|
|
|
Nekhy
|
 Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 8:05 AM |
|
|
Player
|
|
Right, so we've been talking wings. The flappy things on your back that some players have a fondness for. In particular, the price for the flappy pieces of skin on your back.
The old price was 50 DCs, but now it'll be lower: 25 DCs. Deflation, global financial crisis and all that jazz, see.
But before you jump the flappy-things-in-a-can bandwagon, realise that the standards for wings has not gone down, even if the price deflated. You can't just ask for wings if you got 25 DCs in your pocket and expect to get some.
No, you are still asked to provide us an impeccable RP reason why your character sprouts wings. Hint: the more conservative reasons tend to succeed here, over the avant-garde lore experiments of pink dwarves protruding baby blue angel wings because Puff the Magic Dragon did it.
In any case, if you're hoping for a pair of wings, I wish you happy DC hunting!
|
|
|
|
 |
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 8:07 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
|
I don't, simply because the idea of "hunting for DCs" nags me on a principle level!
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 8:13 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
|
I'm glad that this has happened! A tad annoyed it was after I stopped playing my Half Devil :P but I think it's a much more 'realistic' pricing.
Does this affect tails as well? Weren't they the same price (or do I know nothing)?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 8:14 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
|
It was never really brought up or discussed, but yes, I suppose they're 25 too.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nekhy
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 8:21 AM |
|
|
Player
|
|
I just started a discussion on this on the DM forums, so what Tormak said is subject to change, maybe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gunz
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:04 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
|
Eh... I guess it's a good thing since a skin change is the same price and all. I just wish it was harder for people to get them. I hate seeing so many people with wings. It's just... eh... I'm a RDD hater to the fullest. I'll just leave it at that 
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sokar Rostau
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:08 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
|
|
Sort of on topic...
A couple of weeks ago I was partied with someone new to the server who was playing a Shadow Dragon Disciple as their first character. Given that I've been playing one for about a year I was interested in the character and we discussed a few things about Shadow Dragons and how awesome they are, given that they're the coolest and most awesomest of all cool and awesome dragons ever... Anyway he seemed to be a little over-excited about his wings and it wasn't until he took off his cloak that I found out why. The DM who gave him the Shadow Dragon traits gave him Demon Wings rather than Black Dragon Wings. When I commented that that shouldn't have been the case he told me that the DM did it so there would be no mistaking him for a Black DD. These weren't even the kind of Demon Wiings that Succubi have which would make some sense - these wings were huge.
I mentioned this in-game to a DM and was told it would be raised in the DM forums.
Are Shadow DDs getting different wings by default now or was this simply a mistake?
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nekhy
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:22 AM |
|
|
Player
|
|
No, they should get the default RDD model. Must have been a mistake.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Selvec Darkon
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:31 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
|
|
Any chance of other DC purchases getting revisions? Such as Monkey Grip?
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Signe Johanne
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:31 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
|
o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: Eh... I guess it's a good thing since a skin change is the same price and all. I just wish it was harder for people to get them. I hate seeing so many people with wings. It's just... eh... I'm a RDD hater to the fullest. I'll just leave it at that
RDDs get their wings for free at 9th lvl, iirc. Nothing much to do about that, although I'd like to...  I'm not really hating on RDDs, though. I just don't like the heavy numbers we've got on our tiny little island.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:37 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
Nekhy wrote: No, they should get the default RDD model. Must have been a mistake.
Disco's RDD colorizer gives Shadow Dragons the Black Demon Wings: Saris and every other Shadow dragon has them.
Understandabnly no Shadow Dragon has ever bothered to mention it. 
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:38 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
Selvec Darkon wrote: Any chance of other DC purchases getting revisions? Such as Monkey Grip?
It takes a skin change so it firmly sits at 25.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sokar Rostau
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:56 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
|
|
I just checked my Shadow DD and she has the same wings as a Succubus, which makes sense... the character I'm talking about had something very different - large and of a different shape.
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 9:57 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
|
Yes, it's the same wings, simply a different color and texture. i know the wings you're talking about. They're labeled as "Dragon Wings, Black 2" but are modelled like the Demon Wings.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
HellScourge
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 11:31 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
|
TormakSaber wrote: I don't, simply because the idea of "hunting for DCs" nags me on a principle level!
Hunting for DC's...
Just how do I need to imagine that?
"Hey! YOU! Yes, you there, RP with me and slap me with your DC rod!" ? _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Delarwyn
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 12:00 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
|
So, can I have my fey wings done? I had it approved, but I have only 43 DCs. 
I can past here the PM with the approval.
Quote: o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:
Eh... I guess it's a good thing since a skin change is the same price and all. I just wish it was harder for people to get them. I hate seeing so many people with wings. It's just... eh... I'm a RDD hater to the fullest. I'll just leave it at that Confused
You get wings with RDD lvl 10, you just need the widget. They are free. We pay for all the other wings. _________________ 
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Galenson
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 13:24 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
|
|
Actually it's level 9 RDD you get the wings. Level 10 is just the dragon bonuses.
Even though the price has dropped, the real question remains: Do you want to join the Amian norm by playing a freak character?
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Delarwyn
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 13:38 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
|
|
Well, I play three freak characters already. I love them to the bits. So, yeah!!!!!!!!!!
and yes, lvl 9. It has being a while I made Elrid. I don't even remember.
_________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shrewd
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 13:39 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
|
|
*Cries about those extra 25 DCs.*
Any chance the people who paid 50 DCs for wings can be refunded 25?
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Galenson
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 13:41 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
|
Its your fault for being and old fart and buying early. 
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ziacat
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 14:40 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Finland GMT +2 (+3 in summer)
|
Marauth wrote: *Cries about those extra 25 DCs.*
Any chance the people who paid 50 DCs for wings can be refunded 25?
No. _________________ 
|
|
|
|
|
|
drahgon
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 20:43 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
|
Marauth wrote: *Cries about those extra 25 DCs.*
Any chance the people who paid 50 DCs for wings can be refunded 25?
some of us new folk have never even seen 25 DC let alone 50
_________________
Keelah Se'lai
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Sat, Jun 13 2009, 21:41 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
Marauth wrote: *Cries about those extra 25 DCs.*
Any chance the people who paid 50 DCs for wings can be refunded 25?
I'd just like to tell the DM team I called this happening... *cough*.
No refunds.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shrewd
|
Posted: Sun, Jun 14 2009, 3:53 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
|
|
Are tails reduced also?
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Sun, Jun 14 2009, 3:56 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Marauth wrote: Are tails reduced also?
They're discussing it
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
Uncle-Opustus
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 13:40 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
|
|
I've always wanted a character with wings, so I could burn it and pity myself afterwards.
_________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 13:46 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
|
Ziacat wrote: No. TormakSaber wrote: No refunds.
The obvious question is uh, why? Deflation?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 13:50 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Jan wrote: Ziacat wrote: No. TormakSaber wrote: No refunds. The obvious question is uh, why? Deflation? Why should you be refunded? If you bought something and it came down in price later, that doesn't mean that you deserve your money back.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nekhy
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 14:06 PM |
|
|
Player
|
|
Yup. If the price of something goes down, it doesn't mean everyone who bought their stuff earlier get some of the money back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 14:23 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
|
|
Still doesn't answer the question. I'm not even gonna bother argue it, I just want to know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 14:32 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
If the question is, "Why are there no refunds?", it's phrased wrong. The question should be "Why should there be refunds?"
We don't give DCs "for free." That's why you will not suddenly receive 25 DCs. A refund implies that you have some special right to get 25 extra DCs with the excuse that you're getting them back for something you already used them for in the past.
We don't give wing-owners 25 DCs, because we don't give anyone else 25 DCs either.
Now, you could argue that you have the right to get a refund. And I think the above posts counter that very well: you got what you paid for. It might bum you to see that weeks later, other people get it cheaper, but that's life. (Mind that we haven't sold any new wings in months, IIRC; it might have been reconsidered if someone had just bought them a week before the decision.) I bought a sweater for 30€ last December, and they're now selling it for 5€. I didn't really need that sweater in the meantime, but I still didn't get 25€ back as a refund. I also rebuilt Kalliniel weeks before the rebuild costs were drastically lowered, and I didn't even play that version of him for more than a few times. I didn't get refunded.
Because that's not how buying and selling works.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dev Disco
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 14:48 PM |
|
|
HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
|
|
Besides, everybody knows we're a bunch of mean misers.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gondor
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 14:54 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: Belgium
|
Dev Disco wrote: Besides, everybody knows we're a bunch of mean misers.
You god damnit lowered the price with 25 DC! How dare you.  _________________ "Unite with the essence of your blade, forge your mind and make it strong, for a blade breaks as fast as it's wielder."
Lo'milmar Cil'in, the Path of Athiyk'VElve
|
|
|
|
|
|
hendrack
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 15:09 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
|
|
Thats like asking if you retire a char and you want your burned DCs back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gondor
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 15:11 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: Belgium
|
|
Aye. Why not?
_________________ "Unite with the essence of your blade, forge your mind and make it strong, for a blade breaks as fast as it's wielder."
Lo'milmar Cil'in, the Path of Athiyk'VElve
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ts_
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 15:22 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
|
hendrack wrote: Thats like asking if you retire a char and you want your burned DCs back.
That's really no argument at all as that would be a very valid model. Another model would be that you collect and spend DCs for each chars indivdually. Or that you collect DCs on all chars together, but could spend them once for each char and they are really pretty sparkles for you whenever you are logged in. Or that DCs expire after 3 months. Or whatnot.
However, the DCs are given out under the assumption that they have the specific value the system gives them right now.*
Regards, Ts
*) Actually, most likely drugs and intimate favors are more important.
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gunz
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 15:29 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
|
|
You can't buy the latest HDTV from Best Buy and then 5 months later, after using it day in and day out, take it back and expect your money back. You bought it. Enjoy. Or don't. But don't expect to get your money back.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zante
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 15:41 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
|
Galenson wrote: Do you want to join the Amian norm by playing a freak character?
Hell yea, the more the better I say. Everyone should be able to make a special char, the new price makes wings much more realistic to get for a lot of people. 
*starts saving up and thinking of a story* _________________ 
|
|
|
|
|
|
BrainSplitter
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:04 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
|
|
Keep in mind, we're keeping a rather extreme standard for their request; that being. "Bloody Good".We're not interested in making the Horde of Winged Freaks issue any worse.
_________________
Mostly Retired
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gunz
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:13 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
|
WonWon wrote: Keep in mind, we're keeping a rather extreme standard for their request; that being. "Bloody Good".We're not interested in making the Horde of Winged Freaks issue any worse.
<3
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:18 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
|
o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: You can't buy the latest HDTV from Best Buy and then 5 months later, after using it day in and day out, take it back and expect your money back..
You know, I don't mind having the motivation behind the decision explained to me, but these comparisons with real life shopping are completely moot. There is absolutely no connection between that and a few minutes of LETO'ing a character file, unless you force it upon yourself.
Compare to the case of the first fairy shifter widget, which was actually a DC request. Then everyone else got it for free. Should the initial player have been refunded?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gunz
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:30 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
|
|
No. I don't think so anyway. Things have to be able to progress without having to back track to make everyone happy. Prices rise and fall in real life too. It sucks, but that's life.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:33 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
What's being bought and sold, how much work it takes and whether there's any profit involved are irrelevant to the core point that makes the comparison valid: you made a deal, and its terms don't change retrospectively even if it no longer seems as alluring as it did when it was made. You paid for your wings or your sweaters, you got to own them when no others could get them cheaper, and you get to keep them in the future, too. The deal the player made with the DM team was to buy a pair of wings for 50 DCs; any other factors that might change are irrelevant.
As for the fairy widget example: I'm not familiar with the case myself, so I can't say what was done, if anything. It would seem decent to offer a refund, because it was essentially a private DC request and it's always lame to have your idea stolen. Such a small-scale refund could be done, because it's the nice thing to do, but not because the player would be "entitled" to a refund.
The rationale of not refunding old wings can be summed up with "Why should we?" That, and we haven't refunded anything else either. (Skin changes, rebuilds, levels bought during lower profit times etc.) Either we draw an arbitrary line that will be unfair to some and favourable to others and that will be debated back and forth, or we have a clear and simple ruling.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dev Disco
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:37 PM |
|
|
HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
|
|
Well, imagine what you'd think if we charge you for stuff you already bought if the prices are ever raised again?
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:42 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
|
|
Yeah. Points made. Consider my question sufficiently answered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nekhy
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 16:54 PM |
|
|
Player
|
Dev Disco wrote: Well, imagine what you'd think if we charge you for stuff you already bought if the prices are ever raised again?
That'd be only fair, if we refunded when we lower prices. I bet it'd be an outrage, though. "Everyone pays the same price" is considered reasonable and fair only to a degree, when one benefits from it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Xaviera
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 18:25 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
|
I want all those DCs back from when I bought 8 levels at 10 DC per level!
Even if it was 3 years ago.
Just kidding. _________________  ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
|
|
|
|
|
|
ticket
|
Posted: Tue, Jun 16 2009, 23:51 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
|
Xaviera wrote: I want all those DCs back from when I bought 8 levels at 10 DC per level!
:O
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Wed, Jun 17 2009, 3:18 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
Xaviera wrote: I want all those DCs back from when I bought 8 levels at 10 DC per level! Even if it was 3 years ago. Just kidding. In MY day they got you a flat 250 XP OR 1000 GP. Be thankful it was only 10 a level!
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
FA_Frey_XC
|
Posted: Wed, Jun 17 2009, 3:38 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
|
I think this is awesome.
Thanks, DM's for trying to keep things real.
Regards, _________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
|
|
|
|
|
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 61 guests |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Login
