AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Clerical Roleplaying & Religious Factions

This text might be a bit big, but anyway... I am seeking more "specialized" opinions (DMs and fellow players who lead religious factions) and I would like things to be read fully before anyone can post anything.

It is said that clerics are the extension of a deity, the deity's voice. As such, they are assumed to have a better understanding of their deity's dogma and how to better conduct a church.

Sure, in a religious faction, everyone can have their own interpretation of the dogma, but a cleric, exactly because he can call forth and channel the divine powers handed by his deity, is the one to really understand it.

As such, clerics are supposed to be heard and possibly not questioned, unless if by another fellow cleric, as both can be in direct contact with their deity (when praying for spells, they enter in communion with their deity) and know what the diety really wants.

In an ideal Forgotten Realms setting, clerics are leaders and are respected as such. Some are even feared or admired by the lay worshipers of a deity. Even those who might have an idea of a deity's dogma, will ultimately defer to the word of a cleric, especially if he is a High Priest/Priestess.

To quote what a friend wrote. His name is ommited, as I did not ask if I could post it here.

Quote:

<snip>

High priests mouths the words of the deity, and the followers better do as he says, because he has the god in his side. <snip> ...people begin to play smart ass, against a person who's supposed to be the extension of the god. There's to little faith involved in this and when it all comes to all, it's the god we follow by our faith

<snip>

We were talking about something specific, but that works in the context of this thread.

Leading a religious faction can be quite frustrating because many PCs refuse to see the authority, the power that a cleric holds. Usually there is an IC explanation (oftentimes said OOC, that "my character is proud", "my character does not take well to orders").

Should the respect of a cleric be earned through RP? If so, if a cleric PC is not respected enough by the members of his own faction, is the problem of the player behind said PC?

How can this kind of RP work at Amia?

Leaders of other religious factions, I want to know your take on it.

DMs, I want to know from you how far a cleric PC can go in imposing his power, his authority, simply based on the premisse that he is an extension of his deity - and how other players, non-clerics, are expected to act towards it.

Well, I'm only starting out leading one...but I've also played in other religious factions. It depends very much on the faith but for most of them:

1. Priests usually have final say. They will listen to their flock before making a pronouncement after praying for guidance. Having high wisdom, their way usually is the right way. That said, if not all followers are respectful to their leaders, usually the High Priest has several other faction members who are powerful enough to discipline said person (if its a "might is right thing").

2. We all know mechanically, Wizards/Sorcs are more powerful in PvP than clerics (usually) and SD's can be as well. If one of these two classes is lauding it over you because of game mechanics, best advice is, consult a DM to institute a "Divine Smackdown" from your god...it'll be a humbling experience for the darlings when they learn that your cleric's word, really is a Divine Right...XD....their roleplay should fall quickly into line then IC...and well, if it doesn't, do you really want that sort of player in your faction?

Clerics are pretty much the top-dogs of a god. Paladin? Blackgaurd (divine version), Champion of (___) ? All second-string to the Cleric. No divine classes at all? That's like joe-schmoe trying to argue catholosism with the Pope.

If a cleric starting preeching the wrong thing, then they can lose the powers thier god channels through them.

If a fighter, or Rogue, or sorcerer devout of a god starts getting things wrong... nothing will happen until they go to the Fugue. Then they wonder why they get declared False.

Edit: Make them go through an Atonement. *Nods*

Respect is always earned trough acts and such. Never had much problems with such things within the EO actually. Everyone's always gotten along to some extent, keeping their place in the ranks and so on.

I got no problem with some high level cleric getting disrespected by a fellow worshiper of a faith or someone of a different faith, as long as there's some IC reason behind it. Ofcourse there are consequences ICly. It's how we've done it in the EO.

If someone's badmouthing a cleric and they are both in the same faith, and the cleric's ranked higher up in the same organization, then consequences should naturally follow. But respect should always be earned ICly, not just because of the class.

Most of the time, if people come and demand respect and such either ICly or OOCly, cleric or no, and they haven't earned it.. they will damn sure never get it from any of my chars.

My Cleric Maioth for instance, won't get very offended by some random Kelemvorite not listening to him, if they aren't in the EO. Simple reason in his mind is that they aren't fit to be amongst their Lords elite, and he doesn't bother. IF they then were to say something insulting, he'd be prone to give them a talking to, or throw them out of the temple. Someone inside the EO ever disrespect a superior, and there were always talking to's or other forms of reprimand.

Depends a lot on the deity as well.

Clerics of Bane, for example, hold a very high status and outrank all other members within the Church. But Bane also demands a very strict and militaristic hierarchy and chain of command. The clerics have the final say, and going against an order given by a cleric may be treated as an act of heresy.

Other deities, such as Cyric, for example, might be completely different. Since Cyric encourages chaos and disorder, the act of ignoring a cleric's request could perhaps even be looked favourably upon by Cyric himself.

That's more than I actually know though.

The Elemental dieties dont really care what thier followers do

I think it really does depend on the faith. But, generally speaking, Clerics should be respected by other members of the faith. Though I agree with Mago a bit, gods like Cyric or Lolth, would probably find the disrespect of certain clerics by certain other faithfuls quiet comical and not take issue. Lolth is known to love seeing Drow take each other out to gain favor, rank, or save their own hides.

I know I listen to authority. If my Yathrin says something, and a Yath'abban is a smart arse, Yath'abban gets punished. However, if the Ulath'tallar contradicted her, she's not going to think:
"Oh, the High Priestess of Lloth on this Isle is an idiot - she doens't know the dogma of her god."
Instead, it seems so much more likely to think:
"Okay I got that wrong, but obviously not wrong enough for my god to pnish me for it."

Personally I am apt to always follow this authority - if a high school stunt old me that I was misunderstanding fundamental physics (without evidence) I would be less likely to believe him than if a PhD student did the same.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd think it would be the same as with any other faction, really. A cleric should not have more respect than a wizard leading one, it's really down to the characters in question. Respect should be earned by actions, I would not show respect to anyone who demands it based on rank, class or title.

If someone were to tell Valas that he has to respect them because of x, he would actually be even more disrespectful just to spite them. He thinks that people who have to use their position to force respect do it because they fail to actually do something to earn it, it's a sign that they don't deserve respect. They would not have to demand it if they had earned it. Anyone saying ''I am right because I speak for my god/because the dogma says I am!/just cause!'' would be seen as lacking a real argument, and as such dismissed.

As for not disagreeing with a cleric for being one, personally there are several cleric characters of high level and standing, that in my opinion should have fallen a long time ago for their actions. Kind of what Phaernun said, on amia taking the cleric class does not mean anything, what you rp does. One could completely ignore cleric rp, or even be a heretic and they would still keep their powers unless a dm decides to make them fall.

This is why I like the drow system. You actually have to go through IC testing to gain rank as a cleric.

Halen_Van wrote:

Clerics are pretty much the top-dogs of a god. Paladin? Blackgaurd (divine version), Champion of (___) ? All second-string to the Cleric.

As the cleric of a LG god, my character took paladins very seriously. They may not have "outranked" her, but as holy warriors and paragons of virtue, my character would have been very highly disposed to listen to them on matters of morality, and would have provided them any aid within her power if they said it was necessary for a holy mission.

(Obviously this was just my personal choice regarding character portrayal. I'm not implying this is how all LG clerics should act.)

---

As far as the original question goes, I think that characters who choose to follow lawful-aligned gods (plus Lolth) would be the most interested in making hierarchy a part of their roleplay.

I agree with Phearnun fully. That's the reason clerics aren't respected just for being what they are on Amia. To be honest, it's a damn good reason too.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Guys and Girls, pay attention to the question. The question is, if you're a Cleric Factional Leader of a Faction and your minion isn't following your will (who has a Divine Insight/Right from his or her God), what do you do?

One assumes that if they're the..Faction Leader, there's a good reason for it. In other words, the person isn't really playing their role of underling, or resents authority that much that they're not willing to respect the will of a priest who leads said faction.

In these situations, there's a few things you can do:

1. Diciplinary action (anything from stern telling off to laying the smackdown or whatever).
2. Does he/she listen to anyone else in the faction? If so, get them to talk to him/her/it
3. Toss them out of said faction
4. Ask for Divine Help (e.g., get DM to intervene in some mystical way, even if its subtle). I'm sure Cherrie is happy to do this..bug this DM!
5. Perhaps Player of PC doesn't realise just how hard a job it is to lead a faction (OOC they're not really getting how much work you do -for- them) tell them they've got a day to lead faction and hand them the reins, then watch them cringe...under the weight of responsiblity...

[EDIT: Whoever read it before I editted, especially if a DM, feel free to take this to PMs]

Sounds like an OOC squabble then rather than purely an IC one. In which case, I know when I had a similar issue (okay, it was a faction to faction issue), we sat down with DMs last year and resolved it. When it goes beyond just an IC issue and becomes more an OOC one, its time to sit down in the OOC room and discuss round a table, circle. The DMs make great mediators in these situations and can offer a firm ruling when its needed.

I will see what I can do about it.

I just am not sure about actions because I, as player, am unsure about whether or not a PC could claim to have the power that a cleric have.

It doesn't feel right to.. dunno.. enforce this, as we all know we cannot make people RP as we want.

I editted my previous post, but if anyone else that read it wish to discuss it, feel free to PM me.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

We'll just sacrifice them...*nodnod*

soundofastream wrote:

We'll just sacrifice them...*nodnod*

Far easier ^^

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Change your faith and convert?

BlackDahlya wrote:

Quote:

<snip>

High priests mouths the words of the deity, and the followers better do as he says, because he has the god in his side. <snip>

And thats why you should have listened to Malice more, and why you should listen to Ilphdiira more! ;)

SoaS, your questions and Phearnun's comments are related, as there are both IC and OOC sides to playing a cleric.

I assume that the question asks the IC consequences of disobeying a faction leader.

First of all, it assumes that you actually have a working faction. People who play the cleric as a combination of powers (OOC) cant be held accountable for failure to RP the faith since by definition they arent playing that way in the first place. You probably wouldnt let them join the faction in the first place. The best you could do is rail against them IC as disrespecting the will of the deity and questioning their understanding of doctrine. And maybe pointing a DM to them if they are in flagrant violation of the deity's codes (let them take the Fall).

If you do have a faction, like the Lolthites, Banites, Sallies or Kellies, of people who are seriously interested in RPing the faith, then you can do pretty much whatever you want as the head of the Church. I would argue for a gradual progression of disciplinary measures pretty much as outlined by Phearnun in his post. Again, if they get way out of line, you call a DM to hit them with a Fall token. Someone who is a serious RPer will take this and run with it and everyone involved will have a good time, even if the action is intense or even negative for the character. Naturally, the DMs and other faction members should provide oversight on the faction leader so that nobody gets all OOC about things.

Regarding Dri's original post, the faction leader should be established by RP. Just because another player has more levels doesnt mean that they are a better choice or even that they are more favoured by their deity. Spells come with advances in level, which are supposed to reflect RP (not just mindless accumulation of xp). That's a purely mechanical effect of the system and cant be used as an argument for greater divine favour. Again, a 30th level with no supporting RP may as well have a blank deity field and should be brushed off ICly (by which I mean, if they dont want to RP their religion/faction, why should you treat them as a member of it? treat them as some generic cleric). In other words, priestly authority should absolutely be earned through RP (though you should have a moderate number of levels to support it).

Gods don't lightly deny spells from mortals, because that directly reduces their own power. You can read about heresies in Power of Faerûn; it's most enlightening.

Being a cleric isn't an automatic guarantee of authority. Neither is it the necessary means to become a spiritual leader. All divine classes are quite qualified in gaining such authority. I wager there are scores of Tyrran paladins leading individual temples, shrines or orders around Faerûn. Monks are also typical spiritual leaders, often leading a monastery wich might very well house lower-ranked clerics. In the churches of Mystra and (I reckon) Azuth, mages are respected and it's not unlikely to find a wizard holding a higher religious position than a cleric, even commanding a local parish or several clerics. The same goes for bards and Oghma. In fact, any character of any class, be it PC or NPC class, can become a spiritual leader in that's how events turn out.

So no, being a cleric doesn't give you automatic IC authority over other members of your faith, though it's potentially a very influential springboard.

BlackDahlya wrote:

DMs, I want to know from you how far a cleric PC can go in imposing his power, his authority, simply based on the premisse that he is an extension of his deity - and how other players, non-clerics, are expected to act towards it.

You can go as far as you like In Character, within the boundaries of server rules. You cannot assume deific actions and say, OOC, that a god has spoken to your character. Your character can do this and more to influence, command, persuade or threathen fellow clergy and lay worshipers. The result, of course, depends altogether on how well you play your cards. No one's obligated to obey a spiritual or faction leader, though such insubordination might get you kicked from a private faction. For public factions, like the major churches in the module (Triad, Lathander, Kelemvor etc.), there's need for more compromise, obviously. But then, not many public churches are PC-run anyway; the Triadic Knights and Eternal Order, for example, are both just branches of the global church and not on top of the proper church hierarchy itself.

soundofastream wrote:

Guys and Girls, pay attention to the question. The question is, if you're a Cleric Factional Leader of a Faction and your minion isn't following your will (who has a Divine Insight/Right from his or her God), what do you do?

BURN THE HERETIC!

..Erf.. Sorry, had a bit of Ramla resurface.

*huggles Ramla* ..

IronAngel wrote:

But then, not many public churches are PC-run anyway; the Triadic Knights and Eternal Order, for example, are both just branches of the global church and not on top of the proper church hierarchy itself.

There are followers/clergy of Triadic gods in the setting that wouldn't get along with our factions at all.

Like those slavery-supporting followers of Tyr in Calimshan. <.<

Indeed. And the followers of Oghma, as another example, are seperated into two rival sides who argue about the status of the previous church head and the authority of the new one the other side has elected. There's strife and conflict in most large churches.

Xaviera wrote:

<snip>

IronAngel's first post wrote:

<snip>

What about if the one to start the faction was you, with your cleric PC?

What, exactly, are you asking?

As the leader of a private faction, you can control membership, obviously. That should be done In Character, of course. A PC faction does not represent the whole church, and one cannot expect the ruling of one sect govern the reactions of other clergymembers, such as NPCs in a temple somewhere.

I'll give you an example. Xavi is High Priestess of Sharess basically because nobody else is. I've RP'd the faith and I dont think anyone would disagree that she has the right to call herself that (unless DMs want to throw something at me as an event).

So, being there 'firstest with the mostest', she is the de facto leader and as such has some 'authority' to pronounce on Sharessan dogma. If someone else went around saying they were a 30th level Sharessan cleric and should be the High Priestess, I'd want to see some serious RP from them, in which case any resolution would come out of that, not simply out of who has more levels. I would be rather shocked if a DM told me that someone else was now High Priestess solely because they had more levels than Xavi.

Now, if someone wants to RP a different version of Sharessan dogma and stand up to Xavi about it, I'm all for it. Again, it's an RP opportunity. For example, Calishite Sharessin might support slavery, which Xavi would not. Or a Sharran could try to pass as a Sharessin to corrupt the faithful (even more so

).

There have been a number of people who've joined the Sharessan 'faction' (such as it is), but with few exceptions (darianyr is the main one who comes to mind) havent really RP'd the faith much. As faction leader, I would expect any member who actually participates in the faction RP to toe the line to some degree and go along with what Xavi says, but Sharess isnt exactly known for her militancy on matters of dogma. (As I said earlier, someone who doesnt RP the faith - whether inside or outside the faction - has no leg to stand on in terms of their authority and is simply a Cleric of Blank.)

If an inferior gets out of hand, some disciplinary measures (no pun intended) might be necessary, but ultimately it would be an RP decision as to whether the person knuckles under or becomes a heretic and starts a schismatic faction (New Reformed Church of Sharess, anyone?). As faction leader you can probably expel them from the faction, though it might not be a bad idea to consult with a DM to avoid any OOC issues. Whether a DM decides to Fall them is their decision, but either way you (and they) are left to RP the IC consequences of desertion, heresy or schism.

The answer, to me anyway, is that authority is granted through RP. Authority can be abused (I'm talking ICly, not OOCly) and if it is, those lower down the ladder can always call for a replacement - RPing out the process - if they dont want to bow before their superior. In a large faction with good RP, this shouldnt be a problem. In a small faction, I'd take it to a DM just to be on the safe side.

IronAngel wrote:

In the churches of Mystra and (I reckon) Azuth, mages are respected and it's not unlikely to find a wizard holding a higher religious position than a cleric, even commanding a local parish or several clerics.

Indeed true, a good point to make. Similarly, in the church of Silvanus, Druids hold the highest rank, his Clerics are second to the Druids. Granted, Druids are Clerics, just specialty Clerics, but you get the idea.

Quote:

Granted, Druids are Clerics, just specialty Clerics, but you get the idea.

*rage*

Noooooooooooooooooooo

Last edited by Moridan_X on Sat, Mar 28 2009, 1:20 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Your probably going to get a lot of -clerics are the top of the list stuff on the thread-, but on Amia, they aren't. Amia is one of the servers where clerics are scrutinized and degraded as they don't exist. Not only do the clerics face such horrid RP, Deities get their share as well.

Any cleric is -instantaneously- more respectable than any warrior. Clerics are one of the most difficult classes to RP because their guidelines are pretty strict. Clerics aren't dead-raising machines or buffing maniacs as they are made out to be, and they are especially not the useless guy in back that most DND groups refer to them as. Clerics are simply the most powerful class in the game, and on NWN RP-wise.

Quote:

Should the respect of a cleric be earned through RP? If so, if a cleric PC is not respected enough by the members of his own faction, is the problem of the player behind said PC?

Respect is earned through their training and dedication. Clerics start out as men and are given a calling by the Deity that requires them. You don't -register- to get into cleric schooling. Temples are widely abused and assumed to welcome -all- people/things, when in fact they don't. Your faction -should- respect your cleric, and if they don't, they are probably not loyal, or they don't know cleric RP too well.

Clerics are usually very conservative with their magic, not using every spell in the book to buff some fighter they don't even know. In any book I've read, the clerics resorted to casting on very rare ocassions, and only when in danger or attempting to communicate with another being. Walking around with darkvision/true seeing/spell resistance/greater magic weapon all day? Yeah right, lol... That sounds like OOC: I know there will be an invisible guy walking by at any moment now so I'm going to just walk around with true seeing to abuse the system and be completely unstoppable cuz I want to know everything that happens. Plus, I like feeling the sensation of knowing that the guy can't hide from me cuz my character is God, just liek me. Plus, I liek using a level 6 spell with the snap of a finger, it makes me even more Godly.

Quote:

Leaders of other religious factions, I want to know your take on it.

I'll tell ya one thing, my little faction was asked a few questions, and we answered one of them as following Lathander and Tyr's guidelines. Within seconds we were branded as mindless religious zealots. I've tried preaching, as well as seen it, but through each time I've only seen a poor RP reaction.

Quote:

- and how other players, non-clerics, are expected to act towards it.

they should definitely respect it/fear it.... Don't expect that kind of reaction though, hehehe. Expect heavy criticism.

Oh, and a High Priest would be considered level 9 cuz they can raise the dead, an extraordinary feat, not an assembly line.

//if ur lookin' for some back-up, I'd be happy to help ya with ur faction thing

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For people sayin something about druids being specialized clerics.... I completely disagree, they are clearly Cleric-Wizards.

For the record, any book you have read isn't set on an island teeming with characters that probably could have wiped out the entire Faerunian Pantheon in the Time of Troubles.

I still think feeding them into the pit of ooze will soon set them on the straight and narrow *nodnod*

Yurell wrote:

For the record, any book you have read isn't set on an island teeming with characters that probably could have wiped out the entire Faerunian Pantheon in the Time of Troubles.

Necessary Inflation. They wouldn't because the Faerunian Pantheon would have been appropriately upscaled to accomodate the campaign's higher magic level.

Yurell wrote:

For the record, any book you have read isn't set on an island teeming with characters that probably could have wiped out the entire Faerunian Pantheon in the Time of Troubles.

Did I mention that Xaviera actually took over as avatar of Sharess? I have DM permission, I tell you!

*shifty eyes*

If we need some staffs of love we'll give you a call

Now, from my point of view if you're going to run a religious faction it should be a religious PC in charge. Anything else is second rated.

That's the (original) case with the Salandrans. (Times have changed a bit over the last 2 years) Originally I stated that only a cleric will ever be in charge of the faction simply because it is a religious faction and anything short of an epic cleric isn't cut out for the job. Recently I've been giving a player who wants a chance at being top dog the cold shoulder from an IC perspective simply because the character isn't a cleric or even a high level paladin/CoT. With the Banites I know it was very similar, back in the day if you stuffed around with Darthion he'd simply cut your head off and throw you out stamping your arse with the heretic logo.

But... I'll admit it varies on the god. If your deity encourages strife and chaos then you can't set yourself a seat of gold. Mago gave a great example with Cyric, it'd be very similar with followers orcish deities; Everyone pays attention to the Gruumsh clergy but if they feel the Gruumsh clergy isn't doing a good enough job, they'll simply kill off the current priests for being weak and replace them with a new set of priests or shamans.

But... it'd also depend on the society your character is in. There's been so many occasions in the past I've felt like utterly bitch slapping a Lolthite Drow priestess stupid for being so stupid with both my Drow(s) and Orog character... but if you do that you've signed your own death warrant. The Yath outrank everything in the city and their saying is final.

Anyways, summary. Yes clerics should have more say in a religious faction then non clerics. But how much extra say they get it determined by the deity in question and the culture in which they worship the deity.

Also, Moridan X, Iron already covered every point you did, and unfortunately he is quite correct, and your view, is, uh, not.

As well, your topic is full of "If you don't do it my way you suck, are metagaming, godgaming, bad RPers" etc etc... most all of your posts are like this and it makes me go "ew", man. I'd lighten up and revise your posting.

Someone made a point that clerics should be conservative with their spellcasting. I'll say now that almost EVERY cleric on Amia is conservative with their magic. I'm extremist with my cleric when it comes to this, I even preach (more like brag) to other Salandrans and other players in Cordor that a cleric understands that their powers are gifts and shouldn't be flaunted like what the wizards do.

But, religions work on Amia like they work in real life: The shepherd has to tend to his/her flock and keep them in line. If a cleric isn't doing their job then their wards lose faith in them and their deity loses power. It can be a cut-throat business but you have to make sure ICly the faithful stay on track and you have to do what's neccessary in order for it to happen.

For Jack to the other Salandrans, its his "I can kill you if I want to, don't feth with me" attitude. For Lolthites its "I'm a woman, I am Noble and Its permanently that time of the month so don't feth with me" attitude. You've just got to find the groove that works and go with it.

Darthion flaunts his spells rather excessively.

Does that make him a bad cleric?

Yes, but that's his intention isn't it?

Darth has a reason though, not every cleric has the entire server on their heels.

I would think that Darth is a cleric of a proud god... makes sense that he flaunts it.

One of the issues is that the Gods we have in the setting draw their inspiration from so many different sources. The capricious gods of the Grecian/Roman pantheon, the elementally inspired deities of more 'simple' origin, the absolutist monotheistic gods drawn from Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Huge range of conflicting styles of worship to reconcile here, often these styles can be found within the same religions faction depending of the attitude, history and alignment of the characters the faction accommodates.

That said, Clerics should make the final decision in matters of faith perhaps, not always in tactics, leadership and inter-faction relations. Paladins are the generals aren't they? Clerics are the ones that give the cause its righteousness.

Clerical Roleplaying & Religious Factions

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