_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
Last edited by Dwagin on Sat, Jun 04 2011, 6:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Well I'm not familiar with the fearun mythos on this point, but it will probably be quite a bit off from the historical correct view. But when it comes to true historical warfare things I do have a few things to add.
The best most commen used armour of a samurai was made of hardend leather with metal plates worked on it, worn over a thick stuffed jacket. Studded leather armour if you will. It was inspired as much by current devolpment and practicallity as it was by tradition, thus resulting in elaborate and decorative looking armours. Keep in mind the poorer would wear simpler versions of it of course. Monsterous looking face masked helmets where also very popular.
Full metal armours where used too, by the highest classes, in the later days of the empire, but these where very simular in made to the Roman style armours. Many loose plates of steel fixed together with leather straps, with sepera extra shoulder plates or leg plates hung over them. Very different from the European full plates where the pieces of metal where shaped, jointed and hinged to fit around the body in as large a pieces as possible.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
Katanas are most effective when slicing. Full plate is most protective against slicing.
Thus katana vs Full plate = unmovable object vs unstoppable force.
[edit]It's very hard to compare weapons and armours when two opposing sides come from different regions/eras in history. The armour the Japanese Samurai wore served a different purpose to the armour of Medieval Europe. Just like the Samurai styles of combat of more one on one duels differed to the brawly, wild hack and slash combat of Europe and the Middle East.
okay then how about some one telling me what Samurai armours like instead? like whats it made out of ext?
Varying bits of metal, leather, cloth padding, buckles..plates.
My link has specifics stating how it is put together and made and what each piece is made out of...
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
I saw samurai armour gifted to queen victoria by the japanese emperor at the Leeds Armoury in the UK once. You ever get the chance do go and see their oriental section.
What I really thought was cool is they have a katana from the 900's - looks like it was made yesterday... Viking gear from the same era? Rusty chainlink that's fused with age and gunk.
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European forging technology was superior to oriental - the scimitar is a katana with European forging technologies.
In fact, the best katanas ever made were from Russian railway tracks.
And as for weapons vs armour, armour is made of lesser quality steel.
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The Japanese also had different techniques for forging the blades to the Europeans. The katana was also alot more personalised then the viking axes which would probably only last a single raid before being discarded.
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Galenson wrote:
The Japanese also had different techniques for forging the blades to the Europeans. The katana was also alot more personalised then the viking axes which would probably only last a single raid before being discarded.
Europeans did tend more towards mass production.
That said, swords in Europe were also more highly individualised since it was a symbol of status - only someone with a decent amount of money could afford a sword, since it had no purpose other than to kill other people, unlike a bow or an axe.
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European forging technology was superior to oriental - the scimitar is a katana with European forging technologies. In fact, the best katanas ever made were from Russian railway tracks.
And as for weapons vs armour, armour is made of lesser quality steel.
I could have sworn that the Scimitar came from the Mongolian saber.
The katana came from a natural progression of the Japanese longsword, I do know for certain.
If I had to pick a favorite sword I'd choose a khopesh.
A well armored knight with longsword and shield, against a samurai of similar skill and equipment quality level would likely pose an equivalent threat.
Platemail armor was not slowing as its weight was spread over the body and was not overly restrictive in the case of segmented plate. It was amazing, about 90lb or so.
It'd come down to if the samurai could make good bites into the vulnerable spots, or use a tanto/wakizashi in tandem or other weapons to hit the weak points in the armor, since they were for close-combat thrusting.
They used completely variant fighting styles, and would likely have been a good match, in the open-ground.
I'd be far more excited to see a Nordic Claymore Warrior vs Samurai fight, tho.
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Dwagin wrote:
Yurell wrote:
European forging technology was superior to oriental - the scimitar is a katana with European forging technologies. In fact, the best katanas ever made were from Russian railway tracks.
And as for weapons vs armour, armour is made of lesser quality steel.
I could have sworn that the Scimitar came from the mongolian saber which came from the chinese broadsword.
The katana came from a natural progression of the japanese longsword, I do know for certain.
If I had to pick a favorite sword I'd choose a khopesh.
It did, but it is what you get trying to make a katana using the forging technology favoured by Europeans.
Katanas were easy to break, too ... apply a little bit of torque and the would shatter.
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European forging technology was superior to oriental - the scimitar is a katana with European forging technologies. In fact, the best katanas ever made were from Russian railway tracks.
And as for weapons vs armour, armour is made of lesser quality steel.
I could have sworn that the Scimitar came from the mongolian saber which came from the chinese broadsword.
The katana came from a natural progression of the japanese longsword, I do know for certain.
If I had to pick a favorite sword I'd choose a khopesh.
It did, but it is what you get trying to make a katana using the forging technology favoured by Europeans. Katanas were easy to break, too ... apply a little bit of torque and the would shatter.
I actually don't know where you're getting this information from, but most of it is ridiculous and wrong. The Japanese were producing steel in forges that was of a much greater grade and quality than Europeans, and a Katana was much more of a personal weapon than any European blade - especially to a Samurai whos nobility and family heritage, as well as the spirits of his ancestors, was dependant on the maintenance and care of his holy weapon. As far as dynamics of warfare is concerned, no blade ever invented had the same combination of power, speed, and grace that the Japanese Katana did.
And the ancient Japanese technique for forging steel far surpassed the European's methods until the mass production of steel in 1844 or so, if I recall.
Samurai armor consisted mainly of small laquered leather "scales" or plates varying from 1"-2" in length and approximately 1" in width. These were woven tightly together with cords of silk and would articulate smoothly to offer much mobility. Larger plates of similiar construction was often worn on the shoulder-upper arm area for added protection. Underneath was worn a thick "gambeson" like coat made from multiple layers of silk. Far more than just a "stufffed" jacket, this coat alone offered excellent protection. The layering of the silk acted much like today's composite body armor. As each layer to be penetrated needed the same force applied to penetrate, whatever was trying to pass through would loose velocity at each layer it passed through, hopefully stopping it before penetration. The Europeans had developed what was known as the "padded jack", commomly worn from the high medieval times into the early Renaisance. Unlike the crappy padded armor we are used to by D&D and other role-playing games, it was known to stop arrows and prevent most slashing attacks from penetrating. I've seen secondary sources siting this and have seen an example of it's proof with a live archer and a bodkin. Unfortunately for the Europeans, silk was expensive and fairly difficult to come by and the design used mostly finely woven linen, accepting of course those who could afford the later. Still effective but not as much as the silk. The resulting design was quite a bit thicker and very prone to rot and infestation, bedbugs, lice, you name it... and I totally digress, sorry
You can think of Samurai armor as hardened, lacquered leather scale-mail with a coat of layered silk, usually "quilted" to prevent the layers from slipping, worn underneath. Or just ignore my rant entirely and hurl yourself into Dwagin's link... probably the best
... I was afraid someone was asking about the Samuari class from PnP for a moment. Offically the worst base class in all of DnD 3.x, made so weak it literally cannot even be justified with RP because it is less effective than EXPERT, an NPC class.
Japanese bladesmithing stems from Chinese blacksmithing, and is often considered an extremely rigid, precise process, involving folding and forge-welding the steel many times over to create a laminated blade. In the past, it was typically assumed that more folds resulted in a higher quality blade. However, in modern times it is widely agreed that folding the steel past a certain point will actually decrease the effectiveness of the sword, resulting in a blade so thinly folded that it approaches the same effectiveness as a solid piece of metal with no folds at all. The number of folds that 'optimize' the blade toughness and edge-holding ability vary between smiths and between blade thickness and types of metal.
Often Japanese bladesmiths would forge their blades out of multiple materials, rather than simply folding and forge-welding one type of steel to itself. Wrought iron, which is very durable and less brittle than steel, would sometimes be used for the spine of the blade, with extremely hard high-carbon steel forming the blade's edge. This process creates a highly impact-resistant blade with an extremely sharp edge. However, under heavy usage, the edge would be more prone to chipping than its European counterparts, which were typically designed to deal with heavier armor than Japanese blades.
I know that's from wikipedia, so I don't give it too much credence, but most of my information comes from others who have studied this at university and I am inclined to continue believing them until I can find someone with a higher authority (e.g. a Masters in the field).. I am trying to get one to post.
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... I was afraid someone was asking about the Samuari class from PnP for a moment. Offically the worst base class in all of DnD 3.x, made so weak it literally cannot even be justified with RP because it is less effective than EXPERT, an NPC class.
Depends if you mean Complete Warrior Samurai or OA Samurai.
Complete Warrior Samurai is OK, and you've even got Ronin.
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Is it true that samurai only drew their blade to strike and sheathing it directly after, thus "flash of blade" dead?
I've heard a very interesting story about how japan "defeated" gengis kahn by summoning a great big impossibly high wave as they all prayed at the same time...weather it was them who caused it or not who knows but makes you think a heck of a lot...
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tao_myst wrote:
Simon cowell is...I don't think I can say what he is on this forum :O
Is it true that samurai only drew their blade to strike and sheathing it directly after, thus "flash of blade" dead?
I've heard a very interesting story about how japan "defeated" gengis kahn by summoning a great big impossibly high wave as they all prayed at the same time...weather it was them who caused it or not who knows but makes you think a heck of a lot...
That was the Kamikaze, a storm that destroyed the fleet of Genghis Khan when he was waltzing his way to wipe Japan out as a sovereign nation.
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That's a style of combat, yes. It's also utterly impractical and useless in any sort of real combat. Many Martial Arts are less about fighting and more about showmanship and self discipline.
And you refer to the story of the Kamikaze, or "Divine Wind."
It's an interesting story, and a huge amount of the fuel that lulled Japan into thinking it was protected by the gods and could never be invaided or defeated in any sort of war. Indeed, the belief of their divine protection was much of what drove their commanders to opt to attack Pearl Harbor, thinking the Americans were too soft to opt for total war and that they would be protected from our retaliation. Turns out we proved them wrong. Kamikaze does not mean suicide warrior. It means Divine Wind. The Kamikaze pilots were named that in desperation, hoping for a greater power to stop the USA from crushing them.
What happened, was Genghis Khan and his army had to build boats to get to Japan, and had easily enough power to conquer them. The Japanese lords knew this and more or less hoped for a miracle. The got one. A Typhoon wrecked up Genghis Khans boats, and he never tried to attack again. They called the miracle Kamikaze.
I believe there was somewhere in the region of 20,000+ people on the boats at the time invading...harsh but also good for japan
I've seen naruto enough to know Jutsu means skill, i've seen Iai strike on ff9, hmm, what style did the samurai use? I've heard lots of stuff I dunno whats the true technique, specially when it gets to ninja vs samurai stuff alot of missing information in history..
folding the steel past a certain point will actually decrease the effectiveness of the sword, resulting in a blade so thinly folded that it approaches the same effectiveness as a solid piece of metal with no folds at all
This is the key statement. The part "past a certain point" is extremely key. What they are saying here is that up to a certain point, folding the steel makes it better than the European solid forge technique. The folding method basically worked on a bell curve. The best Japanese blacksmiths had figured out where the top of that bell curve was and folded their steel exactly the right number of times.
This is all assuming that Wikipedia is an accepted credential source.
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At least you're referring to some source. It would be really dandy if people actually referenced the historians and whatnot whose thesis they're citing. I mean, a guy posting on a gaming forum doesn't have much credibility on his own. >_>
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IronAngel wrote:
At least you're referring to some source. It would be really dandy if people actually referenced the historians and whatnot whose thesis they're citing. I mean, a guy posting on a gaming forum doesn't have much credibility on his own. >_>
Which is why I sent an e-mail for my University-accredited friend to post here.
And as for the folded steel, I believe they discuss that in the other source that I cited.
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I kinda understand the whole folds must be perfect thing, its all to do with energy on basically some magical level of nano, with the perfect amount of folds the energy that is the metal of the sword begins to resonate with itself, thus pwnage. Same with paper which is why you cannot fold it more than 7 times, tested and proven by TV.
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tao_myst wrote:
I kinda understand the whole folds must be perfect thing, its all to do with energy on basically some magical level of nano, with the perfect amount of folds the energy that is the metal of the sword begins to resonate with itself, thus pwnage. Same with paper which is why you cannot fold it more than 7 times, tested and proven by TV.
They've done it more than that. Someone wrote a thesis on it and demonstrated with a large amount of toilet paper.
Edit: And I'm not going to even pretend to understand the properties of metallic bonding involved.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Sun, Mar 22 2009, 9:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.
I kinda understand the whole folds must be perfect thing, its all to do with energy on basically some magical level of nano, with the perfect amount of folds the energy that is the metal of the sword begins to resonate with itself, thus pwnage. Same with paper which is why you cannot fold it more than 7 times, tested and proven by TV.
I call WTF on this. "The energy that is the metal of the sword"? My physics may be rusty, but I do seem to recall that energy and matter are two seperate things.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I'm not saying its magic, I'm just saying that there's alot modern physics chooses to be oblivious to. also I don't wanna bring it up here, scientists argue enough as it is about what they do know
Last edited by tao_myst on Sun, Mar 22 2009, 9:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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IronAngel wrote:
tao_myst wrote:
I kinda understand the whole folds must be perfect thing, its all to do with energy on basically some magical level of nano, with the perfect amount of folds the energy that is the metal of the sword begins to resonate with itself, thus pwnage. Same with paper which is why you cannot fold it more than 7 times, tested and proven by TV.
I call WTF on this. "The energy that is the metal of the sword"? My physics may be rusty, but I do seem to recall that energy and matter are two seperate things.
Energy and matter aren't entirely separate .... you do have the problem of the binding energy in a metallic substance, and the structure changes with the folding, as do the reactions of the de-localised electrons.
Drannok wrote:
A Katana is not some mystical perfect sword.
It's a unique feat of engineering to overcome poor metal qualities, but it's not like going to slice through steel and deflect bullets.
It's the culture and unique spirit behind the Samurai mythology that seems to make everyone believe it's the ultimate hand to hand weapon.
A basic steel broadsword, or hell, a mace is a better weapon really.
That's the point I was trying to get at
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tao_myst wrote:
E = MC2 Energy IS matter...
Yeah, but not in this context. In this context we are talking about electron binding energy and d-orbitals with pi electrons. We aren't converting baryonic matter straight to energy.
tao_myst wrote:
aye but if you get it resonating the delocalizing electrons infinatly replace eachother kind of thing, I can't explain it its just how it works!
They're waves ... is that what you mean?
Chances are if you can't explain it you're sing the wrong analogy.
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I apologise, I'd rather not try to explain it you'd think i'm nuts, so, to kick this back where it belongs, what colour was samurai armor then?? or we're there different varietys?
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tao_myst wrote:
hm, this is getting close to quantum I'm not sure I can answer that one, possibly overlaping dimensions may help but then I can't prove that.
YES that is exactly it, everything is waves, or rather variables ;) this is getting dangerously close to religion, back to topic?
Overlapping 'dimensions' does not help. The solutions to the Schrodinger Wave Equation may be Complex, but it does not effect any 'resonance' ... the closest thing you have is resonant frequency, which doesn't really help.
BSc(Adv.)(Hons.) for the win ... I knew studying science would pay off =D
tao_myst wrote:
I apologise, I'd rather not try to explain it you'd think i'm nuts, so, to kick this back where it belongs, what colour was samurai armor then?? or we're there different varietys?
Whatever colour it was dyed, I don't think there was a specific colour that everyone had to wear.
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Isn't that describing the choice of a quantums path, like the 2 slot experiment? If so they proved (and I can get referances) that observing the photon in that case, observing it changes the wave function.
Actually after reading all of the Schrodinger Wave Equation on wiki I'm rather confused, but I'm pretty sure that's relevant to part of it.
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tao_myst wrote:
Isn't that describing the choice of a quantums path, like the 2 slot experiment? If so they proved (and I can get referances) that observing the photon in that case, observing it changes the wave function.
Actually after reading all of the Schrodinger Wave Equation on wiki I'm rather confused, but I'm pretty sure that's relevant to part of it.
Um, no. The electron is a lepton - it may be a wave but it has mass. These are pi electrons resulting from hybrid d-orbitals that travel along the entire metallic structure. They are quantised, and their frequency does have an affect but there is no 'resonance' so as to make the sword stronger - the only resonance that really needs to be worried about is in the sigma-electrons.
Edit: Oh, and I don't think you're nuts.
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To get back on the topic I can only say this: Finaly a group of people that does understand European armours and weapons are far superiour. Yes the katana was the perfect weapon, For the purposes of the japanese such as slising trough unarmoured or badly(bamboo and leather) armoured folks.
In the case of folding metal your avarage european sword already has about 10 layers wich is done to purify the metal. Now for a nice weapon just try a european longsword(bastard sword/ hand an a half).
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this is getting dangerously close to religion, back to topic?
