AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I hate to say this but I get tired of seeing X build is overpowered or this shouldn't be able to happen this way or basicaly this build has slapped me down multiple times and I think something should be done about it.

I hear whining about drow spell resist, and the pale masters ability to avoid crits as well as complaints about shadow dancers and Dev critters.

The next thing you'll hear is complaints about the resists duergar have if it hasn't been complained about allready.

To me it sounds more like a jeliousy factor because your character can't do it. I can't dev crit but I get a warm happy feeling everytime I see it happen. Even if I'm the one on the recieving end of it because that player has accomplished something he/she had planned on for that character. I don't mind Sd'd HiPS spamming me if they are attacking because it is how they developed their character.

If you don't like that other characters can do things yours can't look at rebuilding or making a new character. Let the ones that built their characters the way you are jelious about enjoy what they accomplished without having to defend their builds on the forum.

Some people just like to be able to pwn them all. And when they can't, they whine. Some people whine just as much about how Cordor Roleplay sucks or other stuff like that, too.

I'd say it won't ever go away.. but it doesn't make it any less annoying. X.x

Whining about whining.

I'm having a coffee and requesting a lock as soon as humanly possible.

That's quite normal, in the end. That's how we people are. Greatest species on this planet, etc.?

Personally, he has a point. I see countless calls to nerf other builds, often times because it beat someone in pvp. I have to admit, im partially responsible for beciv's post as I egged him on to actually make it, but it has to be said. I think we should all stop complaining about the strength's of others. So a wizard kicks the ass of a fighter. big whoop, fighter take a wizard with you next time you go out. Wizards need tanks sometimes as well, even at level 30. So you got killed by a devver, again big whoop, dev critters have their weaknesses as well, bring someone who can fight them. In the end, a well rounded party does far better than an individual one trick power build.

Builds are boooooooring!

I think that's all there has to be said, really.

I agree with the OP and Zanth. There's loads of things I hate about classes, but I don't bring it up, usually.

Rock paper scissors, there's always a bigger fish...etc.

Zanthair wrote:

Personally, he has a point. I see countless calls to nerf other builds, often times because it beat someone in pvp. I have to admit, im partially responsible for beciv's post as I egged him on to actually make it, but it has to be said. I think we should all stop complaining about the strength's of others. So a wizard kicks the ass of a fighter. big whoop, fighter take a wizard with you next time you go out. Wizards need tanks sometimes as well, even at level 30. So you got killed by a devver, again big whoop, dev critters have their weaknesses as well, bring someone who can fight them. In the end, a well rounded party does far better than an individual one trick power build.

This.

I was under the immpression that this was a Roll with the Punches server.....

Dev Disco wrote:

Builds are boooooooring!

I think that's all there has to be said, really.

I agree wholeheartedly. When leveling, try to take in to account what your character would do. When I first started Vrok off (he's a barbarian), he saw a really neat set of heavy armor, and just had to have it, so I had him take heavy armor prof instead of a more powerful feat.

Getting all the most powerful abilities is not the same as rolling with the RP.

Dev Disco wrote:

Builds are boooooooring!

I think that's all there has to be said, really.

I agree, sadly, not everyone can be a DM on this server.

I'm getting another coffee.

There will always be powerbuilds. There will always be those who have a greater powerbuild than you.

There will always be counters to your powerbuild, and there is no such thing as an unbeatable powerbuild.

There is however a concept of balance. A concept with keeps the challenges and diversity of the game, while not having too much of a spectrum as far as power of characters or features of classes go.

Amia has achieved a good deal of balance. Probably one of the most balanced RP servers in NWN.

At this stage in development, we're getting nitpicky. The balance changes people whine about and ask for, are small. The big changes have already been made, and if there's anything left, it's mostly just for polish.

Mr Mago wrote:

if there's anything left, it's mostly just for polish.

or can have nothing done to it.

Bravo21 wrote:

This.

I was under the immpression that this was a Roll with the Punches server.....

When you log onto the server and stand in the entryway and actually stop and read the little pillars, it will tell you flat out its a rp lite server.

But then again, this is humanity we are talking about, if there is something to complain about, someone will do that

camthrax wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Builds are boooooooring!

I think that's all there has to be said, really.

I agree, sadly, not everyone can be a DM on this server.

Agreed with camthrax, and that is why you really won't see me kvetching about people who aren't happy being locked into a build they didn't intend. Doesn't mean I always want to allow a rebuild, but I don't hold it against them for wanting it.

Bravo21 wrote:

Zanthair wrote:

Personally, he has a point. I see countless calls to nerf other builds, often times because it beat someone in pvp. I have to admit, im partially responsible for beciv's post as I egged him on to actually make it, but it has to be said. I think we should all stop complaining about the strength's of others. So a wizard kicks the ass of a fighter. big whoop, fighter take a wizard with you next time you go out. Wizards need tanks sometimes as well, even at level 30. So you got killed by a devver, again big whoop, dev critters have their weaknesses as well, bring someone who can fight them. In the end, a well rounded party does far better than an individual one trick power build.

This.

I was under the immpression that this was a Roll with the Punches server.....

This, however Mago ha an excellent point, and likely words it better than I was intending to:

Mr Mago wrote:

There is however a concept of balance. A concept with keeps the challenges and diversity of the game, while not having too much of a spectrum as far as power of characters or features of classes go.

Amia has achieved a good deal of balance. Probably one of the most balanced RP servers in NWN.

At this stage in development, we're getting nitpicky. The balance changes people whine about and ask for, are small. The big changes have already been made, and if there's anything left, it's mostly just for polish.

Balance is important, It's the reason you don't see 90% of the server as one class or one race/

I thought this thread was going to be about something else. Since it's not...

I think this only happens to players of certain Classes, but it's annoying nonetheless. People seem to have a habit of, once they know what your Classes are, pouncing on it and calling you "lame", along with several other niceties. I found this out the hard way the first time I built an RDD... and it was hell when I built an RDD/SD. In both cases people told me I was only taking 4 RDD and, in the case of the RDD/SD that I was going 4RDD/6SD, and that those level splits meant I had lame-arse characters, when the actual builds were 20/10 and 7/10/13.

Just because someone has the RDD PrC does not mean they are only taking 4 levels in it.

Likewise, if someone is an SD it doesn't mean they are stopping at 6.

Not all PMs have 10 PM levels.

Not everyone with a Scimitar is a Dev Critting WM.

If someone has WM levels it doesn't mean they have 7.

Believe it or not, there are Epic Casters out there with no Epic Summons.

Not all Druids are aiming for Dragon Shape.

Just because you saw the Sneak Attack floaty text above your tank doesn't mean they only have 1-2 levels of Rogue.

Being told that you suck and your character is lame because you decided to take a certain Class, or didn't take a certain Feat, is not fun. Isn't this a game? Isn't it meant to be fun? Some people really need to think before they open their mouths.

Meh, in a perfect game you could take whatever class you want, whatever mixture of classes you like, and everyone would be balanced in some respect.

Unfortunatly Bioware decided to ignore half of what makes D&D awesome, and just focused on the fighting, so you get an unbalanced game. It's inevitable people will complain about builds if they feel it's unfair.

What I have noticed however, which you did not mentions, is that most (not all) complaints have a point. Generally a lot of complaints are also about people willing to take all the advantages of a build, but ignore the RP consquences of that build.

It's generallly things such as that, that tend to piss people off and cause complaints. Sure, Roll with the Punches, but also accept the consquences of your choices.

I am going to go have a coffee while the pridegaming thread continues.

MoshingChris wrote:

I am going to go have a coffee while the pridegaming thread continues.

I will join you. And will not accept a negative. :twisted:

Why do we care what other people do?

Yeesh, just have fun and ignore the rolls, how's it affect you directly?

PvP losses build character.

I personally don't care about a character's build. If he's having fun, I let him be as long as he's not being an asshole; in which case it has less to do with the character's build than it's the player itself.

What I do care about is balance in PvP and PvM. That means I look at spells, feats, and abilities from that perspective and thus try to ask for changes in X spell/feat/ability if it's overly powerful. As Mago has already pointed out, the server is already well balanced for the most part BUT, in my opinion, it could use some more polishing - improvement.

What... -precisely- was the constructive purpose of this thread? You're making an ass of yourself by whining about the people that are whining.

Counter-productive much?

If you see a thread entitled "Why I hate Palemasters" and you can sense that they're going to be "whining" about palemasters, which apparently you simply cannot stand... Avoid the thread. There are dozens of others to pick from. Most of them are pretty fun to read.

Can I get some of that coffee?

BlackDahlya wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

I am going to go have a coffee while the pridegaming thread continues.

I will join you. And will not accept a negative. :twisted:

Pour me a cup to *hands him a mug with a large fat cow picking his nose*

On the subject of the thread, we all know what builds are the best for PvP, What are best for PvM, what can solo adn what cant... Its a beautiful balance really.

Certain Classes supply their own buffs, these can solo places the others cant, some can summon, some have all day long AB/AC, Just keep in mind, ya cant always win... a WM has a great chance of winning pvp, if the other say cleric is buffed its a bit different. An SD will win most melee pvp if they really want to, A mage will about always win, they are just to awesome.

Its kinda like all day awesome versus, buffing to godlike abilities.

i'm going to say you're making a big deal out of nothing and act distant and uncaring at the same time

man you're mkaing a mountain out of a mole hill

[picture of moles]

i'm chilling at home sipping grog (the most acidic substance in the world that is still a drink fyi) and watching fat politicians flap their fat herpes covered lips with half truths and whole lies while an atomic bomb goes off in my back yard.

yeah like some classes are like too over-powered and some suck no matter what but i'm just too cool to care that this drink is dissolving my innards.

So the elite cast down thier omnicient benevolence upon the dregs of Amia.

Enjoy your coffee.... If you didn't like the post or have anything constructive to say, why flame them? This is a wanna be RP server, and has for the most part a great community supporting it. However, the continuing lobbying to nerf this class or that class is annoying and detracting from the game itself. If the fact that there will always be those with builds that you don't agree with or are being abused, it can be handled in game rather than creating more work in nerfing a class or feat. If it's the lack of RP viability of those classes, there is a server called Arelith that you will feel much more at home in. I personally don't mind if changes are made, but I will continue to lobby against them if for no other reson that all sides are considered. As well, arbitrailly dismissing anothers concerns about changes or even those flaming others about those changes is juvenile.. .. ..

No flame intended. If that was a flame, I am sure the DMs would have given a warning.

What is a known fact, is that there is no unbeatable powerbuilds. Every build has a counter to it and some of them can even be learned in game.

My drow dragon disciple, for instance, gives classes (well, used to give, since now he is sick and away from Ultrinnan) on battles against mages: what are the most common strategies and what are the many ways around them. The most interesting fact is that he started those classes motivated because he was easily defeated by an elf mage. Later, one of his mage friends helped him figure strategies through duels.

He was also starting classes against SDs. He never fought against one, but he has a 'personal code' that makes him want to eliminate all Vhaeraunites and most Vhaeraunites are, usually, SDs. Therefore, if he wants to defeat them, he better learn how to fight against them. But the classes were only not as effective as he would want because the SD PCs being drow would not, of course, share the secrets and the sure ways to fight against them.

And before anyone starts saying that my (S)DD is a powerbuild, I will admit that he was made by a player who knew what he was doing. However, while the player knew what he was doing, I still keep getting beaten in PvP (If I am ever in one), simply because I cannot use the build efficiently or because when PvP happens I start shaking on my sit for reasons I can only phatom and I make misclicks or just am too nervous to know what to do.

Perhaps that could be the case to some players that often lose in PvP too. It's not necessarily because the PC you fought against is a powerbuild. It might be that you (in general) were unable to use your own build to its fullest - and this can happen for many reasons: you like RP more than battle and you would like to have tried another way, while you could PvP it can make you nervous and before you know what you can do you are already dead...

I sometimes complain when I enter PvP and lose. Sometimes it's because I was jealous, sometimes it's because I would have liked a chance at talking before heading straight to punches but I was not given a chance and while hoping for RP while logging on now I am laying dead struggling between respawning and assume an adventurer raised me or truly wait to see if someone would come across my corpse to raise... there are other possibilities.

If you (in general, not only the OP or Bravo above) have a gripe against a powerbuild or a classe because ~you~ cannot win against it, just make sure to:

a) Learn IC how to fight against;
b) Have friends with you next time you are hunting and comes across one.

Any balanced group can win against anything.

To illustrate: when I was level 13 (multiclassing) I was in a party complete with a bard, a mage, a priest and a tank (I was the one with most attacks, even though less damage, the opposite of tank and which name I forgot what would be). Our highest level was 16, if memory serves, and we managed to make a complete run of Frosties + Spires, with minimal losses.

So, yes. As everyone keeps saying, Amia tried to balance classes. If you cannot beat a PC single-handedly, don't feel bad for it.

Again, not meant as a flame.

If any of you feel insulted, I apologize. But it certainly was not my intention.

Last edited by Dwagin on Sat, Aug 01 2009, 21:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Bravo21 wrote:

This is a wanna be RP server.

No. No. No.

A lack of an overly oppressive staff does not make this a 'wanna be' RP server.

RP on Amia is as 'Light' or 'Heavy' as each individual makes it. It is popular because it is friendly to the whole gamut of RPers, from neophyte to high opinioned ones, as long as they all behave civilly is all that matters.

Acceptance and openness isn't a bad thing, and it does not hurt RP. It should be a breeding ground for RP and creativity.

Well, if we can all stop focusing on what other people do, and be more concerned with what we can do for other people with our RP.

@ Black, idk if I can see any group with level 16-13 running through spires. They have 35AB and I beleive 40ish AC?

Not saying you're lying but this is with level drains coming at you, blade barriers that can do 70 damage, Crits of 60 damage from the spire guys, and 30 on regular hits. Would have owned a party eevn if drinking heal pots, I got chaps that if I lag and get flat footed I can die in 10-15 seconds and Im talking 57ac chaps with 350 +hp...

But about the thread, counters to everything, but still good luck agaisnt some, sometimes you just gotta be lucky. 2 dev critters, who rolls the first 1.

GreatPigeon wrote:

@ Black, idk if I can see any group with level 16-13 running through spires. They have 35AB and I beleive 40ish AC?

Duoed the Fire giant king/queen and entire spires at 17 with my partner. Probably could have done it at 16, we were just hunting elsewhere, at the time tho.

is very possible to have 50 ac by 15 as a cleric, solo.

I'd say in a properly built/geared/playing level 15 party of cleric, fighter/WM, Wizard, Bard, can do the spires with tactics, all the way up to and including the king/queen.

Yup. They can probably solo it.

But is it effective? Not the very least.

If you're doing it for xp, you're way better off going somewhere else.

Hmm i never went there at such low level, you'd be chuggin away heal kits and pots it seems like or resting on teh dot every 15 minutes or waiting actually to rest.. meh idk.

GreatPigeon wrote:

@ Black, idk if I can see any group with level 16-13 running through spires. They have 35AB and I beleive 40ish AC?

Not saying you're lying but this is with level drains coming at you, blade barriers that can do 70 damage, Crits of 60 damage from the spire guys, and 30 on regular hits. Would have owned a party eevn if drinking heal pots, I got chaps that if I lag and get flat footed I can die in 10-15 seconds and Im talking 57ac chaps with 350 +hp...

But about the thread, counters to everything, but still good luck agaisnt some, sometimes you just gotta be lucky. 2 dev critters, who rolls the first 1.

My memory is awful. I could have been level 15. But I know that I got to at least two levels in that run. Probably 15, yep, and ended up being 17 by the end.

But it's not impossible with strategy, plus Bard Song, plus Haste, plus one good summon, plus other buffs.

The caster PC did give us GMW of +5, too.

And I agree about luck. I keep forgetting that one is also a major factor.

Our crew of dwarves went through the Spires once upon a time and had very little difficulty whipping everythings' face. We were between levels 15 and 18, if I recall. It's certainly do-able, but Mago's right. There are better places to go for xp potential. Giants just take too long to kill at that level.

Dwarves get +4 dodge AC vs giants, very nice to have.

Dwagin wrote:

Bravo21 wrote:

This is a wanna be RP server.

No. No. No.

A lack of an overly oppressive staff does not make this a 'wanna be' RP server.

RP on Amia is as 'Light' or 'Heavy' as each individual makes it. It is popular because it is friendly to the whole gamut of RPers, from neophyte to high opinioned ones, as long as they all behave civilly is all that matters.

Acceptance and openness isn't a bad thing, and it does not hurt RP. It should be a breeding ground for RP and creativity.

Well, if we can all stop focusing on what other people do, and be more concerned with what we can do for other people with our RP.

This.

I love Dwagins posts in here. And i'm having another cup of coffee.

Do builds affect RP at all? No. So the argument that if affects the 'RP' nature of the server is a bit... flawed.

Builds do, however, affect the enjoyment of people who engage in that sort of thing. For better, or worse. Considering we can handle this, without affecting RP that much, I can't see why people wouldn't go to efforts to fix this.

Yes, this is an RP server, but RP isn't the only thing that people enjoy, nor is it the only thing Amia caters for.

Players and DMs operating to also balance out / enhance the other aspects of the game for the enjoyment and fairness of those who engage in that aspect, is a positive thing.

Those who don't care about builds, or powerlevelling, or anything of the sort, largely, don't care.

Those who do care, are the same ones who engage in the discussions about class power (for, or against).

Whining about the build I didn't take.

Who is online