AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I have never encountered Darthion, IC or OOC. Even so, both my main PCs have heard so much about the Big Banite that I believe they would cower at the thought of fighting him. Reputation matters, builds don't. A strong build helps building a reputation, but it's not the build per se that "spreads" fear.

There was a post that might have passed more or less unnoticed. I feel the need to bring it up again.

Gravemaskin wrote:

How about removing raise scrolls all together then, so only those who get it trough spells can cast it. (or those clerics, with scribe scroll) BUT add a service in all temples to raise people, if you write their names out to the cleric and pay a fee? No more mid combat raising, unless you're a caster who can actually do that. And whoever's dead, is raised in the local temple, for a fee.
edit:
And without the ability to say.. go into combat for a while, thanks to some sort of supernatural daze effect that lasts for 4-5 minutes, even trough mindblanks?

I think give RD a spell component, like TS and IGMS. That'll make people think before spamming it.

It won't. What it will do is invoke the hassle of carrying said components.

Riddle wrote:

Exactly why you wouldnt wanna die, which is the point. Or do you suggest we make the death as pleasant as possible, which is the opposite of what everyone is talking about?

I'm looking for solutions that try to give death impact without being ignored in RP after they're implemented, or achieving this impact by being lengthy, repetitive, annoying.

1) If you let NPC priests raise the dead by writing down the name of the guy, for example, it changes nothing at all. Instead of buying scrolls at the temple, a surviving party member goes there to rez everyone by using the priest.

2) If you make rezzes more expensive, or add a component, it changes nothing at all. People have money.

3) If you prohibit dead people from coming back to life for X amount of time, it changes something. But the message is effectively "you're dead, so log off. We prohibit you to RP for X amount of time".

4) Fugue planes and such are not random, therefore they become a one-time surprise and then a hundred times repetition. It may give death impact, but it generates a lot of annoyance.

Removing the ability for every Joe Schmoe to raise people from the dead is the most sensible and direct solution. It's clear as day to me. Death has no meaning because every single character is able to bring people back to life. Not saying that some small death penalty wouldn't be nice, but there is your culprit right there.

TormakSaber wrote:

It won't. What it will do is invoke the hassle of carrying said components.

So? wasn't that one of the arguments for TS being a component and not a gold cost, that it would cause inconvenience, force people to strategically buy spell components, and can't carry around a million because of file / inventory size?

I didn't say it was good or bad, I'm saying it's not a deterrent: People will buy and carry enough to allow them to spam as needed.

Let them. Or you could change TS to a gold cost, I'd be fine with that too

But seriously, adding in the PnP gold cost would certainly help drain gold from the economy, while adding components in easy to get to but annoyingly far away places will make people be more careful to save the convenience.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's more the opposite. Darthion has done so ridiculously much, WITHOUT the build that in order to even half ass maintain the IC rep he's garnered through non PVP RP, he has to have as streamlined and tweaked a build as possible. It's a minor catch-22. He has the buiuld because everyone, everyday, wants to kill him dead, and he has to defend himself. This is aside from the PvP that is sometimes started by him, yes, but the self defense clause comes in much more often, speaking as a DM who enjoys watching PvP.

If you don't think the character is deserving on any amount of IC respect, you're probably either new to Amia or a member of 2 very specific factions, tbh.

Nice validation for Darthion and Mr Mago, but where is the hint of what the topic was about in the first place?

And since you're being honest, what two factions specifically?

You insulted a player personally and I corrected you.

What 2 factions it is is not your business, unlike being wrong about Darthion.

Quote:

But seriously, adding in the PnP gold cost would certainly help drain gold from the economy, while adding components in easy to get to but annoyingly far away places will make people be more careful to save the convenience.

You affect the new players without money and do nothing to those with it.

I vote at the very least make Raise Dead scrolls actually only usable by clerics.. The VERY least.

Last edited by Yurell on Thu, Nov 19 2009, 2:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Fair enough.

Edit: @ Tormak

jafman30 wrote:

I vote at the very least make Raise Dead scrolls actually only usable by clerics.. The VERY least.

May as well take them out at that point because the cleric can cast it.

I agree with Darthion and to put another spin on this, there are players that immediately go for the kill when they see certain characters. So, one of my characters rarely starts PVP and yet is frequently attacked. (I would like to thank Meldriums player for at least having RP before attacking and having the courage to stop before the kill).

Frankly, I follow what the read out says and am Knocked Out and I RP either groaning with my 1hp or if I have regen equipment it’s a very slow coming to. The best RP is when you aren’t killed but knocked out (thanks to Tarick for some great RP in that vein. I use his wonderful RP on others to let them know they are simply knocked out.)

And I call players out when they jump up and run off with 1hp and tell them to get back on the ground (I recently discovered all those players who get saved by their gods – and there have been a lot – were acting naughty and they shouldn’t have done that). Do I get listened to? Not all the time, some folk get a little upset cause they got pwnd *pats heads*.

There are some really good ideas to make it less desirable to get your character into a position to be killed and should have something apply to those who go about willy-nilly killing anything that moves. Don’t forget there are other servers you can go to and PVP and get raised ad infinitum. Try the knocked out version folks its more fun.

PS. Just so you know I have at least 2 characters who are terrified of Darthion, one because hes HUGE!!!!

Would switching the UMD switch on for them work?

UMD is already practically an essential on the server, let's not remove scrolls for everyone except those with UMD.

TormakSaber wrote:

May as well take them out at that point because the cleric can cast it.

True.

Leave clerics with their spells, then make it so you can only buy a scroll for every once you've died. Would make for a wieeerd experience.

Don't take that seriously, I don't think it would work.

Actually, come to think of it I don't think there's a problem with the current system. Well, I think there is a lot, but other systems don't get much better IMO ... as it is is pretty good. No matter what you do, it's up to the player to RP how they treat death.

TormakSaber wrote:

You insulted a player personally and I corrected you.

What 2 factions it is is not your business, unlike being wrong about Darthion.

As long as you're being fair, where is the admonission for Mr Mago's ussage of derogatory satements and foul language in several of his responces so far? Which is the reason I made the comment of Mr Mago being allowed to do so with apperant DM approval. And yet you take the time to bully and flame me for not breaking the forum rules. Nice to know where you're hollow words place you in any debate.

And other than being wrong, in your opinion, if the two factions are none of my business, why bring them up.

Other then to assert your own superiority in knowledge, of course.

I spoke to Mago in MSN regarding his remarks. I don't have the luxury of doing so with you.

The two factions do not need to be named because they don't need to be. Maybe you should go find out ICly?

Are you done baseless insulting me in public yet or will you handle it in a PM?

TormakSaber wrote:

I spoke to Mago in MSN regarding his remarks. I don't have the luxury of doing so with you.

The two factions do not need to be named because they don't need to be. Maybe you should go find out ICly?

Are you done baseless insulting me in public yet or will you handle it in a PM?

I am comforted to hear that Mago did get spoken to, but the fact that it happened in private leaves the immpression that it was a friend talking to a friend, not a DM enforcing the forum rules. A view held by many on the server and reinforced by you're own actions and words. I'm simply calling you out in public to highlight the fact.

And no, no PM's for you. If you cannot or will not rebutt any of my statements in public, then don't draw a line in the sand by trying to tell me I'm wrong and not wanting to back it up.

I'd prefer to not let this become any more personal than it already has, and if you feel attacked personally then you have my sincere appology. I'm very sorry. I'm willing to let this go, provided I have no cause to respond further.

I offered PM so that the topic can stay on topic. That's all. The factions are private factions that like to stay quiet and secret. Mentioning them in public is a form of metagaming itself.

TormakSaber wrote:

I offered PM so that the topic can stay on topic. That's all. The factions are private factions that like to stay quiet and secret. Mentioning them in public is a form of metagaming itself.

Oh, that's fair. I just objected to being bludgeoned with information I couldn't be privvy to. But you did mention it and as you pointed out, it is metagamming, all for a quick quip designed to be derogatory and imply that my own statements were made because of a particular faction and not for any other reason.

How did that work for you?

I am truely sorry if this seems to be an attack on you, you just happened to attract my full and undivided attention, by making statements without due consideration of their consequences. Just not in the mood to humor you...

If you boys are done, can we get back on topic now?

The system as it stands now is functional, but that's all. I've got a rusted out '82 Dodge pickup that backfires every other block and has no passenger side door and a brand new Cadillac with all it's fine perks. Which do you want?

My point is, the system we have is the Dodge. Sure, it'll get you from point A to point B.... most of the time. Yet, you try not to drive it too much because you never know when it's going to break down on you and ruin your trip.

The system as it stands now works.... most of the time. Yet, you never know when you're going to get some jerk that wants to godgame and cause a breakdown in your RP and ruin your trip.

The Cadillac would be the system after some sort of change that would hopefully create both an IC and OOC fear of dying from anything, be it PvP or PvM. It would run smoothly and ensure that no breakdown of RP comes from godgaming death and that everyone's trip is smooth and fun.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather have a brand new Cadillac over a rusted out P.O.S. anyday.

As I mentioned before, Won Won had an excellent solution in the form of a cool down on the use of heal potions. If it was extended to the use of raise scrolls, say something on the order of 2 to 5 turns(20 to 50 rounds), would solve many of the issues stated in the thread already. Making it possible to raise someone in PvP, but only once during the battle unless it lasts a really long time. It would allow more IC deliberation of PvP and not drastically change inventory needs or the cost of supplies.

Could always seperate raise dead and ressurection.

Raise Dead in PnP terms needs the whole body intact. Ressurection only need a piece of the body.

So when someone is killed, it leaves a body, depending on how much damage was done it can be a normal body, or a mangled body.

So for example if someone gets killed by a dev crit, it would require ressurection in order to raise the character, as raise dead would not work

I like the idea of going back to the golden days, where if you don't have a cleric in your party, you don't get the healsauce.

Also, as far as raises go, Clerics also have the option of taking Scribe Scroll. Couldn't we get rid of the raises available in the shops, and give the ability over to the Clerics who could manufacture raise/rez scrolls with all those blank parchments floating about the server? Because those scrolls aren't incredibly common drops, it would cut down on the availability and put the ol' fear of death back into the playerbase.

You could pull the same move with Heal and Mass Heal. The spell would still be available, but significantly less so. Sure, you might have ten Heals in your inventory, but you probably aren't going to burn off all of them in one PvP, as players are certainly able to do with stacks upon stacks of Heal pots.

We'd end up with player-run healing shops where you could go to buy the raise scrolls, and if there isn't a player selling the goodies, then as you would be in reality, you're screwed for a while. Maybe you and your party will have to forego the hunting mission for the night, and try socializing with others of the community.

Would make things interesting, and would make the feat worth taking for the clerics on the server.

I'm especially partial to that last idea. Some party member gets killed, and worst case scenario, you can try to get help from the legions of people shooting the breeze outside of the temple. (Generally in the rain)

Rescue mission!

So meleers get shanked, UMD becomes even more needed and casters and clerics become the most powerful things on the server more than they already are.

Yay!

ainjyll wrote:

If you boys are done, can we get back on topic now?

The system as it stands now is functional, but that's all. I've got a rusted out '82 Dodge pickup that backfires every other block and has no passenger side door and a brand new Cadillac with all it's fine perks. Which do you want?

My point is, the system we have is the Dodge. Sure, it'll get you from point A to point B.... most of the time. Yet, you try not to drive it too much because you never know when it's going to break down on you and ruin your trip.

The system as it stands now works.... most of the time. Yet, you never know when you're going to get some jerk that wants to godgame and cause a breakdown in your RP and ruin your trip.

The Cadillac would be the system after some sort of change that would hopefully create both an IC and OOC fear of dying from anything, be it PvP or PvM. It would run smoothly and ensure that no breakdown of RP comes from godgaming death and that everyone's trip is smooth and fun.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather have a brand new Cadillac over a rusted out P.O.S. anyday.

Or the current system is a set of dice for D&D, while the new one is a set of shiny d6's ... sure they look better, and are better in some regards, but you can't have as much fun with them.

Which would you rather have - the full set of dice, or dice that are nice to look at but can't be used for fun?

Most fighters (with a mind for PvP at all) will take UMD regardless. Opens up too many worthwhile strategies with the variety of magical items on the server.

As it stands, no one is required to deal with the repurcussions of death in any way on this server, so naturally there's a trail of goobs walking around who meta the crap out of that knowledge, and do things that their character, in the interest of self-preservation, probably wouldn't.

If anything, I'd say it evens the field a little more. Given, Clerics would be monopolizing Heal, Rez, and Raise, but you've got to admit that infinite insta-heals at the click of a mouse being available to anyone is a hair ridiculous. It doesn't make anything even and completely screws with balance. As it is, PvP -and- PvE have been reduced to "Oh, hamburgers, I'm almost dead! *click* Whew. That was scary."

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

Mr Mago wrote:

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

story of a shifters life

sorry I had to

Mr Mago wrote:

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

+

As long as the cooldown goes for the clerical spells too, not only the potions.

xordae wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

+

As long as the cooldown goes for the clerical spells too, not only the potions.

That's what I was thinking, yeah.

I usually have one easy method of dealing with PvP. I don't OOC raise them, let them stew in their juices for 5 full minutes. I do this because I feel its right.

But it should be that if your PvP tool is set to killer mode, the character shouldn't be able to log in until next reset.

Last edited by Azrael on Thu, Nov 19 2009, 10:36 AM, edited 4 times in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

xordae wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

+

As long as the cooldown goes for the clerical spells too, not only the potions.

That's what I was thinking, yeah.

I like it.

...but, going to have to put this out there, "If Heal Potion chugging and mass raises are eliminated within a reasonable time period for a normal pvp encounter..."

...timestop needs to be looked at as it is the counter to raise/healpot mass swarms. If the reason the counter is there is gone, it begs a nerf 'at least.'<------------------said by the 'mage guy'

Time Stop needs to be removed.

But this topic isn't about Time Stop, and won't become it.

Look if you're just going to let this topic run and run until its zombified legs wear out, the least you could do is summarise the good the bad and the ugly and start a new thread. Because much like Family Fortunes, we're getting people repeating answers that have already been given.

That's Numberwang!

xordae wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

+

As long as the cooldown goes for the clerical spells too, not only the potions.

Whoa, there Turbo. Let's turn the boost back a bit on that idea.

The whole idea to put a cool down on heal potions is to keep people from nomnom'ing heal pots like they're certs. Part of the reason to have a cleric in your party is their healing ability. Clerics already have a limit on the amount of healing they can do through spells. Even if they put every spell in the level to heal and resurrection, they're still not going to get more than a handful or so before they have to rest.

It's not like the cleric has any competition against 3 stacks of heal potions and 1 stack of Raise Dead scrolls.

I found, when I played a cleric regularly, that most of the time that I cast a heal spell, the melee player beat me to the punch and popped a heal potion, because they had 200 of them in their inventory, and it's quick and fast.

I'd have been thrilled if heal potions had a cooldown, allowing me to actually have a chance to use my heal spells.

As a note - the melee folks would chug a heal when they were not even halfway down in hp sometimes (aka - almost always), whereas I'd generally wait until they were at least to half hp before casting a heal, since until epic, heal spells are not available in virtually unlimited quantities, especially for a cleric who is actually buffing people too, and trying to contribute to combat while also healing.

Adding a cooldown is easy enough. Good idea or not, needs to go though the balance place.

ainjyll wrote:

xordae wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Cooldown timer for both heal potions and raise dead/resurrection.

Remove raise dead scrolls.

Seems like an easy enough implementation to me, that wouldn't screw over the meleers.

After all, if you need to chug down a heal potion more often than once per minute in PvM, you're probably trying to fight something that's too difficult for you.

Either step down in CR or get a few extra party members.

+

As long as the cooldown goes for the clerical spells too, not only the potions.

Whoa, there Turbo. Let's turn the boost back a bit on that idea.

The whole idea to put a cool down on heal potions is to keep people from nomnom'ing heal pots like they're certs. Part of the reason to have a cleric in your party is their healing ability. Clerics already have a limit on the amount of healing they can do through spells. Even if they put every spell in the level to heal and resurrection, they're still not going to get more than a handful or so before they have to rest.

It's not like the cleric has any competition against 3 stacks of heal potions and 1 stack of Raise Dead scrolls.

Exactly. No extreme changes are needed. By having a certain amount of time between heals and raises, reduces the number of people running around after being dropped in PvP. As a result the cleric does not actually become more powerful in that more healing and res spell mean less buffing, so it's a trade-off.

There are a number of people on the server who can RP PvP encounters and not have the problem of players running off or continuing PvP after being defeated. So any changes should take into concideration to not penalize those players who do not have issues with PvP.

But Mr Mago is quite correct in reguards to PvM. If you are dying often and need heal pots and raises more than once per spawn, that's the game telling you you're in an area to high for your group.

The old addage applies: If that hurts, don't do that.

The reason people are able to camp epic bosses so easily is due to heal potions, there is almost no reason to have a cleric in a party anymore.

This problem has gone a bit far too out of perspective. The idea of nerfing item consumption makes me a happy man. Seriously, I'll do a jig if it's done.

As far as nerfing actual spells? A great number of the spell changes on Amia were made as a nerf to another spell. Messing with one is practically asking for a domino effect of really peeved people, in turn causing the DM staff to go postal and find us all with a shotgun.

Item cooldown, and removal of raise dead scrolls?

Bring that stuff on. Making a player actually scared of dying (Since you are, in fact, bloody DYING) would be a treat in itself.

So. Basic idea of this nine page discussion: mess with those items all you want. Just don't get on the DM's about spell changes, because you're gonna open up a wasp's nest that you don't wanna mess with. Go open another thread of discussion if you wanna go down that hairy road.

Even if there's a cooldown on pots, I don't think there should be in spells. The spells don't come in an unlimited quantity.

Yurell wrote:

Even if there's a cooldown on pots, I don't think there should be in spells. The spells don't come in an unlimited quantity.

Exactly what me and Davis114 said. So, I completely agree.

I don't want to raise the power level of clerics.

They won't be hurting from a cooldown on their heal spells.

I try to remember that people, a Raise Dead /doesn't/ repair the body. Missing a finger? Still gone. Head lopped off? You need a ressurection if the head is missing. Otherwise you better have a good sewing kit to put it back on in place first.

Raise Dead PnP wrote:

While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.

I have, more recently, dragged a corpse back to Salandra's temple to get it a proper raise because my cleric was too weak at the time to do more than a raise dead. Said body was headless.

If you remember your limits, Raise dead has plenty of reason to be scary.

Endpoint: I don't see much use to all the discussion of forcing limits on raise dead and raise spells and ect tah ect.

If you want to do the RP, then RP it. I catagorize this as one of those "be the change you want to see" situations. That, and I don't want to get into the debates.

Torzeng wrote:

I try to remember that people, a Raise Dead /doesn't/ repair the body. Missing a finger? Still gone. Head lopped off? You need a ressurection if the head is missing. Otherwise you better have a good sewing kit to put it back on in place first.

Raise Dead PnP wrote:

While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.

That one is already in Amia's rules, to my knowledge.

But whenever a decapitation or similar is done to prevent people from raising dead people in the middle of a pvp frenzy, more often than not it's ignored.

Gravemaskin wrote:

But whenever a decapitation or similar is done to prevent people from raising dead people in the middle of a pvp frenzy, more often than not it's ignored.

Hence, a function on the PvP widget, like the one I described. A full round action to use to widget can be emoted as *beheads* etc etc.

You know, another idea. Why not just make Raise Dead not work after a PvP kill? Raise scroll will still work for PvM when you're in a party hunting(I don't see the point in making that aspect any harder). However, if you get killed in PvP, automatically have Raise Dead not work on the person for 5-10 minutes. Let them still be able to be raised by the PvP widget, so if two people are "sparring" they can emote that just fine. But if it's a "real" fight, anyone that gets killed by another PC can only be raised by Ressurection in the first 5-10 minutes of their death. After that, assummed that the killer has moved on, and allow people who come across the body to raise with a scroll.

Mortality and You.

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