AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I have the lesser Shadowhelm, if there is a lesser does it means that somewhere in game there is a Shadowhelm? And if yes, why not being sold at the lvl 10 store for SD?

And why is the top belt for shadowdancer a +3 in hide only?

I have people that with items got over 100 spot. While the items available for dancers will only get us to 95. Then we need to use the epic feature to 105. At least that was what I got. Unless you go all rogue and SD and dont add any third class. I think we need better items in the SD lvl 10 store.

Even the shortswords kind of sucks.

"Shadowhelm" is a Greater Artifact. It will never be for sale.

The rest of your topic will be summed up as follows:

Giving SDs better gear?

*Laughs you out of the topic*

Meeeeeeh!!!!!

And I thought people would say that.

I still think we could have more +5 hide and MS thingies. *shrugs*

Delarwyn wrote:

I think we need better items in the SD lvl 10 store.

*giggles* I've been told otherwise. Let's open a shop for DwD only, w00t?

well, you laugh? A fighter can get to 114 spot with gears only. A SD can get to over 125. A Wizard as well. I try to hide with my miserable 105 hide and everyone can see me.. that kind of sucks. Honestly.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

I think we need better items in the SD lvl 10 store.

*giggles* I've been told otherwise. Let's open a shop for DwD only, w00t?

more like shifter only loot, we need it the most.

Delarwyn wrote:

well, you laugh? A fighter can get to 114 spot with gears only. A SD can get to over 125. A Wizard as well. I try to hide with my miserable 105 hide and everyone can see me.. that kind of sucks. Honestly.

Well.. OK. Let's see.

Let's have an Elf shadowdancer with 40 dex at 30. That's eays enough. 33 ranks + 15 mod, 48. +10 for epic focus is 58, + 50 more is 108.

Let's make his detecting friend an elf too. Let's say he's a rogue too, because rogue is an easy class that gets Spot as a class skill. We'll be generous and give him 10 wisdom: Most rogues have 8. He gets 33 ranks + 2 for being an elf, so 35. We'll even give him Alertness for 37. No wisdom bonus so nothing there. Epic Spot focus gives us 47, 50 more for 97.

This isn't counting the many hidden modifiers to spot, hide, move silent, and listen, and, the biggest factor: The large fact that spot gear is utter cack to fight in, but hide gear is bread and butter utility, combat, and all day every day gear for a shadowdancer. So you have an SD capable of outhiding his active detecting buddy 50ish% of the time, and his friend's not even in his "real" combat gear.

SDs are fine. Truuuuust me.

Shifter can pretend to be a deer and if he does it right, no one can identify him and he can just escape quite well enough.

If I am spying and I am seeing, because all the investment I made in hiding and MS, I will most likely to get easily killed. We have suckies AC, suck constitution, we do low damage and now we cannot even hide anymore. I think Shadowdancers got quite nerfed.

Delarwyn wrote:

well, you laugh? A fighter can get to 114 spot with gears only. A SD can get to over 125. A Wizard as well. I try to hide with my miserable 105 hide and everyone can see me.. that kind of sucks. Honestly.

Uhhh, how? The skill bonus cap from gear is 50. You telling me a fighter can get to 64 Spot from Ranks/Feats/Wisdom? 43 with max ranks and Epic Skill Focus Spot. You'd need a 52 Wisdom score to get a +21 Modifier.

Delarwyn wrote:

Shifter can pretend to be a deer and if he does it right, no one can identify him and he can just escape quite well enough.

If I am spying and I am seeing, because all the investment I made in hiding and MS, I will most likely to get easily killed. We have suckies AC, suck constitution, we do low damage and now we cannot even hide anymore. I think Shadowdancers got quite nerfed.

If you had bad AC on a *shadowdancer*, you... I... No words.

Low con? OK, you can have that one I guess.

Low damage? Ummm... sneaksneaksneakcripstrikesneakstabcripstrike.

And I aalready did the hidey-math.

Well, that is what she told me she got as a fighter 114 spot. And she can see Ayla since three levels ago with Ayla wearing all her gears and potion and mask ring.

*shrugs*

And yes, I got 40 AC. that is low. And I got all gear I could find to give me dexterity to boost it.

And yes, sneaksneak.. crippling strike, epic dodge all good. But, go and mingle with a fighter that will do 108 damage of critical. That is everyone in my hunting party. That will kill her so quickly. Then, all the dev. critical in game that will kill her with a blow. Add to them spot gear.

I think we got screwed because now, spot gear is as easy to find as blank scroll.

Willow was selling a +11 spot mask. you know when I will find a +11 hide mask? I doubt I ever will.

Uh, that's because you're wearing the *+15 hide/MS cloak*.

40 AC is a pittance. You're not geared properly: That's user error, not class error.

And as for raw DPS, no, you're probably not going to outdamage the beefcake WM, but you're still doing sneak attack damagea nd reducing the strength of spawns. Dev Crit isn't a facctor, between Epic Dodge, HIPS, and the AC you are capable of having, nigh nothing should hit you.

Dude...These 108 spot fighters are few and far between. You are going HiPS the pants off almost everyone you met. Trust me on that one.

SD is second to like mage and dragon/monk/shifter. You are fine unless you borked your build.

If I take that cloak off I will reduce my hide by +15. So it will be 90 hide. That wont do for most people with basic spot gear Tormie.

Yes, I can boost her to 45 with different cloak, belt and boots. I keep them for when I dont want to hide. But, all my gear is SD gear with hide/ MS on it. And I only got to 105.

Well, maybe I am not using the best gear. Any advise?

I wa ssaying that the +11 spot helm is still worse than your cloak. And it is. I think you're far overexaggerating your problem. "Basic Spot Gear" will not catch you.

Delarwyn wrote:

If I take that cloak off I will reduce my hide by +15. So it will be 90 hide. That wont do for most people with basic spot gear Tormie.

Yes, I can boost her to 45 with different cloak, belt and boots. I keep them for when I dont want to hide. But, all my gear is SD gear with hide/ MS on it. And I only got to 105.

Well, maybe I am not using the best gear. Any advise?

Man, I got like 85 h/ms and almost always hide just fine. I think you are basing everything off like one or two people you met, probably someone with stronger builds and better gear.

97 spot/listen doesn't beat 108 hide/ms

... is there any way to actually spot an sd without casting true seeing?

Last edited by Delarwyn on Tue, Jun 09 2009, 21:40 PM, edited 2 times in total.

my build have all the goodies I could ask, epic dodge, epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization, crippling strike, +12 or something of dext with all the gear. She is a lvl 10 SD, 13 Rogue and 6 fighter. I have 30 hide, 30 ms, 30 spot from skill points. I have 30 tumble too. I have epic hide. or I will have all of it by the end of my next 3 levels. So, I think I did it right this time... Or I hope so.

She cannot do many epic things. Beholder is a blast of dying, but, she can hold her grounds fairly with weaker grounds and builds yes. But, I just feel ugh, when I try to hide and someone swaps gear and sees me.

Like the drow that I was hiding from, like Arenia, Like when I was in Tarkuul. Only Paladins are able to escape me up to now, and most people relaxed in Cordor. But, they just swap stuff and ta da, it is like they burst me with light.

Well, I may have had bad luck then... I will check upon others for a while more Tormie. And I will try and see if I am still missing something.. somewhere. Just recently I found a robe that I didnt see before. So maybe I am still needing to search better.

TormakSaber wrote:

And as for raw DPS, no, you're probably not going to outdamage the beefcake WM

lol tormak said DPS

Moridan_X wrote:

97 spot/listen doesn't beat 108 hide/ms

... is there any way to actually spot an sd without casting true seeing?

Yes, but NWN's stealth engine is innately skewed in favor fo the stealther, even with spot and active detect.

My bard/assassin/SD had an AC of the upper 40's before she was even close to epic and even at level 21 I can still manage to hide from the majority of characters I come across.

As for the damage... well, you got to have a trade off somewhere. You get sick AC, all the nifty feats, etc. If you wanted to do massive damage, you should have gone Fighter/WM or something.

SD are not soloing machines for the most part. They can do it, but it takes a while to make any real progress. *shrug* I don't see any problem with them. By the time my SD is maxed out she should be able to hide from just about anyone other than another sneak more than 50% of the time. Even against sneaks she should have a pretty good chance.

I'd have to agree with Tormak, I think that you're either got improper gear on your SD. As for getting better gear... well, shop around and see what you can find. If we tell where all the really good gear is at, then everyone (instead of almost everyone) will have it.

Last edited by Delarwyn on Tue, Jun 09 2009, 22:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Man, I got like 85 h/ms and almost always hide just fine. I think you are basing everything off like one or two people you met, probably someone with stronger builds and better gear.

She is 92 now at level 26. I am adding the next points for the next lvl and the +10 for epic hide. and Got to 105 after next lvl. If I still went 2 more rogues for the points I could get to 109 or something. But I am getting 2 fighters.

I am positive that I got all the gears available. i went to abyss, I went to the gauntlet, I went to SD lvl 10 store and all the other minor stores I could find. Maybe I need to visit the underdark. If I can sneak inside the city

And Tormie I only now saw the complement of your second post.

Quote:

Let's make his detecting friend an elf too. Let's say he's a rogue too, because rogue is an easy class that gets Spot as a class skill. We'll be generous and give him 10 wisdom: Most rogues have 8. He gets 33 ranks + 2 for being an elf, so 35. We'll even give him Alertness for 37. No wisdom bonus so nothing there. Epic Spot focus gives us 47, 50 more for 97.

Add whatever point for the roll. *nodnods* i was taught that the spotter roll and add the dice point and the stealth person is only what he got for hide.

Delarwyn wrote:

She cannot do many epic things. Beholder is a blast of dying, but, she can hold her grounds fairly with weaker grounds and builds yes. But, I just feel ugh, when I try to hide and someone swaps gear and sees me.

If you're dumb enough to take a dex build to a place where you need high will and fort saves it kinda your own fault you die quick, no?

Also, maybe you shouldn't rely on HIPS so much if you want to live when someone swaps gear to see you... for example use a darkness item (have a mage craft you a wand or so) and sneak him to death while he's in crap gear for combat? (just giving one of the most obvious strategies)

She can cast with her items 5 darkness per day. *nodnods* not too bad, I am doing everything right I think.. And that is a good advise actually.

And yes, I knew I would die, but 81 xp per kill is too tempting.

Delarwyn wrote:

And yes, I knew I would die, but 81 xp per kill is too tempting.

Then go to abyss where you will keep your buffs, you don't have death effects and you can HIPS-Spam-abuse so they critters will break attack due to the way it is coded.

Same XP less death.

Or even better: go to an easier area where you will spend less time killing stuff and gain XP quicker then at beholders or abyss (at least if you're on your own)

never on my own with my SD. Takes too long...

But, Abyss has that new creatures that are immune to sneak and that can see me and they break my neck.

But, my friends allowed me to follow them even without helping much, what was neat.

And monsters I dont mind much. I dont want to farm or anything. Alynne is my farmer. But, I spy on lvl 30 characters, I deal with murderours built on her job. And I can get ridiculously owned if I failed in my lie when I am caught. And yes, I got caught some times already. Everyone has a umber hulk, a dragon, gears and such. SD life is hard... very hard.

Delarwyn wrote:

SD life is hard... very hard.

... Uh. I can only frown.

Delarwyn wrote:

well, you laugh? A fighter can get to 114 spot with gears only. A SD can get to over 125. A Wizard as well. I try to hide with my miserable 105 hide and everyone can see me.. that kind of sucks. Honestly.

...uh?

33 Ranks + 50 Items/Spells Bonus + 17 Ability Mod (highly improbably for any ability score) + 2 Elf + 2 Alertness + 10 ESF + 3 SF = 117.

How did you get 125?

There is also Blooded (+2 Spot, +2 Initiative).

I believe Tormak is correct.

Also, I go by quite well with my 75 Hide / MS monk, so it's not like everyone is walking around kitted with +50 Spot / Listen gear all the time.

oh, she is fine for hiding from anyone not expecting. She just hit 105 today. And I think it will beat most people hanging around. But, as soon as someone thinks there is a SD here. You will see many people swapping their items.

But, it is fine. That is what I have to work with, I will work with what I got. I started the thread wondering if there were a better helmet. No, there isn't one available. And at least now I learned how to calculated spot and hide points as well.

And Wonwon, if it was 125 maybe a player was exaggerating. I don't know how to count that. Or at least I didn't up to now.

Delarwyn wrote:

And I think it will beat most people hanging around. But, as soon as someone thinks there is a SD here. You will see many people swapping their items.

Or we can not give a rat's ass about spot and just shapechange or summon pseudodragon.

I was always under the impression that the SD store items needed to be nerfed?

To what? Make a SD 10 and come to visit. I bet you wont find anything really woooo.. look this.

Build topic?

Delarwyn: You don't have Epic Dodge yet, judging from your buffed DEX modifier. That one will help you a lot in fights when you get it (and if you don't, you should rebuild).

Also, Hide vs. Spot is an opposed role. Both sides add a d20. This matters in combat, but not in Spying, where you will roll a 1 at some point and the other one will roll a 20. But it has been said many times, that spying is almost impossible, because anyone with UMD can just Polymorph into something that can see any SDer, independent of skills (Umberhulk, you know).

Also you might want to look into the mythal crafting system for better gear. It's hard work, but that's how everyone has to do it. Some other SDs can probably tell you what to do. To put gear into perspective: Anything with +5 Hide/+5 MS on it is good gear. +5 Skill is the highest bonus you can get with the MCS, and it costs you a lot. Anything above +5 is awesome, even if it's just +6.

Finally ... You don't have to be a powerbuild to play. You only have to be a powerbuild to win often in PvP. Assuming your stealth skills are now fixed (100+) you will get away from many PvP fights, without needing an out. Even without a powerbuild, you probably have a good chance at winning against devcritters once you have good gear and know how to kill things effectively.

Look around the forum (build topic, but also many PvP discussions) to see how SDers fight. Or just ask in game and practise a lot!

Regards, Ts

Delarwyn wrote:

To what? Make a SD 10 and come to visit. I bet you wont find anything really woooo.. look this.

When utilized properly and appropriate combinations put together to become a situational, variable gearset; those items come into their own.

As mean as it sounds; maybe you just need more practice working out how to Build and how to utilize equipment?

SDs also have the advantage of casting silence which renders the listen skill item useless.

21 Hide/MS is enough for most spawns, and people, I met so far.

No, not talking about my SD but.. my druid.

Seriously. Unless someone actively invest points into spot and listen, which most don't. Then they don't see anyone with more than 20 in hide and MS.
Well, except for priests or other druids. But that is another matter.

SD item's are generally fine. Perhaps the only poop in an SD's pants is that TS lets everyone see them. TS items where avaliable quite widely at one stage, probably still are. Which is why it likely seem's like everyone can see you, because they can, because they have TS cast...All the time.

Bioware TS lets everyone see them.

Cast-TS gives you a +10 to Spot and that's it.

HellScourge wrote:

21 Hide/MS is enough for most spawns, and people, I met so far.

No, not talking about my SD but.. my druid.

Seriously. Unless someone actively invest points into spot and listen, which most don't. Then they don't see anyone with more than 20 in hide and MS.
Well, except for priests or other druids. But that is another matter.

It's one of those skills where people either go all-out or nothing, it would seem.

Even I can build a decent shadowdancer with the gear available on Amia.

That's a LOT said, btw.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

SD item's are generally fine. Perhaps the only poop in an SD's pants is that TS lets everyone see them. TS items where avaliable quite widely at one stage, probably still are. Which is why it likely seem's like everyone can see you, because they can, because they have TS cast...All the time.

True Seeing spell only gives +10 spot though right?

True seeing feat on the umber hulk and dragon shapes/familiar is the one that can see hips.

ticket wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

SD item's are generally fine. Perhaps the only poop in an SD's pants is that TS lets everyone see them. TS items where avaliable quite widely at one stage, probably still are. Which is why it likely seem's like everyone can see you, because they can, because they have TS cast...All the time.

True Seeing spell only gives +10 spot though right?

True seeing feat on the umber hulk and dragon shapes/familiar is the one that can see hips.

Yes. The spell TS gives you +10 Spot and See Invisibility.

The Bioware-standard can see straight through hide and that's what's on Umberulks and dragons.

If you really think that SD gear should be better, I advice you to look at the gear non-SDs have to use.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

And I think it will beat most people hanging around. But, as soon as someone thinks there is a SD here. You will see many people swapping their items.

Or we can not give a rat's ass about spot and just shapechange or summon pseudodragon.

mmmmmm pleeeease shapechange! Please do this! Especially in combat! Shadowdancer slove in when their very very dangerous foe is now an umberhulk or a dragon, especially when they're not dragonshifters! It makes it so much easier to gut you over and over, and you can't fight back for anything worth a damn.

TormakSaber wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Delarwyn wrote:

And I think it will beat most people hanging around. But, as soon as someone thinks there is a SD here. You will see many people swapping their items.

Or we can not give a rat's ass about spot and just shapechange or summon pseudodragon.

mmmmmm pleeeease shapechange! Please do this! Especially in combat! Shadowdancer slove in when their very very dangerous foe is now an umberhulk or a dragon, especially when they're not dragonshifters! It makes it so much easier to gut you over and over, and you can't fight back for anything worth a damn.

Spam Earthquake.

Mmm, earthquake, delicious reflex saves. Yes, spam that while I sit in your face and get AoO sneak attacks, because you can't target ME, or I'll HIPS away. So you target the ground, meaning you're not in combat with me, and I get flanksneaks.

mmmmm wail of the banshee slam.

Storm of vengeance.
Elemental swarm.
Elemental form?

Ok, the later is not that good really.. Not enough AC or anything to be worth it.

And yep, Wail of the banshee slam. Although you can counter that with +fort gear. Or Death Ward.

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