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TormakSaber wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

I think non-Ultrinnan drow should be a platinum coin race. why not at least restrict it to those we trust with the RP chops to pull it off?

I think Drow should be a platinum coin race. Why not at least restrict it to those we trust with the RP chops to pull it off?

this is not a bad idea..seriously though, is it that time for the great drow debate already?

Bit early this year, can we do it next month, I'll be revising for exams and more grumpy than usual.

Wait, that's you when you're grumpy? I thought you were happy.

And we can definitely watch the numbers of new drow in Ultri completely dry up.

I don't think they should be a platinum race, unless you intend to make every race (barring human) one too. For example all these elves are hundreds of years old, why should we let just anyone play a character who has the experience of centuries of living behind them?

My post was a joke, good lord.

TormakSaber wrote:

My post was a joke, good lord.

Oh, I so didn't get that *facepalms*
In that case, I agree totally ... no making it platinum.

Maybe if you made "good" Drow a platinum coin race, then you might see more people who want to play Drow actually take the plunge into the UD to give it a go. That would be a good thing.

Not viable from any point of view. I couldn't begin to explain the nightmare it would be.

krytellan wrote:

Maybe if you made "good" Drow a platinum coin race, then you might see more people who want to play Drow actually take the plunge into the UD to give it a go. That would be a good thing.

I'd say the best thing to do, is just introduce people to Drow RP, from a drows perspective (As in, make a a test Drow to see how it goes).

I did this only a few weeks ago, the person wasn't sure at first, thought they wouldn't be able to pull the RP off, or thought they might not like it, but after getting into their character, they liked it and are RP'ing it out quite well.

Plus, i've found much more out while playing my Drow characters, than when i've read about them. But this is because i get bored of reading instead of doing.

Make Good Drow a Platinum Coin race.
No questions.

Why should good drow be a platinum race, and evil not? Good drow live on the surface and have a lifestyle similar to a human. In a Llothite city the culture is entirely alien.

As I stated earlier, according to 3.0/3.5e lore Good Drow are perfectly legitimate. As are Ghaunadarites, Vhaeraunites, male clerics of selvetarm and followers of Kiaransalee. They're all supported in Amia including the prayer system and faction bases/alternate starting locations and have been for -years,- it's not going to be changed now.

If you want a server which all Drow are unconditionally evil Lolthites and males can't be clerics or divine classes, wait till a 4.0e game is made and a PW server is designed where there is no Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar, Kiaransalee or Selvetarm.

I think the main idea they are trying to get at, is that the good drow should be rarer than the current "regular" sight at Amia, and a way to make it rarer would be making it Platinum.

The DM's did the same thing with Fey. I totally agree with making non-evil Drow a platinum race.

If someone wanted to RP becoming good, they could always ask a DM to help, or then request to do so?

1/5 drow according to Iron are Eilistraeean. I reckon it's about 1/3 drow on Amia who are Goodies which isn't that bad. Good Drow aren't as popular as they were 2 years ago though, nowadays you have people exploring Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar so more people are shifting back to the evil Drow mentality.

They're just not being Lolthites and don't hang around Lolthites which I think is the reason it's upsetting people.

[edit] Not to mention, new Underdark. Who knows what will happen when that's implemented, all the goods might convert back in jealousy.

Galenson wrote:

They're just not being Lolthites and don't hang around Lolthites which I think is the reason it's upsetting people.

It's what I think when these threads show up in the forums. Sometimes people truly seems to forget about the other drow deities.

Lolth is the stereotype. I know when I started getting into DnD playing Baldurs Gate II, -all- the Drow were Lolthite (cept for Drizzt Do'urden) and I wasn't even aware that there were other deities.

If it wasn't for Amia and the FR fanboys and girls, I wouldn't even know that the other five drow deities existed: They're either so minorly worshipped (Selvetarm was worshipped by 1:20 drow males I think?) or being chased by the Lolthites to the point of exile or secrecy (Vhaeraunite, Eilistraeean and Ghaunadarite) I don't blame people for forgetting they're there.

Unfortunately, the sooner they realise they are infact there and legitimate the less often these threads will pop up.

personally, I like the drow of Pazio's pathfinder, demonworshipers, and they worship a good number. But they are evil. Lolth society is the major part of drow society. I like them being evil. I try to help people with playing lolthlites because for the most part that is drow society.

Actually, among drow it's rare for the Lolthites to know of other dieties. And perhaps that's why people think that non-lolthite drow should be rare.

If memory serves, from what I read from Lore and canon, the only gods mentioned to the young Lolthites are Mystra - vaguely - because of the Weave, and Lolth.

The other deities are only known about among the less "monitored" layers of the cities.

So, every drow and non-drow are expected to not know anything about the other drow deities, unless if IC they ever listen about the other deities.

Something's wrong with my argument, however. o.O I feel something is lacking or contradicting here. -.-

You're really just supporting what I said Dri

The other deities in comparison to Lolth are so minor most people don't -know- about them and when they come to Amia and discover drow aren't kissing Lolth's arse because they worship other deites, they spark a riot about it.

It doesn't mean the other deities aren't there though.

And we all know that Amia's a haven for the unnatural. Those "uncommon" things are going to appeal to the playerbase more then the boring norm which is why there's so many tieflings, aasimars and non-Lolthite Drow.

I dont think the point that people are making is that non-Lolthite drow are rare per se.. but that they are certainly way less common than Lolthites.. yet the statistic seems way out of whack on this server.. seems being the key word, because there are plenty of Lolthites.. still, the platinum coin-good drow idea might be good just so people aren't so casual about making good drow, because that is also way less common

Last edited by Galenson on Sun, Apr 19 2009, 4:26 AM, edited 1 time in total.

But unlike feys where the platinum coin applied to the entire subrace because 90% of them were just treating them like elves with fancy stats, slapping a platinum coin on 1 alignment for a subrace is hard work to monitor. That's what Tormak was saying posts ago.

I think the best way to summarise it is:

Yossarin wrote:

You're making an issue where there is no issue.

Mah-red wrote:

I dont think the point that people are making is that non-Lolthite drow are rare per se.. but that they are certainly way less common than Lolthites.. yet the statistic seems way out of whack on this server.. seems being the key word, because there are plenty of Lolthites.. still, the platinum coin-good drow idea might be good just so people aren't so casual about making good drow, because that is also way less common

Why should it be placed on a single alignment to make it rarer? Platinum races are for those races that the player needs to be 'good' enough to play, and are requested as such. To me, it would seem it is easier to play a good drow than a UD one: the evil drow culture is completely different to what we experience IRL.

From my point of view, that is what would need a Platinum coin more. But in my opinion it should be either an entire race or not at all, and all drow being platinum would kill Ultrinnan, while none will leave us with the status quo.

Personally, I am happier with the status quo than the alternative.

TormakSaber wrote:

Not viable from any point of view. I couldn't begin to explain the nightmare it would be.

Valas actually started out as a lolthite, only turning ''good'' after he was banished from the underdark for defending himself against a child that turned out to be a priestress daughter.

Platinum coining good drow would not work. What's to stop people from making them evil and then convert? Would you put restrictions on character development, saying that evil drow have to remain evil no matter the rp or story?

Not going to work.

TormakSaber wrote:

Not viable from any point of view. I couldn't begin to explain the nightmare it would be.

I'll quote Tormak quoting himself for emphasis

TormakSaber wrote:

Not viable from any point of view. I couldn't begin to explain the nightmare it would be.

Yeah, just imagine how annoying it would be separating the Good from the Evil, if i were the DM's, i wouldn't want to individually have every Drow checked to seperate them, and the DM's are deffinately set on things like this not changing, which has been mentioned in a few topics.

Don't forget to think about the ones who have to put the work into it, it's easy to ask or demand for something when you aren't the one who has to go through with all the work.

no need for PC on drow of any kind. I think it is up the community to educate and enforce roleplay standards, not needing DM oversight in the form of restrictions.

Zanthair wrote:

no need for PC on drow of any kind. I think it is up the community to educate and enforce roleplay standards, not needing DM oversight in the form of restrictions.

Seconded.

Ninthed

Zanthair wrote:

no need for PC on drow of any kind. I think it is up the community to educate and enforce roleplay standards, not needing DM oversight in the form of restrictions.

Actually, there is a drawback to that: you, or the whole community, might start to be called elitist. As it seems to happen already and can be witnessed during a couple of discussions in the drow forums whenever a new player makes a post there asking for some sort of guidance.

EDIT: Especially if the post is concerning classes and Prestige Classes, Forgotten Realms or Core D&D.

This discussion actually makes no sense. Whether Lolthites are more in number or Elistraeans, or whoever else. Because in the end it's more an IC concern and an in game thing than out.

Point being in any real situation the numbers of various peoples rises and falls.

If there are more good drow then evil at any given point, then that is something to be RP'd, where the Lolthites can complain that they are low in numbers and support, not something to take to a forum.

That's like someone complaining about too many people in a single faction OOC. The faction was made, people joined, and that's that.

The same applies with goodly drow. A temple for good drow was put, good drow joined...and that's that....

Arelith has a NO GOOD DROW policy and it seems to work fine, except there's not a SINGLE good drow. Maybe that's how it should be, but if people really thought that, a temple to elistrae would have never been asked for in the first place.

In my ideal Amia any non-Lolthite drow would be PC'd. Ultrinnan being as close to the surface as it is, I don't think that they would really let the Elli's have a temple so close to them... and the support that the other drow gods have is sparce at best (Selvetarm and Kiransalee being included with Lolth) with such a heavy Lolth-filled enviroment.

But, there are some problems with this. The biggest and most obvious is the headache it would give our already tired DM staff as they try and sort through every drow that pops up.

It was said that it might hinder character development, but I don't see that as the case at all. Get a DM to watch your RP and if the other god accepts your characters pleas, then bingo! You've got your approval.

But, like with everything else on Amia, it's all cyclical. Elli's were the fad a while back and there were goodie drow everywhere. Now there's a trend towards the "lesser" drow gods. I don't see any problem with people playing goodie drow or drow who worship gods other than Lolth. But, the ratios should be kept in mind and if they start getting too out of whack, then something should be done to correct the ratio. Yet, as it stands now, the task of sorting through the drowsies is way too much of a task for something that really isn't a problem, but more a desire.

I think PCing good drow is elitist BS. "Oh but in FR there are less good drow than evil" is an invalid argument, since we are no on the mainland - Cordor has more freaks than Sigil (and yes I know Sigil isn't in FR).

How many cities teeming with high power ages are there in Faerun? Now how many of those are also pumped to the rafters with good tieflings? Throw in the child-like elven female mentality, and I doubt there is a single city like it ... that is why we play Amia and not "some random, nondescript place in Faerun"

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Arelith has a NO GOOD DROW policy and it seems to work fine, except there's not a SINGLE good drow.

Wrong, actually. They have the policy, you're right on that though.
You can have an Eilistraeen drow, but they have to live in the drow city. Like normal.
Eili drow can be CN, which is what you have to pick if you want to be an Eilistraeen. You're right, there is no "Good" drow, meaning of the mechanical alignment. (LG, NG, CG)

I actually met an Eilistraeen when I played on Arelith for a week or so, met her in the sewers and walked her around Cordor.

ainjyll wrote:

But, there are some problems with this. The biggest and most obvious is the headache it would give our already tired DM staff as they try and sort through every drow that pops up.

You can actually just set a restriction based on alignment, like Arelith has with mechanically "Good" drow. If their subrace is Drow, and alignment is one of those then they cant get Ingame. Which means that this -can- be done, but isn't likely to happen at all.

They -can- gradually changed, but since ICly the server isn't use to drow it doesn't matter. Unlike on here, it's an IC thing to be use to drow so it's more likely to happen.

And from the Fun with Photoshop thread.....

In the end the Eilistraeeans are just Drow. The Shrine's in close proximity to their largest potential threats: Winya, the Grove and Kohlingen. From glancing at their forum every now and then Winya has quite a strong anti-drow prejudice, The Grove's had problems with Drow in the past that a chance to kill more they wouldn't turn down... and Paladins can smite Drow simply because their oath says "once evil, always evil." If Winya, the Grove and Kohlingen teamed up in the past to "pre-emptively remove a common foe," the Shrine and all the good Drow wouldn't be here today.

Unfortunately because the characters three years ago didn't take the IC initiative to wipe them out early, the Shrine's roots are deeply embedded enough that if someone does give them trouble, the whole server will be on the attacker's arse. Not ideal no... but it's the way things have evolved from the playerbases decisions (or lack of decisive action).

*shrug* Noone can say a player on Amia has no effect on the world.

Quote:

Not ideal no... but it's the way things have evolved from the playerbases decisions (or lack of decisive action).

I'd say it's perfectly ideal. The evolution of the playerbase's decisions or lack of have molded the server.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

And from the Fun with Photoshop thread.....

No, I actually play this:

This is an Eilistraeen Priestess and an Eilistraeen drow, adoring the moon that is indeed one of the most beautiful sights in the world. Why is that so hard to accept that after seen so much misery one couldn't look at the moon and adore it to death? Why wouldn't one embrace dance, embrace the sword of Eilistraee and decide that there is no life for drow besides on her embrace?

Honestly, I should play more my drow priestess, because the lore is just beautiful, everything about Eilistraeen is beautiful and I adore it. They are more like elves, they love dance, arts, and they fight the idea of evil every single day of their lives. They are like someone that discovered that there is another side of life that was never shown to them and when they look at it, they cannot help but want to be a part of it.

Some are just there because they don't want to be in the Underdark, but they are not as nice either, but they feel safe where they are, they made friends and they will use their abilities to protect their new home. They suffered in the hands of Lolth and they hate Lolthites much more than the Eilistraeens that love the good part of the religion that just ignore the existence of Lolth.

I think you lack the understanding of the deep size of the Eilistraeen people, of the way it can be both beautiful and challenging.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Not ideal no... but it's the way things have evolved from the playerbases decisions (or lack of decisive action).

I'd say it's perfectly ideal. The evolution of the playerbase's decisions or lack of have molded the server.

I think that's a decent enough summary.

Delarwyn wrote:

They are more like elves

I have two questions. One if they are alot like elves why not play a surface elf? and what is the diffrence between a drow who is an eilistraeen and a normal surface elf?

Last edited by Azrael on Mon, Apr 20 2009, 16:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

herkles wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

They are more like elves

I have two questions. One if they are alot like elves why not play a surface elf? and what is the diffrence between a drow who is an eilistraeen and a normal surface elf?

The color of their skin of course!

...and the prejudice that goes with it.

herkles wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

They are more like elves

I have two questions. One if they are alot like elves why not play a surface elf? and what is the diffrence between a drow who is an eilistraeen and a normal surface elf?

Surface Drow will often be judged on meeting, usually by Sun Elves and whoever else have a hatred for Drow i guess.

A normal Elf wouldn't get that kind of conflict from as many different people. Plus some people like it when other's discriminate their character due to their race, they seem to find it more fun and interesting to RP.

Azrael wrote:

...and the prejudice that goes with it.

Except on amia it's:

the color of their skin
...and the stats that go with it

More then the prejudice anyway.

herkles wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

They are more like elves

I have two questions. One if they are alot like elves why not play a surface elf? and what is the diffrence between a drow who is an eilistraeen and a normal surface elf?

I play elves too. But, why not? well:

1) Elves don't have the prejudices, status, life of a drow. I wouldn't have being spit in on the face and killed twice before level 3 if I was an elf.

2) I really like the dogma of Eilistraee. Be good to others, your best, help them all the time, if they insult you pretend you dont listen, help other drow to leave Lolth grasp. However, if someone hurt you or yours, kill them, their children and their pets. :twisted:

3) I think drow are sexy, they have a way of being that I really like. I enjoy the color, of black with white hair. I really think they are great characters. I tried to play an evil drow, but I got lost in the language thing in the underdark and I had one session of torture that was enough for me. I had some fun moments too with Arissa and other drow players, but I just didn't find my niche in there.

IronAngel wrote:

To be perfectly honest, 90% of Amians don't meet my personal standards of good RP. I think they should do their research, think outside the box, be creative with the lore, stop mixing IC and OOC blatantly (despite often tooting their horns about not doing this), and start taking more risks. And by "they", I probably mean you, the person reading this post.

Why am I saying this? Well, apart from making me feel better about myself, my point is this: people have different standards, different preferences and different levels of knowledge and experience with the game and setting. What you think is stupid, someone who knows less than you might think is perfectly OK and someone who knows even more might realize is not as stupid as commonly believed, after all. (For example, ~22% of drow worship Eilistraee. So much for drow being "exclusively evil.") You can think someone's RP is bollocks, but chances are, there's a third person who thinks the same about you. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to critisize you all the time and hold to you their standards. So treat others with that in mind. I don't whine about you and expect you to read every novel and game supplement about the land your character is from, so don't whine and expect others to meet your standards, either. (This is aimed at people in general, not anyone in particular.)

Agreed.
All books of pnp that is cannon states they are only guidelines.
Novels are individual or party adventures that are documented for more visual upon a world and what surrounds that person or group.

Games are for creativity. Live alittle with your own imagination and see to how Amia standards are for gaming. Every DM, Designer and developer changes something to make things more interesting for all. Rule thumping is over rated and kills the imagation that this game was designed from the very beginning of Pnp RPGs.

Not flaming but opening the minds of imagination with creativity. This the reason I like this server, it does use some of that one guideline from long ago.

Delarwyn wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

And from the Fun with Photoshop thread.....

No, I actually play this:

This is an Eilistraeen Priestess and an Eilistraeen drow, adoring the moon that is indeed one of the most beautiful sights in the world. Why is that so hard to accept that after seen so much misery one couldn't look at the moon and adore it to death? Why wouldn't one embrace dance, embrace the sword of Eilistraee and decide that there is no life for drow besides on her embrace?

Honestly, I should play more my drow priestess, because the lore is just beautiful, everything about Eilistraeen is beautiful and I adore it. They are more like elves, they love dance, arts, and they fight the idea of evil every single day of their lives. They are like someone that discovered that there is another side of life that was never shown to them and when they look at it, they cannot help but want to be a part of it.

Some are just there because they don't want to be in the Underdark, but they are not as nice either, but they feel safe where they are, they made friends and they will use their abilities to protect their new home. They suffered in the hands of Lolth and they hate Lolthites much more than the Eilistraeens that love the good part of the religion that just ignore the existence of Lolth.

I think you lack the understanding of the deep size of the Eilistraeen people, of the way it can be both beautiful and challenging.

Haha no I don't lack any understanding of Elistraaen people, I was just putting that up there in an attempt at humor. Sheesh.

I knows.

But, I was adding my beautiful image too

I play that....the not so well known group of drow thieves who are also at times good people that everyone seems to assume must be a wanna be drizzt because he acts nice and suave without being an Eilistraeen...and who just so happens not be a Llothite either.

shouldn't Ultrinian be at war with the Elistraeans? Llolth is pretty damn angry at heretics and would be just as angry at those who let the heretics thrive...

Cordor is in the underdark?

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