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ZenMonkey47
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 Posted: Mon, Sep 14 2009, 21:42 PM |
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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Would a Paladin of a god of lawful neutral alignment have more wiggle room for what they can and can't do than a Paladin of a god of lawful good?
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Mon, Sep 14 2009, 23:25 PM |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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There wouldn't be "wiggle" room. Your paladin will be lawful, and therefore stick to a strict code of conduct. This code is based on the patron's portfolio. Though, some paladins don't have a patron (and wouldn't be allowed to cast divine magic, I think), but as you mentioned, your example paladin does have a patron.
So basically, no wiggle room in terms of freedom to do acts of "good" or "evil". But a LN god may have you do more than just "do-gooder" actions.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 0:08 AM |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Actually I have thought about this as well and talked to a player who has been playing Amia a lot longer than I. He recounted to me an example of a paladin that was by all intents and purposes Chaotic Good. He sometimes even tortured people to get the information that he needed. He felt that he was still following his Paladin's code because he was saving lives through the actions that he was taking.
Paladins can be human too, mistakes can be made and those mistakes fixed through redemption. They do not have to always be the same two dimensional characters they are always stereotyped into. As long as they are within the boundaries of their code and their god's will then I refuse to believe that every paladin should be lawful good.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 0:13 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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divinesaint wrote: He recounted to me an example of a paladin that was by all intents and purposes Chaotic Good. He sometimes even tortured people to get the information that he needed. He felt that he was still following his Paladin's code because he was saving lives through the actions that he was taking.
That's the role of a Greyguard. A paladin does that and a paladin will Fall, it's against their code.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 0:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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Yurell wrote: divinesaint wrote: He recounted to me an example of a paladin that was by all intents and purposes Chaotic Good. He sometimes even tortured people to get the information that he needed. He felt that he was still following his Paladin's code because he was saving lives through the actions that he was taking. That's the role of a Greyguard. A paladin does that and a paladin will Fall, it's against their code. Yea, definitely. If a paladin did that, no more paladin levels for him/her. _________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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-Cloak-and-Dagger-
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 0:54 AM |
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Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
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A Paladins first duty is to his god, but, IMO, if his deity is not LG he wouldnt follow his code to the letter. He'd omit the rough stuff. Paladins are not LN.
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Gunz
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 1:00 AM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Aye. But, you can't forget that Grayguards are still paladins. Grayguards do the sketchy stuff, not normal paladins.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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soundofastream
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 2:18 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Paladin Orders have very specific gods and very specific duties within their churches:
http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/P ... s_by_Deity
A few on that list don't say what their order does. For instance, Helm's paladin's main duty is to protect the weak.
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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Sadrin
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 2:39 AM |
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Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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divinesaint wrote: Actually I have thought about this as well and talked to a player who has been playing Amia a lot longer than I. He recounted to me an example of a paladin that was by all intents and purposes Chaotic Good. He sometimes even tortured people to get the information that he needed. He felt that he was still following his Paladin's code because he was saving lives through the actions that he was taking.
Yeah..no. In the first place, even a Chaotic Good character is going to be incredibly loathe to engage in torture, it would be something done as an extreme last resort, not on a routine basis.
And secondly, a Paladin is a Paladin is a Paladin.
A Paladin's specific duties and areas of interest may vary depending on his Patron and/or Order (Some Gods have multiple Orders with specific interests, some Orders have Paladins of multiple Gods), but certain standards of conduct and chivalry are going to be nearly universal.
As a rule of thumb, if your 'Paladin' is engaging in behavior that would be likely to provoke another Paladin into killing him, (like torturing people), he's doing it wrong.
Edit: Regarding the OP specific question, the fact that their Patron is LN, or non-Lawful Good, doesn't change the essential nature of Paladin. In fact, IIRC it's often stated that Paladins of such deities often find themselves at loggerheads with other members of the church exactly because their uncompromising code occasionally conflicts with the more flexible outlook of the clergy.
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 2:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Sadrin wrote: divinesaint wrote: Actually I have thought about this as well and talked to a player who has been playing Amia a lot longer than I. He recounted to me an example of a paladin that was by all intents and purposes Chaotic Good. He sometimes even tortured people to get the information that he needed. He felt that he was still following his Paladin's code because he was saving lives through the actions that he was taking.
Yeah..no. In the first place, even a Chaotic Good character is going to be incredibly loathe to engage in torture, it would be something done as an extreme last resort, not on a routine basis. And secondly, a Paladin is a Paladin is a Paladin. A Paladin's specific duties and areas of interest may vary depending on his Patron and/or Order (Some Gods have multiple Orders with specific interests, some Orders have Paladins of multiple Gods), but certain standards of conduct and chivalry are going to be nearly universal. As a rule of thumb, if your 'Paladin' is engaging in behavior that would be likely to provoke another Paladin into killing him, (like torturing people), he's doing it wrong. Yeah..well. I was using the most extreme example that I was given. This example was from a character that is long since gone and torture was the most extreme thing that I could come up with off the top of my head. You are right. A paladin is a paladin is a paladin, but does that necessarily mean that all paladins abstain from violence for instance, or using dirty means to achieve a better outcome? If you are lawful, of course you do. The law is the law and that law is to be followed to the letter. If you are not lawful then maybe you are a bit more proactive when it comes to seeking, and rooting out "evil" where ever it is found. Hoar is about vengeance. Hoar has paladins. Helm is about defending the weak no matter the cost or the means. You get the job done, end of story. Helm has paladins.
Either way, I was just trying to play devil's advocate or whatever you want to call it. Realistically it is depressing to think of all paladins as purely two-dimensional characters that never break the law. What if the law is no longer in accordance with all that is righteous in the paladin's perception of justice? Anyways, just food for thought. Take it as you will.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 2:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Paladins on Amia have to follow the Paladins code in that little book they get given AFAIK - they break it and they are likely to Fall, depending on DM discretion.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:02 AM |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Then if you fall you either stay fallen or earn Redemption. All I am getting at is that paladins are fallible individuals the same as any other class. Although they are held to a higher moral standard they can still fail to meet that standard. A paladin is a paragon of righteousness or should be. I am not disagreeing with that fact.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:04 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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divinesaint wrote: Then if you fall you either stay fallen or earn Redemption. All I am getting at is that paladins are fallible individuals the same as any other class. Although they are held to a higher moral standard they can still fail to meet that standard. A paladin is a paragon of righteousness or should be. I am not disagreeing with that fact.
Yes, but that doesn't lend itself to more wriggle-room.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:08 AM |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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All I am trying to convey is that the "Good" part should be more important than the "Lawful" part. If beating information out of someone "Evil" means that you are potentially saving the lives of innocent people then why is should that be the cause of a fall?
If a paladin enters a country in which the worship and practices of his god are banned do you not think that he is going to break the law to continue to serve his god? Is that not wiggle room in which the law could be broken?
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Sadrin
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:14 AM |
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Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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divinesaint wrote: A paladin is a paladin is a paladin, but does that necessarily mean that all paladins abstain from violence for instance, or using dirty means to achieve a better outcome? If you are lawful, of course you do. The law is the law and that law is to be followed to the letter. If you are not lawful then maybe you are a bit more proactive when it comes to seeking, and rooting out "evil" where ever it is found.
Either way, I was just trying to play devil's advocate or whatever you want to call it. Realistically it is depressing to think of all paladins as purely two-dimensional characters that never break the law. What if the law is no longer in accordance with all that is righteous in the paladin's perception of justice? Anyways, just food for thought. Take it as you will. As a rule, I think people who interpret 'Lawful' to mean "Blindly follows every single local ordinance without question" are in danger of strying into Lawful Stupid territory, ie, a Paladin who beheads someone for Jaywalking because "It's again the Law! So it's in my alignment!" I tend to view the "Lawful" is being more a reference to their strict, uncompromising code/stance on "honorable behavior". To put it another way, a Paladin is under no obligation to obey an unjust law/one that directly violates his own code. If they were, that would make it rather difficult for them to oppose tyranny/fight evil regimes. A Paladin is not going to participate in a human sacrifice to Bane just because the law in Zhentil Keep says all visitors are required to do so. (as a fictional extreme example). Quote: Hoar is about vengeance. Hoar has paladins. Helm is about defending the weak no matter the cost or the means. You get the job done, end of story. Helm has paladins.
Well yes, but the specific of their deities portfolio don't actually change the standards of behavior of a Paladin. A Paladin of Hoar would seek out those who have escaped justice and carry it out themselves, within the bounds of their code. They aren't going to torture someone, or torch a village to smoke out their quarry.
Everything I've read about Helms Paladins suggest that they tend to be less popular because they view exterminating evil as the most effective method of protecting the weak, and are less likely to spend much time repairing/helping those who have suffered the effects of evil. IE, a Paladin of Helm who comes across a village attacked by bandits is less likely to hang around and comfort/help the village, and more likely to ride off and wipe out the bandits.
That being the point, being a Lawful Good Paladin doesn't require you to be a two dimensional character, within the various dogmas of their Patrons, their code, and their alignment it is entirely possible to have a unique character, without descending into "Paladin in name only" territory.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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divinesaint wrote: All I am trying to convey is that the "Good" part should be more important than the "Lawful" part. If beating information out of someone "Evil" means that you are potentially saving the lives of innocent people then why is should that be the cause of a fall?
If a paladin enters a country in which the worship and practices of his god are banned do you not think that he is going to break the law to continue to serve his god? Is that not wiggle room in which the law could be broken? Well, the 'Good' part can be more important than the 'Lawful' part, so long as it stays within then 'Lawful Good' box. Your 'wriggle room' isn't really there - you have to obey the Paladin's code, and you're duty-bound to obey our god's code. When the two conflict, I think you're stuck with the Paladin Code winning. divinesaint wrote: If beating information out of someone "Evil" means that you are potentially saving the lives of innocent people then why is should that be the cause of a fall?
That comes down to objective and subjective evils, as well as 'ends justify the means'. That would be decided in individual circumstance, but all I can say as far as that goes is that you can't be an epitome of good (i.e. exalted) and choose that path.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:18 AM |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Yurell wrote: divinesaint wrote: All I am trying to convey is that the "Good" part should be more important than the "Lawful" part. If beating information out of someone "Evil" means that you are potentially saving the lives of innocent people then why is should that be the cause of a fall?
If a paladin enters a country in which the worship and practices of his god are banned do you not think that he is going to break the law to continue to serve his god? Is that not wiggle room in which the law could be broken? Well, the 'Good' part can be more important than the 'Lawful' part, so long as it stays within then 'Lawful Good' box. Your 'wriggle room' isn't really there - you have to obey the Paladin's code, and you're duty-bound to obey our god's code. When the two conflict, I think you're stuck with the Paladin Code winning. divinesaint wrote: If beating information out of someone "Evil" means that you are potentially saving the lives of innocent people then why is should that be the cause of a fall? That comes down to objective and subjective evils, as well as 'ends justify the means'. That would be decided in individual circumstance, but all I can say as far as that goes is that you can't be an epitome of good (i.e. exalted) and choose that path. Yurell, as always you are both insightful and convincing. Thanks for indulging my silly arguements. 
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Sadrin
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 3:19 AM |
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Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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divinesaint wrote: Then if you fall you either stay fallen or earn Redemption. All I am getting at is that paladins are fallible individuals the same as any other class. Although they are held to a higher moral standard they can still fail to meet that standard. A paladin is a paragon of righteousness or should be. I am not disagreeing with that fact.
Fallible yes, that's not the same thing as "wiiggle room". A Paladin falling, and having to seek Redemption, should A. Be a very rare thing, and B. Be incredibly traumatizing for said Paladin, from their point of view they have fundamentally failed their patron and everything they swore to uphold.
A Paladin looking for "Wiggle-room", who finds himself doing penance every other week, is likely going to start facing some hard questions from his Patron/Clergy.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 4:19 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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In Before IronAngel. Heeeeere we go again.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 4:21 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: In Before IronAngel. Heeeeere we go again.
The last discussion went quite well, though.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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xordae
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 4:42 AM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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ZenMonkey47 wrote: Would a Paladin of a god of lawful neutral alignment have more wiggle room for what they can and can't do than a Paladin of a god of lawful good?
Very short answer: Yes.
A Paladin not only follows general rules but also the creed of his chosen god. These two could overlap, or not.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 4:55 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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xordae wrote: ZenMonkey47 wrote: Would a Paladin of a god of lawful neutral alignment have more wiggle room for what they can and can't do than a Paladin of a god of lawful good? Very short answer: Yes. A Paladin not only follows general rules but also the creed of his chosen god. These two could overlap, or not. Very short answer: No. A Paladin of Hoar (for example) doesn't get to do dirty nasty things in the name of vengeance just because he's a Hoarran. He's a Paladin first... to Hoar second.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:06 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: xordae wrote: ZenMonkey47 wrote: Would a Paladin of a god of lawful neutral alignment have more wiggle room for what they can and can't do than a Paladin of a god of lawful good? Very short answer: Yes. A Paladin not only follows general rules but also the creed of his chosen god. These two could overlap, or not. Very short answer: No. A Paladin of Hoar (for example) doesn't get to do dirty nasty things in the name of vengeance just because he's a Hoarran. He's a Paladin first... to Hoar second. Aye that's what I was saying. You are bound by the code of the Paladin. After that, you have additional restrictions piled onto you from your god (or not), but when the two conflict, Paladin Code wins.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ticket
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:09 AM |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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Might as well add my questions about the Paladin here.
According to the FR wiki, Paladins can be of any alignments and is mentioned to be "a paragon of their alignment and a model for others of their faith."
Is that right?
If it is, then if a Paladin's patron deity's code veers off what everybody would consider as Lawful Good, then he won't fall. In the deity's eyes, his Paladin is doing what he's supposed to do.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:10 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ticket wrote: Might as well add my questions about the Paladin here. According to the FR wiki, Paladins can be of any alignments and is mentioned to be "a paragon of their alignment and a model for others of their faith." Is that right? If it is, then if a Paladin's patron deity's code veers off what everybody would consider as Lawful Good, then he won't fall. In the deity's eyes, his Paladin is doing what he's supposed to do. That's 4th ed.
We're 3rd / 3.5 ... Paladins are LG. Always.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ticket
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:17 AM |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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Yurell wrote: That's 4th ed.
We're 3rd / 3.5 ... Paladins are LG. Always.
I see.. but still how could a deity (e.g. Hoar) punish his Paladin when he's following his code? Only a deity can fall a Paladin right, there's no bar or council of Paladins that will do it.
Hoar punishing his Paladin just because he's not being "Lawful Good" to the world while he continues to bless his blackguards who does the same seems weird.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:18 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yurell wrote: TormakSaber wrote: xordae wrote: ZenMonkey47 wrote: Would a Paladin of a god of lawful neutral alignment have more wiggle room for what they can and can't do than a Paladin of a god of lawful good? Very short answer: Yes. A Paladin not only follows general rules but also the creed of his chosen god. These two could overlap, or not. Very short answer: No. A Paladin of Hoar (for example) doesn't get to do dirty nasty things in the name of vengeance just because he's a Hoarran. He's a Paladin first... to Hoar second. Aye that's what I was saying. You are bound by the code of the Paladin. After that, you have additional restrictions piled onto you from your god (or not), but when the two conflict, Paladin Code wins. grmbl...
There is no universal Paladin's Code and the book you ge tin Amia is a bunch of cack. That said Paladins are alwyas LG and strive to be the embodiment of LG and this can get them into trouble with their god's dogma sometimes if the god isn't LG. And in this case, following Dogma too much can actually mess with the Paladin too. You could be a perfect servant of Sune but fail as a Paladin.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:20 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ticket wrote: Yurell wrote: That's 4th ed.
We're 3rd / 3.5 ... Paladins are LG. Always. I see.. but still how could a deity (e.g. Hoar) punish his Paladin when he's following his code? Only a deity can fall a Paladin right, there's no bar or council of Paladins that will do it. Hoar punishing his Paladin just because he's not being "Lawful Good" to the world while he continues to bless his blackguards who does the same seems weird. AFAIK its not the god that 'Falls' them. They just ... Fall.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 5:41 AM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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TormakSaber wrote: He's a Paladin first... to Hoar second.
::cackle::
Buncha Hoars. That's right, I'm talking to you! ::points at the Hoars::
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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ZenMonkey47
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 6:01 AM |
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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TormakSaber wrote: Very short answer: No. A Paladin of Hoar (for example) doesn't get to do dirty nasty things in the name of vengeance just because he's a Hoarran. He's a Paladin first... to Hoar second.
So, lemmie get this straight. Do the gods have as much effect on a Paladin as they do on... say... a Barbarian? It's only when they lose their respective Paladiny or Barbariany flavor that they actually fall?
Fighters, on the other hand, stay crunchy even in milk.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 6:14 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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A barbarian isn't going to lose his rage because his patron doesn't like him.
A Paladin is going to lose EVERYTHING if he breaks Oath, Vow, whatever, relating to being a Paladin AND relating to being a servant of his god. Paladins tread the thinnest line in DnD. (in 3.5). Period.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:08 AM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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So I am confused.
A Paladin of Hoar taking veangance on an Anhuran for no other reason than that is his dieties Dogma would be falled?
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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:24 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Hoar is really a bad deity for a Paladin. He really is. what Hoar asks his clergy to do and what Paladins are expected to do to keep their paladinic powers basically clash 100%.
If a Paladin of Hoar murders an Anhuran and his explanation is "He worships Anhur", I would fall him, because Murder is an Evil act, and Paladins do not commit Evil.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Charles1810
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:40 AM |
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Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Hubbard, Ohio
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To be honest that line a Paladin walks is so thin I really think it should be an npc only class since following it to the dot is almost virtually impossible without falling or during every moment double thinking your actions if this is to your code.
_________________
Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan
((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 7:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Here, Tormie, let me post in this thread.
That auto-summons Iron, considering it's about Paladins and oaths.
*snicker*
Now, on a serious note, whilst e'en myself recently recanted publically in regards to the "Paladin" code in the FR campaign settings, it's still all over the sourcebooks stating Paladins are Lawful Good.
Charles1810 wrote: To be honest that line a Paladin walks is so thin I really think it should be an npc only class since following it to the dot is almost virtually impossible without falling or during every moment double thinking your actions if this is to your code.
I think Tormaks example is perfect... and it's a great example of how Priestly order conflict with Paladin virtues. That's how it's going to be , sometimes, folks. But remember, a Paladin has a good relationship, a different one even than a cleric, with his / her god. It's personal, and thus his /her God / Goddess would know them. The Gods often tested their Paladins, but rewarded them when they succeeded... and understood the truth behind their actions, because.. well, they are Gods.
So that's why as a DM I've always given some latitude when ruling over a possible Paladin fall... and I'm sure that's how the DM's handle it here.
Regards, _________________ 
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Nekhy
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 8:35 AM |
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Player
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TormakSaber wrote: Hoar is really a bad deity for a Paladin. He really is. what Hoar asks his clergy to do and what Paladins are expected to do to keep their paladinic powers basically clash 100%.
If a Paladin of Hoar murders an Anhuran and his explanation is "He worships Anhur", I would fall him, because Murder is an Evil act, and Paladins do not commit Evil.
To continue on that thought... I'd most likely (there could be a situation where things are different) fall him for that, too, but I'd not fall him for avenging his fellow Hoarites against Anhurans. Which is quite a likely scenario, given they war all the time, in any case.
That's how I've imagined the paladins of LN deities to work. They realise that their deity's path is not always the one they should tread, but don't forbid other followers from doing the dirty work.
It's actually a bit like Jews and Christians from a Jew's point of view: "Pork is forbidden, because I am bound by this code, but even if you serve the same god, you are bound by a different code and can eat all the pork you fancy. Just don't expect me to join you."
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Transcendental Templar
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 8:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Location: Deep within the Fortress of Regrets...
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Yurell wrote: ticket wrote: Yurell wrote: That's 4th ed.
We're 3rd / 3.5 ... Paladins are LG. Always. I see.. but still how could a deity (e.g. Hoar) punish his Paladin when he's following his code? Only a deity can fall a Paladin right, there's no bar or council of Paladins that will do it. Hoar punishing his Paladin just because he's not being "Lawful Good" to the world while he continues to bless his blackguards who does the same seems weird. AFAIK its not the god that 'Falls' them. They just ... Fall. A god provides the paladin with his divine spells and powers, the power hails from that divine source. When a paladin is fallen, he is basically denied his god's grace for a breach of conduct, and you're saying that it's not the god that denies him his powers in the end? TormakSaber wrote: Hoar is really a bad deity for a Paladin. He really is. what Hoar asks his clergy to do and what Paladins are expected to do to keep their paladinic powers basically clash 100%.
If a Paladin of Hoar murders an Anhuran and his explanation is "He worships Anhur", I would fall him, because Murder is an Evil act, and Paladins do not commit Evil.
I'll nudge you for the fall widget when that happens to my pally, in that case, Tormie. Because it has -almost- happened a few times, and it's very likely that at one point it'll end with a certain Anhurite's demise. Though I wonder what sort of atonment quest would a priest of Hoar give a Hoarite pally for killing an Anhurite? 
Simply because Hoarite Dogma rather clearly states that no crimes should ever be forgotten, no matter how old. That rightful and fitting (poetic) justice should always be exacted on the guilty party, and anyone who may be aiding it in it's crimes. My pally uses those fragments of his code to determine how he should react to Anhurans. We have a divine criminal who is guilty of ancient crimes against Hoar, and his willing servants in the world, who by their own choice and will accept and aid Anhur in the world. It is their conscious choice to do so, and they willingly put on his priestly vestments, as such taking the crimes of their god upon their own shoulders.
_________________
"All along the watchtower,
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
,bare-foot servants, too.
Outside in the distance
A wild cat did growl,
Two riders were approaching,
The wind began to howl
All along the watchtower!"
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Gunz
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 8:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Nekhy wrote: I'd most likely (there could be a situation where things are different) fall him for that, too, but I'd not fall him for avenging his fellow Hoarites against Anhurans. Which is quite a likely scenario, given they war all the time, in any case.
That's how I've imagined the paladins of LN deities to work. They realise that their deity's path is not always the one they should tread, but don't forbid other followers from doing the dirty work.
Aye, I agree. A Paladin walks a fine line indeed. And when they worship gods like Hoar, Jergal or Mystra, they walk an even finer line. Much much finer.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Transcendental Templar wrote: Yurell wrote: ticket wrote: Yurell wrote: That's 4th ed.
We're 3rd / 3.5 ... Paladins are LG. Always. I see.. but still how could a deity (e.g. Hoar) punish his Paladin when he's following his code? Only a deity can fall a Paladin right, there's no bar or council of Paladins that will do it. Hoar punishing his Paladin just because he's not being "Lawful Good" to the world while he continues to bless his blackguards who does the same seems weird. AFAIK its not the god that 'Falls' them. They just ... Fall. A god provides the paladin with his divine spells and powers, the power hails from that divine source. When a paladin is fallen, he is basically denied his god's grace for a breach of conduct, and you're saying that it's not the god that denies him his powers in the end? I've just always accepted that they fall, rather than worry about the mechanics of it. Since a paladin Falls for breaking the Paladin Code regardless of deity code, I'm thinking that there must be something else happening (maybe a deal to force the gods?) or that the gods are idiots for denying themselves a useful tool.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Paladins make a deal with their Gods / Goddesses to receive their powers, kinda the same as Blackguards.
So when they fall, its like they defaulted on their contract, and the God is exercising their contractual rights to tell the Paladin to go fuck themselves.
Regards, _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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FA_Frey_XC wrote: Paladins make a deal with their Gods / Goddesses to receive their powers, kinda the same as Blackguards. So when they fall, its like they defaulted on their contract, and the God is exercising their contractual rights Regards, Yes, but if you're a god, and you have a choice to yank the powers of someone who's utterly devoted to you and never broken your code, why would you take it?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Your argument doesn't make sense.
If the person is loyal to that Gods code, he wouldn't fall.
A Paladin that falls is one that choses something else, anything else, personal emotion, philosophical rational, over their Code as a Paladin (defined by the God they are sworn to).
The God says basically "Johnson, you didn't live up to my requirements.. so you don't get the good stuff."
Redemption quests are exactly that, servitude to earn the good grace of the God/desses again to receive the good stuff.
Regards,
_________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:12 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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FA_Frey_XC wrote: Your argument doesn't make sense.
If the person is loyal to that Gods code, he wouldn't fall.
Regards,
Umm, he would if he broke the Paladin code.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Nekhy
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:21 AM |
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Player
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The Paladin Code depends on the paladin and the deity in question. As Tormak said, forget about the Amian code given to paladins.
Essentially, a paladin's code is: Do your god's bidding AND be Lawful Good at the same time. Means you have to skip some of your god's bidding and leave it to others, or do it only when the time is right.
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ticket
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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Nekhy wrote: when the time is right.
When there are no witnesses! 
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Nekhy
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:28 AM |
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Player
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ticket wrote: Nekhy wrote: when the time is right. When there are no witnesses! Doesn't work for a class that epitomises the phrase "God be my witness", I'm afraid.
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Nekhy wrote: The Paladin Code depends on the paladin and the deity in question. As Tormak said, forget about the Amian code given to paladins.
What about the Paladin code in the Player's Handbook?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Yurell, the Paladin Code is based upon each order.
Each Paladin Code would be given by the God / Goddess.
I think your being way to specific here... the Paladin Code would be set by the God / Goddess the paladin works for.
Regards,
_________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 9:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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I just want to know if we can safely ignore what's written in the PHB for FR paladins.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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FA_Frey_XC
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Posted: Tue, Sep 15 2009, 10:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 May 2005
Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
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Yurell wrote: Nekhy wrote: The Paladin Code depends on the paladin and the deity in question. As Tormak said, forget about the Amian code given to paladins.
What about the Paladin code in the Player's Handbook? For Forgotten Realms?
Seriously, we've been through this all before. In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, it specifically states that -each- Diety has it's own "Codes" for the Paladin orders that follow them... but the Paladin, by it's very nature, =must= be Lawful Good.
The Players handbook is a general reference, the campaign setting is the actual environment. So if the FR campaign setting has rulesets that supercede the Players Handbook, the campaign system typically trumps it.
So, let's break it down, what can make you fall:
1.) Commit an act that causes you to get evil / chaotic points (DM Discretion)
2.) Commit an act, or by the lack of action, anything that a DM might consider failing the edicts and codes of the Diety the paladin was sworn to.
Hope that clears things up.
Regards,
P.S the "seriously, we've been through" bit wasn't sarcastic or an attempt to belittle you. I meant that just straight forwardly.
 _________________
"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
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