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I am increasingly liking the option of dice rolls to enhance RP, be it a CON roll to see how much that dwavern ale hit you, or between pc's, i know its optional and you can veto it but i'd like to find some better examples, like idk the counter rolls to anything nemore, wud like ur input guys

tao_myst wrote:

I am increasingly liking the option of dice rolls to enhance RP, be it a CON roll to see how much that dwavern ale hit you, or between pc's, i know its optional and you can veto it but i'd like to find some better examples, like idk the counter rolls to anything nemore, wud like ur input guys :)

I'm sorry, but I a finding the last part difficult to read? Are you asking what rolls are used to counter another?

sorry using psp thats the text limit, yes for example grapple, listen could be countered by move silently if you were sneaking stuff like that, its been ages since my last PnP game and would like to learn so can use IC and so others can see examples

I think he's asking for skill/ability rolls and opposing checks commonly used for RP..

I don't think dice roles are enforced player to player but I see people use them often. It just kinda sucks when you bust your ass for 20 minutes of text walls for a bard song and roll a 5 in Perform. *sob*

You really need to look at the PHB for all of them, but the examples it provides are
Bluff vs Sense Motive (in Amia this is spot/listen)
Hide vs Spot
Move Silently vs Listen
Most of the time the rule 'common sense pas off' works.

Lalelilolu wrote:

I don't think dice roles are enforced player to player but I see people use them often. It just kinda sucks when you bust your ass for 20 minutes of text walls for a bard song and roll a 5 in Perform. *sob*

5 doesn't matter if you have +100

And.. rolls are important in some situations.

I like rolls actually counting. So long as it's a reasonable use I usually let people roll, and expect the same courtesy from them should it happen - after all, if you've invested ranks in a skill, why not have fun using it?

My drow hears the heartbeat of everyone near her and my Sally kills bacteria by looking at them (both exaggerations, the former not by much, but you get the point).

And I'm one of those players who likes to think I'm better than everyone else because I don't roll dice and don't ask people to roll dice when RP'ing with me regardless of how many ranks they put in it. :wink:

1) Dice Are Optional
2) I only use Dice when I feel it will be valuable to let the odds choose for me. Meaning, if my character is going to do something well like a concentration check, I don't risk it on dice.
3) Using Dice for personal reference is fine, as you obviously agree to it.
4) Using Dice for Others' reference just requires an agreement first from the involved.
5) Grapple vs Grapple is the usual for trying to resist a grapple; or if it's a bear-hug contest.
6) Why be specifics? If I'm with somebody rolling dice, I always have a few of "Well, I can see it being either a spot check they saw it move or a wisdom check they know it wasn't that way before, or a listen check hearing the verbal of the spell..." -- Er, I try to let the player have options for what they'd like to use or what would work best on their character.
7) Dice Are Optional, but can be fun!
8] When people do " [Roll X skill to know more] " usually don't get me to roll just because that also assumes the character is doing X action. Example: "Roll Spot to see what glimmered" me: "PC Doesn't actually care to check being too busy talking away"

Torzeng wrote:

5) Grapple vs Grapple is the usual for trying to resist a grapple; or if it's a bear-hug contest.

Yup, but the other person gets an AoO.

I know it's not supposed to be this way, but I always consider 1 a fail and 20 a success with skill rolls as with hits and saves. Even a +100 can get sand blown into their eye on occasion.

Xaviera wrote:

I know it's not supposed to be this way, but I always consider 1 a fail and 20 a success with skill rolls as with hits and saves. Even a +100 can get sand blown into their eye on occasion.

But if something is DC 10 is someone with eleven skill points just as likely to fail as someone with a hundred?
Skill points represent abilities beyond what is normal for a human.

Personally I like to think of a task that you can easily pass as something mundane that your character can do in their sleep. Sure, they'll make the occasional stuff up, but not one in twenty times.

1 is always a failure regardless or skill points in PnP

DM: "you jump 20ft across the bottomless pit, roll a d20..."
PC1: "...1 oh noes!"
DM: "yep, he dead..."

Don't the dice sort out the modifiers for you?? I thought you normally just have to roll high enough.

My personal favorite rule is on both players rolling a 20 both weapons shatter

can't remember where I saw that one though. I also read in DRAGON magazine that grapple in effect is broken mechanically in some way, something about if you draw a roll its a no win or something I forget.

tao_myst wrote:

1 is always a failure regardless or skill points in PnP

DM: "you jump 20ft across the bottomless pit, roll a d20..."
PC1: "...1 oh noes!"
DM: "yep, he dead..."

Don't the dice sort out the modifiers for you?? I thought you normally just have to roll high enough.

My personal favorite rule is on both players rolling a 20 both weapons shatter :P can't remember where I saw that one though. I also read in DRAGON magazine that grapple in effect is broken mechanically in some way, something about if you draw a roll its a no win or something I forget.

With all due respect - you are wrong.

Player's Hand Book wrote:

Unlike with attack rolls and saving trows, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.

3.5 p. 63

dang, well i'd still like to see someone make that jump on a 1, you'd need a high jump skill, no armor and a really unlucky DM to roll 1 aswell. I understand why though, auto sucess would make the game like the matrix, and auto fail like a really bad film where only one guy survives and everyone else seams to get mauled, if anyone survives.

if it was a save vs tripping and falling down the pit it would be a whole other story I suppose, didn't know it only applied to saves and attacks, magic attacks having the best sideffects on fail

"alaca..."*turns into a toad* "...ribbit."

The only real roll I ever ask for is a initiative or a grapple for when someone tries to grab me, cast on me, what have you.

If someone is trying to listen in on a whispered conversation I'm having and they do a listen roll, I'll take it into account, but just because you put 100 points into Listen and you rolled a 20 it doesn't mean that you hear everything I say to someone. I may send something like:

*You hear: "He..... did... her..... in Bendir Dale... with a pitchfork."*

When my character actually said: "He was on his way after he did his duties for the cycle. He ran across her and she said to meet him in Bendir Dale, but when he got there, her father chased him off with a pitchfork."

It's the same with any other stat. I'm not gonna let someone convince me to give them all my gold just because their persuade score is +120. If the game mechanics don't support it, I consider it a guideline... not a rule.

I strongly disagree with that. While social skills aren't designed to be used against PCs, the other skills are designed to be used all the time. If someone has invested in something rather than powerbuild their character, hey deserve to have that recognised, IMO.

For example, the rules for listen are fully fleshed out in the PHB. Ignoring something because the game mechanics don't support it ma be legal, but I certainly don't think it's fair.

I gotta say it must be optional, up to the player to decide as not everyone owns NWN and PHB, DMG, and MM1, and can be confusing especially when you use non in game skills.

for example decifer script, thats not in NWN but could be used in RP very easily to read say, draconic writting on a book OOCly only readable to draconics, lets say a standard sort of writing for draconics so a 25DC+, if such a thing is on there. if somethings written only in draconic on the forums you could even roll a real d20 to see if your character can get the jist of the message I suppose, but you'd have to explain yourself if they ask how you could read it or people will be peved, plus decifer is taught only skill, and my brain hurts from trying to figure out if I missed anything in the equation.

I think i've found something aswell, instead of grapple vs grapple, use escape artist to counter aswell

more info on PHB p.156 apparently, I'm still reading the skills section.

tao_myst wrote:

I think i've found something aswell, instead of grapple vs grapple, use escape artist to counter aswell :) more info on PHB p.156 apparently, I'm still reading the skills section.

You can only used escape artist after you've been grappled, not to counter a grapple. So it's an escape option if you're happy to give them a round to pound you senseless first.

As for skills it is optional, but when I see people with 100+ spellcraft and that sort of insane investment in a single skill I believe they deserve to have it treated accordingly.

And it is treated accordingly. By DMs.

But when my PC needs to be convinced of something, I know exactly what it is that he or she wants/needs to hear in order to be convinced. If you do not tell me what I want/need to hear, your +100 persuade roll means jack.

Yossarin wrote:

And it is treated accordingly. By DMs.

But when my PC needs to be convinced of something, I know exactly what it is that he or she wants/needs to hear in order to be convinced. If you do not tell me what I want/need to hear, your +100 persuade roll means jack.

I agree with you there ... social rolls are a big no, because the game wasn't designed to handle them for PCs, but mechanical rolls are always okay in my book (so long as they make sense).

I have seen DMs treat the really high skills with great respect, and it makes me happy every time I do.

If a skill roll may be required during an Event, I usually scroll through the PCs' skills. If there are enough ranks invested in a certain skill, sometimes I don't even bother with a roll. I just send a tell saying, "Due to your training in, knowledge of, handiwork at X, you see/hear/realize/accomplish Y."

persuade, bluff, anything like that is totally useless in most PnP aswell, the DM will want to be convincingly bluffed acting as the character your talking to, we tryed to interrogate someone in mechwarrior/battletech and the rolls ment nothing to the DM he wanted real persuasion to get the info we we're after in the story, and it was damn hard to think of real ways to do so. short story, don't take persuade ever other than the second expansion if you play a paladin, very helpful

I also like it when DM's choose to ignore their own rolls in place of a better option, as long as its not killing a PC by ignoring it because that is very harsh

tao_myst wrote:

we tryed to interrogate someone in mechwarrior/battletech and the rolls ment nothing to the DM he wanted real persuasion to get the info we we're after in the story, and it was damn hard to think of real ways to do so.

Random Tangent:

People who regularly interrogate criminals and prisoners of war say that they get the best results by building a rapport with the prisoner.

As far as general persuasion goes, the self-improvement tapes I've heard on the topic suggest that the most effective general method is pointing out the benefits of the course of action for the person you're talking to.

That's common sense. You don't need it from a self-improvement tape.

Persaude (Diplomacy), Bluff, and Intimidate in PnP are overpoweringly broken good played by RAW.

DMs almost always houserule those when they first encounter a stacked social character killing babies on the street in broad daylight and making epic diplomacy roles at level seven to get away with it.

Thank goodness it really is one of those rules as written anyone can look at at know common sense says that can't be right.

Also, The DMs job is to progress the story and make it fun for all the players at the table. I fib rolls both ways sometimes because occasionally the dice gods do everything in their power to suck the life out of a game.

Yossarin wrote:

That's common sense. You don't need it from a self-improvement tape.

*coughs* Maybe you didn't need it from a tape, but I benefited from being told.

I mean, yeah, it's obvious, but to those of us less-endowed with common sense it's possible to become focused on why you want the thing to happen and talk about that instead of reasons that the person you're addressing will find compelling.

the particular scenario required us to do it quickly, and the prisoner valued the info above his life, it took fingernail removal to crack that cookie, a nasty spell threat like say a poison could do similar justice in amia without being too tourtureous (as such rp torture is not alowed to prevent nightmares or something) in any case making them comfortable wont always work.

Recently my drow has been testing out degradation and building a rapport together, although I don't think this anything to do with dice rolls.

My mind for rolls, if they are done properly are:
Social skills = Usually Bad
Other Skills = Usually Good

Of course, this all hinges on the 'done properly' line.

If someone is trying to hear what my char whispers, for example, and is 100 feet away (I use imperial because the book is written in imperial) and rolls a 50, I have a look: DC is 15 to ear + 10 to understand + 1 per 10ft distance.
This means he hears and understands at 250 feet, and I send him a tell.

Of course, there are circumstance modifiers that I feel are completely at the discretion of the person being listened too - for example, if your out is right up against their ear and you are in a crowded bazaar the DC would be somewhat higher.

Yurell wrote:

I strongly disagree with that. While social skills aren't designed to be used against PCs, the other skills are designed to be used all the time. If someone has invested in something rather than powerbuild their character, hey deserve to have that recognised, IMO.

For example, the rules for listen are fully fleshed out in the PHB. Ignoring something because the game mechanics don't support it ma be legal, but I certainly don't think it's fair.

And dumping 100 as many skill points as you can into one social skill isn't powerbuilding, too?

Back on point, though.

NWN is not D&D. The former is based off the later and holds very strong similarities, but they are different. Not everyone that plays has a PHB or any other source books. I have a couple, but it's only what I've been able to find in used book stores. I've never paid full price for a D&D book.

As a PC, I take into account the strength of a social roll, but it's not the end-all-be-all. This version of NWN is about RP. Rolling a bunch of dice is not RP, it's craps. And I only play craps in a casino when I can make some money.

This is not to say that dice rolls are not an integral part of the game. But, in no way am I going to give someone an IC RP'd reaction just cuz they click a few buttons and a big number comes up.

If you're character is sexy as hell, I'm not gonna just act like s/he is sexy cuz you did a dice bag roll, you have to support that roll with proper RP. If your character rolls a CHA check of 20 with a +10 modifier, for example, and then says, "OMGZ, I IZ SO SEXY!!1!!!! U MST LUV ME!" I'm not gonna accept it. However, if you do no dice roll and make an honest attempt through text to convey your character's sex appeal, I'm not even gonna need a roll.

ainjyll wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I strongly disagree with that. While social skills aren't designed to be used against PCs, the other skills are designed to be used all the time. If someone has invested in something rather than powerbuild their character, hey deserve to have that recognised, IMO.

For example, the rules for listen are fully fleshed out in the PHB. Ignoring something because the game mechanics don't support it ma be legal, but I certainly don't think it's fair.

And dumping 100 as many skill points as you can into one social skill isn't powerbuilding, too?

First off, I specifically stated I'm against social skills being used on another PC. Period.

And taking a skill that serves less purpose than one you could grab to make your character more powerful is not powerbuilding IMO.

As for the charisma example - yes they look good, but that doesn't mean one's character is going to be sexually attracted to them - social rolls are different to other mechanical rolls in that the former affects another character, whereas the latter is based off physical constants.

Edit:
I thought an example might help my point
Roll Persuade = dictate someone else's RP without own supporting RP = bad
Roll Listen = dictate sound waves obeying normal physical laws = alright

Bluff against Spot/listen is absurd. In PnP most of those things work against a base DC with situation modifiers. Opposed rolls are generally used only in conflict situations.

Don't say Bluffing is a conflict situation, it's not unless you fail. Do you walk around thinking everyone is a demon in disguise? Of course not. It makes my skin crawl to see someone to demand a Bluff check when they have no IC reason to suspect the Bluffing person of any wrong doing.

Why not apply a base DC of 25 plus the Wis. mod. of the person being bluffed. I think this is more realistic. As it stands now Joe Schmo PC has a greater insight into people intentions then Buddha.

Situation Mods are easy also;

-5 if the person is a Guard on duty.
+5 if you are in disguise.
+1 for every 10 ranks of perform
etc... (add any more that are realistic and not too complex)

EDIT: I totally agree that social rolls on PCs are silly but people will always demand them in Bluff situations. Added to that is the fact that without the rolls no one would ever get bluffed.

The Incognitos wrote:

Bluff against Spot/listen is absurd. In PnP most of those things work against a base DC with situation modifiers. Opposed rolls are generally used only in conflict situations.

Don't say Bluffing is a conflict situation, it's not unless you fail.

If you're going to talk about PnP, Bluff is always opposed when you are attempting to lie to someone. It's opposed either by Sense Motive (which doesn't exist in NWN, which I suppose is why people subsitute other skills) or Bluff.

'those things' meant social skills. The proposed base DC was because there is no Sense Motive

Ooh guess what, I rolled a perfect 100 on a percentile throw, then a 90.........then a 1.

How cool is that

I have one of my characters tell mix truthes or blantent lies that seem to always come true all the time.. I will only ever roll a bluff check on her if I am beng stupid.. playing poker.. or in social situations that are so far down the imprtantance chain that it doesn't have an effect

i have never once asked for a bluff roll. If the person takes the time to think out a good lie and puts effort into it, i think to myself "would he have any reason to doubt this or not." Usually, the more effort the opposing player puts in will result in me erring on behalf of it going through. I'd hate for someone to roll a 1 after they planned out an elaborate story for an hour or two, and spent the time typing it. And then get foiled by someone saying //roll bluff now, i win roll, you lose. Hell, someone came up behind me one time and rolled str to hit me on the back of the head, and told me my options. I responded "dude, you are behind me, i had no way of knowing you were there, how can i dodge? Take it as you beat me and carry on."

All in all, the dice are meaningless. There is no way a 20 mod fighter should lose to a 2 mod sorc in an arm wrestling contest, but it can happen if the sorc rolls a 20 and the fighter a 1.

I never roll bluff, and to make up for it my characters never lie.
Well, that's not entirely accurate ... they never speak a word that is not true. They may construct sentences to suggest, but there is never a deliberate mistruth, except by omission (which is still not a lie!).

Socialskills are for PC vs. NPC not PC vs. PC.

Right, huh?

Terra_777 wrote:

Socialskills are for PC vs. NPC not PC vs. PC.

Right, huh?

That's what I believe it is anyway - never seen a DM demand a social roll for PC vs PC ever.

Yurell wrote:

For example, the rules for listen are fully fleshed out in the PHB. Ignoring something because the game mechanics don't support it ma be legal, but I certainly don't think it's fair.

PnP is scaled completely different from NwN and definately from worlds like Amia where you can get your numbers in the triple digits.

On top of that in nwn you can save up your skillpoints, I don't know if that's by 3.0 rules, but it's not really correct anyway, and half the chars which have a maxed out score somewhere took it on a skilldump class turning a gradual improvement of your eyes or ears or the way you talk (bluff/persuade) to an overnight acomplishment.
(this is not a complaint against the mechanics, I do it as well, so don't take it as that.)

Also, the fact that not every counter is available makes it different.

As mentioned before: bluff vs listen;
Listen is a mechanical skill in nwn, bluff is not, which means listen is a lot more useable and more ppl will be spending points in it. If however, the sense motive skill would be available, then the counter would become (more) valid, at this moment it is not.

belgianbonzai wrote:

Yurell wrote:

For example, the rules for listen are fully fleshed out in the PHB. Ignoring something because the game mechanics don't support it ma be legal, but I certainly don't think it's fair.

PnP is scaled completely different from NwN and definately from worlds like Amia where you can get your numbers in the triple digits.

On top of that in nwn you can save up your skillpoints, I don't know if that's by 3.0 rules, but it's not really correct anyway, and half the chars which have a maxed out score somewhere took it on a skilldump class turning a gradual improvement of your eyes or ears or the way you talk (bluff/persuade) to an overnight acomplishment.
(this is not a complaint against the mechanics, I do it as well, so don't take it as that.)

Also, the fact that not every counter is available makes it different.

As mentioned before: bluff vs listen;
Listen is a mechanical skill in nwn, bluff is not, which means listen is a lot more useable and more ppl will be spending points in it. If however, the sense motive skill would be available, then the counter would become (more) valid, at this moment it is not.

I vote it be switched to half int half wis to counter a bluff....just my opinion.

..or don't tell the person oocly your character is ICly lying with a bluff roll in the first place O.o

Last edited by tao_myst on Fri, Apr 03 2009, 13:58 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

..or don't tell the person oocly your character is ICly lying with a bluff roll in the first place O.o

roll bluff with a real d20

then decide yourself how to react, or RP it, I suppose really it is vs DM roll's in PnP for bluff, persuade, you don't normally use it on PC's unless your doing a two group game, which is really hard to do with PnP, requires two campaigns running in the same world and you meet one day

only ever done one of those, and was way young so DM couldn't really manage it fully. we also got pwned by something in a dungeon..

speak language seams rather useful in IC terms, quoth the PHB, p.82..

Quote:

Languages / Alphabets

Abyssal, Infernal / Infernal
Aquan, Elven, Sylvan, Undercommon / Elven
Auran, Draconic, Ignan / Draconic
Celestial.. / Celestial
Druidic.. / Druidic
Gnoll, Halfling, Common (human) / Common
Dwarvern, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran / Dwarvern

(+ drow sign, which has none I don't think, unless they draw the handsigns or something..)

action: N/A
Try again: N/A, no save to fail

at LV1 you know 1 or 2 languages dependant on race, plus an additional language per intelligence modifier point (+3, you can be taught 3 new languages before your brain goes "duhhhhhhh...")

no ranks, just languages insted (which is good for online

)

no rolls, you either know a language or you don't

a literate character (0 charisma modifier or higher, not minus..) can read and write any language she/he speaks, each language has an alphabet (see above) though several spoken languages share the same alphabet

I'm not sure where fey come into this but i'm sure the information is around somewhere, possibly druidic idk...as for - charisma scores, RP it, you can't read for example, I've seen that done well in the forums already so hope this is useful to those without the mighty PHB

-----
UPDATE: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Languages

Does this still apply or is there a newer version of rules?

Speak Language is an interesting one, since the house rule seems to be semi int-modifier, but a lot of people supposedly know more languages than this, and some spend quite a while RP learning them.

Personally I love the skill ... my bard knew all the languages listed so early in one game of PnP

Last edited by Drannok on Sat, Apr 04 2009, 4:13 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Literacy is Int based.

The rest of this post has been self-removed to avoid a potential disaster.

Please do not start the Charisma/Appearance arguement. I beg of you. Please.

TormakSaber wrote:

Please do not start the Charisma/Appearance arguement. I beg of you. Please.

Makes you wish we had the second ed AD&D with the sub ability scores?

No, not really. Just don't get into the CHA thing. Please.

CHA does not as stated in PnP give you automatic swoon inflicting capibilitys, RP does

and thats all I have to say about that.

no dice..

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