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Stop exploiting the AI. I see alot of you doing it.

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Those who know what I'm on about; stop. And don't mention the details in this thread.

Those who don't; you're fine. It's pretty obvious if you're doing it that it's "Not Good", so you won't be doing it accidently.

I've been soloing the beholders for a while using a black blade of disaster and some careful maneuvering to avoid those anti-magic cones. I take it that's not what you're talking about.

Last edited by Magiros on Mon, Mar 30 2009, 8:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I for one, were doing this thingy.. Luckily enough I was asked to stop it before just ban or anything else.

What I mean is I didnt even know there was this rule that said no to "this thingy" shouldnt be used. Honestly.

Is there perhaps a link or topic anywhere in the forums where you can look what is wrong to do?
I know what you cant do in general, but never expected that mage couldnt use what he had to get advantage over their enemies. Thought I do understand why with beholders you cant use "this thingy" , making the game more realisitic with lore.

BBoD and invis to farm is cheep, im sure everyone agrees on that.

I dont want BBoD or Invis to get nerfed, im sure everyone agrees on that.

So lets not do things the cheep way, and keep our spells, rather then be cheep, and force them to change our spells.

Take a buddy with you, or simply use spells that dont make you feel dirty.

silly question, how can they open doors without hands.

corypx wrote:

silly question, how can they open doors without hands.

Long tongues.

Xenos wrote:

BBoD and invis to farm is cheep, im sure everyone agrees on that.

I dont want BBoD or Invis to get nerfed, im sure everyone agrees on that.

So lets not do things the cheep way, and keep our spells, rather then be cheep, and force them to change our spells.

Take a buddy with you, or simply use spells that dont make you feel dirty.

.

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Magiros wrote:

BBOD + invis

That's illegal? O.o

Sure, it's cheap. But isn't it the intelligent approach, realisticly away, to the challenge presented in those narrow tunnels?

Do they not attack the BBoD? If so, how is it different to invis + BBoD anywhere else?

Last edited by Dev Disco on Sun, Mar 29 2009, 21:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I must say I agree with Dako. This should be corrected in the AI scripting or critter spell list.

I'd say that's pretty legit, summon plus invis is... kind of the point of those spells?

I'd blame the monsters/ai/area.

...wasn't this actually brought up months ago, and corrected then?

Edit: It was

Quote:

Except any powergamer who thinks that';s the fastest way to 30 needs to turn in their powergaming bage.

Besides, it's fixed.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... od&start=0

I've used invis with a summon twice. Didn't know it would be considered exploiting AI. Really when you look at it it's a perfection good way to do things. Cheap yes I agrue, smart yes that too.

When you're a wizard you need to go about things smartly. Sent the pet ahead to attract all the enemies then run up after it throwing fireballs. Go invis and let a summon clear the way hoping by the gods that they don't spot you. Which I most mentioned happened a fair few times and nearly got me killed. It's not an as laid back and easy way as it sounds, well not always. Wouldn't know about the black blade of desaster summon, never had it so far.

Lets not start nerving things. Cause really I can name several more things with other classes and in other ways that could be called exploiting the AI. And the last thing we want this Amia being nerfed into the depths of oblivion. I say it's just a thing we have to live with despite our different opinions on the matter.

Dakotaen wrote:

Magiros wrote:

BBOD + invis

That's illegal? O.o

Sure, it's cheap. But isn't it the intelligent approach, realisticly away, to the challenge presented in those narrow tunnels?

Well, doesn't seem too far from GS and Summon. <.<;; You'd get the same effect I think?

I'm suspecting that WonWon means something a -little- worse. Like, a glitch or loophole in the AI being abused. Okay, a -lot- worse if thats the case.

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

Give the mages more Banishment spells. It works surprisingly well on BBOD's. Like 9/10 times.

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

Oh, so they're attacking the thing that's actually harming them ad no the shady character in the corner?
I think it's a fairly reasonable tactic ... one that I never use, though.

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

Pino?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l7zRpVq57o

Yurell wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

Oh, so they're attacking the thing that's actually harming them ad no the shady character in the corner?
I think it's a fairly reasonable tactic ... one that I never use, though.

See...now...if it's fighting the risk and ignoring the one trying to stay hidden that isn't being an immediate threat [short of being the summoner]

... I still think WonWon's talking worse <.<;;

I rather hope he's talking about something worse. Because there is no way that they can call being invis while using a BBoD an offence in any way, when the "nerf" of GS specifically made it so you become invis.

If it's a clever use of corners/doors, again, I don't think this can be called an exploit. At least, not an illegal one. Use of terrain to gain an advantage is part of the game.

Really, it'd likely be more helpful if the dm's just SAID what the alleged exploit is, because it's genuinely possible that people might be doing it who just don't realise that it's an illegal exploit. Not saying what it is, really means yoo can't do anything to someone you catch doing "it", because they can legitimately say that they had no way of knowing what ya'll were talking about.

Cori wrote:

I rather hope he's talking about something worse. Because there is no way that they can call being invis while using a BBoD an offence in any way, when the "nerf" of GS specifically made it so you become invis.

If it's a clever use of corners/doors, again, I don't think this can be called an exploit. At least, not an illegal one. Use of terrain to gain an advantage is part of the game.

Really, it'd likely be more helpful if the dm's just SAID what the alleged exploit is, because it's genuinely possible that people might be doing it who just don't realise that it's an illegal exploit. Not saying what it is, really means yoo can't do anything to someone you catch doing "it", because they can legitimately say that they had no way of knowing what ya'll were talking about.

WonWon wrote:

Stop exploiting the AI.

Those who know what I'm on about; stop. And don't mention the details in this thread.

Those who don't; you're fine. It's pretty obvious if you're doing it that it's "Not Good", so you won't be doing it accidently.

I think if it's obvious, it's pretty bad AND they don't want to give it away prompting more of the absolute obvious "no-no".

Clever in their wording. Very specific. Precise. Foresight!

Yurell wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

Oh, so they're attacking the thing that's actually harming them ad no the shady character in the corner?
I think it's a fairly reasonable tactic ... one that I never use, though.

"Hmm, I am an incredibly intelligent beholder.I understand magic. This beast here, he's summoned. I've seen my mage dispel one already and another came back. IT also might be a big black floating rift thing that I can't seem to hurt, but holy crap, it just killed by buddy.

Wait, who';s that shady dude standing over there? Ah ha. Clarly the mage controlling these. All it takes is one little eye zap and the bastard's dinner. I have an open shot too. It'd fix all my problems.

Nah, lemme keep chomping on this funny little black sword thi- oh god it stabbed me blargh I'm dead."

HellScourge wrote:

Give the mages more Banishment spells. It works surprisingly well on BBOD's. Like 9/10 times.

When i've been at the Beholders, my BBoD has been dissmissed to nearly, and sometimes the actual amount of spell uses i have of it. >.>

Quote:

If it's a clever use of corners/doors, again, I don't think this can be called an exploit. At least, not an illegal one. Use of terrain to gain an advantage is part of the game.

...^ If this can be considered an exploit and not a tactic, all i have to say is how sad some things are getting.... what are you supposed to do? "Oh look, beholders with AoE's, including ones that dispel all my magic, i guess i should make sure i stay in range of that dispel ray so they can easily see and kill me with a death ray."

Quote:

Those who know what I'm on about; stop. And don't mention the details in this thread.

Those who don't; you're fine. It's pretty obvious if you're doing it that it's "Not Good", so you won't be doing it accidently.

...-How- are people going to know if they're exploiting something which they may not know is an exploit, if you do not tell them, unless they have some psychic ability letting them know they wont.

Quote:

Really, it'd likely be more helpful if the dm's just SAID what the alleged exploit is, because it's genuinely possible that people might be doing it who just don't realise that it's an illegal exploit. Not saying what it is, really means yoo can't do anything to someone you catch doing "it", because they can legitimately say that they had no way of knowing what ya'll were talking about.

"So you won't be doing it accidently." - As i said, people aren't psychic and might not know.

\/

"Not saying what it is, really means yoo can't do anything to someone you catch doing "it", because they can legitimately say that they had no way of knowing what ya'll were talking about."

I'd rather not advertise an exploit, publically, on the forums if I can avoid it.

And i'd rather point out that if Mages are whining about not being able to Farm beholders i'll just scream.

Could a DM just give me a yes or no as to whether or not it's against the rules to use the BBoD and invisibility to hunt beholders. Trying to understand all the subtext in this thread is like me trying to understand what my girlfriend's actually thinking. Impossible.

EDIT:

Nekhy wrote:

Let's clarify a bit: if you are under known effect that would make the beholders not attack you (such as HIPS or GS, to think of two) and they start attacking you when that effect ends, you are not exploiting anything.

If, however, they should attack you by all logic but yet you did some odd trick that caused them not to attack you, then you are exploiting the AI.

If you DID do it by accident, it's a good idea to inform a DM of what happened so that you don't get banned for doing something by accident.

Are beholders supposed to be able to see invis but they don't? Someone just tell me. A PM would be great.

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

a.k.a.: The Scouts should see you in Invis and omnomnom your balls off. AI currently does not.

WonWon wrote:

I'd rather not advertise an exploit, publically, on the forums if I can avoid it.

You left out the "How" in it, and just said there was an exploit there and so on.. He did that for a reason people! Now more probably know about it than earlier and go "ooooh! Gotta try that one.."

Reading the second post+ just made me facepalm and grin impishly. No posting bug abuses!

TormakSaber wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Give scouts See Invis, then invisible mage disappears.

Those Scouts have dragonsight; it's an AI issue which someone feathered in Holland is working on.

a.k.a.: The Scouts should see you in Invis and omnomnom your balls off. AI currently does not.

ohhhhh.... I've been doing this recently ..... I feel dirty.

So, does the beholder majesty also see invis but the engine doesn't make it work?

Majesty doesnt open the door, D-fin, thats why.

I was with some mages doing this the other day, first time i had ever seen it. I said my piece about how cheap i thought it was, and was met with "well, its the best way to kill them here, so, thats what we do". HAving never made a mage toon, i left it at that.

So does this fall under the "if you are doing something for lots of reward with almost no noticeable risk, only because the game mechanics allow you to do something that otherwise would never happen, it is an exploit" category? It seems like it meets the criteria.

I'm going to assume he's talking about something else for two reasons.

An almost identical thread was posted about six months ago and Disco fixed fixed the issue (why the Beholders don't just use Mordenkainen's Disjunction never made sense to me anyway).

Secondly, I was in Beholders last week, having gone straight there from a reset, when an Invisible person in robes came running past. I didn't have time to see their name, just that they were clearly a mage. Normally I would have kicked up a stink about someone overtaking me, but I was waiting for the rest of my party to arrive and, since I didn't now who it was anyway, I let it slide because they were likely just going to do Majesty and leave (I didn't say anything in /dm because I figured he would spend at least a few minutes fighting the Majesty and by the time my party arrived and made our way there it would have respawned). Just before the party arrived I briefly heard the combat music. We set off just in time to see the Invisible guy leave, but again, none of us saw who he was. What made this memorable is the fact that it happened so fast - the whole incident, between his entrance and exit from the area, took less than 3 minutes... and our whole party, with 2 BBoD (both cast multiple times for the fight, I used 6), took long enough that some of the BBoDs were unsummoned because their timers had run out.

In other words, solo mage kills Majesty in a matter of seconds. Party of four, including two mages, takes at least 7 minutes. Maybe he has a very high FoD DC, or maybe he knows a quick-kill trick...

Another possibility of what "exploiting the AI" could mean - that mage didn't kill anything on the way, he just ran past all the spawns, including one that blocked the passage on his way back, and I'm fairly sure the only thing in the boss room he killed was the boss.

So lame, Beholders are super-intelligent and I think are supposed to have TS. If someone is caught being a tool and 'sneaking/cheating' in to Boss farm then just take all their gold and gear. If they complain, take half their character levels. If they leave the server then good riddance. Sick of this crap, Smite their arse good.

Are you allowed to hide out of sight of the Beholder while your BBoD tears into them? Because then there's no way they can know that you're there.

One could also argue the point that because Beholders rarely turn around, attacking from behind is an exploit. In my experience once the Fighter, or BBoD, engages them they ignore the sneaks, archers and other fighters that can attack from behind with near impunity. They don't even need to hide. Of course, you then have the sticky argument that on the one hand you are exploiting the AI because you know they won't turn around to attack you and on the other hand attacking from behind is exactly what some Classes are designed for.

WonWon wrote:

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Best solution yet.
At least until someone fixes the AI.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Best solution yet.
At least until someone fixes the AI.

I'd rather have dm's doing rp plots and stuff than playing parents with the one or two people who exploit bugs..so whoever is doing this bug, whatever this bug may be, just stop and don't ruin the game for everyone else because you want that +6 belt of strength or whatever you're farming the beholders for

ILoveIceCream wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Best solution yet.
At least until someone fixes the AI.

I'd rather have dm's doing rp plots and stuff than playing parents with the one or two people who exploit bugs..so whoever is doing this bug, whatever this bug may be, just stop and don't ruin the game for everyone else because you want that +6 belt of strength or whatever you're farming the beholders for

Mhm.
DM's should invent a Beholder named "Control" rumored to be a god of beholders who only shows face when kin are severly in danger- aka- exploiter slayer

Naw, seriously, we shouldn't need that.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Best solution yet.
At least until someone fixes the AI.

I had this happen on another server about 6 years ago which I was DMing for at the time.. A particular player kept soloing some Aranea caves, so I had a dev create a particular Bebilith for me with some ridiculously high stats and alot of immunities.. (One in particular being 30 / - Magical resist to counter IGMS spam, along with death magic and more health than I can remember

).

Popped the Bebilith there when he got towards the end, it also had 'Very Fast' speed, coupled with haste.. I possessed it, proceeded to almost kill him, and he logged out during combat (which was bannable - As the consequences for death on that server were extreme. You'd drop -all- of your equipped gear on a corpse, along with your gold, and you'd lose a level, and the XP was extremely brutal to attain.)

Thus it fixed the problem, and I had alot've fun doing it.

I'm having serious deja-vu about the original post by Wonwon.

I could have sworn I've seen it before.

Dwagin wrote:

I'm having serious deja-vu about the original post by Wonwon.

I could have sworn I've seen it before.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... od&start=0

There, provided by Zante.

TormakSaber wrote:

"Hmm, I am an incredibly intelligent beholder.I understand magic. This beast here, he's summoned. I've seen my mage dispel one already and another came back. IT also might be a big black floating rift thing that I can't seem to hurt, but holy crap, it just killed by buddy.

Wait, who';s that shady dude standing over there? Ah ha. Clarly the mage controlling these. All it takes is one little eye zap and the bastard's dinner. I have an open shot too. It'd fix all my problems.

Nah, lemme keep chomping on this funny little black sword thi- oh god it stabbed me blargh I'm dead."

I agree in principle, but taken further the logic of this argument would pretty much make levelling impossible, especially in party. Any monster with an ounce of sense who sees two big beefy guys with large swords in fullplate, a ponce in a chainshirt with a lute, a nerdy or pretty guy in a robe, and a wiry wee bloke in black...is not going to spawn in. Fwwwuuuuck that.

Uberuce wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

"Hmm, I am an incredibly intelligent beholder.I understand magic. This beast here, he's summoned. I've seen my mage dispel one already and another came back. IT also might be a big black floating rift thing that I can't seem to hurt, but holy crap, it just killed by buddy.

Wait, who';s that shady dude standing over there? Ah ha. Clarly the mage controlling these. All it takes is one little eye zap and the bastard's dinner. I have an open shot too. It'd fix all my problems.

Nah, lemme keep chomping on this funny little black sword thi- oh god it stabbed me blargh I'm dead."

I agree in principle, but taken further the logic of this argument would pretty much make levelling impossible, especially in party. Any monster with an ounce of sense who sees two big beefy guys with large swords in fullplate, a ponce in a chainshirt with a lute, a nerdy or pretty guy in a robe, and a wiry wee bloke in black...is not going to spawn in. Fwwwuuuuck that.

Why don't all spawns go straight for the guy with lowest AC / DR then? Stuff the fighters, kill the guys that are easiest to kill.
I know a lot of the time I'd go straight for the mage.

Why does this only happens at beholders? Using a summon and invis anywhere else is alright?

Zante wrote:

Why does this only happens at beholders? Using a summon and invis anywhere else is alright?

That's a fair question ... so we're not allowed to be invis using BBoD if any of the spawned creatures can see invis?
Or is it just the Beholders that are too stupid to go after the mage and everyone else does?

I must confess I would like some clarity on this as well, as its a new one on me.

I wouldnt say that there isnt any risks beign invis. Its the same risk with every monster.

If you get too close they see you and attack.

Sure some monsters like Brog Giant mages have true seeing and can see you. But they really arent that strong to take full buffed mage down with a buffed summon/familiar.

The antimagic cone has very loooong range, it dispells and makes you unable to cast if your not careful enough to avoid it. And if your very unlucky the beholders do their thing and you get paralysed/stunned/confused and thats pretty much it, your dead.

Sure I have done what this topic is about, because I didnt know it earlier, but during that time I did die at least 2 times or even more during hunt. Thats why I usually have a party with me, so they can ress me if I die, or other way around.

What WonWon told me was that a certain spell combo makes the 40 int beholders who think rationally make an "illogical" action, trying to kill a blade which cant take dmg. So its more of a lore matter I believe.

Also I would like to point out another fact. Some of the beholders paralyse you or stun you, then other beholder does antimagic cone. Your free. Wasnt that a irrational action as well, why would 40 int beholders free a victim who can kill them?

Anyhow, I am not to arque with DM. If its a no, then its a no. Simple as that.

I'll fix it soon. Uce and I figured out why these things work when I test them and not on Amia... I don't have the Amia spell changes in my AI test module, so my TS spells are truly True Sight and work fine. On Amia they cast a different effect (See Invisibility) which I never thought of before. Easy to fix now I know what's happening.

Lascivar wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

WonWon wrote:

If you do it, a DM might just possess the monsters and make them act intelligently to your detriment. They are, afterall, beholders; extremely intelligent, logical, rational creatures.

Best solution yet.
At least until someone fixes the AI.

I had this happen on another server about 6 years ago which I was DMing for at the time.. A particular player kept soloing some Aranea caves, so I had a dev create a particular Bebilith for me with some ridiculously high stats and alot of immunities.. (One in particular being 30 / - Magical resist to counter IGMS spam, along with death magic and more health than I can remember

).

Popped the Bebilith there when he got towards the end, it also had 'Very Fast' speed, coupled with haste.. I possessed it, proceeded to almost kill him, and he logged out during combat (which was bannable - As the consequences for death on that server were extreme. You'd drop -all- of your equipped gear on a corpse, along with your gold, and you'd lose a level, and the XP was extremely brutal to attain.)

Thus it fixed the problem, and I had alot've fun doing it.

"Asshattery" is never the way to solve the problem. Makes YOU feel better, sure, but I doubt it's winning you awards in the PR category. I feel I can speak as an expert on that one.

Arabel DMs used to posess critters too and obliterate entire parties if they were feeling players powergamed. Needless to say some players quit after such incidents, including myself.

Heh, it wasn't a common thing. Said player was already disliked among the other DMs. His RP consisted of one liners or "*snicker*" "*smirk*" at everything, and really didn't contribute to anyone's storyline in the slightest.

When logging from the server, he earnt himself a permanent ban. Generally we only did it for one day or so, to make people realize they shouldn't log off during combat to avoid death, but we came to a unanimous decision that the server was better off without the pest.

I got spanked by Sune and Edgewalker when I did that as a DM here, and I was far more gentle. I just added some more of the usual spawns when people were loot running after I gave a few warnings that RP isn't an option.

NB: I think they were right, btw.

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