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Yurell
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 Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 7:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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We aren't ... fine:
Quote: Since the spell's called Blackstaff, and black is colour things go when you're Blind, I say CL 16+ gives it a Blind on Hit
I just want it to stay a really good spell (I don't have a vested interest in it btw).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 8:36 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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I don't want really good spells. Really good spells make the rest of the spells useless.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 8:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Dev Disco wrote: I don't want really good spells. Really good spells make the rest of the spells useless.
Agreed, as such, lower spell mantles effectiveness to the same level as flare! 
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 9:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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My 2 cents:
Just remove the Dispel. Maybe make it add keen.
Reasoning:
- It's a good enough spell even without the Dispel.
- Dispel is nice to have, but not thaaaaat useful in PvM. If it makes the CPU bleed, just cut it.
- With the current duration and Extend Spell, it's a good use for 9th level slots, which don't have that much use currently (compared to 7th level, for example).
Making it add the keen property to non-slashing weapons might be a fitting addition.
- It fits the "staff" concept.
- It's not too powerful.
- It's no on-hit effect.
Is the spell still seems to weak (I, at least, would still use it though), increase the amount of VampReg, perhaps by 50%.
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StandingBehindYou
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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Evil-Wizard wrote: 9th level slots, which don't have that much use currently (compared to 7th level, for example). If you take Still Spell or Silent Spell: Uberuce wrote: [...] what they do is let you cast instant effect spells at two spell tiers rather than one. Mostly I'm looking at Horrid Wilting and Sunburst, two deeply excellent spells which are 8th level and have no duration. In my opinion it's genuinely worth taking Still or Silent just to cast them twice as often.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Evil Wizard wrote: 18: Silent Spell (for shifting spells one level)
Old trick. 
Extended Mass Haste > Silenced/Stilled Horrid Wilting/Sunburst, imho, except maybe under special circumstances.
But that's beside the point - the buffed/changed Blackstaff has a nice nieche currently, and I think it would be good to keep its basic (current) function and use, i. e. mid- to long-time buffing of party members.
Last edited by Evil-Wizard on Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:38 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Sakkran
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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Sunburst rapes face, and doesn't get nearly as much use as it should. You just have to know -when- to use it.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Terra_777
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:51 AM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
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Everyone forget why blackstaff is cool. It give red glow!
But yeah, I'm gonna change the vampy reg progression abit.
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 10:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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To what? I'm not keen on changes made without discussion with the DMs, or the tester crew.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 11:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Terra_777 wrote: Everyone forget why blackstaff is cool. It give red glow!
But yeah, I'm gonna change the vampy reg progression abit.
Change the vampy? I thought the vampy was fine and we're just discussing what dispel should be replaced with (or whether it should be replaced at all).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Ts_
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 11:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Can Blackstaff be split between cast on self and cast on others?
If cast on self, and the current equipped weapon is a staff (or club for small players), it does something nice to the staff. But it needs, say, 21 CLs to avoid scroll abusage.
If cast on anything or anyone else, it only adds vampiric regen as it is now (which wouldn't help a mage anyway unless the mage is attacking and actually hitting something. "Hey look, I can hit this tree and it heals me! Are you done with the epic monsters yet?").
If done awesomely enough (On hit: Mord's? :), we could have mages hitting each other with staffs! They would also hit anyone else, but hey, supposedly they're godlike already ...
Regards,
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 11:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Ts_ wrote: If done awesomely enough (On hit: Mord's? :), we could have mages hitting each other with staffs! They would also hit anyone else, but hey, supposedly they're godlike already ...
Regards,
Ts
I'm quite sure it is no on-hit spells
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Terra_777
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 12:11 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
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TormakSaber wrote: To what? I'm not keen on changes made without discussion with the DMs, or the tester crew.
currently its CL/6 reg. That means it caps at +5 at CL 30. I would do this:
CL/5 capped at +5 that means it gives +5 vampy reg at CL 25 instead of 30.
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
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Ts_
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 13:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Yurell wrote: Ts_ wrote: On hit: Mord's? :) I'm quite sure it is no on-hit spells Well, that On-hit: Mord's might have been a joke, even though it would still be awesome to watch two mages hitting each other with their 15/10 AB ...
Can on-hit be anything? Like custom scripts? In that case: on-hit dispel, 10% chance? That would simply reduce the CPU load by 90% ...
Anyway, right now Blackstaff is a weapon buff for party members. In particular, it's a defensive buff that seems fairly useless when applied to the caster (just like any weapon buff). It would be nice if it gave a little extra to the caster. Temporary item property: Dispel, 3 uses? Just something a caster could actually use.
The new Blackstaff doesn't seem to add anything strategy-wise, it just makes mages even better buffers that can keep other people's hp up, which so far they couldn't.
Regards,
Ts
PS: edit, forgot bbcode
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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maughter
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 15:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Location: Wales, the UK
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give it On Hit: Blindness.
that way, it proves my old choice of Thayvian weapon as ahead of it's time 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 15:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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The vamp. regen is fine power-wise, IMO. I just lament the trademark dispel effect, but that's no reason to add a new effect that has nothing to do with fighting spell protections.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Sakkran
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 15:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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IronAngel wrote: The vamp. regen is fine power-wise, IMO. I just lament the trademark dispel effect, but that's no reason to add a new effect that has nothing to do with fighting spell protections.
I'm with Iron, on this one. While the on-hit dispel was totally sweet and trademark, it was sortakinda sickhouse broken at the same time. As it stands, it's a functional spell. It might not be your mother's Blackstaff, but I'm quite happy with it. No further action needed.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 17:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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Terra_777 wrote: TormakSaber wrote: To what? I'm not keen on changes made without discussion with the DMs, or the tester crew. currently its CL/6 reg. That means it caps at +5 at CL 30. I would do this: CL/5 capped at +5 that means it gives +5 vampy reg at CL 25 instead of 30. ...except for this ^^ _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
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FinalSoul
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 17:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Location: Ubiquitous, -0800 GMT
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One last suggestion before things get settled!
This is a stretch, and it thoroughly destroys any lore behind the spell itself, but why don't we keep Blackstaff at its current +1 vamp/5 CL and also have it apply the effects of GMW, Flame Weapon, and/or Keen Edge?
Now, you're probably thinking, "But what use is that? I already have those other three spells, I can just cast those!" The idea here is that, should the spell be changed in the suggested manner, Wizards can free up some spell slots in the lower levels, and Sorcerers can trade out the affected spells for other spells, thus diversifying their spell selection in the lower levels. That's all it would do - provide a convenience, in addition to the vamp. regen.
Just an idea.
EDIT: Oop! This does not address the potential issue with scrolls of Blackstaff, as they are CL 15. That would make the scroll far, far too powerful. Suggestions for a workaround?
_________________
"Worship me, and you shall know wealth. To guard your funds is to venerate Waukeen and to share them well seeds your future success. Call on me in trade, and I will be there. The bold find gold, the careful keep it—and the timid yield it up."
Last edited by FinalSoul on Wed, Feb 18 2009, 18:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 17:41 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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That would be really cool.
Less administration ("Who wanted keen edge again?"), less buffing time.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 19:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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FinalSoul wrote: One last suggestion before things get settled!
This is a stretch, and it thoroughly destroys any lore behind the spell itself, but why don't we keep Blackstaff at its current +1 vamp/5 CL and also have it apply the effects of GMW, Flame Weapon, and/or Keen Edge?
Now, you're probably thinking, "But what use is that? I already have those other three spells, I can just cast those!" The idea here is that, should the spell be changed in the suggested manner, Wizards can free up some spell slots in the lower levels, and Sorcerers can trade out the affected spells for other spells, thus diversifying their spell selection in the lower levels. That's all it would do - provide a convenience, in addition to the vamp. regen.
Just an idea.
EDIT: Oop! This does not address the potential issue with scrolls of Blackstaff, as they are CL 15. That would make the scroll far, far too powerful. Suggestions for a workaround?
Totally against Keen.
If you want enhance + keen on any weapon recruit a ranger.
Game Balance wise your taking a niche from a class (being able to keen any weapon via magical means) and giving it to the Wizard/Sorcs.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 19:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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MoshingChris wrote: FinalSoul wrote: One last suggestion before things get settled!
This is a stretch, and it thoroughly destroys any lore behind the spell itself, but why don't we keep Blackstaff at its current +1 vamp/5 CL and also have it apply the effects of GMW, Flame Weapon, and/or Keen Edge?
Now, you're probably thinking, "But what use is that? I already have those other three spells, I can just cast those!" The idea here is that, should the spell be changed in the suggested manner, Wizards can free up some spell slots in the lower levels, and Sorcerers can trade out the affected spells for other spells, thus diversifying their spell selection in the lower levels. That's all it would do - provide a convenience, in addition to the vamp. regen.
Just an idea.
EDIT: Oop! This does not address the potential issue with scrolls of Blackstaff, as they are CL 15. That would make the scroll far, far too powerful. Suggestions for a workaround? Totally against Keen. If you want enhance + keen on any weapon recruit a ranger. Game Balance wise your taking a niche from a class (being able to keen any weapon via magical means) and giving it to the Wizard/Sorcs. Ah ha too late!
Caster level: bard 3; sorcerer/wizard 3
Innate level: 3
School: transmutation
Descriptor: weapon enchantment
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: creature or slashing weapon
Duration: 10 minutes / level
Save: none
Spell resistance: no
Description: Adds the keen property to the targeted slashing melee weapon, increasing its critical threat range.
We already have it, +1 for the mages. *does a dance* The keen "class" balance argument is nose-dived, into a creek, with cluckzillas on all sides. _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
Last edited by Azrael on Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 19:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Keen Edge has the limitation of only working on slashing weapons. Somewhere above it was suggested the spell Keened any weapon, though that wasn't the quoted suggestion. The latter would obviously be a bad idea, for the reasons mentioned.
I guess FinalSoul's suggestion has some merit. GMW+Vamp Regen on the spell, perhaps.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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IronAngel wrote: Keen Edge has the limitation of only working on slashing weapons. Somewhere above it was suggested the spell Keened any weapon, though that wasn't the quoted suggestion. The latter would obviously be a bad idea, for the reasons mentioned.
I guess FinalSoul's suggestion has some merit. GMW+Vamp Regen on the spell, perhaps.
*sage nod* due to freeing up lower level spell slots. _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Does Bladethirst work on non-shlashing weapons on Amia? It doesn't normally, and the spell changes page doesn't mention a change to that, either.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Evil-Wizard wrote: Does Bladethirst work on non-shlashing weapons on Amia? It doesn't normally, and the spell changes page doesn't mention a change to that, either.
It grants both enhancement bonus and keen on any and all melee weapons it's used on. The latter isn't possible by any other means, save for mythalling, so it's certainly a special ranger niche that must be preserved. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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IronAngel wrote: Evil-Wizard wrote: Does Bladethirst work on non-shlashing weapons on Amia? It doesn't normally, and the spell changes page doesn't mention a change to that, either. It grants both enhancement bonus and keen on any and all melee weapons it's used on. The latter isn't possible by any other means, save for mythalling, so it's certainly a special ranger niche that must be preserved. Slashing weapons arn't 'that' rare...*cough* but if it's seen as a 'special ranger niche' ...oook. *thinks of long-swords*
yay rangers? (i think their underpowered imho) ...as a stand alone class.
Buuuut if it's really that sacred, we can move on to something else.
Edit:
* kukris, sickles, and kamas;
* axes;
* whips;
* katanas, and scimitars;
* bastard swords, longswords, and greatswords;
* double axes, and two-bladed swords; and
* creature bite items. _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
Last edited by Azrael on Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:30 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:28 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Should be included in the spell changes text, maybe. Neither name nor spell description hint at it being "Clubthirst"; if I had encountered the effect, I would have believed it to be a bug. Some clarification might be in order.
As for the effect being restricted to rangers currently... well, I don't know if putting keen on blunt/piercing weapons is really much of a distinguishing factor of the ranger class (esp. if undocumented). Enchanting clubs/daggers, well, that's not something I'd associate with rangers.
If rangers loose their niche by loosing exclusivity on granting the impact property, oh well, than they are a sucky class anyhow.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, Keen Edge isn't supposed to work on anything but slashing weapons. Mages aren't weak, and therefore there's no reason to give them yet more powerful tools, such as keening weapons that have always been unkeenable by default. Rangers were given a modified Bladethirst as something viable and nice. They are an underwhelming class and they were given a unique boost, like many other classes. (Barbarian rages being another good example.) And whoever thinks it's not great to save power slots on your rapier or heavy flail by applying Keen and +5 yourself doesn't understand much. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:41 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Yeah, yeah, we know nothing. Put it in the sidebar then, so that all may know about the unique boost to flail and rapier wielding rangers. 
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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Evil-Wizard wrote: Yeah, yeah, we know nothing. Put it in the sidebar then, so that all may know about the unique boost to flail and rapier wielding rangers. I mayhaps think he's confusing ranger promoting feelings and ideals with validity of the actual usefulness of keen on non-slashing weapons to be something extravagant, yes it's 'great'...but if yea want to promote rangers, it's already been agreed their underpowered, so formulate a way to give them a boost? (ontop of their already pre-existing abilities)
...but "No mages can't have that ability on anything regardless of its power level whatsoever cause it's supposed to be rare or special" ...means something like "You can play rangers their not totally useless, cause they have special abilities" ...when it's not all 'that' useful...
..so then make em' more useful! xD
..then can we talk about having keen for the 8th lvl spell? _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
Last edited by Azrael on Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 20:53 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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I read some of the suggestions on this topic and laughed heartily. I personally thought the dispel wasnt that broken and Ive noticed no lag on the server at all. You know what would be REALLLLLLLLLLLLY cool
get this....
*pauses*
Make it usable on wizards staves ONLY...thats right, I said only. And make it kick ass for the wizard - it is an 8th level spell anyway. Im against the way every wizard spell is just geared towards buffing the fighter classes. Fighter classes are already powerful enough as it is. Whats the point of making it add GMW? Thats what GMW is for! We want more spell variety, not different ways of casting the same spell!
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Phantom-D
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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Any weapon buff for a wizard is inherently underpowered in combat purposes because wizards have low AB? Maybe some tenser transformation thing could make it work though...
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Fighter classes are already powerful enough as it is.
Before anybody else can do it:
MAG3Z AR3 T00 P0W3RFUL CAUSE TH3Y CAN S0L0 ABY$$!!11 BUFF FIT0RZ AND D3L3T3 ALL MAG3Z!
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Phantom-D wrote: Any weapon buff for a wizard is inherently underpowered in combat purposes because wizards have low AB? Maybe some tenser transformation thing could make it work though...
Thats true, thats why its gotta kick ass for when it does hit. I KNOW that GMW isnt for wizards really. But blackstaff was initially intended for wiz anyway. Wizards can get a reasonably high AB anyway, enough to hit most things albeit notreliably. Make it like a high DC stun or something...at least you can run away once they're stunned!
High DC stun and maybe a lil magic damage. Stave pwnage!
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Phantom-D wrote: Any weapon buff for a wizard is inherently underpowered in combat purposes because wizards have low AB? Maybe some tenser transformation thing could make it work though... Thats true, thats why its gotta kick ass for when it does hit. I KNOW that GMW isnt for wizards really. But blackstaff was initially intended for wiz anyway. Wizards can get a reasonably high AB anyway, enough to hit most things albeit notreliably. Make it like a high DC stun or something...at least you can run away once they're stunned! High DC stun and maybe a lil magic damage. Stave pwnage! Oh dear, that might give me a reason to use staffs instead of two +2 con daggers *gasp* _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Make it usable on wizards staves ONLY...thats right, I said only. And make it kick ass for the wizard - it is an 8th level spell anyway. Im against the way every wizard spell is just geared towards buffing the fighter classes. Fighter classes are already powerful enough as it is. Whats the point of making it add GMW? Thats what GMW is for! We want more spell variety, not different ways of casting the same spell!
If I were the mage, I know that at least I would just ignore it, then, and go spamming damage spells. If I wanted to fight, I'd be smacking them with Horrid Wilting not my staff with basically no hope of hitting.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Sakkran
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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Seriously. If you're a mage capable of casting Blackstaff, of all things, but you're hitting things yourself, you'd either be some sort of wierd Eldritch Knight/Spellsword gish, or you're fighting another mage, and you've both run out of mojo to sling.
In short, if you're a pureclass Wizard/Sorc, and you're hitting things... YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 21:59 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Beats having yet another weapon buff for fighter types...but meh.
Weird eldritch knight/spellsword combo. Youd be surprised just how common that is!
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Beats having yet another weapon buff for fighter types...but meh.
Weird eldritch knight/spellsword combo. Youd be surprised just how common that is!
On top of 25 sorc/wiz to get the full benefits? Most mages have abysmal AB, so it's only benefiting a specialised niche.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Sakkran
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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No, I wouldn't. I've seen more than a few in my time.
As for 'another buff for those fighter types' is concerned... You do realize that the fighter-type's role in a party is to keep the squishy mages alive, yes? And in order to do that effectively, they need the right tool for the job- Buffs.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Azrael
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Some planet known as Earth
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Sakkran wrote: Seriously. If you're a mage capable of casting Blackstaff, of all things, but you're hitting things yourself, you'd either be some sort of wierd Eldritch Knight/Spellsword gish, or you're fighting another mage, and you've both run out of mojo to sling.
In short, if you're a pureclass Wizard/Sorc, and you're hitting things... YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
Interesting point..because the blackstaff was for mages when their in spell mantels and ran out of mords, when running low on those they could blackstaff and wack eachother with it, instead of a staring competition, without dispel the spell becomes just another buff for the caster's party and summons and not really for the mage themselves.
I think this was previously brought up, but its now completely changed how I view the spell, it's no longer 'blackstaff' we may as well invent a new name for it because it's core purpose is shifted.
Up with the vamp regen, with dispel gone it's not blackstaff it's 'super greater red magic life sucking weapon spell'.
or w/e.
The core purpose of the spell is no more...we could do almost anything with this spell...*summons a invis npc with a staff like a weaker version of bbod* if we felt like it.
Tis a wild card, and vamp regen is the current usefulness.
(at least the for self-cast mage debate can come to an end) ...unless it's made into a huge floating staff polymorph spell *imagines a fully buffed giantic staff flaoting around killing stuff* lol _________________ Lalelilolu wrote: *Po-tee-weet?* Night is just another day without light.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:07 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Azrael wrote: Sakkran wrote: <snip> Interesting point..because the blackstaff was for mages when their in spell mantels and ran out of mords, when running low on those they could blackstaff and wack eachother with it, instead of a staring competition, without dispel the spell becomes just another buff for the caster's party and summons and not really for the mage themselves. I think this was previously brought up, but its now completely changed how I view the spell, it's no longer 'blackstaff' we may as well invent a new name for it because it's core purpose is shifted. Up with the vamp regen, with dispel gone it's not blackstaff it's 'super greater red magic life sucking weapon spell'. or w/e. The core purpose of the spell is no more...we could do almost anything with this spell...*summons a invis npc with a staff like a weaker version of bbod* if we felt like it. Tis a wild card, and vamp regen is the current usefulness. (at least the for self-cast mage debate can come to an end) ...unless it's made into a huge floating staff polymorph spell ;) *imagines a fully buffed giantic staff flaoting around killing stuff* lol But the point is, the dispel is gone - would you still use it in close combat if you were a mage? I know I wouldn't, and thus IMO it really does need to be cast on other people.
It would be nice to free up some of those GMW slots .. but can you put the progression at +1/ 5 levels too(or even per 4), so that way we don't have scroll abusing?
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Nourm
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:27 PM |
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Joined: 11 Feb 2009
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Okay.
Blackstaff is a spell used by Wizards and scroll users, no sane sorcerer will sacrifice a Level 8 spell slot for this. The first question we're asking ourselves is: "Do Wizards and scroll users need a significant buff to a spell that's already buffed?"
No.
You can make the arguement the spell is useless in its original form. It does not hold because there are so many useless spells in NWN that if you were to go on a mission to make them all viable you'd be changing the entire game.
Does Blackstaff need the dispell that will, at best, manage to take off a Mage's Armor while making hundreds of calculations to determine whether said Mage's Armor should be dispelled?
No.
I don't even know why the spell has been buffed in the first place; there are so many better areas for improvement when it comes to spell and class balance on the server. The fact that people think it should give GMW/Keen/Flame Weapon as well is just completely bewildering.
Why don't we use the thread for better arguements like: "Why do mages cast outrageously overpowered spells such as Timestop with the only drawback being a material fee in an infinitely inflated economy?" Or: "Why is the cleric's Divine Power still in its original form, completely negating any drawback of the Cleric not being a primary BAB class?".
I'm kind of changing subject I guess.
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Really Evil Pigeon
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:27 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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I vote blind on hit to make va's daggers completely unneeded to settle my jealous and thinking about actually spending dc's on an item. and have scrolls readly avalible >.> *whistles innocently*
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 22:47 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Sakkran wrote: No, I wouldn't. I've seen more than a few in my time.
As for 'another buff for those fighter types' is concerned... You do realize that the fighter-type's role in a party is to keep the squishy mages alive, yes? And in order to do that effectively, they need the right tool for the job- Buffs.
Sarcasm my dear boy
But thats just it. The fighter doesnt truely need those buffs and he certainly doesnt need anymore than he already has. He really doesnt.Have you seen how many buffs are available as potions or on items? Half the clerics spell list and quite a few from the mages spellbook too. My half orc barb crits for so much damage I chop through premonition like a hot knife through butter. I really dont NEED a mage. And I have so many hit points I only really die PVM when im not paying attention. Making it yet another buff for a fighters is IMO wasting the spell. True i may need party members to solo the abyss but id just as well have another weapon master or whatever along.
Mass haste is useful though...then again, haste is so easy to come by anyway. I say what the hell. Just make mages buff bots and make no pretence about it all.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 18 2009, 23:40 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Nourm wrote: Why don't we use the thread for better arguements like: "Why do mages cast outrageously overpowered spells such as Timestop with the only drawback being a material fee in an infinitely inflated economy?" Or: "Why is the cleric's Divine Power still in its original form, completely negating any drawback of the Cleric not being a primary BAB class?".
One word. Dev crit. Well, thatstwo but nevermind...Im using a greataxe with an 18 -20 threat range and even I think its broken AS im tearing the spawns a new one. Dev >>>> Time stop. I wish tensers worked like divine power.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Feb 19 2009, 0:51 AM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Evil-Wizard wrote: Yeah, yeah, we know nothing. Put it in the sidebar then, so that all may know about the unique boost to flail and rapier wielding rangers. 
Pretty much says it all.
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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Nourm
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Posted: Thu, Feb 19 2009, 2:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2009
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Nourm wrote: Why don't we use the thread for better arguements like: "Why do mages cast outrageously overpowered spells such as Timestop with the only drawback being a material fee in an infinitely inflated economy?" Or: "Why is the cleric's Divine Power still in its original form, completely negating any drawback of the Cleric not being a primary BAB class?".
One word. Dev crit. Well, thatstwo but nevermind...Im using a greataxe with an 18 -20 threat range and even I think its broken AS im tearing the spawns a new one. Dev >>>> Time stop. I wish tensers worked like divine power. While it's true that when it comes to monster killing Dev Crit is a far more efficient weapon than Time Stop, I was not really talking about overall PvM efficiency. In PVP, Dev Crit does not play a serious role versus half-decent builds and itemisation. My problem with the Time Stop thing is that as far as I'm aware it has no saves whatsoever, and the major drawback versus using it is supposed to be the aformentioned gold cost. That drawback is completely useless.
Original Divine Power (which is what Amia uses) basically makes it so that there is absolutely no non-cleric tank that can be more effective than a cleric. No matter how you try and look at it, it's just fact. And there is really no reason why it should be this way.
I know that this isn't Bastions of War or anything, but honestly it truly helps the RP feeling and your own esteem of your character when you are not hindered by game mechanics to always be inferior. I really felt this when I tested *many* builds in the Amian setting and I was not able to make any non-cleric tank compareble to good cleric builds.
And well, Time Stop is just silly. I mean come on, let's all admit this. It's silly.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Feb 19 2009, 3:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Nourm wrote: Blackdragon12121 wrote: Nourm wrote: Why don't we use the thread for better arguements like: "Why do mages cast outrageously overpowered spells such as Timestop with the only drawback being a material fee in an infinitely inflated economy?" Or: "Why is the cleric's Divine Power still in its original form, completely negating any drawback of the Cleric not being a primary BAB class?".
One word. Dev crit. Well, thatstwo but nevermind...Im using a greataxe with an 18 -20 threat range and even I think its broken AS im tearing the spawns a new one. Dev >>>> Time stop. I wish tensers worked like divine power. While it's true that when it comes to monster killing Dev Crit is a far more efficient weapon than Time Stop, I was not really talking about overall PvM efficiency. In PVP, Dev Crit does not play a serious role versus half-decent builds and itemisation. My problem with the Time Stop thing is that as far as I'm aware it has no saves whatsoever, and the major drawback versus using it is supposed to be the aformentioned gold cost. That drawback is completely useless. Original Divine Power (which is what Amia uses) basically makes it so that there is absolutely no non-cleric tank that can be more effective than a cleric. No matter how you try and look at it, it's just fact. And there is really no reason why it should be this way. I know that this isn't Bastions of War or anything, but honestly it truly helps the RP feeling and your own esteem of your character when you are not hindered by game mechanics to always be inferior. I really felt this when I tested *many* builds in the Amian setting and I was not able to make any non-cleric tank compareble to good cleric builds. And well, Time Stop is just silly. I mean come on, let's all admit this. It's silly. Dev Crit is still extremely useful - most people prefer not to wearing their fort gear 24/7 on the off-chance they come across a dev-critter.
And what's wrong with timestop. For a few seconds the caster goes ludicrously quickly, and they have to pay every time they do it.
And as far as clerics go, clerics make awesome tanks.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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