Hi!

I believe there was some behind-the-scenes work done on the shifter shapes. However, not much about this is known on the public forums, except the few tidbits that leaked over the last two years. That might be because not much has really happened, although the topic was discussed on and off, from what I recall reading.

The strange thing is, though, that not even a single shape seems to have received a face-lift. I understand that a complete revision takes time ... But how hard would it be to start slow, change the Wild Shape II and see how it goes? Most likely, the lower shapes won't disturb the balance too much. That's what baffles me.

From my perspective, it's not more than adding a few lines to the shifting script and then adjusting the properties of the creature items. I heard Uberuce likes working with stats?

For the script:
Alternative 1) Has Monk AC Feat? Bam, appropriate negative AC as an effect. If he buffs with +12 WIS later on, so be it.
Alternative 2) All shapes get Monk AC as a bonus feat on their hide. Then remove X amount of dodge/natural AC. The high-wis shifters wouldn't mind, I can tell you. For the (powerful) epic shapes it's also quite clear what WIS the PC will have, so there's hardly any ambiguity there.
Alternative 3) Something a real pro would do.

If you really want to merge armor only, the script is also quite obvious in that aspect. (You could also put it in the 2da, though that would merge helmet, shield + armor.)

That way, shifter shapes could be worked on one at a time and people will be quite happy to see some progress! And I hope no one working on the shapes is mad at me for this post. We just haven't had a new shifter thread this month yet, only an ancient one.

Keep up the the good work!
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

I have not talked to Tormak for about a week or so about the changes but from what I remember they were still working on them, it just takes time, we call it a fix or a buff but realy its more like a full rebuild.

we have alot of forms that are useless and throwing AC and AB wont change that, harpy comes to mind as well with basilisk,drider,dire tiger and medusa so I think they might be working on situational skills, we have afew other forms that dont stand out much but I think five I listed are maybe some of the least used.

also alot of our epic shifter feat forms give damage reduction like 15/+3, Familiars and Animal Companions get resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage.
1st – 10thCL: 5/-
11th – 20th CL: 10/-
21st – 30th CL: 15/-

I think it would be nice if all our feat forms had 15/- blunt/slash/piercing instead or 10/- forms should at least be on par with a pet in terms of reduction on class level scale. (5 druid/10 shifter minimum for feat forms)

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

It's just taking time - due to the nature of the scripts and .2da work, it's far more effectivie/efficient to just do it in one hit. Else it means updating files repeatedly for minor little things - which can leave a few gaps for mistake.

Patience!

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Mostly Retired

I think all forms should merge items as much as they can, it puts value on gear, if not a shifter might as well walk around nude.

you would think more options of items would be better because it still makes a players form diverse.

I know people will yell powergamer at this but I'm going to say it anyway.

People in epic gear should have a advantage it gives a way of self improvement, if you got a form and it was the best it could every be thats not very fun, also then you have to think do they balance forms so you would be at the quality of a epic/normal/nude player?

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I can wait. *shifts into an gargoyle* (Nonetheless, I'm curious.)

Oh, and everyones favourite topic: Stuff the devs really ought to implement! (You may stop reading now, WonWon ;)

Wish thinking: With most merging removed, the script checks whether specific items are equipped and gives you certain bonuses. (Ring of the bear when shifting into a bear? Umm, gives improved knockdown?)
More wish thinking: Animal shapes depend on the tileset of the area (e.g. arctic versions)
Most wish thinking: Each armed shape comes with the full variety of equipped weapons (model allowing). Rakshasa comes in a zen-archery compatible version as well. (So shifters no longer need to build for a specific shape.)
Uber-most wish thinking: Shifters get access to weapon focus "creature" and the associated tech-tree including devcrit.

Regards
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

Butbutbut..
I want to see all the shifter-form-changes NOW.
I'm kidding. Actually, it's more like, Kudos for bothering to put so much work into shifters.

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[Out of Retirement.]
[Silent2001's First and Number one (and only?) Fan girl.]
Lila Espinan
An'ar Velu
Rena Espinan

Longer it takes, the better the results. You can't rush these things.

If it takes a hundred years and all that.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

The scripts are mine! *Grrrrr*

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

Whoa man! Talk about balancing them. Some of your suggestions are kind of teetering into the over powered side of the equation. We don't want shifters having Dev Crit in all their forms along with the cool stuff they already get. Not sure the arctic thing is even possible, while it is really cool.

Who wants to balance them? ;) And I don't know what "cool stuff they already get", unless you refer to the current system where most shapes are more or less weak.

Let me explain why I think Devcrit(Creature) is not insanely overpowered: Devcrit + Dragonshape is definitely impossible, even Construct Shape seems unreachable*. The highest STR on any shape remaining is the Elder Earth Elemental at 34 and the (Dire) Bear at 31. That's higher than what an awesome DevCritter has, so it would have to be toned down somewhat (remove STR, give AB and damage bonus instead) or made impossible (Devcrit Creature could require 11 shifter levels, which already makes the druid 20 for elder elemental shape impossible). But the druid shapes are the only High-STR shapes. All remaining Shifter shapes are at 20-27 STR, which doesn't give you much considering you have 25 before you shift.

*) I believe 25 STR, 26 WIS on a Half-Orc Druid 10/Shifter 12/Fighter 8 is an upper bound: Start with 20/17 STR/WIS, +7 from level up, 4 general epic feats, and 5 bonus feats from fighter. You need 13 ability points and 3 epic feats (Epic Shape, OverwhelmingCrit, DevCrit). That's exactly all you have and I don't see how you can get more bonus feats in there.

Sadly, the biggest problem would be the spell Shapechange(Dragon), which has 36 STR in vanilla NWN and dunnohowmuch in Amia ... That could be a nasty DevCrit DC.

About area-based shapes:
The script checks the (sub-)feat used, then looks up an appropriate form from the 2da file. As long as the 2da can be expanded with additional shapes**, you can mix and match your feats as much as you want in the script. You just cast Wild Shape II, Harpy? You have 11 shifter levels to make it epic? And the tileset is underwater? Refer to a different line of the 2da for a Shenahaguabla*** shape or at least model.

**) This is crucial and I don't know if it is possible!
***) You know, those things that like to kill you, when you actually wanted to be killed by that pirate.

In the same way, the script could check your equipped weapon and refer to a different line of the 2da for each weapon. It takes some copy&paste, but everybody loves copy&paste! (The equipment of the shapes is in the 2da, and not created by the script. But the script can add properties to the claws/hides/weapons, and that's how the current merging is done.)

If you look at the original script, there's a comment that at some point shifting without having a weapon equipped (read: you're a monk) made the armed shapes unarmed! That was a little buggy, but that's most likely because they destroyed the shape's weapon after the shifting occurred instead of simply shifting into a specialized shape. (Geez, why didn't they hire me, I'm so aweseom!!!1111.)

For the armed shapes (except the Rakshasa staff), Devcrit is already possible, so opening them up to other weapons wouldn't hurt much, it would just mean that you could use more than one form effectively. That's a change I would support.

Note that not all models support all weapons. The minotaur model can equip a bow and use it, but it only shows in the preview of the toolset, not in the game. The Rakshasa model shows ranged weapons, however. And not all shapes need all weapons ... Size restrictions would still apply, and some common sense wouldn't hurt either. Shifting unarmed or with an forbidden weapon would lead to the default weapon of that shape.

Umm... Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new shapes. :)
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"