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Last edited by ticket on Sun, Apr 19 2009, 2:21 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Let's discuss the monkey grip feat. Worst case, best case, exploits, problems, opinions, criticisms, thoughts?

My idea is to use the mounted combat feat as a replacement to the monkey grip making this feat available to all.

I feel it's better than giving a free bonus feat to players who pay with DCs. A bit unfair isn't it?

There are some very nice character concepts that could be made if monkey grip is attainable without the cost of DCs. DM's will only have to check the character sheet and see if he has the mounted combat feat and 13 STR, and the dm could give the monkey grip widget.

Quote:

Prerequisites: STR 13

Benefit: You may use some weapons one size category larger than normal in exchange for a –2 penalty on attacks.

With this feat a Medium-sized character could hold a large weapon (such as a great sword) in one hand and a Small-sized character could hold a large weapon (such as a spear) with both hands or a Medium weapon (such a dwarven waraxe) in one hand. In theory this feat should also allow Medium-sized characters to hold Huge weapons, however such weapons have been confirmed not to appear in the game. This feat does not allow you to use an oversized double weapon or to wield an oversized light weapon in your off-hand.

Maybe make it harder to attain, Mounted Archery feat instead with 20 STR, and increase AB penalty?

Nyet, sorry. Nice idea, but it is far better in NWN1 than it is in NWN2, and ergo the realm of a DC request.

Looking at it like a "Free bonus feat" is the wrong way to go about it as well, imo. For NWN1 anyways.

just curios, i've known for a long while the feat was available through dc's, but whats the cost, or is there a thread that discussed it a bit more in detail

Depends on the case and it needs RP/Background story explaining the need for it.

Last I checked, it was 25 DCs.

I might be wrong, though.

ticket wrote:

I feel it's better than giving a free bonus feat to players who pay with DCs. A bit unfair isn't it?

25 DCs is considered free? :shock:

Its cost is 25 DCs and you need to submit a proper DC item request. You know, why your character can use it, their history, race etc.

Going on my current DC/hour intake that would take me approximately 3 centuries to attain.

Took me a good two years. I'm a slow DC earner though, 25 DCs isn't that hard to get.

That's true. I wish I could stop my addiction to burn them for levels. T_T

It's free in the sense that you don't have to invest in an actual feat while leveling up.

But considering how much time is spent earning the DCs and planning the concept of the character to ensure you'll play it for a while after spending the DCs on the widget, it isn't really as "free" as it's made out to be.

Or that's how I see it... I know Tormak doesn't play his Monkeygripper as much anymore.

TormakSaber wrote:

...but it is far better in NWN1 than it is in NWN2, and ergo the realm of a DC request.

Looking at it like a "Free bonus feat" is the wrong way to go about it as well, imo. For NWN1 anyways.

How does it work anyways? Does it make the character 1 size larger and thus can KD opponents better?

Allows medium sized characters to dual wield large weapons? If so, it's an improved monkey grip feat. Players would then need to invest in two-weapon fighting as well, getting mounted combat (monkey grip) and mounted archery (improved monkey grip).

A 3 feat investment should be about right. As to account for the extra KD power, you could add in improved power attack as another pre-requisite feat.

Quote:

Improved Monkey Grip
You can wield larger weapons than creatures of your size, even in your off hand.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Base Attack Bonus: +6, Monkey Grip, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: As with Monkey Grip, but applies to off-hand as well

You don't change size modifiers permanently, it's only to equip the items. Because monkeygrip was never designed for nwn and you're exploiting a bug to implement it, it costs DCs to "legalise" it.

ticket wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

...but it is far better in NWN1 than it is in NWN2, and ergo the realm of a DC request.

Looking at it like a "Free bonus feat" is the wrong way to go about it as well, imo. For NWN1 anyways.

How does it work anyways? Does it make the character 1 size larger and thus can KD opponents better?

Allows medium sized characters to dual wield large weapons? If so, it's an improved monkey grip feat. Players would then need to invest in two-weapon fighting as well, getting mounted combat (monkey grip) and mounted archery (improved monkey grip).

A 3 feat investment should be about right. As to account for the extra KD power, you could add in improved power attack as another pre-requisite feat.

Quote:

Improved Monkey Grip
You can wield larger weapons than creatures of your size, even in your off hand.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Base Attack Bonus: +6, Monkey Grip, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: As with Monkey Grip, but applies to off-hand as well

Uhhh.. .I have no idea what you're on about. It keeps youmedium and lets you weild a Large weapon in one hand. NWN isn't coded to allow you to dual wield them except for spears and that's only because Ettins in Bioware default use spears offhand.

The current system works fine. I'm not sure where you're getting any of your logic from, tbh.

Quote:

You don't change size modifiers permanently, it's only to equip the items. Because monkeygrip was never designed for nwn and you're exploiting a bug to implement it, it costs DCs to "legalise" it.

This is correct. No, I don't really play my monkey gripper much anymore because he's a Paladin and I can't handle the RP for long stints but damn is he fun to use.

I still think that dual wielding scythes would be terrifying, at least for damage output.

In comparison to dualwield rapier, not so much *cough*

TormakSaber wrote:

Uhhh.. .I have no idea what you're on about. It keeps youmedium and lets you weild a Large weapon in one hand. NWN isn't coded to allow you to dual wield them except for spears and that's only because Ettins in Bioware default use spears offhand.

The current system works fine. I'm not sure where you're getting any of your logic from, tbh.

I was guessing that the monkey grip widget in Amia isn't working properly, in the sense that it is overpowered or leaves the user one size bigger.

Anyways since it works fine, what makes it better (unbalanced?) that it requires 25 DC?

TormakSaber wrote:

... but it is far better in NWN1 than it is in NWN2, and ergo the realm of a DC request.

ticket wrote:

Anyways since it works fine, what makes it better (unbalanced?) that it requires 25 DC?

That's the standard price of a shapechange widget, from what I was told.

Don't exactly agree with that for the fact it it's not actually "changing" your appearance or even keeping you that way for a while.

I'm not contesting the price on the basis it pretty much deters people from just making a char that uses shield and scythe just to look cool. Which it does, but that's besides the point, I suppose.

What makes it "better" is that you don't get the -2 to attack that you would for the actual PnP feat. Thus, technically, its not only monkeygrip, but Monkeygrip + 2 AB, that levels it out to no penalty.

It's better because NWN1 as a mechanics system and Amia as a server are just better for it. It's a matter of environment.

I would assume and will be corrected that it allows you to wield a shield and use a 1d12 damage weapon in one hand. Thats 4 more damage than other martial weapons and +7 AC with a tower.

Using Uces 3 percent rule that means your doing 6 percent more damage on average and getting hit 21 percent fewer times than a character using a standard martial weapon and recieving an extra couple of mythable powers.

Cautionary note: the Three rule is riddled with exceptions, and only really works across a few points of AB/AC. Once you start adding or removing more than five, it breaks.

You're counting the shield AC twice there. A standard sword'n'board chap already has the +7AC, so compared to him, the monkeygripper gains none.

It's all about the damage, baby.

Oh, and the flexibility of being able to use your presumably feat-invested, potentially Flawless/Perfect/Wonderforge/DC weapon as a twohander when you're in a highly tanked and buffed party, to bag that 1.5 STR mod.

As far as I know, only spears and halberds have been passed as Monkeygrips, but since Large Mythal and shop weapons all exceed the 1d6/1d8 normally found on Medium/Small/Tiny, you really are getting a lot of bang for your buck.

Can you use the shapeshfting workaround in reverse, so that bastard swords can finally work the way they should? Go hin-sized, twohander your Tangrin's Rage and then pop back to being sixfoot and bag that 1.5 STRmod?

TormakSaber wrote:

It's better because NWN1 as a mechanics system and Amia as a server are just better for it. It's a matter of environment.

While it is true that in Amia the large weapons have already been given more love in the damage department (+2d4)... it's not like the monkey grip widget would be given to everyone for free, only to those who would invest in the feat(s) for it.

Oh well... So, coughing up 25 DC is the only way to get the widget?

ticket wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's better because NWN1 as a mechanics system and Amia as a server are just better for it. It's a matter of environment.

While it is true that in Amia the large weapons have already been given more love in the damage department (+2d4)... it's not like the monkey grip widget would be given to everyone for free, only to those who would invest in the feat(s) for it.

Oh well... So, coughing up 25 DC is the only way to get the widget? :(

Yes

Quote:

Can you use the shapeshfting workaround in reverse, so that bastard swords can finally work the way they should? Go hin-sized, twohander your Tangrin's Rage and then pop back to being sixfoot and bag that 1.5 STRmod?

Nupe. Tried messing with it.

I liked Vorn'ang - dridershape = large. Who wants to tangle with a monster with a heavy flail in one hand and a scimitar in the other. (Could wield large/med, with the same pens as mediums wield med/small. Was fantastiiic *blissed*)

I've forgot, does the monkey grip net you x1.5 STR damage? And shouldn't it give you some ab penalty? Anyways, at least if the str damage isn't right, it could be worhtwile to look into a solution for it. Seems like a popular DC request these days.

It should nullify the x1.5 damage modifier and give you -2 AB yes. But nwn was never designed for monkeygrip mechanically which is why they don't apply.

Damn... if only i'd have known about this... and had 25DC's! I've always (literally always) wanted to play a phalanx soldier style (Spear+Tower shield). When NWN2 came out i almost peed my pants at monkeygrip, until i saw the graphics. Using an overhand swing with a spear just made me cry, and kinda ruined the whole shield wall/phalanx fighting style. Ah well, now i have something to aim for i guess...

Monkey Grip feat

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