AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I like OOC restrictions. I think they are cool, and its a good way to help balance things as well.

It allows the devs to give rewards to people going above and beyond, like the 10 SD shop, for example. I love that it represents the idea that some clown who wasnt of a certain ability in shadow dancing just wouldnt be able to use the weapon or armor effectively.

Oh, and i think triple X should be able to use her ring.

That shop represented ...ach: can't say anything nice, so...

Perhaps a decision then ...
Is it acceptable to 'wear' (i.e. RP wear not actually equip) OOCly restricted items just not gain benefits from them?

I'm still a no until convinced that the last post I made in this thread will never happen.

Yossarin wrote:

corypx wrote:

thats a magic ring thats only is for power, this is a question about a deity ring, like the god might get pissed if you put it on and smite you, powers on the ring or not because its thier symbol.

No, this is a question about the general nature of OOC restrictions on items. The fact that a deity ring was at the center was either coincidental, or merely relevant because it was the catalyst for Xaviera's broader question.

That one? Or the one before it?

Yossarin wrote:

Xaviera wrote:

I'm asking, at the most general level, can a character *emote* that they are wearing/carrying an OOC-verboten item without OOCly putting it into an active slot (maybe even leaving that slot empty so as not to get the benefit of something else at the same time). If it is a case of, say, not knowing the command word to activate the powers, then they should be able to, right? Because then it will just be a normal unpowered item to them.

Player: "Can I pretend to wear this Ring of Regen + 5, only it doesn't work because I don't have the command word?"

DM: "Sure, why not?"

Player: "Yay!"

*Player gets narced on by another player during a PvP incident, where the player claims to have DM-approved Regen +5 and miraculously got right back up after a RP'd beatdown*

DM: "What the hell is this about me approving Regen +5?"

Player: "You said I could emote wearing the ring, but the powers wouldn't work unless I knew the command word. Well, I talked to Methusaleh Darkstaff, and he rolled Lore + 60 and he told me what the command word was!"

DM: "How the (censored) did he know what it was?"

Player: "Because he has the lore skill! And you told me I could use it if I knew the command word!"

DM: "No, technically, I told you couldn't use it because you didn't know the password, but still..."

Player: "UNFAIR! DMs never let players do anything!"

Etc.

Just flat out state - you can ICly put these items on but they do nothing. They will never do anything. Under no circumstance will they do anything.

Otherwise, it seems to me a good way to test whoever is infiltrating your cult ... "Here, put on this Ring of Bane" and when they can't you kill them. Or force one onto their hand when the Kellies capture them as proof that they're evil, because good cannot physically wear them.

Yurell wrote:

Just flat out state - you can ICly put these items on but they do nothing. They will never do anything. Under no circumstance will they do anything.

Otherwise, it seems to me a good way to test whoever is infiltrating your cult ... "Here, put on this Ring of Bane" and when they can't you kill them. Or force one onto their hand when the Kellies capture them as proof that they're evil, because good cannot physically wear them.

well the OOC restrictions are OOC are they not? so then IC no one would know of any restrictions, because other wise are they not saying you can use it as a Detect evil or what everspell just about, and I think they said IC you dont have to tell them jack about if your evil or not.

EDIT : found it http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31579&

corypx wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Just flat out state - you can ICly put these items on but they do nothing. They will never do anything. Under no circumstance will they do anything.

Otherwise, it seems to me a good way to test whoever is infiltrating your cult ... "Here, put on this Ring of Bane" and when they can't you kill them. Or force one onto their hand when the Kellies capture them as proof that they're evil, because good cannot physically wear them.

well the OOC restrictions are OOC are they not? so then IC no one would know of any restrictions, because other wise are they not saying you can use it as a Detect evil or what everspell just about, and I think they said IC you dont have to tell them jack about if your evil or not.

They are IC restrictions too, otherwise your character is a moron or walking around with a ring he can use, but doesn't.

Just a simple thought - Mythal the ring so that none of it's benefits are available (ie its just a ring with use restriction elf and an OOC nono for powers no longer available)

Yurell wrote:

corypx wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Just flat out state - you can ICly put these items on but they do nothing. They will never do anything. Under no circumstance will they do anything.

Otherwise, it seems to me a good way to test whoever is infiltrating your cult ... "Here, put on this Ring of Bane" and when they can't you kill them. Or force one onto their hand when the Kellies capture them as proof that they're evil, because good cannot physically wear them.

well the OOC restrictions are OOC are they not? so then IC no one would know of any restrictions, because other wise are they not saying you can use it as a Detect evil or what everspell just about, and I think they said IC you dont have to tell them jack about if your evil or not.

They are IC restrictions too, otherwise your character is a moron or walking around with a ring he can use, but doesn't.

we are both right till the DM says what happens IC if a ring is put on that the OOC restrictions you cant.

I think they will say nothing will happen or people will run around asking you to put on rings to see if your good or evil and based on what they are will use that as a IC reason to start PVP, just like what started to happen in the Detect evil days.

How about "Don't wear rings if you don't meet the OOC restrictions?"

Period. No wearing it IC. No "wearing it OOC" (???). Just don't wear it.

TormakSaber wrote:

How about "Don't wear rings if you don't meet the OOC restrictions?"

Period. No wearing it IC. No "wearing it OOC" (???). Just don't wear it.

isn't that impossible? cuz i see the restrictions through NWN standards, because it says, "Paladin only" or whatever on the bottom where it lists the bonuses

I have no idea what that post means.

EDIT: Learn to read an item description.

TormakSaber wrote:

How about "Don't wear rings if you don't meet the OOC restrictions?"

Period. No wearing it IC. No "wearing it OOC" (???). Just don't wear it.

The question of that is as someone stated before: The EO (for example) capture someone. Can they then try to force the ring onto that person to see if they're evil or not - if it can physically go on, they must be evil, but if it doesn't they're not?

That just seems like a really really lame way to check if someone is evil.

EO1: "Finally, we have him here! Now, Biggles! Fetch..... the ring!" Dun dun dunnnn!

EO2: "It won't fit on, m'lord!"

Bob McEvil: "That's because my fingers are too big, you idiots!"

EO2: "His fingers are too big, m'lord!"

EO1: "I think it's obvious what has happened. He has magically grown his fingers so that he will not be forced to wear our ring!"

EO2: "He's a witch! Burn him!"

The Cobbit wrote:

That just seems like a really really lame way to check if someone is evil.

It may be lame, but it's totally a reasonable way to do it ICly.

"Now, we could waste all this effort, expense and time putting you through arduous examination, or we could just shove this ring on your finger which would be much cheaper and more efficient."

IRL, if I have a choice between an easy way and a hard way that both end with the same result (e.g. calculating the the initial speed of a pole vaulter based on his maximum height using energy or momentum) I will choose the easy way every time (in that example, energy).

I deeply frown upon that method of alignment reading.

aurelius311 wrote:

I like OOC restrictions. I think they are cool, and its a good way to help balance things as well.

It allows the devs to give rewards to people going above and beyond, like the 10 SD shop, for example. I love that it represents the idea that some clown who wasnt of a certain ability in shadow dancing just wouldnt be able to use the weapon or armor effectively.

Oh, and i think triple X should be able to use her ring.

The SD shop was put in by previous DMs, who all... coincidentally happened to play SD after having split from Arelith, where the class was banned.

The SD equip restrictions have been one of the most controversial OOC restrictions on Amia, and I honestly can't see why they're still in place after all this time.

TormakSaber wrote:

I deeply frown upon that method of alignment reading.

I have no problem with saying that an OOC restriction means you cant wear it at all, ICly or OOCly. Either way of looking at it has IC consequences, which both Yoss and I have pointed out. If you go this way, you just have to say the same thing as has been said about detect alignment or telepathy or torture - along the lines of it doesnt work (or doesnt happen) unless everyone agrees to it OOCly. So you cant just try to shove a ring on someone's finger to determine their alignment.

It's an answer. I can live with it.

I don't really get what you're arguing about.

You want to wear a blessed deity ring, with an OOC restriction which you do not qualify for. In order to go around that restriction, you suggest that you remove the properties of the ring using mythals, and then you RP that it isn't actually blessed with the deity which supposedly blessed it.

Why would you still want to wear the ring, if so?

Wouldn't any other ring do just as well for that purpose, which didn't have the OOC restriction?

Quote:

The SD shop was put in by previous DMs, who all... coincidentally happened to play SD after having split from Arelith, where the class was banned.

Partially true.

The stuff was added at the time when you only needed SD 1 to get HIPS, before Shadow Jump ever existed. There's no doubt the gear there was esigned by the server's leading shadowdancers, FOR shadowdancers: I won't dispute that one for a second. The stuff was originally added to get people to take more than 1 SD for HIPS. Then HIPS was moved to level 6 and it started looking a bit redundant. Then shadow Jump got added, originally as simply a portal to Shadowscape, and then later as the actual Shadowjump you know today. Then it really went out of whack.

For the record, at the time, Arelith had not banned Shadowdancers, though i believe they've done so today with both RDD and SD. I think. I may be wrong. At the time, they changed it so that all SDs and RDDs needed applications for the class, and any current SDs and RDDs got "SD Tokens" and "RDD tokens" proving they were in fact legitly able to have the class. I think Nathan's SD token is still on his character file.

she wants to use the ring because she follows said person.

it also sounds like the OOC restriction kind of mess that up, cant show faith to your god, and if she says she has one on (just a ring with a symbol not the loot table one)they will say "it's a fake because I have the real ring and it says that god hates you and the bands you like"

one thing thats always ground my gears... in the rule books it specifically stated that half-elves are treated as elves when it comes to equipping elf only gear. I think this was players handbook or DM Guide. I dont know if this is applicable on Amia, but I always wanted to see all the Winya gear made only useable by elf/ half-elf.
Could just be the lore monkey on my back though

If the restrictions were removed, some of the SD gear, particularly some lvl 10 Armour and Rings, would suddenly be on everyone.

One thing I've always found strange is one of the Helms. A Lesser (I forget the name... Shadow Helm?) is available at level 4 SD, but no regular or Greater version ever becomes available.

Can't we just leave this OOC Restrictions thing as the status quo until something is ever done about it? I think most of us can agree that many of the OOC Restrictions are stupid and/or redundant, but allowing people to equip certain of these items under given circumstances is a classic slippery-slope scenario.

Also, Tormak you misread what someone said earlier. To the question "can't we just add the increased UMD requirements to the description?" you replied that the engine takes care of that anyway. I believe the question was based on earlier comments that in order for someone to use a restricted item they would need more UMD than the engine allows for said item based on it's properties. The question should have been "If an item's properties mechanically give it a UMD of, say, 25 but we don't want every man and his dog using it, can't a line be added to the description that you need, say, 40 UMD?"

Sokar Rostau wrote:

If the restrictions were removed, some of the SD gear, particularly some lvl 10 Armour and Rings, would suddenly be on everyone.

So, hiders that don't have HiPS should receive worse equipment than those that take SD?

Have a cleric/priest PC bless a mundane ring for you instead of using lootbin deity ring?

Mr Mago wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

I like OOC restrictions. I think they are cool, and its a good way to help balance things as well.

It allows the devs to give rewards to people going above and beyond, like the 10 SD shop, for example. I love that it represents the idea that some clown who wasnt of a certain ability in shadow dancing just wouldnt be able to use the weapon or armor effectively.

Oh, and i think triple X should be able to use her ring.

The SD shop was put in by previous DMs, who all... coincidentally happened to play SD after having split from Arelith, where the class was banned.

The SD equip restrictions have been one of the most controversial OOC restrictions on Amia, and I honestly can't see why they're still in place after all this time.

In addition to Tormak's answer to this, I want to reiterate my original post, that i like OOC restrictions. I dont care if they were there to reward someones favorite class, balance, or just to "make RP sense". I think its cool that anyone cant just wear anything.

So if I remove the uber ness of a item, the magical parts I can wear it as a ring?

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

The SD shop was put in by previous DMs, who all... coincidentally happened to play SD after having split from Arelith, where the class was banned.

Partially true.

The stuff was added at the time when you only needed SD 1 to get HIPS, before Shadow Jump ever existed. There's no doubt the gear there was esigned by the server's leading shadowdancers, FOR shadowdancers: I won't dispute that one for a second. The stuff was originally added to get people to take more than 1 SD for HIPS. Then HIPS was moved to level 6 and it started looking a bit redundant. Then shadow Jump got added, originally as simply a portal to Shadowscape, and then later as the actual Shadowjump you know today. Then it really went out of whack.

For the record, at the time, Arelith had not banned Shadowdancers, though i believe they've done so today with both RDD and SD. I think. I may be wrong. At the time, they changed it so that all SDs and RDDs needed applications for the class, and any current SDs and RDDs got "SD Tokens" and "RDD tokens" proving they were in fact legitly able to have the class. I think Nathan's SD token is still on his character file.

You can take SD on Arelith but as well as an application they've been changed:

* Hide in Plain Sight feat (HiPS) has been disabled for this class.
* Their Shadow Evade now lasts 3 rounds per class level (much longer than the standard 5 rounds).
* A +1 bonus to Hide is given with each SD level taken.

Mr Mago wrote:

Sokar Rostau wrote:

If the restrictions were removed, some of the SD gear, particularly some lvl 10 Armour and Rings, would suddenly be on everyone.

So, hiders that don't have HiPS should receive worse equipment than those that take SD?

Actually, yes. The fact that a Shadowdancer can hide in full view of someone means by default that the Class is better skilled at hiding than a Rogue or some random Class combo that has taken a Hide dump at level 29.

That said, I wasn't necessarily talking about the gear with the H/MS bonuses, but some of the other gear which I won't mention because they are a secret of the trade. Suffice to say that if the restrictions were removed almost every Dexer (Rogue, Bard, Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, WM... ) on the server would be wearing the same armour. As things stand SDs have a reason to go to level 10, if anyone could wear that gear then nobody would bother going past level 6.

Sokar Rostau wrote:

Actually, yes.

From a lore point of view, no. HiPS in itself already supplies the difference. The skill of yanking shadows over you requires a measly 10 or less in Hide/MS/Tumble, and is from that point on independent of your ability to move around slickly within it.
In a room where every surface was luminous, a shadowdancer would have exactly no bonus to stealth over any other padfoot: they're not any better at conventional sneaking.

From Balance Bovine's perspective: HELL NO. Better because of X is no reason to implement Y and Z to widen the gap further.

Of the four solutions to the SD10 problem, the least-bad is leave it alone. The good one involves time travel.

Shadowdancers are no better at hiding than the Mundane Sneaker. If anything, they become worse because they rely less on the Skill of finding a hiding place and utilizing it, and instead on a special ability that can be pierced by Dragon True Sight.

ICly, same applies. Shadowdancers aren't better or worse at it. Shadowdancers just have the extraordinry ability to suddenly hide from someone who is looking -at- them (IE, in plain sight of an individual).

Mechanically, a Shadowdancer cn simply hide without Cover or Concealment, as long as they are within 10ft of a shadow. They aren't "Better" at hiding. They just have a third viability for "Where" they can do it.

I never said anything about adding to, or improving, what is already there for SDs, in fact, if you read my post you will see that I said leave it alone. What I did say was that the mere fact they are able to hide in full view of someone that is watching them means that they are better at hiding. This has nothing to do with lore or mechanics, it is simple logic. If you want to argue that the SD-only items are over-powered because of their H/MS bonuses then I will direct you to the nearest Mythal Forge where you make make something similar for yourself.

Mago asked if they should have better equipment, and you said yes; that sugegsts you think there's no imbalance in the gear, or that such an imbalance is justified. The Hide/MS isn't what makes the gear better; it's the saves, CON and immunities, and I'd be amazed if Mago wasn't talking about them.

You're slick at misdirection in arguments, I give you that. Having HiPS makes you better at hiding-in-plain-sight, that's simple logic. After the brief gap between F1 and everyone nearby rolling Spot/Listen, you are hiding. HiPS is of no value then.

IC "use" of OOCly restricted items?

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