AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

We work hard to avoid favorism, but even if we are 100% successful at that, Amia will never be fair. Timezones, playing hours, and random chance affects Amia, too.

On an ideological level, you should reflect on whether you want fair or exciting Amia. You can't have both.

It could be fairly exciting? <.<

I'll Admit when Yoss approached Keri about her suits she was making to be sold in a shop I was really nervous and was hoping it would lead to soemthing I went around trying to get Keri an easy way to produce the suits in an easy fashion.. surely people remember Keri's "craft time" Idea at the orphanage which was shot down by those she's trust before it was off the ground, Nothing really came of it but there was hope that I may be abe to develop it more.

But maybe it is an good idea to have more things like this happen more often, we will just have to get used to the concept first, slowly but surely the server and the vocal oldies may actually start believing.. I surely hope I will one day without being gun/dm shy

and disco.. as much as you and I conflicted in the past over stuff I think your right about the drowning part.

Dev Disco wrote:

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Suppose it's just fustrating for some people who have done epic deeds and not really get rewarded, and the fact that at certain times a night there is no dm that wants to run anything.

I actually read somethings that some people have said and I have said in the past.. yes we are quick to call favoritism.. but some of the dm's who knew the old dm team, do you blame us? you know that saying once bitten twice shy? maybe that has something to do with it. people are cautious. I have made a it a point in the past I am shy of dm's I didn't grow up roleplaying with (since it has almost been a quarter of my life on this one server I think Grow up isn't an overstatement.)

I think you are quite on the spot here. However, you have to realise that by now I am the oldest active team member. The last one hailing from the period before me left... 2 years ago? There's a lot of water under the bridge by now, and you could easily drown if you swim in it too often.

I do understand the frustrations, but I doubt it's easy to remedy them.

You, Straz and Kung are the oldest now, then there's... me, the last one standing from the batch of n00bs after you. Battle-hardened vets, who have seen it all and then some more.

Last edited by Zante on Sun, Mar 15 2009, 11:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I myself have often felt disappointed and unfair, when some really old characters talk about their exploits.

When someone brags about having snuggled a god, or reforged the weave, some of the really epic stuff one would attribute to Elminster, characters having the power to literally destroy Faerun with artifacts of godlike powers. it can't not irk you that no matter what you will try, deeds of that scale will simply not happen again.

It us just kind of frustrating when people from years ago talk about huge personalized epic plots, stories crafted entirely around them, and you know you got no chance of doing anything like that yourself anymore.

This is just me being jealous, I know. And I think as a whole, the change of the server is for the better, if I look at it rationally. It just seems in hindsight like people in the past could actually accomplish stuff and be special, when today, everyone is just an adventurer like dozen others. I would like if everyone had a chance to be special and shine, but it just seems impossible to do in a fair way.

Yes... but... those people accomplished what they did, at the expense of every other player in the server. If you weren't In, you were Out. It's not fun being Out, speaking from firsthand experience here.

My heart's not really in this post, and it's just rote DM talk going through here. I know exactly what you meant, Zante. I really do.

I do love an epic plot every now and then, Like Tormaks dragon flight.. that actully got the whole server involved and wanting to be involved.. even if I always just missed it and the one I went on the dragon fled(from Rith mwhahahahah one palidhoom to many)

But My faorite plots I have had in recent years was particullay the "we bored Keri go stir up trouble" so Keri runs into cordor east saying that she saw some men carrying explosives,.. and it took offas the dm's got involved and laughter came.. but yeah I'm a big fan of the improvised plot, but I would love to know that my character could actually do something meaningful

I think it is part of the human nature, we all want to be special. It makes us feel good about ourselves, feel floating in clouds and somewhat loved. We all want to have accomplished something great, of epic proportions. Life doesn't really allow that. We born, we grow up, we get jobs (some more heroic than others), we make our family, we grow old with those with love (if are lucky) and we die. It is as simple as that, unless you decide to become a daredevil or something. But, life doesn't allow epic, a game does.

In a game of dungeon and dragons we can actually become heroes, we can have power, able to cast amazing spells. Able to deal with dragons, to become friends of magical beings. Our need to be special have finally some feedback, we can be everything we can imagine.

I think becoming a hero recognized by all, and special cannot be just because you play on a server for ever, but because you have done something that everyone would recognize as heroic. Maybe in the verge of battle you sneaked in the Calims'hite boat and killed the captain taking the others as prisoners, you saved not only Cordor but the entire island. You should be recognized by that and maybe even have a title. But, then comes envy, comes I wasn't the Hero because I wasn't given the chance.

Then, the DMs as arbitrators get on this rocky spot, where they want to compensate people that made a difference and make them become this hero of the land because he deserved it, but they cannot because everyone else will get hurt. Everyone else will defend some feat they have done, so they can also accomplish notoriety. Why? because we want to be known, we want to be admired and we want above all to be loved by all.

Well, it is not possible. Heroes are rare, they are usually in the right place at the right time and honestly they usually are not there to be heroes, they do what they have to do and when they save us all, they go, crap, I didn't expect that.

I honestly don't need titles, but I wish some people would have them. I wish Sharina were recognized by all she has done. And what is all? She kept many people busy, she was a Defender for a long time and worked hard with the Defenders, people that played at that time know the value she had. She is leading one of the only successful factions for as long as I play here and before that. She brings conflicts, she brings fights, she makes things happen while most of us are sitting around. What did she gain from this all? OOC hell. Good job amians!!

I also think that Halen has consistently rped as the son of Mystra for as long as I play in the server, he had done some epic things that are not allowed anymore, but that we cannot ignore as part of our history, I wouldnt mind him being recognized, somehow, not by becoming a mythical being, unless he wants to turn into a NPC. But, maybe some title would be not that big deal.

I dont know about Avadon, I dont play there much. But, if Yossarin gave him the title I believe it was fair. I believe he deserved it, because Yoss isnt one to give titles.

I think very few other people should have titles, Xaviera, could yes be the Lady of the night. She is the most consistent Sharessi I know, everyone pops, get their cybering hit and leaves. She stays and she keeps the Sharessi belief, she is a retired prostitute, but she is more than that, she has being a friend for many, she has being one of the first to receive many people in the server and become their friends introducing them to other players in Amia. Also, what is wrong with Lady of the night? it doesn't even mean much, it is just some gratification for someone that is faithful to the server, that is faithful to their character and that have done much for many people role playing.

Of course we all have our personal choices to receive titles and that makes things complicated. Maybe if we vote or something, and give the reason for our vote; we could select the three people on top of the list that most of us voted and give them a title. That would be us all, as players, recognizing someone's else accomplishment without being selfish and too envy to recognize those that did accomplish something. Of course, we would need to have a large number of players caring enough to vote.

Otherwise, just leave it as it is, we dont really need titles to be worthy something, we know what we have done and we should be proud of our accomplishments even if others are not.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Sun, Mar 15 2009, 15:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

www.dynaverse.net vs Frey.... 1-0.

Considering it's my website, I win

.

Regards,

Who the fuck eats popcorn like that?

I guess that little smiley there, Carterzorz.

:lol:

Regards,

The times, they are a' chang'n...

Lots of things have changed. Some things I like, some things I don't. Lots of things are changing... same thing.

I do like the idea of more character recognition. I really do. But the way the arguements seem to be going down, I don't like the way it's being handled.

I call spam on this, and leave with

'If everyone is special - nobody is'

TormakSaber wrote:

Yes... but... those people accomplished what they did, at the expense of every other player in the server. If you weren't In, you were Out. It's not fun being Out, speaking from firsthand experience here.

That rings really, really true from what I've seen elsewhere.

Zante wrote:

I myself have often felt disappointed and unfair, when some really old characters talk about their exploits.

Believe me, hearing about semi-mythical events that happened RL years ago (so long ago that it barely seems real or relevant) burns far, far less than hearing about those events happening as you're playing but having your character utterly closed out of doing anything similar or participating in any way except as a cheerleader for the real PCs.

Kjetta wrote:

On an ideological level, you should reflect on whether you want fair or exciting Amia. You can't have both.

[quote="TormakSaber']
Yes... but... those people accomplished what they did, at the expense of every other player in the server. If you weren't In, you were Out. It's not fun being Out, speaking from firsthand experience here.
[/quote]

I think it's possible to have both, otherwise there wouldn't even be DM events. I don't believe favoritism really exsists now. I just disagree with how something has been handled. I think if anyone has the right to express and talk about this in a civil manner, it's the players.

Honestly I'm not even trying earnestly to have the title in Halen's name. It was used as an example to see what kind of arguements one could truely make about not giving past exploits the right to a title that had been denied to them up to this point, without deconstructing or destroying the arguements as to why Avalon needs to keep his title rather than notating it on the DM boards and be done with it. Mind you, I'm all for him keeping his title, but it's vested with the idea that the access is opened up for others as well.

There may be no favoritism, but by no means does that equal Amia being fair. We aim to keep it as fair as possible without unreasonable expense to the other virtues of an RP server, but fairness simply isn't the only, or even most important, objective. Neither Amia nor any other server in the history of online gaming is completely fair.

Furthermore, life isn't fair.

The world is cold. Bundle up.

Gotta love how the DM team acts and speaks like the Finnish Green Party. They're a government party, yet at times they oppose the government better than the official opposition does and they have absolutely no qualms about disagreeing with party members in public.

This is why I love my DM colleagues, just like I love my party. <3

Halen.. hes called Avadon lol

"It is possible to get a title in your name at the DM's discreetion based on a current event. Because we cannot verify the validity of events from our prior DM teams, former events are not valid points of consideration for a title. These titles are awarded and not availible for requests."

After reviewing most of the key points in the debate, and with private debates with others, I think this statement best fields any concern those whom actually have complaint with this might have.

But I'm not a DM, so nothing I say is really official.

I'm having a ball of a time right now with this discussion.. because I just imagined it happening in character.

Try it!

Velis: What, you snogged Selune?

Boppi: Yes I did!

Arronax: Lies! I'm prettier!

Boppi: I even have proof! *Holds up a picture* PROOF!

Xavi: I'm so jealous!

Darth: How refreshing, I killed Tiamat, I needed new boots.

Eary: So (@$* !@$( what? Your mouth probably looks like her puckered *carries on about the southward regions of a dragon, instructing on every post-mortem action in graphic detail* under that hat you never take off.

Spooks: I bet his breath stinks too!... well. I blew up a moon. No really, I did. We did it together, Ao and me. And then he gave me a Ginanamous Mythal. Only one. I'd show you, but it'd crush this pathetic little planet.

Darth: Just keep yammering Cupcake.

So...I just got done reading all 5 pages of this thread. I cannot believe that it has gone past my attention for so long and that something that I considered so simple has been given such a wide range of attention.

I guess to start off I should say that I am the player of the mentioned "Sir Avadon of Wiltun." I want to start off first by saying that in no way shape or form did I: request, yearn for, need, or consider my self even worthy of the title that my character was given.

I definitely considered it an honor that Yoss thought enough of my rp and considered my character deserving of such a gift. For one it has stimulated all sorts of interesting rp that months ago (When I first joined Amia in early November) I would have never thought possible. Secondly, I in no way expected this to occur. In truth I was more than satisfied with simply having fun rping in Wiltun. Because that in all reality is what this whole knighty...lordy...whatever you want to call it "thingy" has been, FUN. And to be honest it has kind of been scary.

I use the word scary because I was afraid of the response that it would receive from other players on Amia. I was afraid that Yoss would be called a favoritist. I was afraid that others would OOCLY snub me because of the floating title above a tiefers head. To be honest Yoss has not given me anything more than a chance to have a broader expansion in my rp, leading me down roads of interaction that I never imagined would be possible when I, in all my noobiness months ago and even still, bought my copy of Never Winter Nights because I had seen my room mate, as some of you may know him "Celsius Leonwall", play.

I wanted to quote and respond to so many of the posts that have been made on this thread but there is only so much space that I want to trash with my own thoughts and I'd hate to bore anyone who still might be reading this thread. Simply put, I have not even come close to achieving half of the things that I have seen some of the players list. Avadon has not saved the world, Avadon is a lousy husband and Misty has more than earned her title for simply putting up with all his damnable escapades : P

But I just wanted anyone who still might be reading this post to understand where I was coming from. I feel BLESSED, I feel UNWORTHY, and I feel HUMBLED that I was even considered to be the guinea pig for this experiment that Yoss thought would only benefit the world and players of Amia. I believe that ICly if your character gives a flying flip about Wiltun then that is cool...rp it. If OOCLY you think less of me as a player or Yoss as a DM who is working hard to try and find ways that will stimulate growth and excitement in our escape from reality, then perhaps you are not allowing yourself to see the full picture as I often fail to do. I personally consider myself a mediocre rper and am constantly striving to be better. I thank Yoss and all the other DMs who have even the smallest bit of faith in me to not take this responsibility as their test subject and muck it all up for everyone else.

I did not want my post to be this long...but because I am the player of one of the characters being discussed I felt it relevant that my thoughts be put in writing.

Last edited by Dwagin on Mon, Mar 16 2009, 8:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd say the fun in RP and fervor for it is why you were gifted with this, darlin.

I hope you do not feel bad about this or feel turned off from Amia, because of it.. and I hope no one gives you trouble.

I remember when Cel got you involved and we rolled up new characters to help you get a good start, the excitement was tangable and you still have it. I remember when I came back after my dissapearance, how excited you were that I was around again that we could RP together.

I'm sorry if you do.

divinesaint wrote:

[...]"Sir Avadon of Wiltun."[...]

Congratulations, btw.

If Amia is unfair, why can it not be unfair in our favor?*

I think the no title in name rule should be kept strictly. If one gets such a name tag, everyone wants one obviously. Instead of giving out this Sir blabla of Wiltun name tag, give him a RP item that is a letter of nobility from Wiltun. It might be cooler since it can state his heroic deeds that brought him this title.

* Wisdom from Calvin and Hobbes

*Huggles Dwagin*

Ah yes, those were the good ole days. Ya didn't hear it from me but a certain pally might be making a come back....*wink wink*

In no way shape or form does this turn me off from Amia. I just do not want people to speak ill of Yoss or the DM team, it is not easy keeping such a large player base satisfied. And I thank them all for their efforts to try and make more fun rp situations for all us common folk!

I would just like to say that I didn't start the thread with Avadon and his lass in mind, I'd already realized they're a special case to whom honor was due. "Sir" and "Lady" were an ill-chosen example.

It never bothered me just so you know. I don't mind at all and I bet with you most Amians don't mind either.

It didn't actually bothered me, or I'd have brought it up when you first got it. I just argued for the sake of trying to address all the issues to which people might have against it and form a conscise arguement/reason for allowing titles now.

Dwagin wrote:

Velis: What, you snogged Selune?

Boppi: Yes I did!

Arronax: Lies! I'm prettier!

Boppi: I even have proof! *Holds up a picture* PROOF!

Xavi: I'm so jealous!

What scares me the most is that this is an argument that isn't entirely unfeasible.

Well I like the idea of being able to earn titles which actually mean something to the world at large, which is why I was glad to see Sir Avadon and Lady Misty get these titles. It sets a president which I am glad to see.

I also see where Halen is coming from as most of our characters may have past deeds which are worthy of titles but unless they were witnessed or given out by a current member of the DM team I see little way to prove what happened. Other than that we should start with a fresh slate and see what titles we pick up along the way.

Gravemaskin wrote:

What scares me the most is that this is an argument that isn't entirely unfeasible.

More or less true story. Someone was talking about their accomplishments in serving their deity when someone went, so what, she hugged me. Then another guy went, well she kissed me!

Was kind of lame, as they pretty much dismissed the ''mundane'' accomplishment achieved by the character. *shrugs*

divinesaint wrote:

But I just wanted anyone who still might be reading this post to understand where I was coming from. I feel BLESSED, I feel UNWORTHY, and I feel HUMBLED that I was even considered to be the guinea pig for this experiment that Yoss thought would only benefit the world and players of Amia. I believe that ICly if your character gives a flying flip about Wiltun then that is cool...rp it. If OOCLY you think less of me as a player or Yoss as a DM who is working hard to try and find ways that will stimulate growth and excitement in our escape from reality, then perhaps you are not allowing yourself to see the full picture as I often fail to do. I personally consider myself a mediocre rper and am constantly striving to be better. I thank Yoss and all the other DMs who have even the smallest bit of faith in me to not take this responsibility as their test subject and muck it all up for everyone else.
.

Couldn't have said it better myself *winks* I am also honored to be part of this "experiment" good word by the way. I would just like to add that both Avadon and myself try to play our charaters responsibly in order to create interesting rp and perhaps open up opportunities for other players on the server. Maybe if we give it a chance to see what happenes without the staff getting all kinds of grief from it.... well the possibilities on Amia are endless...

*Also wonders how she missed this thread till Avadon"s player told her.. blushes*

If you earned it, you earned it and that is great. It's nice to see people get recognized for what they do. I don't think many people here would really want that taken away.

I have personally don't give a hoot about titles and such as it concerns me, I just think that a lot of exceptional players find themselves, after years of quality RPing as a PC, scratching their heads thinking "what gives"? Why was I never given an opportunity? How come there was a DM to shadow this person when I never even get a DC? What do I have to do to get any respect from the team?

All hypothetical, but surely relevant thoughts that some people probably have.

Again, I think it's great.

A DM has every right to choose what reward they dump on a player without piles of "me too" complaints. A reward that is seldom given is a reward that is worth a lot.

Last edited by Kjetta on Tue, Mar 17 2009, 10:33 AM, edited 2 times in total.

krytellan wrote:

I have personally don't give a hoot about titles and such as it concerns me, I just think that a lot of exceptional players find themselves, after years of quality RPing as a PC, scratching their heads thinking "what gives"? Why was I never given an opportunity? How come there was a DM to shadow this person when I never even get a DC? What do I have to do to get any respect from the team?

All valid questions that anyone who wants to engage Amia through DMs should ask themselves. While we comabt DM favorism of OOC friends with flamethrowers and nukes, I can honestly say that I favor certain types of chars over others, and these will receive more attention from me.
This is because our plots and events are mostly driven by our own intereset and curiosity, at least that's the case for me.

I have a fetish for mundane chars, it seems. I really hate it when a wizard solves everything with a snap of a finger. But that's just me. The DM Team is a diverse group of people, and that makes us somewhat fair, I guss. Though, it certainly is possible to hit a blind spot of either timezone coverage and/or DM interest. That's just another sad fact of life, I guess. We do try our best to spread the DM love though.

Kjetta wrote:

krytellan wrote:

I have personally don't give a hoot about titles and such as it concerns me, I just think that a lot of exceptional players find themselves, after years of quality RPing as a PC, scratching their heads thinking "what gives"? Why was I never given an opportunity? How come there was a DM to shadow this person when I never even get a DC? What do I have to do to get any respect from the team?

All valid questions that anyone who wants to engage Amia through DMs should ask themselves. While we comabt DM favorism of OOC friends with flamethrowers and nukes, I can honestly say that I favor certain types of chars over others, and these will receive more attention from me.

As impartial as DMs try to be,they are human - they will favour different type of RP to each other, even to themselves depending on their mood. At the moment, this was Yoss' big leap of faith in the playerbase, with actual strong influence with the NPCs.
We can't all have a DM shadowing us - I know I never will, if not because of my RP then because of my timezone ... but the fact that they are willing to put that much work into something is a great thing, to be met with thanks rather than complaint.

There's one thing in all of this that I've seen people mention but never really come outright and say.

NPCs aside, it is largely the PC's choice to respond or call someone something depending upon their rank -AFTER- learning IC of such a rank if they ever do.

As the individual behind the PCs, it doesn't really matter if the other PC had a title that declared them the left shoe polisher of God, it's up to that PERSON to decide if they react or not.

I've got a few mains and some alts. My original main Angelicae wouldn't call anyone Sir, Lady, Ma'am or anything namely because even with a crown and heraldy behind them, she doesn't know them and they haven't earned enough of her grudging respect to be called more than a common 'lass or lad'. It's gotten her rude looks *grins at Brinston* but she thinks everyone is equal until they prove they're not.

My half-elf Melogant calls -everyone- sir or ma'am because she's excruciatingly polite.

My elfling (not real elfling, I know those are Plat races) gives everyone titles of respect that only mean something from her homeland like Weaver for many casters/druids/etc or Warder for rangers.

Back to the main point of this, it's up to the individual to decide how their PCs respond to a noble to common NPC and PC. And IMHO, it might be harder to not have a preset assumption if you see a PC with a nobility rank in their title.

But isn't the point of RPing to see the life stories that some people print in their bios and try to not metagame around it?

Example:

*spots Avadon IC and thinks 'Well is he another Tiefling or something? Huh...' Keeps on walking depending on surrounding RP.*

-NOT-

*spots Avadon IC using the magical powers of Reading Invisible Hovering Letters and thinks 'He's got Lord in his title, I wonder what goodies that will net me?'*

Anyone see the difference?

colanah wrote:

*spots Avadon IC and thinks 'Well is he another Tiefling or something? Huh...' Keeps on walking depending on surrounding RP.*

-NOT-

*spots Avadon IC using the magical powers of Reading Invisible Hovering Letters and thinks 'He's got Lord in his title, I wonder what goodies that will net me?'*

Anyone see the difference?

That doesn't really matter though. House names and faction names do that same thing. Furthermore, lets say as an example that you know OOCly that Lyle is the captain of the Dale Militia. He doesn't have that hovering over his head, but you know. You can very easily decided the same thing, "Hmmm, maybe if I hang around Lyle, my new character will get some kind of perk around the Dale."

People will metagame if that's what they want to do, you can't stop them. I don't find it a good enough reason not to allow titles, house names or faction titles in their name.

What I do think though is, it's either all or nothing. Titles, house names and faction titles, all of them. If one gets the boot, boot them all. Why chose sides on something so minor? It really is just that, something minor. A big deal is being made out of something petty and silly.

Random comment from oldbie that never plays anymore.

It bothers me how policies can change on a whim here. It always has, since way before the split. Good communication between the staff and players can prevent a lot of the gunk that builds upon the forms.

Before reversing a policy, I'd recommend notifying the playerbase before hand and even elicit opinions on the subject so they can at least be considered before hand and avoid the spawning hindsight discussions.

Change is fine, but the healthiest thing for any community is to discuss it first, set expectations, and so forth. Further, by publishing the change across the community prior to implementing it upon a specific individual, you pre-empt claims of favortism.

vectortangent wrote:

Random comment from oldbie that never plays anymore.

It bothers me how policies can change on a whim here. It always has, since way before the split. Good communication between the staff and players can prevent a lot of the gunk that builds upon the forms.

Before reversing a policy, I'd recommend notifying the playerbase before hand and even elicit opinions on the subject so they can at least be considered before hand and avoid the spawning hindsight discussions.

Change is fine, but the healthiest thing for any community is to discuss it first, set expectations, and so forth. Further, by publishing the change across the community prior to implementing it upon a specific individual, you pre-empt claims of favortism.

Words of wisdom. Well put.

It's a change in individual DMs' opinion about what qualifies a character for a noble title.

Policy didn't change nor did the rules on this, but people on the team changed.

If all of us are too afraid to do anything because of exactly what happened in this topic, nothing would get done. I stand by Yoss's decision. Someone needs to have the balls to make it happen first.

TormakSaber wrote:

If all of us are too afraid to do anything because of exactly what happened in this topic, nothing would get done. I stand by Yoss's decision. Someone needs to have the balls to make it happen first.

This... again.

Hmm. Oddity.

I think the fear comes from two sides personally. the player base and the dm base, both fear each other. Like I said once bitten twice shy

I am quite amused to see PCs having a title and then, after sparking my interest, I see the Bioware standard bio.

Titles

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