AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - God-like NPC factionbase defenders

Basically, if we didn't have these badass NPC guards, then Cordor or other areas would be constant warzones with leadership changes on a weekly basis. At that point, it might as well be an Arena server.

It's worth noting I only said it's disgusting.

I actually appriciate the need for invincible combat beatstick NPCs.

Honestly the last thing I'd do as a member of team evil is try to slash and burn my way into Cordor (or almost anywhere).

There's way more fun and creative ways to take over a city, or the world.

"The cunning warrior attacks neither the body or mind"

There are ways to defeat someone instead of brute force. For example, targeting a loved one? Or having them face what they fear the most?

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Drannok. Especially on the 'Disgusting' part. Any time I use Dorne for anything combative (Bar duels where the other player signs up for it knowingly and willingly), I can just feel the emo-esque guilt, heh.

Sadly, there needs to be something, and Dorne's "it". Offers the most RP opportunities, leaves plenty of openings, and also makes IC rational sense given the progression of the City he guards.

Halecta wrote:

There are ways to defeat someone instead of brute force. For example, targeting a loved one? Or having them face what they fear the most?

Nah. NPCs have proved to be immune to that as well.

...I kind of think he's too powerful for an RP server, if 5 level 30's stand no chance then he shouldn't be an NPC because he's a target for RP, and normally unbeatable, unless you find out IC way of pwning him as has been said, I'm guessing its like the guy and the hair from the bible, or the immortal and his painting from league of extrodinary gentlemen, but thats still god like abilitys on a human ? guard, OOC work inducing or not.

if 40 level 30's attacked him no amount of "can't touch me" should be able to save him, but idk his exact stats so im guessing here.

I can understand Cordor and Ultrinnan having very powerful guards.

Buuut... the Shadowflame Mansion? Winya?

Fighting NPCs can be fun, so long as you know when to quit. Taking down a couple of regular guards then going; "Oh no! Law Knights! Run!" and actually running away was one of the best encounters I ever had in Cordor. Got away 'clean' because I saw death-on-legs NPCs and legged it.

Factions God-guards are lame because they have Spot and Listen jacked up higher than an espresso dragon.

It's actually something more readily available just not readily obvious. Anyone putting in the effort and showing some understanding would find a way to get past him as long as they're careful, and alert.

Dorne's only 'God Incarnate' when you give him a situation that forces him to draw his sword and attack something.

Winya and Shadowflame Manor are both states of 'Grandfathering', so to speak. Winya's aren't horrible, thankfully, they're just a bit too tough for their own good.

Last edited by Phantom-D on Sun, Apr 05 2009, 2:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

However, I think Dorne lose the title of "most powerful" PC since he is essentially a DM_Kill command.

The most powerful PC should be DAMNED HARD to kill. Not just a one way ticket to the fugue.

I'd nominate a Ultrinnian Mage as the most powerful NPC since they seem tough but beatable with a nice group.

ADDMENDMENT: I just realized that you mentioned the mages had Greater Ruin. That means he probably isn't immune to that spell and I'd also wager the vast majority of damage dealt to him came from that spell. Since 65 players could technically be level 30 sorcerers and have greater ruin, I'd wager he has less than 65,000 HP, which is the give or take the damage from 65 Greater Ruins, correct? That means, if the server can survive 65 characters all in one building, all the mages cast Time Stop, and precede to cast Greater Ruin. Approximately 130 rounds later he should be 100% dead.

I sense...trouble ahead.

He has to be invincible in combat to prevent cheesy powerbuilds from just plowing through him and everything else.

It's a neccasary evil given the power level of well built PCs and the fact excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster.

Drannok wrote:

He has to be invincible in combat to prevent cheesy powerbuilds from just plowing through him and everything else.

It's a neccasary evil given the power level of well built PCs and the fact excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster.

I just want to quote this for absolute truth.

Especially the "Excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster" part.

The Shadowflame guards I thought had been on the docket to get nerfed down to something much more reasonable for at least a year...

Drannok wrote:

He has to be invincible in combat to prevent cheesy powerbuilds from just plowing through him and everything else.

It's a neccasary evil given the power level of well built PCs and the fact excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster.

i agree with this

Phantom-D wrote:

However, I think Dorne should be removed as the "most powerful" PC since he is essentially a DM_Kill command.

The most powerful PC should be DAMNED HARD to kill. Not just a one way ticket to the fugue.

I'd nominate a Ultrinnian Mage as the most powerful NPC since they seem tough but beatable with a nice group.

ADDMENDMENT: I just realized that you mentioned the mages had Greater Ruin. That means he probably isn't immune to that spell and I'd also wager the vast majority of damage dealt to him came from that spell. Since 65 players could technically be level 30 sorcerers and have greater ruin, I'd wager he has less than 65,000 HP, which is the give or take the damage from 65 Greater Ruins, correct? That means, if the server can survive 65 characters all in one building, all the mages cast Time Stop, and precede to cast Greater Ruin. Approximately 130 rounds later he should be 100% dead.

I sense...trouble ahead.

Dude. You're doing it the wrong way.

You have to RP that your character is baking cookies, and then give them to Dorne. That way he'll like you. Get it? Get it? Cookies?

WonWon wrote:

Drannok wrote:

He has to be invincible in combat to prevent cheesy powerbuilds from just plowing through him and everything else.

It's a neccasary evil given the power level of well built PCs and the fact excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster.

I just want to quote this for absolute truth.

Especially the "Excellent RP is not required to be a face smashing combat monster" part.

I am double quoting this and adding that this was part of the 'Rant' I would have been so tempted to toss up on this topic.

To be fair, if 65 CL 30 mages got together, I'd imagine there's a few of the lesser deities they could overpower.

Heh, just wait. Someone is going to simul-bot 65 PCs, get mages to greater ruin levels, and take care of that softie.

#1 rule of DnD is that mages never lose. No way some lame sword fighting dude is going to lay out magic slingers.

Last edited by tao_myst on Sun, Apr 05 2009, 2:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

is good RP dornes secret weakness to make him drop invincibility? or am I way off here...

edit: How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood? Chuck norris XD

You can kill Dorne.

By convincing him to commit suicide.

Drannok wrote:

To be fair, if 65 CL 30 mages got together, I'd imagine there's a few of the lesser deities they could overpower.

Well Dorne seems like he could kill Lloth, even with her Divine Ranks. He is like the Chuck Norris of Amia, tbh.

Dorne couldn't kill a god, or even a demipower. Gods > Dorne > All Else.

Last edited by Drannok on Sun, Apr 05 2009, 3:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

tao_myst wrote:

edit: How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood? Chuck norris XD

A woodchuck could chuck no amount of wood because a woodchuck cant chuck wood.

EDIT: You ruined it!

it can still chuck norris though, he's not wood. out of interest is the drow guard just as epic as dorne?

I don't know. The DnD rules really don't have an explanation in this case. Since he is a custom character that doesn't follow any class progression it makes no sense to limit him as a PC should be.

I'd wager he should be awarded Divine Ranks equal to Gods with similar stats as himself. Most published stats have gods at levels around 30 or 40 at max, correct? Since he can tromp characters ECL 30 on the magnitude of 20+ at a time, he should be quite more powerful than most Forgotten Realm deities. His divine rank should thus reflect this power. He suddenly becomes the most powerful forgotten realms god, probably so powerful Ao even utters a "WTH?"

This is all theory craft though. I like Dorne being an IC Kill button to deal with lamers. He is also REALLY cool. Who doesn't like a very strong, yet reserved, guard general?

The scary part is that things on Amia are operating on a different scale.

Standard DND;

Bogstandard Commoner - HD 1
Standard Guard - HD 3-5
Advanced Guard - HD 6-8
Adventurer - HD 1 > 20
Gods - HD 30-40

That works great for a Tabletop scenario, where the DM can watch and actively scale things and deal with everything that comes up instantaneously and constantly.

However, with a PW where people have the 'freedom' to act, well, freely; you have to change the a scale a bit. Even moreso when 'Adventurers' are commonplace and the average Adventurer Level is 30.

Amia;
Bogstandard Commoner - HD 1-5
Standard Guard - HD 10 - 20
Advanced Guard - HD 20 - 30
Adventurer - HD 10 > 30
Gods - HD 60+

That's just my rough estimations. Gods on Amia are likely around the HD 60 - 80 mark.

Divinty is more complicated in FR than other campaigns, and outside of NWN, no one ever gets high into epic.

Divine Ranks in FR would require him to be sponsered by another deity, and Ao to accept it. He then needs a following to keep his divine ranks.

For this reason, FR is one of the settings you tend to see higher level PCs without aiming for divinity. He can be level 80, but without divine ranks or extreme caster levels, he can't do anything to a demi-god or a god unless he managed to kill absolutely every single worshiper the god had first, or an artifact to neutralize a gods power.

Just about the only class that can kill gods on their own are (big surprise) Mages using Epic Spells. And that's because the people who wrote the rules for them were smoking some really high quality stuff.

Amia is scaled for higher power levels. If we stuck to PnP, many many many PCs could be considered at the level of deities.

The highest written HD deity I've seen was Asmodeous.

I don't remember the HD exactly, but I know he had 76 -rank- in Preform: Dance.

Oh, another bitchfest topic about Dorne. OK. Later.

I perfectly understand why Dorne is in, and I think that he should be kept in, and maybe be brought out a lot rarer then he currently is. Due to he currently is brought out to deal with powerjerks from what I have read, IC mostly, why not just use the Law knights for that? Or DM command kill?

Asmodeus in PnP is CR 27 (Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells p. 155).

Easy meat on Amia.

It all boils down to can the player base be trusted enough to not need these NPCs? Ad I would shunt that down to a categorical 'no'.
And I include myself in there, because given half the chance I would kill the SoB cart driver.

Yurell wrote:

Asmodeus in PnP is CR 27 (Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells p. 155).

Easy meat on Amia.

It all boils down to can the player base be trusted enough to not need these NPCs? Ad I would shunt that down to a categorical 'no'.
And I include myself in there, because given half the chance I would kill the SoB cart driver.

Wizards has stated that the listed ArchDevils are Aspects, fractions of their real power.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Asmodeus in PnP is CR 27 (Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells p. 155).

Easy meat on Amia.

It all boils down to can the player base be trusted enough to not need these NPCs? Ad I would shunt that down to a categorical 'no'.
And I include myself in there, because given half the chance I would kill the SoB cart driver.

Wizards has stated that the listed ArchDevils are Aspects, fractions of their real power.

Yeah, I listed that because I don't think Asmodeus will be bothered physically coming out of his Hell.
If he did I'm quite sure it would take a deity to stop him, or certainly an excessive amount of force.

I like the second ed rules, where the have listed the the avatars of every deity.

Mr Mago wrote:

Why is the assumption made that attempting to kill an NPC has to go hand in hand with being an (censored) of a player trying to show off his powerbuilding expertise?

Because what else can it possibly be intended to achieve?

I'll just go out here and say that just because Dorne is "unkillable" in combat doesn't mean he's unkillable in combat -all- the time. He's not a plot-ruiner, or anything like that. He's meant to stop the random Cordor attacks, etc. If there was a major plot that involved overthrowing Cordor, and was worked out very nicely with players, DMs, etc., I very seriously doubt any DM would pull out Dorne and say, "And Dorne comes out and kills everyone without batting an eye, and everything is over and done."

Unless you only consider combat so far as random, essentially pointless, selfish PvP or PvM, you have really nothing to worry about with Dorne. I would say that if you can get to the point in a plot when your character is actually, legitimately fighting Dorne, having already overcome all the other obstacles, it won't end up being a situation where months and months of work and plot and great RP, etc., are all thrown away by a high-level NPC.

In the end, NPCs on Amia tend to be just like NPCs in a DnD game. They die when it's acceptable for them to die, and if you're not prepared to deal with that, then you're never going to get a shot at Dorne, or any other important or semi-important NPC.

Exactly! What killed Darth Vader? What killed the Emperor? Certainly wasn't wussy Luke Sky Walker.

Did Sauron get beech slapped by the combined might of all the good guys in an epic Middle Earth smack down?

The Incognitos wrote:

Did Sauron get beech slapped by the combined might of all the good guys in an epic Middle Earth smack down?

Gollum failed a Balance check

The whole idea is if there's a person who can easily kill you in single combat (or as an army) do not fight them like that.

If you are certain to lose one way find another.

I always prefer seeing a well made plot from a player than a well made build on a PC. If you, as a player, can figure out a way to influence the world around you without resorting to PvP and PvE all the time, you've got my admiration. It's a lot easier to run into a situation with a sword drawn, but that isn't the most effective route to take on a server where death is nothing more than an inconvenience.

Joke all you like about baking cookies, Mago, but in truth you will have more luck influencing Amia by introducing a genuinely creative idea than you will exercising a bogstandard powerbuild with a big sword. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive, but a build isn't a ticket to coming out on top of an interection with NPCs. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just pointing out that there's a big difference between playing politics in Cordor and running through the Spires.

The great secret is that.. Asmodeus's true form is actually the Lawful Evil 'Twin' of the World-Serpent aspect, Jazirian.

But Mortals can never know this fact. Or they.. 'Disappear'.. >.>

If my memory serves.. according to some of my past readings on Candlekeep, He's still severely injured from the fight that sent him crashing from above to below, his fall actually creating the 9 hells themselves.. his form laying severely wounded to this very day.

Serpent Kingdoms, Guide to Hell, Monster Mythology, Planes of Law wrote:

The Serpents of Law

According to a scholar named "Chrystos" in Guide to Hell, the multiverse was originally nothing but swirling Chaos. Gods slowly formed in the primal confusion, and among them formed the greatest of Law's champions, the Twin Serpents Jazirian and Ahriman. In the beginning they were intimately intertwined with one another, Jazirian's tail in Ahriman's mouth and vice versa. Together they established the fundamental principles of the planes: the Unity of Rings, the Rule of Threes, and the Center of All, creating the ring-shape of the cosmos, the triads that dominate it, and the plane of neutrality called the Concordant Opposition or the Outlands.

Ahriman and Jazirian, who originally worked together in all things, warred over which plane would be the center of everything. Ahriman chose Baator and Jazirian chose Heaven. They struggled so greatly that, with their tails still in one another's mouths, they forcibly tore apart. The blood from Jazirian's damaged tail formed the first couatls, while the blood of Ahriman, whose terrible fall created a vast pit called the Serpent's Trench, formed the first pit fiends. Ahriman, wounded and imprisoned by the laws he himself created, now goes by the guise of the archfiend Asmodeus, while Jazirian remains quietly in the background, using her couatls to gather intelligence on Ahriman's goals.

Couatls believe Jazirian is a perfected manifestation of the World Serpent archetype; other serpent gods, such as Io, Merrshaulk, and Shekinester (and perhaps Beltar) are less perfect or immature manifestations of the same greater concept. Even the toad-god Ramenos is considered to be an (extremely corrupted) aspect of the World Serpent. Certain obscure texts consider Asmodeus to be a variation on the theme, even naming Asmodeus as Jazirian's twin.

Jazirian's realm, known as Uroboros, the Gates of Wisdom, can be found in Solania, the forth of the Seven Heavens. Uroboros is an invisible, intangible realm in the clouds above the layer; it can be reached only by making a leap of faith off the peak of a mountain, or by flying upward until one can fly no more, and plummets toward the earth. The seeker discovers a realm of lightness, exhaustion, relief, and utter bliss. Feathers float through the realm, as do ghostly serpents, couatls, and wind walkers. Words become flesh in this realm. Jazirian permits evil creatures to enter, although they must undergo tests and be given a chance to repent.

Uroboros is the only gate between Solania and the higher Heavens. Those who would climb to the very top of the celestial mountain must pass through it and answer one of the riddles of Jazirian before they can go any further.

That's all IC legend though. What are th e odds of any PC *knowing* this?

I'm not complaining. I'm just taking an interest in the most powerful NPC the server has.

It is like the Olympics, people just want to know who is best. However, those on steroids lose their title cause they "cheat." I was trying to determine if Dorne can hold the top spot and I think it is safe to say he IS legitimate because a certain # of mages can kill him.

The RP behind 40+ odd level 30 mages showing up to fight him is another story altogether, but it is interesting to think about if only in an academic sense.

Cookies all the way. Its all in the cookies.

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Give a Dorne a cookie, and he eats, you pillage, and you sneak your way into his trust.

RARE, yes. But if someone would have the -capability- to take over Cordor it would never be with force. I'm sure we could find 30+ adventurers willing to retake their city, not to mention all the NPC's. So here we'd have grave outnumbering, and "impossible" odds. Dur. Dont attack Cordor face first. If thats the case, why would you also attack Dorne face first? But I think after all these posts, thats the general concensus of the peeps of Amia. So I'm fine with good ole Dorney.

Cookies.

Last edited by tao_myst on Sun, Apr 05 2009, 19:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

dorne dorne dorne dorne dorne

Quote:

me: chuck norris etc, out of interest how does the drow's guard compare?

ehem...

palemaster baked food would work imo

*hands dorne deep fried something(diseased), rolls bluff...* (epic sense motive and fail probably, would need good bluff.)

*sigh*

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

This Dorne guy sleeps, right?

At the risk of using the most cliche overused joke ever...

No. Dorne doesn't sleep.

He waits.

TormakSaber wrote:

At the risk of using the most cliche overused joke ever...

No. Dorne doesn't sleep.

He waits.

oh gods here they come!

what about mixing it up? have god like npcs with some less than god like in the mix? Thats just an idea really and prolly already in place. Personally there needs to be overpowered npcs or like someone said already it becomes an arena or action server.

Uberuce wrote:

This Dorne guy sleeps, right?

Rope trick

TormakSaber wrote:

At the risk of using the most cliche overused joke ever...

No. Dorne doesn't sleep.

He waits.

And when he 'waits' in his room, are there 1203 objects he can use to kill you? Including the room itself?

God-like NPC factionbase defenders

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