AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Quote:

Really now? So you actually believe that being able to manipulate the environment with the DM tools actually gives a DM more power over the setting then the few hundred players that are constantly effecting things through RP?

Well.. yes. But that's just kind of the definition of the thing in DnD. The DM runs stuff.

Quote:

And about these "Recruiting procedures" how is any person to know that they are held to any proper standard? A self-regulating body does not always do as good a job as it should.

Then I guess you'll just have to trust us and believe that we're more competent than the tinfoil hatted folks would have you believe.

TormakSaber wrote:

Then I guess you'll just have to trust us and believe that we're more competent than the tinfoil hatted folks would have you believe.

Nope sorry but I simply cannot trust a group that insists on doing things behind closed doors and who extend membership to only people that they deem worthy. Too much room for corruption.

It's not that I have anything against you lot. I just don't always TRUST you.

I'm amazed you've survived this long in life, then, to be perfectly honest. Rolling the dice behind the fabled DM screen is just one of the many things in life that you don't get to know the innter workings of unless you're the one behind the screen.

But..isn't that what DM's do to keep the environment fun? Keep things secret and keep you guessing? I mean it's not like they're the Illuminati..or ...what's that...Skull and Bones..

Why the heck is everyone so mad lately...sheesh...

Meh...For what it's worth I love you guys to death, the playerbase. Sometimes on really bad days I wanna hellball you all in the face but I've seen/met some amazing people on here and I'm proud to be on the upside of things so I can try to make your roleplay experience more fun.

I guess it's just discouraging when you give it your all and no matter what you do, someone's gonna think you suck. Most days you understand that's just how it is, some days it really hurts your feelings.

I'd really just like to see this thread pick up where it left off.

And yes, I'm being a carebear

I guess my previous suggestion was a bit too obscure. So, let's be a bit clearer.

When I look at Amia as a rational, calculating being I see assets. Assets are the things that are most vital to your core business, in manager speak. When it comes to Amia it's simple. Our main assets are:

1. The player community
2. The gameworld with its stories
3. The server and connection

The rest is peanuts.

As flattered as I am with Mago's remarks of my importance, I am replaceable. Every DM is replaceable. The entire staff is in the end replaceable. Individual players are replaceable as well, no problem.

I guess this may bruise an ego here and there, but alas. You are all a kind of ants. Some got big jaws and are called 'Staff', others are plain workers. In the end you are all coming from the same queen, you are nothing on your own, and when the nest goes down you all go down.

So for godsake stay of the sugar and behave.

Lalelilolu wrote:

But..isn't that what DM's do to keep the environment fun? Keep things secret and keep you guessing? I mean it's not like they're the Illuminati..or ...what's that...Skull and Bones..

Look like I said, it isn't that I don't like what you come up with while doing your thing behind those closed doors but the fact remains that you choose to do it behind those closed door and will thus inevitably invite suspicion into your motives and if they are benign or not.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Then I guess you'll just have to trust us and believe that we're more competent than the tinfoil hatted folks would have you believe.

Nope sorry but I simply cannot trust a group that insists on doing things behind closed doors and who extend membership to only people that they deem worthy. Too much room for corruption.

It's not that I have anything against you lot. I just don't always TRUST you.

Honestly, having been on both sides of the screen here on Amia at various points, I can say that the DM staff does it's damndest to hold true to standards of fairness and equality both for the setting and for it's players.

It may at times come off as unfair seeming, but I know for a fact the DMs do their best to keep it fair.

Honestly as well, doing things behind closed doors at least to start allows for refinement of ideas and concepts before they are brought forward to the players or carried out. So long as the DMs are discussing the major changes , which I am sure they are.. there is a thorough and fair process in the doings 'behind the screen'.

That's just kinda how the DM thing works here, sorry. As a DM, there's things players aren't privy to. As a plain employee, there's things I'm not privy to that my managers are. This is life. You can't go through it being completely untrusting and paranoid and thinking everyone is out to get you.

Well, you can, but I can't imagine it's much fun.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Accept the fact that DMs have more power than players over the setting and the reality. Over what happens. Over what becomes stable. It is a power that comes with responsiblity

Really now? So you actually believe that being able to manipulate the environment with the DM tools actually gives a DM more power over the setting then the few hundred players that are constantly effecting things through RP?

It gives a DM a greater ability to create large scale events but without the players to react to it then you're not really doing anything at all.

What I believe is irrelevant, and may or may not be what was stated above, because semantics aside, you are correct. I long ago acknolwedged that no one in the playerbase gives a damn what I think or how I feel.

I think you took it as me saying that is how it is, when I am actually explaining it from the perspective of the playerbase that seeks to push the "players and DMs are equal" agenda. They accept those things as facts, which leads to their unrest and inevitable consternation and complaint.

Well paranoia and resentment are going to exist for so long as none of the DMs are appointed through more democratic means. Hell even if you were all "elected" people would still whine and bitch but the fact remains that you guys choose to handle things (DM wise) in the way that you do and so you must accept the consequences.

We do.

Yossarin wrote:

It has taken me a long time as a DM to finally see it, but this statement is indicative of the insidious philosophy that causes almost every single problem I encounter with players.

I often see this philosophy of players and DMs being equals, or partners, as the core cause for players having unreasonable, irrational, and ultimately selfish expectations of the DM Team.

Is that because of a flaw in the concept, or a flaw in the players thinking? There's such things as Senior, and Junior partners

I think it has a much larger problem with people not being able to take... a 'No' well.

Quote:

It is enough to make me want to trade out my silk glove for an iron fist, if only to prove a point. But I am not that far gone. I see the Truth, but have enough dominion over myself not to stoop to the players' level of irrational, unreasonable, and selfish expectations. I merely acknowledge you for the wicked sons of bitches you are, and love you unconditionally, all the same.

Its difficult sometimes to see the forest for the trees. I am not niave enough to think an iron fist is never required. I do think open honest dialogues in this manner that communicate these points of view are needed for the betterment of the community. For getting everyone on the same page would make the work DMs have to do a lot easier.

I've always wanted to know more about the feelings and what the intent of the team were in these regards.

I do understand that some people will not want to hear something like that though. I'm an odd individual in that if I'm screwing up, I want to hear it, and be told, so that I can fix it. One cannot fix issues they do not realize are issues.

Communities usually are Self-regulating, if they know what the standards the people with the final say, expect of the community. In this case its the Staff.

Yossarin wrote:

We do.

Good, but then don't act like a victim. It isn't that we don't care about the DMs or their feelings but you ALL made your choice. If you don't like it then you can always quit being a DM. It may seem cold but it is the truth.

aurelius311 wrote:

I have to say, I wish we had more DM interaction on a daily basis in game. Not as a knock on DMs, but as plea.

As the Mago says, the playerbase has gotten used to life with minimal DM involvement. For some of us, we interact with DM's PCs frequently. I guess that counts in a way.

That said, I'd like to see much more DM involvement in B.
Moving to B has already resulted in 2 faction deaths; dwarves and shadowscape. You can't RP when there's no one to RP with.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

We do.

Good, but then don't act like a victim. It isn't that we don't care about the DMs or their feelings but you ALL made your choice. If you don't like it then you can always quit being a DM. It may seem cold but it is the truth.

To counter this point:

DMs are volunteers. When approached, it is not something that is compelled at all. Only after do they have ANYTHING compulsory. They are taking THEIR time out for YOUR possible enjoyment by running events and handling the DM's duties.

When I was offered the position back on Arileth, i was told that in taking it, I'd lose some of the magic of playing on NWN.

That's quite true but not for the reasons expected. I enjoyed DMing when I could mostly worry about creating events. It was the dealing with administrative side matters that got on my nerves, more then anything else.

Yeah, but Equalizer is right. I act victimized because I feel victimized. I'm rapidly approaching burnout, as Xaviera said, and earnestly hoping for some breath of fresh air.

Truth told Yossarin, that isn't right or fair at all.

If I am a part of that, I am sorry I honestly am. I don't think it's fair for DMs to feel victimized , especially for volunteering as they do.

Yossarin wrote:

Yeah, but Equalizer is right. I act victimized because I feel victimized. I'm rapidly approaching burnout, as Xaviera said, and earnestly hoping for some breath of fresh air.

*scrolling up, trying to find where the topic turned from a discussion of factions to a crucifixion of DMs*

...Um, guys?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

I have to say, I wish we had more DM interaction on a daily basis in game. Not as a knock on DMs, but as plea.

As the Mago says, the playerbase has gotten used to life with minimal DM involvement. For some of us, we interact with DM's PCs frequently. I guess that counts in a way.

That said, I'd like to see much more DM involvement in B.
Moving to B has already resulted in 2 faction deaths; dwarves and shadowscape. You can't RP when there's no one to RP with.

This can be solved by more players logging onto Server B more often.I always see 65/65 on A, but ususally no more than 30 on B. More players and activity on B = more DMs on B.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

This can be solved by more players logging onto Server B more often.I always see 65/65 on A, but ususally no more than 30 on B. More players and activity on B = more DMs on B.

Off topic:
It's probably a chicken-egg situation. There's probably a good reason why people aren't logging on to B?

My own theory is that B isn't self-sustaining, in the sense that you can't feasibly have a character go from level 3 to 30 just by staying at B. Not much shops in B, for gear and potions (complete).

I always loved Kehm, and hope that someday the place could be expanded some more, adding a cart system, roads, and more areas to explore. Traveling by boat from place is place is a huge disconnect in B, unlike in A, where many of the interesting encounters happens while my characters are in their adventure/hunt or just plain walking.

And this isn't really a problem.

What was the original purpose/goal for Bmia anyways?
I thought it was made to lessen the load/lag, and in that respect it passes with flying colors.

But it is sad to see that B isn't being used as much as A, especially with all the hard work and effort put into it.

:wink:

And obviously, my view is entirely action-oriented.

I get really annoyed when I see someone crucifying DMs.

They do their hardest to try and make the game fun for everyone, and have to make decisions that affect multiple people, but if it doesn't swing one persons way, all they get is "Aww the DMs are biased" and a whole bunch of shit.

They are volunteers, and if they don't enjoy doing what they're doing, they won't.

Anyway, that's enough of a rant from my end.

As for B, I generally don't hang around there because there's usually 3 or 4 people on the entire server, compare to ~40 on A.

Yossarin wrote:

Yeah, but Equalizer is right. I act victimized because I feel victimized. I'm rapidly approaching burnout, as Xaviera said, and earnestly hoping for some breath of fresh air.

I think DMs would have a LOT more fun if they were allowed to help run events. I try and create situations in the game world that adds to a story plot, one that DMs could sink their teeth into and get to work, working and furthering the story along. Sadly, that's only happened once from an NPC standpoint. I've always stated that DMs can possess NPCs at any time and interact with the PC factions down in Underport.

With surface factions, I guess it happens a fair bit more. Life amongst the Tarkuulians has been fun but mostly because Frey makes Tarkuul a constant bastion of RP hub for those there. I think that's the key thing here, you need RP hubs but that happens only if one or two players (at least) stick to their little areas to build an on the ground presence in that area. Then, if you go to that area, you'll always be guaranteed an RP opportunity.

I try to do the same for Underport, others try and do it for Bendir Dale (e.g., dramatic prince) and Valas for the forest, carter for winya, etc...

I'll be the first to admit doing that in a city that's mostly dead is very, very lonely as a player. But over time, people start to expect it and more come and more come. Pretty soon you've got yourself an RP hub.

DMs could help foster this by making those RP hubs come alive, via NPCs. Most of the time in Underport, the illithid are statues. Whilst in reality, in such a place, the illithid would interact with their player base there. That doesn't happen. Not in 2 years has that ever happened....In short, Underport is a dead port town, its got 20 or so NPCs, many with names, not one has yet interacted with any of my PCs in the timeframe I've been there (beyond the basic auto script text). There's been only one incident where that happened and it was an unknown Duergar mage...

I'd like more interaction with my environment, more DMs possessing NPCs to interact with players, less of them playing their PCs and then doing admin tasks DM side.

Quote:

less of them playing their PCs

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

less of them playing their PCs

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

Quoted for Emphasis, agreement and support: AGAIN DMs are Bloody Volunteers.

They do have if memory serves a set required amount of time they have to do so long as their life and situation allows. They are human beings. Do not push them more then they need to be, for crying out loud!

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

less of them playing their PCs

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

QFE. DMs are volunteering their time to help other people, so they shouldn't be allowed to have their fun? If they want to play their PC they have every right to play their PC, their 'duties' are those of a volunteer, not an employee.

That wholly self-centered statement has left me gobsmacked.

Dm's aren't automatons to please and appease your whims, they're people, they have feelings and like to have fun just like anyone else at their HOBBY. I'll wager that if people stopped saying such utterly callous things in disregard for their feelings and treat them as human beings they'd find DMing to be a slightly less stressful hobby.

Jesus.

soundofastream wrote:

I'd like more interaction with my environment, more DMs possessing NPCs to interact with players, less of them playing their PCs and then doing admin tasks DM side.

I recon if you offer to pay them a salary, some of them might entertain your idea. Until then, stop whining.

Must say, I agree with Yossi that this kind of discussions eat up motivation to do stuff. Which is visible in many DMs.

I'll DM More when it's less like work.

The key to that is making it less stressful.

I deal enough with annoying customers, irritating clients and outright hostile patrons at my workplace whom love to throw insult to injury.

I'd rather not get that during my hobby, such as this entire threat now epitomises.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

WonWon wrote:

I'll DM More when it's less like work.

The key to that is making it less stressful.

I deal enough with annoying customers, irritating clients and outright hostile patrons at my workplace whom love to throw insult to injury.

I'd rather not get that during my hobby, such as this entire threat now epitomises.

That is something you can arrange yourself, though. I personally think you should be ignoring a lot of the management stuff and do events, events, and events.

I think Infernal gave a good example of how to deal with this. You can complain when you feel demotivated, you can also change tactics. Close the DM forums, create some areas, and go down there and do something you enjoy yourself. This also amuses players, and helps you to regain some positivity.

In short: I don't think you can just blame the players in this case. It's also what you do (to) yourself.

You can, in fact, just ignore this thread and spend your time playing your PC.

Phearnun wrote:

I think its just that people start getting way too personal over a matter concerning what a few people see as beneficial for the server and others would like to see it implemented in a different way and start throwing unfounded insults when they cant make a serious point.

That's not how this DMs vs. Players debate begun, though. What you refer to could be Players vs. Players, as well. I think I know the exact posts where the DMs vs. Players squabble started in this topic...

Grymia wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

less of them playing their PCs

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

Quoted for Emphasis, agreement and support: AGAIN DMs are Bloody Volunteers.

They do have if memory serves a set required amount of time they have to do so long as their life and situation allows. They are human beings. Do not push them more then they need to be, for crying out loud!

I like it when DMs play their PCs. It means they're working the ground.
I like it when DMs log on their client. It means they're available to help with admin and events.
Maintain the Balance, as the druids would put it. Too much on one side upsets the balance. :lol:

Last edited by Pony on Wed, Nov 06 2019, 12:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Dev Disco wrote:

WonWon wrote:

I'll DM More when it's less like work.

The key to that is making it less stressful.

I deal enough with annoying customers, irritating clients and outright hostile patrons at my workplace whom love to throw insult to injury.

I'd rather not get that during my hobby, such as this entire threat now epitomises.

That is something you can arrange yourself, though. I personally think you should be ignoring a lot of the management stuff and do events, events, and events.

I think Infernal gave a good example of how to deal with this. You can complain when you feel demotivated, you can also change tactics. Close the DM forums, create some areas, and go down there and do something you enjoy yourself. This also amuses players, and helps you to regain some positivity.

In short: I don't think you can just blame the players in this case. It's also what you do (to) yourself.

You can, in fact, just ignore this thread and spend your time playing your PC.

'Swhat I'm doing

Just saying that, while the players aren't soley to blame by any means - they're hardly helping with threads like this.

True, but as far as I see it was a DM that actually started the off topic part, or at least attributed greatly. Pot and kettle, blah blah blah.

I don't get the point of all of this fuss and bruised feelings anyway. None of this comes as a surprise to me, it's version 5.34 of the same old topic that's been around for ages. Kinda like Swine Flu, it takes a new guise now and then but it's still the same thing every winter.

Just shrug your shoulders, blame the weather, take a beer, and do the right thing. Your own thing.

Wait is this really a topic that started about too many factions???

Hehe, yes. Look at the first few posts!

Yes, to many factions. Time for another horde-like attack to cause them to band together and form large singular factions.

As for the more sensitive issue, it's just the same thing I've always said that routinely gets ignored.

If an issue keeps popping up, clearly something needs fixing, ignoring it is only a temporary answer. Until people are willing to unbiasedly and calmly look at the issue, and discuss what needs fixing, nothing will ever change. As it stands, to many people are not willing to do so, and I doubt that will ever change either.

So... Just flicking through those last few posts, what do you DMs think we, as players, can do to make your experience as DMs on Amia more enjoyable/manageable? 'Cause it's hardly fair for players to go on and on ragging you lovely volunteers, in my opinion. So many players expect you DMs to do things to entertain and look after us, but in turn, shouldn't we players be doing something in turn to entertain you DMs and help you out wherever possible?

My opinion on any matter hitherto is that i'm off to get this fence post out of my ass.

Just as an aside, Small factions form when theres no external threat or common foe. Bigger ones appear when bigger ones threaten.

Where the hell did all this pinko democratic DM election nonsense come from? What's the deal? If you're reading a book and you decide you don't like the author, read another book.

People, remember that you're not Frodo in Amias story. I forget all the time and will continue to formulate crazed plots that have little to no hope of success, it's fun and keeps me busy while I wait for the parts for my orbital laser.

I also get frustrated when these plots prove to be impossible. What I don't do is blame the person who has to tell me that, irrespective of how cool the idea may be, it would step on too many other PCs toes. Remember folks that when a DM says no, they are not saying it to hurt you or gratify themselves (except Tormak, he's evil), they are saying it because if your plot or plan was allowed to continue it would impact negatively on the game experience of other Players.

So, don't blame the DMs, blame each other for being to precious with our PCs. Be willing to lose IC and plenty more conflict plots will be possible; may also reduce the double-crossing rates. The DMs are Amias Atticus Finch, and thought they are a pain when they ruin your story, you need someone to do the dirty work.

So, stop crying and get back to the topic at hand, asking the DMs to help us conglomerate factional RP...

I don't think anyone's blaming anyone. We're simply trying to decide what would be more fun and how to make things work abit more for everyone.

Lets remember what a Dungeon Master is suppose to do. He or she is narrator, storyteller, they make the world around us come alive. The interact with us through NPCs, monsters and the local environment. They're also an umpire and arbitrator and their word is final and their job is to make it fun for us. They're also allowed to tell us what we can and can't do.

A player's role, is supposed to be to play the hero in the story or campaign. Or in NWN, also the villain. So, when there is a threat the size of the hoarde, the heroes find a way to combat them, by creating alliances or a resistance army or whatever, to combat the enemy. The villain PCs on the other hand, take the side of the major threat or find that they too are having their turf threatened so also attempt to thwart the new major threat (posed in the game world, by the Dungeon Master).

The Black Caravan campaign is a good example of this style of RP. More of it will aid in doing what Mr. Mago asks for OOC, but, will do it in an IC way. We just need more DMs willing and able to bring up more stories like this one or other versions of the epic fantasy story. We need more players to give these DMs the headspace they need to come up with said plots but also to aid in building up the story told in a given campaign.

So I agree with Tormak that it can be handled in character, factions gettng larger for instance my merging. But that it needs DM input to help push/pull/aid it along, is without a doubt, also true.

DMs if they wish to create a memorable character, why don't they develop some cool personalities in the Arch Villain archtype? The Anti-hero, and play that NPC as their 'main', whilst DM side? Just a suggestion...I'm not saying don't play your PC, I just think if you were to put the same effort into building up NPCs into memorable characters, we'd have quite a game world that starts to come alive.

soundofastream wrote:

The Anti-hero, and play that NPC as their 'main', whilst DM side? Just a suggestion...I'm not saying don't play your PC, I just think if you were to put the same effort into building up NPCs into memorable characters, we'd have quite a game world that starts to come alive. :)

Is nice!

There's a large disconnect there, Sound. You see, they're the ones that pull the strings and set the ground-rules for 'What DMs are and do here'. If DMs here played favorites or blacklisted, certain folk would have been -long gone- from the forums and servers.

Yoss put several points in this thread rather succinctly, and after a bit of mulling, I've come to the conclusion that his point of 'DMs and players being partners here isn't the right thing' is right on the money.

PnP and the DM, and Amia and the DM Role, are vastly different things that share the same name, I had been trying to liken those for their similarities, but that won't work here.

It seriously torques me off that they have to feel stressed at all, and the fact that they're willing to put up with people that go so far as to tell them they're doing everything wrong every day and not outright just start banning folk, remarks on -how- lucky we are to have people that are willing to put it off.

People in one breath say thanks, and in other complain. You can't blame them for feeling they're surrounded by hypocrisy, because they are.

The best thing we can do with helping out DMs is stop whining oocly, and RP until we get what we want for our characters, or fail to do so, but it'd be an awesome ride.

TormakSaber wrote:

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

It has been proven on many different servers that not allowing DMs to play their PCs creates a very poor athmosphere and the DMing is much better when they are allowed to also have PCs.

It is a dumb idea to advise DMs to not play PCs.

I find nothing wrong with the DM team to be honest, everyone I've dealt with has been cherry and down right accommodating. If anyone is having any trouble with them it is probably that person's fault.

People need to RP more and stop trying to find inane ways they are being slighted.

Phantom-D wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

If I want to play my PC, I'll play my PC.

It has been proven on many different servers that not allowing DMs to play their PCs creates a very poor athmosphere and the DMing is much better when they are allowed to also have PCs.

It is a dumb idea to advise DMs to not play PCs.

DMs not playing PCs works marvellously well on PotM.

I want them to play their PC's so they don't get out of touch what it's like to be a PC.

Too many factions?

Who is online