AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

This is why we can't have nice things.

I don't think they have to pony up anything. It's never been required before. Halen's always been seen as epic by just about everyone that knew him. A hero of heros. There was once a group of people worshipping him at one time till he finally convinced them to worship Mystra.

Halen_Van wrote:

No flak storm, no cannons, no anger. I don't even own the book that has the class or prestige class in it.

That's just how he's been known for a long long time. That's how Mystra's refered to him, and how epic he's come to be known for. It's not something I knew would have entitled him to more than he already had. It's just what the rp developed to, through various events, and how I continue to rp him.

Halen was defined as a chosen as mystra over 4 years ago. During this time the DM team was pathetic, favouritism was a common thing, lore was used as toilet paper, achievements via the PC’s where legendary but hardly realistic. In the past 4 years the DM team has changed dramatically, things from 4 years ago require well thought out requests, things have been scaled to reflect what they should actually be.

More importantly the player base and the DM team both seek something called realism. The achievements of the old DM team should stay dead and buried, and new “realistic” achievements should be sought out.

To try and reign this in back to point. Let's say for the sake of arguement Champion of Mystra. I certainly would have no issues with that.

Why wouldn't Halen have that in his name?

Well, is it really comparable with 'Sir' or 'Lady' in front of your name?

How is it not comparable?

Both are recognized by a select group of people.

Both are ignored by those whom don't recognize it.

Both took alot of effort to achieve.

Both are suitable rewards for the rp.

This isn't an arguement for why Halen should have the tag, but why everyone who has achieved something significant couldn't have one applied to them just the same as those that have.

Halen_Van wrote:

How is it not comparable?

Both are recognized by a select group of people.

Both are ignored by those whom don't recognize it.

Both took alot of effort to achieve.

Both are suitable rewards for the rp.

This isn't an arguement for why Halen should have the tag, but why everyone who has achieved something significant couldn't have one applied to them just the same as those that have.

Sir avadons, Title is one that has diplomatic relations not for a mere faction. But instead for a fortress filled with commoners, his title reflects importance to many NPC’s. It does not reflect his beliefs, his faith is separate.

Champion of mystra, few NPC’s would really respect such a title, bar those of mystran faith. –ANY- commoner NPC will know of lords and ladies, they will admire them or hate them. They will know of them, and there sway across islands.

The difference is halen hasn’t broke past the “just another adventurer” status by being a champion of mystra, more to the point this title is expected and not a surprise.

I mean when you look at the words and their use in general. Is 'Sir' comparable to 'Champion of Mystra'?

Actually yes, Halen.

At a Secular, and wider-ranging level Sir Avadon, being a Knight would serve as Lord Wiltun's agent in the world and his representative amongst other things.

I am applying for "Most Confused Player" now...

Trying to figure out how better to say this.

Well, it's the combination of posts, not just yours.

Dev Disco wrote:

I am applying for "Most Confused Player" now...

Heh, I had the same idea, but I figured it's better to shut up and look intelligent, like I'd totally comprehend it all. But you decided to come out of the idiot-closet, so...

I never got into it. I never denied I got a memory like a peanut, I don't read any text longer than 5 lines, and I like simple stuff.

Will you two get a room already! or at least open up and msn one and make cyber babies.. The oh so obvious yet between the lines foreplay is burning my eyes.

Nekhy wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

I am applying for "Most Confused Player" now...

Heh, I had the same idea, but I figured it's better to shut up and look intelligent, like I'd totally comprehend it all. But you decided to come out of the idiot-closet, so...

We're coming out of the idiot-closet?

"Now I'm in the idiot-closet too."

Sir Avadon of Wiltun
Champion Halen of Mystra
Chosen Halen of Mystra (see, it has less letters! You have to go with it!)

I don't see why titles shouldn't be given out to PCs that already really deserve them, but then again I suppose it's up to the DM team to decide who deserves them.

Yurell wrote:

I don't see why titles shouldn't be given out to PCs that already really deserve them, but then again I suppose it's up to the DM team to decide who deserves them.

Precisely. It's up to the DMs. Ky'irael is a Divine Champion of Corellon Larethian, which makes him, essentially, a Champion of Corellon (surprise!), but that doesn't mean he's really achieved something. It's like becoming a cleric, or a Paladin. It's not really noteworthy in its own right.

However, if a DM ran an event, or series of events, in which Ky'irael did something amazing and stupendous, or something else noteworthy, and the DM felt that Ky'irael's accomplishments, not just his classes or current titles, were such that he could reasonably be assumed to be recognizable by name in cities like Cordor by the general populace, -then- he would be worthy of a title in front of his name.

The same applies to Halen. If a DM in a future event thinks Halen deserves a title, then by all means, he should get one. However, a DM in the past who (apparently incorrectly) dubbed Halen a Chosen of Mystra isn't particularly worthy of vouching for such a thing, especially given the quality of many of the DMs in the past.

If the DM team, now, decides Halen deserves a title, then sure, but I don't see why Halen, who for all we know was just picked out for such powerful things because some DMs especially liked you, should get a title now for things he did before any of the DMs now were players, much less DMs, except for Tormak, who was probably too busy sneaking around with Alu and Feo to care anyway!

Also, I'm not sure if you've noticed this, but the guy who runs a charitable organization usually isn't particularly well-known for such. Bill Gates has at least one that he founded, but he's not known for that, and if he were to achieve some social title, it would be for his contributions to the world, not for giving poor people dollar bills.

I rambled. I'm sorry. You might need to read that twice.

Yurell wrote:

Sir Avadon of Wiltun
Champion Halen of Mystra
Chosen Halen of Mystra (see, it has less letters! You have to go with it!)

I don't see why titles shouldn't be given out to PCs that already really deserve them, but then again I suppose it's up to the DM team to decide who deserves them.

The only titles I consider reasonable to have in your name are those of nobility. Since they're actually used when people introduce themself, and others refer to them.

It's not like you walk up to someone and say; "Hi, I'm Champion Darthion Illys of Cyric, what's your name?".

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Sir Avadon of Wiltun
Champion Halen of Mystra
Chosen Halen of Mystra (see, it has less letters! You have to go with it!)

I don't see why titles shouldn't be given out to PCs that already really deserve them, but then again I suppose it's up to the DM team to decide who deserves them.

The only titles I consider reasonable to have in your name are those of nobility. Since they're actually used when people introduce themself, and others refer to them.

It's not like you walk up to someone and say; "Hi, I'm Champion Darthion Illys of Cyric, what's your name?".

So, for example, the Pope wouldn't use his title? Don't forget churches are very powerful in D&D especially since the gods are actually real. "I am Halen, Champion of Mystra", "I am Sir Avadon, Knight of Wiltun" all carry basically the same style, the only difference is one is for a nation, the other for a Church.

It is still up for a DM to decide, but I know if a god took special interest in me and I was head of a Church I would want people to know, to not be treaed like any other hedge-wizard on the street.

Probably depends on the faith. I don't envision a high ranking priest of Ilmater bragging about his station.

I have no idea what the Pope calls himself.

Anyways, you can still introduce yourself like that, right? In the end, it's fuss over a nametag that usually people complain about because it's metagamed, right?

TormakSaber wrote:

I have no idea what the Pope calls himself.

According to Wikipedia, his full title is:

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God

BACK TO THE HEART OF IT...

As far as the titles debate goes, I find those ideally but not really OOC titles annoying if there is no apparent reason. For example, a PC with the War Knight moniker who is not dressed all in red is galling.

This then would seem to present a simple solution; if you wish to carry a floating title that has not been awarded by a DM, then you are obliged to wear the obvious uniform of the group or faction that this title is beholden to at all times.

This doesn't mean you have 'symbol on armor; Lore DC: a million billion or you know nothing fool' in you character profile but rather that you wear the EXACT same colours and ALMOST exact same armor of others from that group or faction AT ALL TIMES.

If you want to wear the title; the WEAR THE TITLE.[/b]

StandingBehindYou wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I have no idea what the Pope calls himself.

According to Wikipedia, his full title is:

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God

*yawns* I can make up lots of pretty names too, it's what you do with them that matters.

The Incognitos wrote:

This then would seem to present a simple solution; if you wish to carry a floating title that has not been awarded by a DM, then you are obliged to wear the obvious uniform of the group or faction that this title is beholden to at all times.

This doesn't mean you have 'symbol on armor; Lore DC: a million billion or you know nothing fool' in you character profile but rather that you wear the EXACT same colours and ALMOST exact same armor of others from that group or faction AT ALL TIMES.

If you want to wear the title; the WEAR THE TITLE.

For plenty of groups that use faction markers, the people are in uniform almost all the time.

I believe that a lot of Salandrans wear distinctive outfits most of the time. The Eternal Order has a standardized uniform. So do the Knights of the Triad (they actually have three patterns, and if you know which is which, they indicate whether the character's primary deity is Tyr, Ilmater, or Torm).

Most of these characters are in uniform 99% of the time you see them, simply because it makes sense IC, but I think a rule that they can never wear anything else would be unnecessarily restrictive. What purpose would it serve? How would it make the game better?

Azrael wrote:

*yawns* I can make up lots of pretty names too, it's what you do with them that matters.

The pope can shoot lightning from his fingers; I'd call that pretty impressive!

If Vael's not in uniform, he's probably wearing a Cloakpin or SOMETHING that'd signify he was in the Weave Knights. (if not I would probably ICly specify such)

If they are not wearing their armor then have them wear an official robe, again bearing very specific colouring and design. I do not believe that it is overly restrictive to impose the recognition of a title they chose to adopt.

There is a solid difference between wearing a uniform and commanding a title. If someone really wants recognition as a Knight Protector or some such position of privilege then they are obliged to declare themselves as such and bear the burden.

Titles above names in relation to factions are a severs impediment to anyone who may wish to impersonate a member of a faction prone to adding said titles. That said I think it is totally reasonable to demand and expect that titled faction members display their colours without exception. If they do not wish to wear their colours at all times then they should not be permitted to bear a title.

That's a faction decision, not a server one, and ultimately up to each faction to decide for themselves. We won't be instating something like that, so continued arguing for it is a little moot.

Indeed. The Weave Knights, for example, have an open policy, both IC'ly for the uniforms and OOC'ly for the name tags. I don't feel it's essential for everyone to -have- to do it a certain way, and if they don't want to be called "XYZ 'Weave Knight'" then they have their reasons, and it's good enough for me. Doesn't mean they aren't going on the IC roster, though. :wink:

IC'ly, Riia encourages wearing a uniform, but she'll die before she enforces a strict policy. They're not Weave Knights to look good, after all (even though she totally does).

So it would appear that you can have your cake and eat it to. To all that want to know, this is why you shouldn't take a spy character too seriously. Put simply no one else will.

As was just shown, there is such a grand amount of IC and OOC back and forth leeway on titles, appearance and identification that things will ultimately fall on the side of those who can pick and chose their obviously apparent allegiances at will.

If I sound annoyed about this it is because I am. I have been told by PCs (bearing faction titles) on whom I have spied that the information I got from them was void because I couldn't have recognized them. Oddly it would seem that the same characters are happy to have their apparently OOC title acknowledged in circumstances that do not cause them hardship or indeed bring benefits or prestige.

I do not doubt that the responses to a remark like this will consist of comments suggesting that I improve my spying, refrain from telling others how to RP, stop metagaming names, toughen up and stop crying and so forth.

The fact will remain however, that players will retain the ability to place a flickering light denoting rank and privileged above their heads and then switch it on and off at will.

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing, and kind of applying your logic to situations where the logic doesn't apply. Calm down. You get worked up a lot of this stuff and it's not worth it.

I never got the idea of in game earned titles being put in your name. I'd personally hate "Grandmaster" Anywhere in Brandrik's name. I like it better that people who know him and his rank refer to him as such. That to me is a better earned title than what a name tag says.

My one post on the topic.

OOC titles mean crap. Take the EO for instance..

We've had NPCs recognize our titles as well as PCs, greeting us with them.

Dorne bowed his head to the heads of the EO and greeted Sharina as "GrandMaster Sharina"

Anyone else had Dorne BOW to them and greet them by title? >_>

Personally I find it more awesome when people do that, and it's not a fully public or known title, but something people have picked up.. it shows they've done "research" or followed the ranks and things inside the Order.. every time Maioth is greeted as Cardinal or Master, I grin and go "Oh yeah!"

Especially when it's people you haven't met before.

Respect is EARNED that way, not shoved into people's faces with an OOC title and have them go "Oh high Blah Blah"

I think writing up OOC titles in the name, past a faction thing is sort of silly. Even the faction thing is silly, because my Kellie char is recognized, by his behavior, armor and everything BUT his OOC tag.

People want it in their names AND have earned, I say let them keep it..

people want to be spoken to by titles of people, EARN the respect ICly,and suddenly people actually WILL greet you by it.

Personally one of the most awesome moment was when Maioth was recognized by a NPC in Cordor as a Judge and Master of the Order and asked to take over as prosecution in the trial of Samuel Greywatch with a FULL courtroom.. the 10 minutes i took to "prepare" were 2 minutes to find up the forum posts we had written, and 8 minutes of squealing and bragging.

This applies equally so to Avalon and Lady Misty though. Why bother putting it in thier tags. A note on the DM forums is sufficient, though possibly not even needed now that it's a four page debate. A fun debate too.

The difference is just this:

Others have earned it, but haven't gotten it.

These PC's have "earned" it and got it.

So make a standard and stick to it. Otherwise it's kinda hard for everyone else not a DM to look at it and make sense of it.

Quote:

The difference is just this:

Others have earned it, but haven't gotten it.

These PC's have "earned" it and got it.

You used quotes, so apparently you see a difference. What is it?

Well, Avalon I think completely earned his.

The marrying him took really little effort on Misty's part. Marrying someone is easier than killing the gobos at lvl 3 on Amia. It's the not getting divorced/finding out your wife is a hooker/whore/lesbian, etc that's a difference.

Halen_Van wrote:

So make a standard and stick to it. Otherwise it's kinda hard for everyone else not a DM to look at it and make sense of it.

Making a standard and advertising it to the playerbase would be encouraging you to do exactly what those who have earned it thus far did not do: run a rat maze to earn it, with me holding the cheese at the end block. In that case, you did nothing to deserve it - you just did what I told you to do, you followed instructions, and there's no challenge in that.

It is infinitely more rewarding if you stumble around in the dark underworld of prestige, roleplaying towards no purpose but the purpose of your character, and to merely be distinguished on your own merit.

But on one condition: that you have faith in the DM team to do it right and not be favoritist.

EDIT: I've also never stated my "criteria" for Dream Coins, which are "roleplay rewards". I'm likewise not going to state my personal criteria for titles. Not necessarily. But in some cases, it may be plainly obvious. I think it is painfully obvious how to be knighted in Wiltun, but hey, I've been proven wrong.

Just because there is a standard doesn't mean it has to be "Do X" and "Get Y".

Afterall, I've included lesser "titles" in my arguements, and feel there is no less legitimacy for those that have gained them icly, just not in thier tag.

I suppose the hot question is whether this DM team should grant titles retrospectively for deeds the previous DM team approved of. Given the ideological differences between the team we have now and the team that we had before, I am not sure if I could ask that of them.

That's one of the best answers yet.

Ideological difference? please, add details

The team back then and the team now are simply not the same people. Many of the details are ones we can't release to the public forums.

And some things carry over, and somethings dont, and the team a few months ago is different than the one now, and its still different ideas Its all very wierd, especially with transitions and people running away and all I probably would argue on this more, but Im suprised I can type hoherantly.

You can't. :wink:

Nah, let's not get into the details. Let's just settle for there having been ideological differences. The rest is water under the bridge, anyway.

Dev Disco wrote:

Let's say we like our events slightly less epic these days.

Guess it's about this really.

In the past if someone wanted to make a dragon/devil etc he just made one, and things like dracoliches, vampires and constructs were viable character choices.

Things were also less mundane, for example, I once heard one character tell how he got hugged by the avatar of Eilistraee.

A bit off topic, but I now coin the term "dracoholic" for a certain type of player.

*Finishes reading thread.*

...

And you complain that we won't let you "do stuff"?

Foolishly, I thought Yossarin's concerns when he did this were illfounded. The players are mature, they will welcome this, I said. They long for an example of a PC succesfully engaging and having a lasting impact on the enviroment through RP, I thought. But no.

IMO, Amia of old is gone, the players who played characters who lived in both settings are themselves responsible to bridge the transition in a sensible way. So far, I've thought you were the prime example of this sensible conduct Halen, by playing out the status as a "Chosen of Mystra" out as a mere rumor, most likely a fabric of Halen's megalomania...

Suppose it's just fustrating for some people who have done epic deeds and not really get rewarded, and the fact that at certain times a night there is no dm that wants to run anything.

I actually read somethings that some people have said and I have said in the past.. yes we are quick to call favoritism.. but some of the dm's who knew the old dm team, do you blame us? you know that saying once bitten twice shy? maybe that has something to do with it. people are cautious. I have made a it a point in the past I am shy of dm's I didn't grow up roleplaying with (since it has almost been a quarter of my life on this one server I think Grow up isn't an overstatement.)

Maybe I ain't actually expressing myself here properly, I'll think of wording what I truly mean

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Suppose it's just fustrating for some people who have done epic deeds and not really get rewarded, and the fact that at certain times a night there is no dm that wants to run anything.

I actually read somethings that some people have said and I have said in the past.. yes we are quick to call favoritism.. but some of the dm's who knew the old dm team, do you blame us? you know that saying once bitten twice shy? maybe that has something to do with it. people are cautious. I have made a it a point in the past I am shy of dm's I didn't grow up roleplaying with (since it has almost been a quarter of my life on this one server I think Grow up isn't an overstatement.)

I think you are quite on the spot here. However, you have to realise that by now I am the oldest active team member. The last one hailing from the period before me left... 2 years ago? There's a lot of water under the bridge by now, and you could easily drown if you swim in it too often.

I do understand the frustrations, but I doubt it's easy to remedy them.

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