvP rules. You do not get to hide from my character or spy on him, you only get to protect yourself from his immediate hostile intent. It's fairly simple, and exactly how the spell works in game.

IronAngel wrote:

Uhm, if my character has no intention of fighting your character, but you go GS and Hostile so I can't see you, I will turn you back to Neutral. It's possible mechanically, and it's not prohibited by any rules. When I do intend to fight, I will have to set Hostile myself, or I break PvP rules. You do not get to hide from my character or spy on him, you only get to protect yourself from his immediate hostile intent. It's fairly simple, and exactly how the spell works in game.

Well, then I will smack you for breaking the rules, Iron, because that is wrong, do not do it anymore. Caster determines conditions of hostility, and if he doesn't want you to see him because HE thinks your character is hostile (regardless of if you ARE), then he blips off.

Stop abusing it, Iron, and I can't believe you just pulled the "But the rules don't say I CAN'T!". Jesus.

You're wrong, actually. Unless you have access to a more detailed rule than the one published in R&L.

Quote:

The default description of Greater Sanctuary clashes with how it actually works ingame, which often confuses the roleplay surrounding Greater Sanctuary users. So please ignore the description entirely.

An Amia the spell is considered, for RP purposes, to be a save-less version of the level 1 Cleric spell Sanctuary. You are not on (or partially on) the ethereal plane; what the spell does is penetrate any magical or inate supernatural barrier to mind-affects and makes all individuals incapable of choosing to hurt the caster directly. They can still be seen, smelt and heard, but direct hostile action is impossible.

Note that this does not allow you to escape from all roleplayed conflicts: for example city guards can still detain you by other means than physical assault. Locking the city gate, for example.

Furthermore, when in battle(in game mechanics terms, set to Hostile) the spell affects your senses too, making them incapable of detecting the caster unless they have the powerful magical senses of a dragon or Umber Hulk. Even if they have such eyes, they cannot choose to hurt the caster directly.

On an intellectual level, any semi-intelligent character with experience of mages will be able to deduce a GS'd caster is probably in the general area from in-character clues like the existence of summons, or from having seen them cast it in the first place, or from having a friend or summons with 'real' True Seeing, so using area-of-effect spells/feats in PvP is not considered cheating, provided the various purely out-of-character means of locating someone have not been used.

For example, if you have set a Weapon Master to Hostile during a roleplayed conflict and then cast Greater Sanctuary, you are legitimately vulnerable to Whirlwind Attack being spammed while you buff in 'safety.' The WM has 13 INT. He will know you are around somewhere, even if some part of his brain is ignoring the fact his eyes/ears/nose are telling him exactly where that is.

Nowhere does it state that the caster determines conditions of hostility, that's all your interpretation. It's pretty much against the spirit of the rule, as well, which is to make it work like it does in practice and prevent spying or following under concealment. (Both of which are an exploit, AFAIK.)

I'll quote the bit specifically concerning this:

Quote:

Furthermore, when in battle(in game mechanics terms, set to Hostile) the spell affects your senses too, making them incapable of detecting the caster unless they have the powerful magical senses of a dragon or Umber Hulk. Even if they have such eyes, they cannot choose to hurt the caster directly.

The rule says nothing of hostile intentions. Quite plainly, it says "when in battle." Using it for concealment (that is, setting Hostile) when you're not in battle is an abuse of game mechanics, and at the very least allows the other player to set you off of Hostile.

Quote:

I can't believe you just pulled the "But the rules don't say I CAN'T!". Jesus.

This is sort of "Common sense" with the spell, I'd think. Who in their right mind would invent a spell that allows their target to set the circumstances of the caster's safety? No, the caster determines when he needs to buck up and get the hell out of dodge.

Well, I don't see it like that. The caster doesn't control the spell once it's cast, but it's an autonomic device that protects the caster when there is an actual need. That is to say, it simply does not allow any hostile actions directly towards the caster. No one determines when a situation is hostile, the spell takes care of that. It's above speculation, it just works. That is to say, it works 100% against everyone who follows server rules and sets Hostile before PvP. There shouldn't be any threat of direct attack to a mage in GS, no matter who sets Hostile, because no PvP will happen before Hostile is set, or someone's breaking server rules.

Allowing the caster to determine who's hostile makes it a spell viable for hiding and spying, which I don't think it's supposed to be. It doesn't make you invisible to the environment even mechanically, only to the person you're hostile to. Ideally, of course, the mage would activate Hostile and run away, but I many will just hang around and watch you, maybe preparing for another attack.

Why can't the caster control the spell once t's cast? I'll pull a You and say "It doesn't say I CAN'T control it once it's cast."

Doesn't the fact that you can set them to hostile and wink out of existence, or casually remove the spell without resting (i.e. press 'debuff') tell you that yo have at least some semblance of control?

Furthermore, 'in battle' is defined in the rules:

Quote:

when in battle(in game mechanics terms, set to Hostile)

While you don't get to chose what attacks affect you or not, you have the option of choosing when to become 'unseeable' or not.

That's my take on it anyway.

As it is, bioware true seeing is supposed to see through GS. Mage still cant be targetted but at least it allows for a ftr to add pressure with reality pots or mord scrolls. With amia's implementation, GS has inadvertently been beefed, something that isnt needed really.

Is there anyway for true seeing to be scripted to allow GS to be seen but not sneakers?

Nope.

I'll give you that, Tormak (and Yurell). But similarly, the opponent can turn you back to Neutral. It's possible mechanically, and it's not breaking PvP rules. (Unless you're already in PvP or immediately engaging in it, obviously.) If I'm not going to fight you, why should I let you stay hidden and buff away or spy on me, when I might just as well set you back to Neutral?

I thought the point of the rule in the first place to make it work rules-wise like it does mechanically. But if we interpret it like you suggest, using it will cause further arguments and require knowledge of Amia lore, and proper application thereof. (And intelligence isn't a defining feature of any online playerbase.) If we simply let you do with it what you will, provided you don't break PvP or other rules, there's no need for specific GS discussions. When someone questions your ability to do something with GS, you can simply say "Watch me". And that's how it should be, provided there aren't any major exploits I'm unaware of. We have to makedo with what we have, or drop the spell altogether. Making up complicated rules for its proper use is hopeless.

While I'll accept the caster's ability to hide from someone he considers hostile, I must use the same logic (of it being possible in game) to say that the opponent can consider himself not hostile, and see the caster again. All that aside, the spell is not completely or even mostly dependant on the caster's judgement, however: it works against foes you're unaware of: flanking, ambushes, even when you're blinded, dazed, asleep or (supposedly) unconscious. What you know or think is irrelevant, and the attacker's intentions are just as irrelevant: even if a person you aren't aware of targets you with a hostile spell or a weapon by accident (in which case no one has hostile intentions or considers the other hostile), Greater Sanctuary will work regardless. The spell has autonomy which allows it to protect the caster from direct attacks regardless of any other factors.

All that boils down to "Use it like it works in game", IMO. If we can't come to a simple agreement on what it means, one that most semi-intelligent people will understand intuitively, I suppose it's best to remove it or modify it. I mean, I'm willing to believe that me and Tormak are both fairly smart and we've both seen our share of Amia, but only now it comes up that we've had completely different ideas of the GS rule for all this time. It's apparently still too complicated.

:: ATTENTION!!! NECRO THREAD::

Instead of starting a new one, I decided to find an existing thread to ask about it.

Due to Amia's modifications, is True Seeing still able to see through Greater Sanctuary, your PC being the one with TS, whether set to hostile or not?

As far as I'm away TS does not give the ability to see through GS

Can you see them? No?

Then you can't see them.

Not sure what to make of your reply, Tormie.

The player in question was under GS and was not hostile. Mine was wearing TS.

Can you see them? Yes?

Then you can see them.

I can't make it any clearer than my last post and this post. Seriously.

I was not wrong about what I thought, then. I just wanted to make sure.

The player complained when I emoted my PC able to see his.

Then he should have Hostiled you.

GS only hides you when you are hostile. Otherwise it's just a bunch of pretty purple dots flying around you.

When you are hostile, nothing can see you short of dragonsight, and when not anything can see you

TormakSaber wrote:

This is sort of "Common sense" with the spell, I'd think. Who in their right mind would invent a spell that allows their target to set the circumstances of the caster's safety? No, the caster determines when he needs to buck up and get the hell out of dodge.

Me.

It's open to abuse on both sides, but the worst of the two is on the caster's side. To use GS as infinite-stealth is declaring that a person (who may never even have heard of you) is definitely hostile to you, which is dictating other player's RP and is thus a crock. Most obvious example is an assassination. As we all know, the best assassin has zero Assassin levels, but at least 26 of Sorceror. It's inutterable boolcheet to say it's fine to set the mark to Hostile upon logging in, then GS up to him half an hour later with him/her oblivious. In any competently handled hit, the killer and mark have never even met; how can he or she possibly have any hostile thoughts towards their nemesis?

Looking for a GS'd person with the intention of killing them, I'd say that definitely triggers the GS-Hostile vanishing trick. After the GS chap vanishes in a fight, there's a subjective, impossible-to-rule-on-as-DM-unless-you-were-there pause, then you as both player and character will stop thinking 'when I see ya I'm gunna kill ya' and start asking 'is it over? Has he buggered off?' which I think is a different mindset, and not GS-worthy.

When I wrote the lore, I had that in mind. Starting a fight, battling for a bit then deciding you're outgunned and GSing for the hills is fine - it's exactly what the spell's for. GSing then running to the edge of the map, then slinking back to see what they're saying about it ICly (and OOCly for that matter) and maybe attacking again if you don't like it ICly, is a pile of bollocks. To some extent this is covered by the clear-escape clause of the PvP rules, but there's ample room for lawyers there.

Unsetting Hostile when the noise from battle has died down, is not an exploit, says I. It's the GS guys's fault for still being around.

However, doing that too early is the kind of thing my Evil Uce side would do to fubar the long list of spells that are Hostile-only, and then claim to any DM called in that I was only doing it because the other guy had fannied about for ages and I wanted to see if they had run away.

Certainly doing it multiple times, by toggling from Party list would play merry hell with them, especially if summons were in the mix, so DM hammer is my whoelhearted recommendation there.

Cue Disco's post about removing GS entirely in 5... 4... 3... 2...

Spying is a hostile action. People caught spying are treated with hostility(I never recalled one being served tea after being caught).

You cannot use GS to spy upon baby unicorns.

You can use GS to spy on enemies, people you know would clearly mean you hostile intent.

Though I could stand to at least have its time length shortened.

Question: Why don't we simply change GS to the Cleric Proection Domain version of the spell?

That'd solve all the headaches honestly and yet still be powerful enough to be a sixth/8th level spell.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Spying is a hostile action. People caught spying are treated with hostility(I never recalled one being served tea after being caught).

You cannot use GS to spy upon baby unicorns.

You can use GS to spy on enemies, people you know would clearly mean you hostile intent.

Though I could stand to at least have its time length shortened.

To be hostile to some one I think you h ave to actively thinking about causing them harm, and I'd go as far as to say harm in the immediate future and not just some distant plan that will eventually harm them.

So... you can GS to spy on your enemies... you just have to get caught first so they're hostile to you. Course... if you do that you aren't going to get the information you wanted.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

You can use GS to spy on enemies, people you know would clearly mean you hostile intent.

You know it? How? GET OUT OF MY MINNNNND!

*frantically wraps head in tinfoil to block Geld's brainbeams*

To my mind, it's no so much GS, but the combo of GS + our PvP rules that suck. Your only chance to kill a powerful cleric or mage is to take them by surprise, but that is almost impossible with our current PvP rules. It's hard to offer an IC way out without making it IC clear to the character, not only the player, that you will gut them soon. Thus, you face a GSed Cleric buffing himself up to 60 ac and 60 ab, even if you really wanted to stab him in the face while he prayed a few mins ago.

What about slapping 100% spell failure while a character is in GS?

Screws the GS healbot buffbot hastebot Clerics and Wizzies(many of whom use Heal as one of the bajillion skills they don't need but can max out.)

Please don't take my fairy godmothers away...

Kjetta wrote:

To my mind, it's no so much GS, but the combo of GS + our PvP rules that suck. Your only chance to kill a powerful cleric or mage is to take them by surprise, but that is almost impossible with our current PvP rules.

That's an assassination, and you don't *have* to hire a third party to do them, although I would.

It sucks to be you, here, since you'll have to have twenty times more reason to kill Joe Player than Bob Player would, or else you'd have the anarkiddies screaming favouritism.

Or..just play as hard as I did/do with Va, ignoring the hollering.

Well, if I just spot some drow with an entourage of undeand and demon summons makeing their way through Brog. ICly, I would just charge them and gut them up! If I did that now, and said "I hired myself to assassinate you all" I would have to chew on myself.

What you have to do, is go up to them, talk to them and go "You are trespassing here, filthy drow! *Angry voice, hand resting on the hilt of his scimitar."

They go: "Smirks under his helmet* (99% of times) and then *Casts GS*

Of course, during the pretext RP, everybody swapped to their pvp rings. Sometimes, you even get a nice disco light show on the ground as different gear have different light properties.

Isn't it allowed to assassinate someone without preamble if a DM is on to supervise? Or am I mistaken?

Ach, I fail. What I had in mind was Kjetta running it past another DM, same as Joe Player, but I didn't write that down and now I look silly. DMs making that kind of decisions for themself is baaad, yus.

Athough it now occurs to me that ages ago I banned Va from Wharftown and Bendir myself, and I don't think I bothered telling anyone. Unlike most IC bans I can enforce that by reaching over and making the player press the keys that stop him walking in there.

All you can do within the rules GS (apart from assassination after the initoal insult) is play as twitchily as I do. It's not happened yet, but one of these days I'm going to kill someone for recommending me for a DC. In a Mexican standoff, any animation that's not a default NWN idle character one is good enough for me.

Kind of where Underdarkers should be feared and KOS or flee on sight rule would make sense and vice versa. Basically, it should be fair game that monster races are attacked on sight and have the right to attack on sight in return. Of course, you'll need a much larger Underdark to enforce it because it would effectively keep the divide between above and below ground enforced through pvp and players of Underdark characters would need to stay below ground much of the time.

Surface Drow would have to play amongst being called traitor on one hand and spy on the other...

Lowbies would take a real risk to get to the surface lands and vice versa. Kind of just like it is in canon FR. That's kind of what I don't get the feeling of here, Underdarkers aren't feared on the surface and surfacers aren't feared in the UD.

Greater Sanctuary refresher

Who is online