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[ 25 posts ] |
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Sokar Rostau
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 Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 8:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Australia
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I've been playing NWN for a few years now, and NWN2 for about 7 months, and there is something that has really annoyed me from the beginning.
I have yet to come across a single SP module that takes a PC from level 1 to level 40. The vast majority of all modules, including the official ones (with the notable exception of Infinite Dungeons) all fall into one of two categories - low level modules that end somewhere below ~lvl 12 or a mod that starts the character at a given level and finishes once the PC has gained 5-10 levels.
Now, the obvious reason for this is that making a module, even a bad one, takes time, effort, and some modicum of skill with the Toolset. But that's a poor excuse for two reasons:
1. While it can be played that way, at it's core the NWN franchise has never been a pure Hack 'n' Slash game, like Diablo II for example. Doing Quests has always been a part of it and Quests usually come with Quest Rewards which can easily be large chunks of XP. Vanilla NWN2 OC enables a non-ECL Race to reach level 20 before the final Boss fight by giving a number of these XP chunks for completing Quests. In fact, even Diabloo II has Quests that grant either a level or a large amount of XP for completing them... so why can't SP builders do the same?
2. Persistent Worlds. There are hundreds of PWs, catering to all tastes, to choose from on GameSpy and almost all of them enable a PC to get to max level. With some careful thought and planning, along with a large dose of balancing, Amia could easily enable characters to reach level 40 (don't harp on this, it's an example, not the point) with minimal changes to what is already in the module. There's clearly hundreds of people out there with the know-how to make a PW world that takes a PC from 1-40, and yet there's no SP-specific modules available (there ARE a few PWs available on the Vault for download, Nordock probably being the most well known, but these are intended for others to modify and host as PWs for themselves).
You can't tell me that there's a lack of the requisite creativity in the NWN community either. So what is it? Why are there no 1-40, or 1-30 in the case of NWN2, SP modules available?
_________________
"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 8:39 AM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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PWs are cheap and easy, SP modules take more effort.
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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hendrack
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 8:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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SP modules for NWN are easy peasy. You take a whole team of developers and give them lots of money. Oh wait, thats the OC and HotU.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 9:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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If you add SoU and HotU it's pretty much continuous (a chain of SP campaigns). I'd imagine the problem is designing a campaign where you can level to 40 while the campaign remains interesting (and not 'go there, fetch that, finish chapter with boss fight' a la OC).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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xordae
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 9:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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It's easy enough to condense a lvl 1-40 journey into a SP module. You can just raise the XP rate, right? Actually, I hate these low XP rates in most of the modules. Starting at level 1-3 is how it should be, but characters really start getting more interesting ability-wise once you hit the 20.
Although.. the higher the character level, the bigger the differences between a powerbuild and a weak build.
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 10:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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I once played a module that was catered to just that.
It was like a PW, just without other players. Random quests, random loot drops, high or low magical word, etc. All decided randomly upon starting the module.
I forgot the name though. *Shrug* It was fun though, especially since you didn't have to powerbuild to be good at the later levels.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 10:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Noone enjoys designing SP modules for high level characters is why.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 10:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Galenson wrote: Noone enjoys designing SP modules for high level characters is why.
I think it's this. Beyond level 30, NWN1 characters become a clusterfuck, power wise. The easiest way around this is to simply declare what your module is for. "You should create a level 30 melee character for this module". etc.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 11:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Imagine the difference in survivability of a standard build and something like a Ruce-build (it's a compliment!) at level 40: a balanced encounter for the former would be boring for the latter while one for the latter would probably kill a party of the former.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 12:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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The bioware camp's are a lot of hours of work. Now add in they are extremely linear, and not really balanced. Which is more work for a module maker. Then add in having to put in balanced monsters, varied and interesting landscapes, and believeable NPC's, with an epic storyline. Most people by this stage would be asking Atari to pay them to make a new game.
The amount of work needed to create an interesting campign that goes from level 1 to 40 would silly. Not worth it. That's likely why no good campign exists.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 13:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yep. My only regret is that the Paladin Trilogy never got finished because the creator got hired by Bioware. Now THAT was a fine, fine campaign. I'll always be partial to Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher/Demon too, even if the campaign really shows its age, these days.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 13:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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WonWon made this extremely relevant point about high level characters and DMing: he'll spend ages setting up a DM event only for the level 30 boss farming person to completely ignore him and just kill the mob he had set up for his event. The same can be applied for Single player module designers.
The higher the character level the more hack and slash they'll be. The reason being that a level 23 character with the right gear and smarts can stand toe-to-toe with a level 30+ so they're more likely to just throw a swing and keep going. For a level 4 character, they don't have the same luxury when the level 6 barbarian's taunting him, that extra attack and 24 hit points make a huge difference.
Now expanding on the above point, the level 4 character's probably not going to be able to kill the level 6 barbarian one on one so the designer has to be creative and add several options on how to succeed. It could be a bribe, challenge him to a drinking contest or scaring him with freaky deaky magic. As you can already tell, it's already more fun for the player and more fun for the designer.
Not to mention for Single Player Modules you can't edit .2da files or include plugins (like Leto) unless you make it require a hak... it's not as easy to customise as PW modules. If you go to all that effort to make a fantastic SP module but the people who play it just ignore it and hack and slash through everything as a god level 40 PC... you'll be a very dissapointed designer.
Which is why I think noone designs SP modules for high level characters. it's not fun because there's no point being creative.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Also I think that one module that goes from 1-40 will be very large module indeed. Look at BG series you can get to 40 in that game I beleive. But it was released over several years on discs not directly to drive. There is a like 5-6GB (maybe) if you combine all the BG series together.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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BG II only went up to level 24 or something, it was different and scaled for every class.
For example Paladins and monks could only get to 21 whilst a fighter or rogue could get to 28.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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GreatPigeon wrote: Also I think that one module that goes from 1-40 will be very large module indeed. Look at BG series you can get to 40 in that game I beleive. But it was released over several years on discs not directly to drive. There is a like 5-6GB (maybe) if you combine all the BG series together.
That's also including the engine, textres and everything ... not all of that is the module.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Gallenson: The expansion pack Throne of Bhaal though. They just poured xp on you constantly for little things, and one fight could easily get you over 1k xp.
Yurrel: Good Point
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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GreatPigeon wrote: Gallenson: The expansion pack Throne of Bhaal though. They just poured xp on you constantly for little things, and one fight could easily get you over 1k xp.
Yurrel: Good Point
Add the Ascension mod. Then see how 'little' some of those fights are :P
Also add the chat pack - it's simply a must. Convos come more often and they've added a lot.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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That chat pack was voted number 6 in PC PowerPlay's 10 most pointless mods ever created 
I just read that like 5 minutes ago.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 15:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Never heard of those Yurrel, its been a while since I played BG2, I didnt have any idea how to build characters then, I think i played with a level 38 fighter or some crap. Didnt have internet, if I ever come beat this addiction called Amia, maybe I will rerun it.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 16:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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GreatPigeon wrote: Gallenson: The expansion pack Throne of Bhaal though. They just poured xp on you constantly for little things, and one fight could easily get you over 1k xp.
Ring of Invisibility+ Druid + Nymph's beauty + 20 enemies = 5k xp
Just leaving and reentering the area brought them all back, you could do it three times in succession and then just rest.
Also, the limit of bg 2 was raised to 40 with the expansion pack I think. _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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Selmak
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 17:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Modules can be linked. That's what they did with the NWN campaigns. Works.
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Neus Scario
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Posted: Sat, Jun 20 2009, 23:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky
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TormakSaber wrote: Yep. My only regret is that the Paladin Trilogy never got finished because the creator got hired by Bioware. Now THAT was a fine, fine campaign. I'll always be partial to Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher/Demon too, even if the campaign really shows its age, these days.
Absolutely. Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher/Demon are easily the finest single player modules you can find completed in its entirety. It's a shame that the HeX coda never got finished.
_________________
Characters:
Yurioji Azzara
Seto
PM me if you need something with them.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Jun 21 2009, 1:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Galenson wrote: That chat pack was voted number 6 in PC PowerPlay's 10 most pointless mods ever created :P
I just read that like 5 minutes ago.
I twas an awesome mod for the RP! Gave the characters more flavour.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Halecta
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Posted: Sun, Jun 21 2009, 7:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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Sure you can have level 40 PCs but you can also have level 120 NPCs
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sun, Jun 21 2009, 7:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Or you just Leto your char to godlike mode on level 1 already. Pff.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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