AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

In regards to the Kelly 'titles' thing; It was actually because of a (poorly maintained) rule;

You can freely have a faction tag in your name, however, it -cannot- denote rank. Check out the rules in Rules & Lore / Creating your Character to read it yourself. It's scary.

Personally, the responses in this thread are slowly starting to make me think it was a bad idea, period; Drannok sort of illustrating why, and many responses in this thread also demonstrating it.

Wilturn is part of amiaB, its player base is often smaller no matter how many things are brought across from Amia A to make it the server players choose to log into first. Avadon has played on amia B religiously, he took the initiative to make wilturn a RP hub like the other cities of Cordor. Months of work went into him being recognized, the first stepping stones of his quest( to which he did not know the end of) was available to all players. He took the time to get involved, he unlike others succeeded and went from strength to strength.

I myself have tried something similar in the past, it is hard and the smallest trip can ruin months of work., Avadons achievements are based solely on his own. It has been stated many times before players who show consistently good role play will be looked at by more DM’s. The fact wilturn is smaller than any other settlement makes it easier, the fact the player base on B makes it slightly easier. But it is still a long time commitment with constant roleplay with various DM’s.

Most players here who think others deserve titles do not see all there role play, I trust the DM team to make unbiased decisions on players because they know more about players than we do. They see what we do not see, they deal with complaints that we never hear of.

Furthermore, the scale of diplomatic relations for cities such as khol, Cordor and winya is far more than that of wilturn. I would expect for anyone to receive titles from such cities to put in far more effort with far more consistency.

Wilturn does not have a PC faction, where plots where thrown at a group of players via request or simply because of there association with a town or city. He rp’d with PC and NPC alike, of his own accord and as such was recognized. Unlike a faction member rising in ranks through faction RP to gain a faction title.

I will admit there are possible more candidates for titles, but as was stated this was done with much thought and as a test to the player base for things like the past, such as council members in Cordor etc. If you don’t sit here in this topic complaining we might see more and Amia may become more enjoyable than it already is. I see this is a goal and a reward, far better than dream coins. Maybe I am wrong, but I think a lot of you should see it this way too.

I don't think the players who like to cry favorism are the ones that should be catered to. If people can't handle that some players have earned certain titles, I'd say it's just too bad for them.

I can see why some would say the kellies are going against the rules, and I do think that if titles are to be earned, it should go for them aswell. However, I don't see how they, each and every one of the kellies I've played with, haven't earned their titles.

I didn't even realise that they were titles.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:27 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Put quite simply: IMO The benefits of this title system can far exceed the risk of favoritism, it just has to be done right, it's putting more power in the hands of the DM's, I just hope they know exactly what to do with it, and so far so good it seems.

It's like the issue of having only standard subraces vs having dm approved subraces, yea just gotta hope they treat everyone the same, unbiasedly.

The benefits? This is exactly what I don't understand; What benefits?

The difference is that PC Factions and their titles are purely managed by the PCs. If these titles permitted a PC to have sway over NPCs; It'd be controlling of NPCs without DM Supervision.

By having the titles as a 'DM Reward', so to speak, we keep people like... say... amiaman123 from having valid control / influence over NPCs, just because he rose up in a PC Faction.

So, yes; PC Factions are ranked a little lower than DM Titles currenty

Before this, no PC has influence over NPCs, excluding those they hold officially recognized rank over (IE; PC Guard Captains have influence over NPC Guards, etc). Period. Outside of that, the NPCs would ignore you completely unless actively controlled by a DM.

However, now, we're taking a step away from that and experimenting with Avadon. Giving a player the responsibility to have direct effect and interaction with the 'World' (IE; Wiltun's NPCs, etc) without consistent over-shoulder watching, as well as also giving us a means of seeing how well the playerbase can handle authority being in the hands of a player. (The main response I'm watching here isn't how the person uses the power; but how people react to people having a power they don't)

Mattering on how it works out (Both for those involved; and for the peanut gallery), it might end up spreading out a bit more within reason, allowing PCs who have earned it to have that sort of influence. It's a test, if you will, for the entire playerbase. If it works out, we'll consider it for future; if it doesn't, no harm no foul.

Honestly, the current watch-over has been rather disappointing.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

The benefits? This is exactly what I don't understand; What benefits?

Just for starters, Political RP among factions increases and players can finally stop guessing 'who's really in charge' (for those not on the forums)

Players also have a sense of advancement, achievement that they actually moved up in rank or made a lasting change/difference in the world that is Amia.

They also get to wave their faction around oocly, which increases ooc interest in it.

Uniform confusion is put to rest, for example : If someone is wearing red and white you don't flip a coin and hope it's a Salandran, you 'know' those are Salandran robes.

DM's can give their memory a break and stop memorizing constantly who is who and and what they do or are supposed to do as a having a "insert faction name/title", easier for them to make the rp flow knowing what they've got to work with, instead of 'random adventurer number 1,2,3, and 4'

Edit:

WonWon wrote:

The difference is that PC Factions and their titles are purely managed by the PCs. If these titles permitted a PC to have sway over NPCs; It'd be controlling of NPCs without DM Supervision.

If a PC has risen to a position of power above the usual guards/NPC's they 'should' have a reasonable degree of IC power over them, just because they stand there like statues doesn't mean they arn't lower in rank to the PC who has RP'd and risen up in faction ranks. Those NPC's of the faction are there 'for' the faction, are 'in' the faction and abide by the factions ranks and rules just the same as a PC does, ICly.

If the DM can see 'who is what rank' because it's listed in the PC's name they can then properly roleplay the guards/other NPC's of the faction, based on the current rank of the current NPC they are controlling.

Lemme give this a shot.

1.) Six IRL years of rp towards total devotion towards Mystra

2.) Gathered an unprecidented amount of PC mages to actually work together.

3.) Getting the NPC Archmage Thoramind to step down taking the Grove of the Archmage and bringing it under the title Grove of Mystra.

4.) Greating a tower and Guild in Mystra's name.

5.) Having had authority to order npcs within the tower.

6.) Defending the Guild from dire threats on all scales from demonic to Sharran, in the name of Mystra.

7.) Often contacted by Mystra controlled by DM's, and given guiding advice, prophetic dreams, but never a hand-out.

I'm applying for Chosen of Mystra in Halen's tag. Limited in scope, but very important in where it is relevant.

Ahh! We're now at the point where we get a new meaning of the phrase "post order".

Halen, do see the lore topic on what exactly Chosen of Mystra are. >_<

TormakSaber wrote:

I think you're all putting a wee bit too much emphasis on a floating nametag, if I may be so bold.

This.

He's getting really refined... I must say it's rather disturbing.

Last edited by Lally on Sat, Mar 14 2009, 15:29 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Are titles really that important? I mean...I'm not trying to be snarky but from what I observed, Avadon worked closely with Yoss, spent 90% of his time on B and in service to the Wilton Lord. Due to that, he gets to call himself Sir. Misty, being linked to mister Avadon, is Lady.

Maybe I'm noobish in this area, but what's the big deal? What's in a name? As I see it, all it does is hold sway with and NPC Lord, and maybe some diplomatic sway in Cordor or Kohlingen, right? Does it change the way your PC deals with him? Prolly not.

If Avadon walked around all of Amia shoving his name in people's faces, sure that'd be annoying. I haven't seen that of him.

This seems like a really severe case of keeping up with the Jones's, and kind of confusing because all it does is add a title to a floaty name above your head. You don't get a new car, you don't get a plaque...so what's the attraction?

I can see why it'd be frustrating if you really want your charrie to have a title, but no where did I see it written "Even if you work with a DM closely for months, you can't have a title unless we like you."

I dunno...I'm addicted to the flawed and abnormal..the dregs..the diamond in the rough types. Maybe some people are similarly addicted to royalty.

So really..what's in a name?

*I also have a hard time believing the DM in question could be seriously accused of favoritism since he clearly wishes to crush us all.

Hurray for self-promotion!

Can I mention that everything you've listed as Halen's achievements have involves "The Guild"? Most of those things don't even matter to anyone else. Commoners, honestly, couldn't really care less about magic. They don't use magic to grow their crops, or mend their wounded, or build their houses, or anything like that. It's something that's not relevant to their lives, and so save for the adventuring populous (which consists of PCs!), the population of Amia could probably care less whether or not Halen started "The Guild" or not, or even that he's a Chosen of Mystra (if they even understand what that means, let alone the importance of it). He doesn't play a role in their lives.

Here, let me give a similiar, real life example. It's nothing like someone who created a magic tower, but he's still damned famous in some places. You Brits all know the comedian Russel Brand, of course. I don't know about any other rest of you. Anyway, up until recently, when he had a special here in the US, no one knew about him. He could have been walking down the street, some Englishman would say, "'Ey wot! 'A's Russa Brandt! 'ip 'ip! Cheerio!" and everyone else would just look over, sort of go, "Huh..." and continue on.

What's the got to do with Halen, you ask? Quite a bit, in fact. Russel Brand is famous in England because he affects people there. His jokes are mostly for British people, and he hasn't really shown his face in America. Thus, people their love him. However, in America, where very few people have heard of him, and the people who have haven't seen much of him, he doesn't matter. He's just a guy.

Britons would probably kill themselves if David Beckham died, but very few people in the US would even blink, because we don't care about him (Because he plays soccer!).

This becomes even more accurate when you apply it to, say, the social elites. Not movie stars, or anything, but the big born-into-money people. One particular person there might be incredibly important to everyone else in that group, but people not in the group might not care at all.

Your problem here, Halen, is that you're assuming that because your character has done a lot of things for the mages of the island, that the common people respect him, even if he hasn't really done anything that's affected them.

What Halen's done for the common man:

1.) Raised money for Cordor's poor populace through Bachelor auctions, back in the day of yore.

2.) Was the first to start clearing the rubble away when Cordor got shattered by the druids, so that reconstruction could begin. Lots of people watching caught on and started clearing the rubble too.

3.) Through the guild, directed 1 million gold towards rebuilding South Cordor after the series of explosions that plagued it.

4.) Through the guild directed 2 million gold towards the reconstruction of Winya after the drow burned it.

5.) Through the guild continued to approve charity projects to better the life of the average south cordorian citizen.

6.) Had designed anti-summons wands for the gaurds to use, to help Cordorian guards better enforce the laws against potentially dangerous summons. I believe these are no longer in use, however, the had been at one time.

But that is ultimately beside the point. I'm not asking for the title so that Cordorian commoners would respect him. I'm asking for the title to reflect all the effort that has gone into him being a champion for all causes Mystran.

That leaves the question why anyone outside of Wiltun would care about a knight from a small fort off the island. That title seems just as local as the ones proposed.

And if it's just a floaty name with no significance as some try to say, why restrict them?

Halen, what do you actually suggest that... Halen's title should be?

I said it earlier, Chosen of Mystra. He's already recognized as one through IC events in his history. And it has caused reactions to him as it should by npc's and pc's alike. I'm just asking it to be put in his name-tag. The common man? They might have heard about him, but there isn't much reason to do anything special for him. Mystran faithful? Tend to take his words with a lot of weight. The tag would reflect all the effort put into making him who is he today. Nothing else really since he already has the same benefits otherwise. It's just an outward reflection of the accomplishment, rather than the accomplishment itself.

Much like Avalon's tag.

Carter wrote:

Can I mention that everything you've listed as Halen's achievements have involves "The Guild"?

Here, let me give a similiar, real life example. It's nothing like someone who created a magic tower, but he's still damned famous in some places.

Another 'real life' example along these lines; Conan, snakes, towers... people know, they're just scared to talk about it.

As far as the titles debate goes, I find those ideally but not really OOC titles annoying if there is no apparent reason. For example, a PC with the War Knight moniker who is not dressed all in red is galling.

This then would seem to present a simple solution; if you wish to carry a floating title that has not been awarded by a DM, then you are obliged to wear the obvious uniform of the group or faction that this title is beholden to at all times.

This doesn't mean you have 'symbol on armor; Lore DC: a million billion or you know nothing fool' in you character profile but rather that you wear the EXACT same colours and ALMOST exact same armor of others from that group or faction AT ALL TIMES.

If you want to wear the title; the WEAR THE TITLE.

Chosen of Mystra isn't quite on par with having a noble title.

It sure isn't, and thus they don't command the same respects. They are different as they should be.

What I meant, is that being Chosen of any god isn't something any character on Amia has or likely will accomplish.

WonWon wrote:

Halen (the PC) is in the same boat. Sure, he's done lots, but being the Chosen of Mystra on an isle such as Amia doesn't count a whole lot. He's the headmaster of a guild with alot of respect aimed towards him, surely, but his presence in, for example, Wharftown isn't going to truly spur a response from the world. NPCs aren't going to go "Oh my god, That's Headmaster Halen!" and purposefully react.

Ah, but he has.

Oh. That's.... interesting.

Again, the point I'm making is not to be considered the Chosen of Mystra, which I think would be cheapened by asking for it rather than earning it, but rather to have it in his title to reflect the accomplishment he earned, I think around four years ago? No one can say there hasn't been a tremendous amount of effort to live up to that standard, on Halen's part.

Mayhaps players are looking at it from a wrong perspective.

We as PC's put more value on PC's than NPCs put on PC's I think.

To us they can appear as marionettes hanging on stage, waiting for someone to pull their strings, however they are people too. I assume if you start treating them like actual beings they might value you more.

Zante wrote:

What I would suggest is to make the requirements to get a title easier to meet, and not require prolonged one on one npc interaction.

"Daren Sten, Inquisitor of the Eternal Order." "Sir Hector Tormigan of the Triadic Knights" - examples of titles that should hold as much, if not more weight than Sir Avadon of Wiltun, and I can think of many more. They would be recognizable, hold some power in the order and kohlingen respectively, I think npcs would react to them accordingly.

How else should these people go about earning a title than retroactively, seeing they already hold a position of power and respect? They can't go an sugarcoat the justicar to grand them a title they already have.

Note that there currently are not any official requirements that can be made either easier or harder. What I did was, to my mind, just one way it could happen, and the way Avadon did it was through consistent action on his part to serve the needs of an NPC who had the authority to grant him a title. Amongst a few other things that regardless made him noteworthy.

There are other means of distinguishment. As for earning titles retroactively, they shouldn't earn them retroactively. They should just continue to earn them. If it is seen as worthwhile by the DMs and not just in the mind of the player, it will be rewarded with a title.

Which, btw, is the same criteria as a DC.

Aye. We haven't particularly discussed the criteria of gaining a title to any great detail. So do feel free to voice your opinions on what, exactly, would be good prerequisites.

Join the Eternal Order, they all have huge titles.

The Chosen of Mystra are the stuff of legends. Khelben Blackstaff who was one of the rulers of Waterdeep, Elminster who needs no introduction either, the Seven Sisters, all of them immortal offspring of Mystra and one of them the ruler of Silverymoon. Mystra's Chosen are all immune to disease and poison. Hardy as warriors and casting spells effortlessly. They further her goals and protect the Weave on a global scale.

I don't wanna be mean, but that's kinda lofty for a backwater island.

Working with another Chosen of Mystra, Halen and the Guild saved the Weave from being frozen into crystals entirely and used to only allow Thayvians to cast arcane magics.

Yes, a lofty goal, but one he's already been acknowledged to have attained. Again, this is more about putting the title there in his name, not just in his history.

Focus people, focus.

This is just an example, btw.

Let's say we like our events slightly less epic these days.

Does that mean that the epic heros should be ignored for the deeds they have accomplished? That the only real rewards go to the paper-boys of Amia? Brown-nosing to a noble has more meaning than saving the world?

I dunno. I am not the one stamping titles on people. My comment is merely an observation. No clue what title I'd give world saver #156, to be honest.

However, I (personal opinion) do think it's nice that we're slowly changing towards a less strict way of dealing with the server, and you (plural) shouldn't be so damn anal about this.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.

People will kill you if you take that as a name. Imagine what happens to your chat screen and logs...

I'm all for it becoming less strict, which is why I have a hard time getting the notion that you can't have a title from already accomplished exploits.

Last time I checked we banned people for exploits?

Ouch! My sense of humour just suicided.

I think it killed this thread with it. >.>

I'm going to regret this flak storm forever, but I have to say it.

He can't be a Chosen of Mystra.

Not because of a title rule, but because it's supermassivly out of control unbalanced in every way feasibly imaginable.

Without the powers bestowed upon the Chosen of Mystra, he's lieing about that title. With them, he's invincible.

One spell of every circle he's naturally immune too (that he chooses). Silver fire. Immunity to aging disease, disintegration, and poison. No need to sleep. Permanant line of sight detect magic, and +10 to his constitution.

He can be a Champion of Mystra, he can be a devote follower of her and Headmaster of the tower, and many other titles he's known by. But he can't be a Chosen of Mystra. It's just too epic.

Dev Disco wrote:

Last time I checked we banned people for exploits?

Ouch! My sense of humour just suicided.

Hrrn. Do chickens make Yuck-Yucks?..

Or are they Clyuck-Clyucks?.. I'm wondering now.

No flak storm, no cannons, no anger. I don't even own the book that has the class or prestige class in it.

That's just how he's been known for a long long time. That's how Mystra's refered to him, and how epic he's come to be known for. It's not something I knew would have entitled him to more than he already had. It's just what the rp developed to, through various events, and how I continue to rp him.

Drannok wrote:

But he can't be a Chosen of Mystra. It's just too epic.

Well... special races/stuff like that get you nothing on Amia bonus-wise on your stat sheet. Even says so in the Special PC request form.

Halen is grandfathered anyways.. there were/are -old- pc's which were grandfathered races which will never be seen again on Amia anyway, or hiiiiighly unlikely.

Of those a Lich, three Dragons, a Dracolich, and a handful of Devils.. half celestial.. that I can recall having met. Some of which are still around.

It's a footnote in the FR campaign setting book.

Probably easy to miss, as it is not designed for player characters to ever get the powers. It's actually a title and powers just slapped onto an existing being mechanically. No PrC, no level adjustment. Just BAM: This being is now a demi-god, essentialy, so sayth Mystra.

I have no doubts the RP to him being a Chosen of Mystra was, well, epic and probably he was intended to be such. I think it was an honest mistake, not understanding what it meant, and the downside is for a character such as, Drannok, for instance, who is a devoted Sorcerer of Mystra, and has stacked Lore,and knows who and what the chosen are, he'd be offended if he thought Halen was using the title without anything to show for it.

I actually think, if Halen really did become a chosen of mystra, despite what all the DMs would think about giving him all those powers, they should man up and -do it-. Otherwise you have given him a false title in legitamte RP that will cause him problems later on IC.

I don't think that'd fly, even with a pair of GP7000's glued to it.

I don't either, but I think if it's been this way for so long, and it was the DMs error in giving him the RP and being given the title, apparently, by Mystra, it's extremely unfair to Halen to say, "Woops, sorry! We lied! You're just a high level Sorcerer!"

Well, I think that I can speak for the rest of the DM team by stating that we don't feel too happy about this whole 'Chosen' bit. I have the feeling that it was intended as a champion, and that the DM in question didn't realise how special a Chosen of Mystra actually is and what it does to your setting if you make somebody one.

All water under the bridge, though.

Can always go with my safe "woops!" Fallback I use in tabletop to take the sting out of removing a power I gave to a player that turned out to break everything.

"After totally smashing my pack of critters 5 CR above you, a Wizard in some tower far away decides to mess with the fabric of space and time to see if he can eat his breakfast without first preparing it. The resulting chronopaltic backwash rewrote most of recent history and while you have all your experince and knowledge, you mysteriously forgot how to use [Really Broken Spell/Item/Power]."

Then I ask them to forgive me and give them some bonus to XP and loot.

I agree with you though, Disco. It's an Oops. They happen. Water under the bridge and all that.

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