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I've been searching high and low for information about dead powers but managed to find only a couple basic facts. What I want to know is how a deity being dead affects his/her worshippers. Any D&D buffs here who know something more about this?

Xiru wrote:

I've been searching high and low for information about dead powers but managed to find only a couple basic facts. What I want to know is how a deity being dead affects his/her worshippers. Any D&D buffs here who know something more about this?

They lose their divine powers, unless the god that replaces them is happy to fill in.

First Tyr is alive, we do not use 4th edition lore which means all the gods that wizards of the coast stupidly killed off are still alive. Second a lot of the domians were taken over by others. For example, praying to Moander, you will have spells but they will be given to you by Lolth even if you do not know it. similar story for most if not all the dead gods.

herkles wrote:

First Tyr is alive, we do not use 4th edition lore which means all the gods that wizards of the coast stupidly killed off are still alive. Second a lot of the domians were taken over by others. For example, praying to Moander, you will have spells but they will be given to you by Lolth even if you do not know it. similar story for most if not all the dead gods.

Sometimes the gods were replaced, e.g. Myrkuul by Kelemvor, Bhaal by Cyric and it was made known.

herkles wrote:

First Tyr is alive (...)

Yeah, I actually compared the dates after I posted and found out his death took place after the events of NWN. Sorry 'bout that.

Some dead gods death aren't actually well known in some regions and other gods have pretended to be them to steal their worshipers. That's mostly with evil deities though. For example: Shar steals Ibrandul's worship, Lolth steals Moander's worship, Cyric steals some of Bhaal's worship, etc.

Just because someone took the portfolios after a certain gods death doesn't mean that deity is taking their worshipers. For example, I really down Kelemvor stole Myrkuul's worshipers by masking himself as Myrkuul. What he did do is let them join his clergy, as long as they changed their ways to his over a certain amount of time.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Cyric steals some of Bhaal's worship, etc.

Actually, that doesn't happen. After Bhaal was killed, his worshippers soon began to worship the entity called Bhaal-Cyric. After a while, Cyric demanded to be known only as Cyric, and wouldn't allow any Bhaalyn (or Bhaalites, depends which side of Thay you're from) access to the divine powers.

herkles wrote:

First Tyr is alive, we do not use 4th edition lore which means all the gods that wizards of the coast stupidly killed off are still alive. Second a lot of the domians were taken over by others. For example, praying to Moander, you will have spells but they will be given to you by Lolth even if you do not know it. similar story for most if not all the dead gods.

No, if you pray to Moander, your spells are granted by Finder Wyvernspur, whose portfolio he claimed when tymora invested her power within Finder, allowing him to slay Moander.

Yurell wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Cyric steals some of Bhaal's worship, etc.

Actually, that doesn't happen. After Bhaal was killed, his worshippers soon began to worship the entity called Bhaal-Cyric. After a while, Cyric demanded to be known only as Cyric, and wouldn't allow any Bhaalyn (or Bhaalites, depends which side of Thay you're from) access to the divine powers.

But the point is, it -did- happen. I should have worded it better, but they're all examples of worship stealing that have happened or continue to happen.

TormakSaber wrote:

herkles wrote:

First Tyr is alive, we do not use 4th edition lore which means all the gods that wizards of the coast stupidly killed off are still alive. Second a lot of the domians were taken over by others. For example, praying to Moander, you will have spells but they will be given to you by Lolth even if you do not know it. similar story for most if not all the dead gods.

No, if you pray to Moander, your spells are granted by Finder Wyvernspur, whose portfolio he claimed when tymora invested her power within Finder, allowing him to slay Moander.

Actually, Finder doesn't have Moander's portfolio and Lolth does steal his worship.

There is a feat called Servant of the Fallen (LEoF, pg 9) which allows a cleric to gain divine spells from a dead or forgotten deity as if the patron was active. It means your devotion to the principles, symbols and dogma of the dead deity keep the faith alive. This is not quite like gaining power from ideas as in Greyhawk, but rather than the death and decay of a god takes a long time and there is still divine spark in their corpes floating about the Astral.

Of course, such servants of the fallen would be rare, and it's not an option many would know about or make consciously.

LEoF lists the major dead/forgotten gods:
Amaunator (Some Netherese descendants might worship him.)
Auppenser (who still has a handful of devoted worshipers, probably psionics who descdend from Jhaamdath.)
Bhaal (Well, there's the Bhaalspawn, so their minions might worship him.)
Gilgeam (who might still be revered by some Untheric traditionalists.)
Ibrandul (whom Shar masquaraded for a time)
Leira (is an unlikely choice, never having had many devoted worshipers.)
Moander (who was slain and whose divine power was absorbed by Finder, but apparently Lolth also took his portfolio and uses it to gain worshipers among surfacers. Tormak and GuNz are both correct. This is a strange one. Maybe because they're of different pantheons?)
Myrkul (I would assume he still has some cultists who hate Kelemvor.)
Ramman (was killed by Hoar during the ToT, and probably doesn't have much followers.)
Tchazzar (was devoured by Tiamat, but still revered by Chessentas as the legendary hero he appeared to be, while in truth he was a red dragon.)

Most of those choices seem gimmicky and senseless in 95% of cases. There's little benefit to worshiping a dead god over an active one, apart from not having a restrictive church to command you and challenge your authority. As far as I can interpret the specifics, you still end up in the Wall. But then, that's not something these devoted few would know or believe, considering they still have enough faith in their dead god to give them divine spells. Auppenser is probably the most likely choice, particularly for psionics who're very familiar with Jhaamdath's history.

And while it doesn't exactly say so in the rules, I think it's safer you write a request for any actual clerics of dead gods. Well, barring those who're masquaraded by others and you just think you worship them. But I'd request anything that involves the Servant of the Fallen feat, just to be on the safe side.

Most, -Smart- gods find a way to come back eventually anyway.

( I said smart, not stupid.)

SaberCrazy wrote:

Most, -Smart- gods find a way to come back eventually anyway.

( I said smart, not stupid.)

How many times has Bane come back already?

I read somewhere that Tchazzar (was devoured by Tiamat, but still revered by Chessentas as the legendary hero he appeared to be, while in truth he was a red dragon.) came back to life, as Tiamats champion, and also a demi-god.

Okay, I think I understand the gist of it. Thanks for all the info, everyone.

Quote:

Actually, Finder doesn't have Moander's portfolio and Lolth does steal his worship.

You sure? Lat I checked Finder's portfolios included "decay, and the cycle of life" or suchlike, which wer eMoander's portfolios.. and Finder did kill him.

Those that still worship Amaunator actually get their spells from Lathander. It even says so in the LEoF. It's even an offshoot of the Church of Lathander.

Well, it's said that Finder killed Moander and absorbed his divine power. He has Moander's portfolio, indeed.

But it's also said that Lolth took his portfolio and masquarades as Moander to gain worshipers among elves, half-elves and other surfacers who will identify with a god of rotten nature more easily than the Spider Queen.

However, Lolth evidently does not have rot or decay among her portfolios. So I think there's a mistake in the phrasing regarding Lolth. (To be found in Demihuman Deities, among other places.)

Based on Moander's entry in Faiths and Avatars, Lolth's entry in Demihuman Deities and Finder's entry in Powers and Pantheons, it seems that Finder has Moander's portfolio and power, but he does not masquarade the evil god or embrace his portfolio fully, instead having transformed decay into the cycle from rot to rebirth. Lolth, on the other hand, does not have Moander's actual portfolio or power, but she uses Moander as an alias to gain more non-Drow worshipers.

That's because Aumanator *is* Lathander.

Yazkir wrote:

Those that still worship Amaunator actually get their spells from Lathander. It even says so in the LEoF. It's even an offshoot of the Church of Lathander.

Where does it say so, exactly? Lathander isn't actually Amaunator for sure, at least in the Realms before 4e, but it's been theorized. On page 41, there's clear IC speculation about Amaunator being dead, reborn as Lathander or surviving in a Bedine deity. Nothing definitive is said. It's true that the Risen Sun heresy gain their spells from Lathander, but I don't think that's the same as the Servant of the Fallen feat.

I think it's wrong to say that they're one and the same. They may be of the same divine power, their portfolios may be intertwined, Lathander may have absorbed Amaunator's aspect, but I wouldn't say they're consciously or physically the same being. If anything, I reckon Lathander fears the presence of Amaunator inside him but he might not be completely conscious of the effect Amaunator's remains have on him. Hells, if we're going this far in speculation, you might even suppose Lathander isn't aware of the Risen Sun Heresy, because it is Amaunator's mostly-dormant consciousness fooling him to pave the way for a new reign.

Even individual aspects of the same guard are mostly independent and seperate, like the Earthmother is completely different from Chauntea. I don't want to say anything too definite about the gods and their relations, because that sort of kills the mystery.

After doing reading I came to realize that most of the 4e deity "mergings" are so heavily foreshadowed that it's impossible for them to have not been thought of and put into place pre 4e.

Anyways, and I suppose this will be an unpopular opinion: The deity restructuring in that case is a bit of lore that needs to be retroactively true. If Aumanator is Lathander is Aumanator, then he always HAS been Lathander/Aumanator, which makes them the same guy in 3.5e Relams too. This is something no PC will ever learn of course, but it's interesting on a cosmological level.

There's even a 4e Destiny Path called Dawnsinger (iirc). the basics of it are thta "you represent the youthful path of your aged, stern god, and rejoice in the youth he once had." It's a way for Aumantor worshippers in 4e to retain their Lathanderan flavor. I'm not exactly sure WHY Lathander returns to his Aumanator incarnation, but everything points to them being the same guy.

At best they're the same guy, at worst they're two halves of the same coin which really means the same thing.

I thought that Finder killed Moander by stabbing him with a dagger tipped with a shard of Para-elemental ice in Moander's home plane.

I agree that it's been hinted at a lot, especially recently. I like to think there's some mystical connection, but I don't think it could've been as straightforward as it's made out to be in 4e. "Oh, they're the same thing" reduces the mystery of it, IMO. Lathander probably didn't consciously want to become Amaunator, because that makes no sense. But perhaps Amaunator overwhelmed Lathander, and as a god of new beginnings he was blind to the dangerous Heresy of the Risen Sun, or incapable of stopping it as that would be acting against his portfolio.

Portfolio and worshipers affect a deity, and I can certainly imagine dual personality issues with someone who has such conflicting followers and motives. Lathander could have been born of Amaunator, or he could have absorbed Amaunator, who later bursts out of Lathander like Bane from Xvim, but they surely had different personalities and consciousness, because they had different followers and portfolios.

I think there's evidence of Lathander and Amaunator being worshiped simultaneously in seperate parts of the world, too, though I can't be certain.

The Dawn Cataclysm apparently involved Lathander trying to shape the pantheon anew in his image, but it's never been explained any further, and no date has been given. Maybe that's a point during which the two gods merged. Or something strange happened and rippled back and forth in time. Don't ask me what that could've been, though.

All in all, I'm just talking out of my butt and speculating things that are way past what books tell. I wish WotC preferred myths over stats, when it came to gods. Aarggh, I just don't want to know too much!

TheUltimateSin wrote:

I thought that Finder killed Moander by stabbing him with a dagger tipped with a shard of Para-elemental ice in Moander's home plane.

I have no idea. It doesn't say in F&A, as far as I could see, and I haven't read the novels that discuss the events. (I think there are novels about it, at least. Finder's Stone trilogy?) It's just supposed that Tymora aided Finder somehow, because otherwise scholars are confused as to how a mortal could have killed a god.

Yes, Finder did kill Moander. I guess that is kinda true though, it seems Finder changed the wording for rotting death and decay and made it "cycles of life". One thing he didn't seem to take was his portfolio of corruption though.

And I agree that the Lathander/Amaunator merge was done really well and seemed to be planned from the start. Ever since Amaunator died and Lathander came to be, there have bee people who switched to Lathanders faith believing that he was the reincarnation of Amaunator. I kinda like that he went back to being Amaunator, personally, but I do wish he would have kept some of Lathanders portfolios to give him some more flavor.

I have to disagree that the Earthmother is that far off from Chauntea. Earthmother is pretty much old Chauntea, back before she gave up the wilds to Silvanus. Chauntea loves nature and loves people, I think it fits perfectly.

IronAngel wrote:

The Dawn Cataclysm apparently involved Lathander trying to shape the pantheon anew in his image, but it's never been explained any further, and no date has been given. Maybe that's a point during which the two gods merged. Or something strange happened and rippled back and forth in time. Don't ask me what that could've been, though.

I want Yossarin to attack this with his bogus lore on how deities become their true name and how they exist in all times simultaneously. *Cheers him on.*

Kjetta wrote:

I want Yossarin to attack this with his bogus lore on how deities become their true name and how they exist in all times simultaneously. *Cheers him on.*

It's Clobberin' Time !

IronAngel wrote:

TheUltimateSin wrote:

I thought that Finder killed Moander by stabbing him with a dagger tipped with a shard of Para-elemental ice in Moander's home plane.

I have no idea. It doesn't say in F&A, as far as I could see, and I haven't read the novels that discuss the events. (I think there are novels about it, at least. Finder's Stone trilogy?) It's just supposed that Tymora aided Finder somehow, because otherwise scholars are confused as to how a mortal could have killed a god.

Its been a long time since I read them but if I remember correctly Finder wasn't necessarily a mortal when it happened having been banished to a Demi-plane by the harpers. He is as old as Elminster and as knowledgeable having been sustained through all the years by his living so close to a plane (I can't remember which) and having been able to observe the goings on of the prime plane in his prison.

Alias, Olive Ruskettle, Akbar bel-Akash, and the saurial Dragonbait helped destroy Moander's body and all of his worshippers in the prime plane. Then Finder travelled through to Moander's home plane, Gehenna, I think, where he broke open the Finder's stone and removed the ice shard and stabbed Moander's real body, already weakened by his defeat and the loss of his worshippers. I f anybody has read the Finders Stone trilogy mor recently than I have and can add to that then please do.

Eeep! *covers eyes from spoilers* I guess I'll see if I can find that trilogy anywhere.

I don't think the final conclusion of the Lathander/Amaunator deal was very well done, honestly. There was mystery, conflict, and a chance for many kinds of outcomes in home campaigns while things were unclear. And then, years of rumours and speculation were solved in one giant time leap, saying "Oh yeah, Lathander just became Amaunator again." It's not very interesting, mysterious or dramatic.

As for the Earthmother, well, she wasn't even Chauntea to begin with. That, too, is a retcon. Earthmother and Kazgoroth have a different role and personality on the Moonshae than Chauntea and Malar have elsewhere, and the local aspect's power is tied into the land and its Moonwells, as far as I know. I think deities with several aliases or different interpretations of their dogma always suffer some kind of multiple personality disorder, because it's their portfolio and followers that determine their personality and nature (as explained in Power of Faerûn).

I have no problem cherry picking aspects re: merged/not merge (Talos/Gruumsh and Selune/Sehaine Moonbow, i'm looking at you guys), but I guess after running the Ne'sek plot like I did, I really like the Lathander/Amaunator thing because it's interesting on a cosmologgical level. I posted some stuff on the Ne'sek topic in the DM forums about it, not sure if you saw it, Iron.

I did, yeah, and it has its merits. I just think the final conclusion in 4e was anti-climatic. There was no cosmological clash of the two personalities that tore apart the clergy, there wasn't even much mystery or drama involved. Boring!

Oh, yeah, I agree there. The 3.5 -> 4e transition was poorly done at best because we lost alot of plots that were in the making in Realmspace and lost even more by missing out on the transition. We didn't get any 'Realms shattering' events with the re-rise of the Netherese Empire, for example, or anything around why Elminster is in hiding or what happened to him, or the fall of the Thayan Empire and their degeneration into glorified merchants.

the history section of Forgotten Realms Wiki is pretty accurate, just wanted to point that out so we can hopefully clear a few things up.
not to spoil anyone's fun of course.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:History[/url]

Well, it's generally better to do original research or at least double-check the information from the books yourself. At least that's what I do, so I won't talk about something I have no idea about. I don't actually know much about the Realms off the top of my head, I just have a good idea of where to look things up.

I wouldnt begin to know where to search for this stuff, I dont own the books. And I dont really have much lore stored up in my brain.

Well, topics like these, with people who mention the sources of their information, are the second best thing.

If a god kills one of the other ones, do his followers kill each other as well?

Last edited by IronAngel on Tue, Jun 23 2009, 21:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I guess it's up to them?

Generally, though, it doesn't seem like followers are very knowledgeable or even interested in the relationships of the gods. All gods are divine and to be respected, even if out of fear than anything else, but most other faiths are competition to be hampered. Of course civilized churches will work together and pat eachother on the back, like nations in the real world, but I guess a desire for greater influence haunts in the back of every cleric's head.

Ah, figured it would be you killed my God! you bastard *stab stab*

Meh, I edited again.

Might be so for some people. It depends on what you're like. But then, divine business is divine business. The rivalries and alliances of deities aren't immediately reflected among mortal followers. And more importantly, a follower of Ilmater isn't going to piss on Bane's idol just because the gods are enemies, because Bane is still a god. What's between the gods stays between the gods, and mortals have their own problems with eachother. (Which I guess might suggest that the churches of warring deities would go to war, too; but certainly not against the patron deities of the opposing church, if even that was possible.)

If your patron was just destroyed, I doubt you'd be eager to start any trouble with the new biggest kid on the block. If you're an opportunist, you'll instead join the church who just got a bit more powerful. But eh, your guess is as good as mine, when it comes to individuals. Every character will obviously react in a unique way according to his personality and situation.

and then there are the priests of Myrkuul who just cant believe that the god of death can die so carry on as normal but deep down have developed a huge ulcer as they try and ignore the fact that theyre lord is dead!

IronAngel wrote:

I did, yeah, and it has its merits. I just think the final conclusion in 4e was anti-climatic. There was no cosmological clash of the two personalities that tore apart the clergy, there wasn't even much mystery or drama involved. Boring!

That was the case with all the deities they ruined or merged. That's Wizards for you... half assing everything lately. The only thing that got even a little tiny bit of love were the deaths of Eilistraee and Vhaeuran. But even that lacked.

Is there any reason given as to why the Chosen of Mystra couldn't anchor the Weave so that it doesn't go completely nuts (e.g. Karsus' Folly) when Midnite died? I mean, although magic went a little wonky in the Time of Troubles it worked alright after the death of Mystra.

Yurell wrote:

Is there any reason given as to why the Chosen of Mystra couldn't anchor the Weave so that it doesn't go completely nuts (e.g. Karsus' Folly) when Midnite died? I mean, although magic went a little wonky in the Time of Troubles it worked alright after the death of Mystra.

Magic settled down after a long while. It's a lot more wild and chaotic than it was when Mystra ruled over it, but it works. It's just a lot harder to control and more dangerous. I don't know of any Chosen of Mystra being able to control it. I doubt they would be able to too.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Is there any reason given as to why the Chosen of Mystra couldn't anchor the Weave so that it doesn't go completely nuts (e.g. Karsus' Folly) when Midnite died? I mean, although magic went a little wonky in the Time of Troubles it worked alright after the death of Mystra.

Magic settled down after a long while. It's a lot more wild and chaotic than it was when Mystra ruled over it, but it works. It's just a lot harder to control and more dangerous. I don't know of any Chosen of Mystra being able to control it. I doubt they would be able to too.

I thought that the Chosen were created as anchors, so that what happened with the death of Mystryl would never be repeated.
Otherwise why didn't the Weave go completely nuts (Fall-of-Netheril Style or Spell-Plague style) when Mystra died?

Yurell wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Is there any reason given as to why the Chosen of Mystra couldn't anchor the Weave so that it doesn't go completely nuts (e.g. Karsus' Folly) when Midnite died? I mean, although magic went a little wonky in the Time of Troubles it worked alright after the death of Mystra.

Magic settled down after a long while. It's a lot more wild and chaotic than it was when Mystra ruled over it, but it works. It's just a lot harder to control and more dangerous. I don't know of any Chosen of Mystra being able to control it. I doubt they would be able to too.

I thought that the Chosen were created as anchors, so that what happened with the death of Mystryl would never be repeated.
Otherwise why didn't the Weave go completely nuts (Fall-of-Netheril Style or Spell-Plague style) when Mystra died?

Actualy, it did go completely nuts. Lot of mages died, lots of dead magic zones, wild magic zone, it was bad. The Chosen aren't exclusive to Mystra, it's said that all deities can have chosen people. Not all of them do though, obviously. So yeah, I really doubt the Chosen was made for that reason.

She's actually right. Iron explained it in a post once. the concept of the Chosen was originally unique to Mystra. After the disaster with Karsus' Folly and the Time of Troubles, the new Mystra invested part of herslelf within several mortals so that in the event of her death, the Weave would never be thrown out of whack and destoryed again causing a second cataclysm. The end result of this actually weakened her, since the mortals were invsted with part of her Divine Spark.

Iron goes on to explain how this makes selecting Chosen rather silly for any god to do that isn't Mystra, generally speaking, since it weakens the deity, and they have no reason to need to do it, like Mystra does.

4e flew in the face of lore by causing the Spellplague upon Midnight's death. The Chosen were created specifically to stop an event like the Spellplague from happening.

Yeah. I guess Midnight-Mystra knew her eventual death was inevitable, too, but Chosen were supposed to work as a safety net until a new Mystra would arise. The fact that no one stepped up to take Mystra's mantle as the guardian of the Weave makes no sense from an IC perspective, it was just a(n in)convenient way of getting rid of a magic deity because, apparently, "it was too complicated." Hells, if the position of goddess of all magic was free for grabs, I bet there'd be a dozen deities and twice as many mortals (or immortals, like Larloch) fighting for the job. Ugh!

Yeah. A lot of this topic is delving into 4th E. Which is something that I know nothing about. I'm not very interested in 4e. I'm sure eventually I will be forced into it but for now I am staying away lol. I can't believe they finally killed Mystra.

They just need to make Elminster the new god of magic lol.

Every time I get the urge to play 4e I stop at the now-linear alignment system and give up. LN => Evil

it linear now? How f=en stupid are they.

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