The god doesn't have to come down from the heavens and tell him/her, all it takes is the prayer to the one god and you get your fresh spells. That, that is how your character would know and say "oh, so it's ____ that gives me them, not ___". It would make plenty of sense to keep praying to other gods, even equally, if the cleric found out who gave him his spells. I'm sure certain people might stop spraying to others because of that, but not all. Some people don't worship just because the god gives them powers. Hell, I dare say that if you're only worship for powers, you're a false believer. True faith, in my opinion, should be beyond that. It's a kinship, a bond.
Not quite so clear-cut, actually. I know of at least a few cases where some gods have masqueraded as others. Shar has done this with Ibrandul (who she killed during the Time of Troubles), and I think Cyric's done it with Leira, the defunct goddess of lies and illusions.
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Yeah, that's true. But that part involves deception from the god. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt, for example, that Sheela Peryroyl would mask herself as Silvanus to Willow to steal prayers from him and take Willow's worship. The deception from a god is kind of a unique case that has only happened a handful of times, that FR books have told us anyway. But I suppose it would depend on the type of god your worshiping as I'm almost certain these cases have been unique to evil gods.
Edit: Actually, never mind. Selune, Chauntea, Sune, among others kinda did it. But they pretended to be whole other gods, not one that lives or is dead. That all happens in 4e though.
The Barrens of Doom and Despair. Coincidentally, the home of Bane as well, I think.
As for LE clerics of Siamorphe, probably to the House of the Triad. Wierd, I know. But dead followers of deities generally end up in the deity's realm as petitioners. It's one of the reasons I don't care much for FR's cosmology.
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The Barrens of Doom and Despair. Coincidentally, the home of Bane as well, I think.
As for LE clerics of Siamorphe, probably to the House of the Triad. Wierd, I know. But dead followers of deities generally end up in the deity's realm as petitioners. It's one of the reasons I don't care much for FR's cosmology.
Whoa. Weird.
I guess the fact that knowledge of the planes and afterlife is somewhat accessible makes me wonder why anybody but the most depraved decides to truly follow evil deities.
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bluntpencil2001 wrote:
Gers wrote:
bluntpencil2001 wrote:
Where do Paladins of Hoar go when they die?
The Barrens of Doom and Despair. Coincidentally, the home of Bane as well, I think.
As for LE clerics of Siamorphe, probably to the House of the Triad. Wierd, I know. But dead followers of deities generally end up in the deity's realm as petitioners. It's one of the reasons I don't care much for FR's cosmology.
Whoa. Weird.
I guess the fact that knowledge of the planes and afterlife is somewhat accessible makes me wonder why anybody but the most depraved decides to truly follow evil deities.
Convenience. Fear. Worldly power. Whatever floats your boat, really. There're hundreds of ways anyone can come to worship any deity.
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The Barrens of Doom and Despair. Coincidentally, the home of Bane as well, I think.
As for LE clerics of Siamorphe, probably to the House of the Triad. Wierd, I know. But dead followers of deities generally end up in the deity's realm as petitioners. It's one of the reasons I don't care much for FR's cosmology.
Whoa. Weird.
I guess the fact that knowledge of the planes and afterlife is somewhat accessible makes me wonder why anybody but the most depraved decides to truly follow evil deities.
Convenience. Fear. Worldly power. Whatever floats your boat, really. There're hundreds of ways anyone can come to worship any deity.
Yeah but when eternal damnation in return is basically known to be a fact, it makes you wonder, doesn't it? Wouldn't you fear damnation more than martyrdom in Ilmater's name, for instance?
When one follows an evil deity, I'd think the followers' idea of heaven or perfection would come close to the deity's. Take Bane for example. His followers strive for a tightly regimented, super-ordered world under the iron hand of Bane's rule. Even the slightest failure or misstep should potentially carry harsh penalties, in their mindset. Thus, such a place *would* be paradise to them, because they value order and control over everything else.
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When one follows an evil deity, I'd think the followers' idea of heaven or perfection would come close to the deity's. Take Bane for example. His followers strive for a tightly regimented, super-ordered world under the iron hand of Bane's rule. Even the slightest failure or misstep should potentially carry harsh penalties, in their mindset. Thus, such a place *would* be paradise to them, because they value order and control over everything else.
Sounds pretty insane though, right?
And why would they, in their right mind, want this more than the order promoted by Tyr or Helm?
Who but the most insane would believe in Cyric, for instance?
I'll probably just put it down as an eccentricity of the setting.
Cyricists are monotheists, and believe all the other gods are false. The implication there is that they don't fully understand what's going to happen to them when they die and that the Supreme Throne is a pretty crappy place to be, but instead think of it to be paradise, a reward for following the One True God, Cyric.
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Cyricists are monotheists, and believe all the other gods are false. The implication there is that they don't fully understand what's going to happen to them when they die and that the Supreme Throne is a pretty crappy place to be, but instead think of it to be paradise, a reward for following the One True God, Cyric.
What's the source of Cyricists being monotheists? I haven't heard of such, and it seems unlikely for all but a few of the craziest ones.
To still return to the praying of multiple deities, above: in most cases, I would tend to agree with GuNz. But there are some examples where I wouldn't be so sure.
Perhaps there was a cleric who worshiped Silvanus and Chauntea together, as a divine couple, the tension and completeness between two sides of nature. Her rituals might not involve specified prayers to one god or the other. After she's performed her worship and goes to bed, she doesn't necessarily know who gives her the spells that pop into her mind in the morning. (And there's no pressing OOC reason to assume they must only come from one or the other.) Similarly, there could very well be a primitive shaman who worshiped the elements, as personified by Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth and Istisha. There's no reason to assume he must pick one of these spirits or powers as a "patron deity" specifically, IMO. The same could be said of other pairings, such as Oghma and Deneir/Milil, Ilmater and Salandra, Tyr and Torm, Mielikki and Lurue/Gwaeron (whose servants work within the church of Mielikki anyhow), maybe even Mystra and Azuth.
Then there's the matter of Angharradh. Some consider her three seperate deities, some consider her one. What she actually is, is unclear. Her worship is not so seperate from the individual worship of Sehanine, Hanali and Aerdrie. The Adama belief of Durpari folk is another example of pantheism, where certain key gods represent the most important aspects of the world spirit.
So I would say it's possible to worship several gods and not have a crystal clear idea of the mechanism that grants you your spells. It's not as if you say your prayer, and the moment you mention your god's name the spells pop into your head. This kind of apparent "dual-patronage" would require a high level of agreement and co-operation between the deities, I reckon, and would probably not work in situations like Lathander/Selûne. (The former is too narcissist to share his clergy anyhow, I think.)
It wouldn't be the norm, and it might very well be that there's actually just one patron deity giving you the spells. But that's OOC knowledge more than anything, and I can see certain character concepts operating well under such a belief. My spirit shaman (druid) had no acknowledged patron deity either, he worshiped the Elemental Lords and animalistic spirits.
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I thought the spells became available immediately after praying, and since you pray to different deities at different times of the day, wouldn't that give you a strong indication?
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I thought the spells became available immediately after praying, and since you pray to different deities at different times of the day, wouldn't that give you a strong indication?
The former is a game-rule technicality. Besides, I assume you have to rest for eight hours first: so if you pray before rest, they come to you in the morning. If you pray after rest, they come to you immediately. I am not sure, but don't read too much into D&D rules.
But more important than that: you say "since you pray to different deities at different times of the day." What's to say you have to? My example assumed you worshiped your "patrons" in joint ritual. That's how real religions involving divine couples usually work. The rites reenact the divine drama between these two deities, perhaps. Maybe your prayer is aimed at both gods at once, since your faith is based on the ideology that the two have in common (rather than what seperates them). Perhaps you do worship several times a day; if you hold the gods in equal value and further both their goals, what's to say your "actual" patron (if there is one; I'm not convinced there has to be) doesn't also give you spells for praying to the other god? This only works as long as the gods' interests are closely intertwined and they're not particularly jealous in nature. The most likely case is when it's a matter of worshiping a greater deity and its servant. (Oghma -> Deneir/Milil, Ilmater -> Salandra, etc.)
All this could be true. It isn't necessarily so, but I wouldn't say there's very convincing reasons to absolutely rule it out, either. If you want to play a shaman with beasts and elemental lords as patrons, be my guest.
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What's the source of Cyricists being monotheists? I haven't heard of such, and it seems unlikely for all but a few of the craziest ones.
Dogma of Cyric wrote:
Battle against clergy of other faiths, for they are false prophets and forces who oppose the One True Way [...] only Cyric is the true authority and all other authority must be subverted.
I always thought the 'false prophets' were not only the clergy of other faiths, but the faiths themselves. Whereas other faiths don't openly discourage paying homage to other deities, Cyric does, decrying their faiths as false and that he is the supreme authority.
The holy book of Cyric, the Cyrinishad, also claims he is the one true god. Cyric read it and believed in his own origin myth. In other words, he refused to recognize the other deities as being his equals, at least until he was eventually set straight by the other deities in his trial.
IMO, part of what makes Cyricists seem so insane to the followers of other Forgotten Realms deities is the fact they're monotheists and believe their god is the one true god, and all others are fakes or false.
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That's not monotheism, though. That's more like henotheism or, at most, monolatry. They probably don't disbelieve the existance and power of other gods; that would be folly. It may have been the case at some point in history, but Cyric's lies were revealed.
Terms like "false prophets" and "false gods" seem more like angry rhetorics than actual theological claims. They're careful not to honor other gods, but that alone implies that they do believe in their existance and power. But you seem to be correct in that they only worship Cyric. (The dedicated clergy, at least. Laity probably appease all sorts of gods in everyday life.)
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I would imagine it's a given that almost every cleric on Toril is a practicing polytheist. That's the norm, it is to be expected. I suppose the level of special reverence given to your patron varies based on faith, culture and personality. I doubt all too many clerics see their god as somehow superior to others, but more like the right one for them.
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IronAngel wrote:
Similarly, there could very well be a primitive shaman who worshiped the elements, as personified by Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth and Istisha. There's no reason to assume he must pick one of these spirits or powers as a "patron deity" specifically, IMO.
This, for me at least, is the reason why I still think druids should be able to cast in FR without a "patron" deity. You know, that they could actually "worship" nature and the prayers be answered as spells given from the deity that represents the aspect of Nature they were praising at the moment. A druid takes time to meditate on trees, Silvanus empowers him with plant spells. He thinks about the meaninf of sewing and reaping, Chautea. He considers and meditates on the elements in general, Akadi, Ishtia, Grumbar, or Kossuth relay to him.
Having to say that a druid must have a patron to use spells kind of makes them seem like specialized clerics with nature-flavored spells, kinda. Buuut.. it's not that big a deal, in the end I guess. I've not seen many druids make a big deal of it one way or another.
Well, druids are specialized priests. They are part of their patron deity's clergy, as well as a druidic circle. I agree with you that it's stupid, and I wouldn't say it's impossible to receive spells from several deities, or more likely, divine spirits and local demigods in some exceptional cases. Mostly in the case of spirit shamans and such. Druids on Evermeet probably also get spells from Rillifane as well as the animal gods/spirits that hold dominion there. The same spirits are found elsewhere, too, but they're not mentioned in a lot of material. I think the idea is that there are a lot of local divine heroes and demigods all around Faerûn, in addition to those presented in the actual deity books. The base idea that all spells come from a divine source as Tormak said, though.
That "Druids can worship nature and get spells from Chauntea" bit seems to actually be Jen/Ravena unlore. Nobody's been able to find any reference to it in any FR material so far.
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I only included it because it seemed to make sense. Chauntea *is* "Nature"/The Earthmother in the way most people refer to when they say "worship Nature".
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IronAngel wrote:
Well, druids are specialized priests. They are part of their patron deity's clergy, as well as a druidic circle. I agree with you that it's stupid, and I wouldn't say it's impossible to receive spells from several deities, or more likely, divine spirits and local demigods in some exceptional cases. Mostly in the case of spirit shamans and such. Druids on Evermeet probably also get spells from Rillifane as well as the animal gods/spirits that hold dominion there. The same spirits are found elsewhere, too, but they're not mentioned in a lot of material. I think the idea is that there are a lot of local divine heroes and demigods all around Faerûn, in addition to those presented in the actual deity books. The base idea that all spells come from a divine source as Tormak said, though.
Effectively then, Iron, we're saying only Nature deities grant druid spells, yes? Otherwise, they're simply specialized spells coming from any deity... pretty much making them hippie-clerics, in some respect.
In the case nature spells only come from Nature deities, well, do they pray for their spells the same way clerics do then? As in, they eschew the god and dogma about nature, rather than actual nature. Or is it the inverse, and as followers of the nature god, they are require to worship nature then their patron gives them spells for it. In the latter case, it seems just as easy to say they worship Nature's aspects, and may not know from whence their spells truly come. For that matter, would a druid who worships "Nature" as Tormak said even have to know it's really Chauntea that gives him his spells?
Druid spells only come from nature deities, yes. (Though personally, I include certain nature-like deities in the dubious official lists.) And yes, they seem to get them in the same way clerics do: by worshiping the deity and furthering its goals. The actual rituals may be different, of course. But they're not some pantheistic nature worshipers, they're considered priests of their god.
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I don't think it's impossible that a cleric/druid wouldn't know who gives them spells, just that it would be pretty common that they would know. It takes a special case for the cleric/druid not to know, imo. So yeah, I agree.
As for the Druid bit, yes, Druids are specialty priests. You can kinda sorta view them as specialty clerics. One thing about Druids though, and shaman for that matter, I think it's a hell of a lot more common for them not to know who gives them their spells. Simply because of their typical way of being. For a Druid or Shaman who worships nature, prays to some aspect of nature and/or protects, etc. etc., I think it's perfectly logical that they wouldn't know who gives them spells and some nature god just grants them their gifts of spells because they work toward their end. That said, ICly, they don't know, sure, but OOCly, you should. As in, your PC may not know, but you have a story about it and you as a player know exactly who gives him/her spells. I've suggested it to different people who didn't know they had to have a patron. I've seen them and other people do this on Amia and pull it off with flying colors.
One thing about the "if you worship nature, you worship Chauntea" thing though. I don't think it's so clear cut. Chauntea is as much nature as Silvanus is. She's the tame, he's the feral. If someone worshiped "nature" as it is, I think it's perfectly plausible that Silvanus might be the one behind their spells. That's not to say I would think it would be impossible for other, "lesser", nature gods to give them spells either. But being that Silvanus and Chauntea are the two head nature gods, I think they would be most common of all in these situations.
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That's pretty much what I was getting at. The fact that a druid could just wholeheartly worship Nature/elements and be granted spells from the gods.
Note, I'm not saying get the spells from "nature, ideals, ides, etc", just that he worships them, and the nature/elemental gods are the ones that actually accept the praise and grant the spells.
It's not an impossible idea (though it is absent in any Realmslore I've seen), but I think the main question is: why wouldn't they worship personified deities? It's not the same as some neo-paganism of today, where people just treat the world/nature as a pantheistic entity. In the Realms, everybody (relevant to this topic) knows that there's a god of wild nature and a goddess of fertility. They hear about the lesser nature deities and see their work all the time. Certainly, they might consider all those as parts of a whole and meaningless outside the context of an all-encompassing nature. But be that as it may, they know the supernatural qualities in nature come from gods and lesser divine entities. They are familiar with the concepts of Mielikki, Malar, Eldath, Lurue, Gwaeron, the Bear, the Eagle, and what have you. They may not know them all by name, but I'm pretty sure no (or extremely few) druids think it's an inpersonal "nature" that holds all these divine powers. Rather, it's a multitude of divine beings that are aspects of nature.
I would buy a druid owing no special allegiance to one nature god above others, worshiping them with different name or mere vague ideas, but I have a hard time understanding a pantheist/atheist druid who just worships nature, ignoring the very real, commonly known divine subjects in nature.
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Oh no, I didn't mention it, but I don't mean that they're atheist or refuse to worship or even acknowledge the known gods of nature. Just that they don't feel a particular bond with any specific one. Most of the ones that I've seen do this, worship Silvanus and his children, Chauntea and Nobanion. They just don't see one god in particular as the one they feel closest to.
Yeah, that seems reasonable. I think modern people sometimes have a hard time understanding shamanistic religions and such. It's not that people worship streams, rocks and groves. They worship the greater spirits that they believe to have dominion over such sites. They worship nature itself no more than modern world religions worship statues and altars. So I think there's a big difference between saying you worship all the gods of nature, and saying you don't worship the gods but nature itself. The latter seems like a misinterpretion.
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1. Dragons: At what age would a Dragon get out of it's Wyrmling stage and get into the stage of which it starts to resemble the "Bigger" Dragons in the game, not size-wise but appearance wise?
2. Familiars: How do Sorcerers gain familiars? Because in relation to the above question, I'd like to reskin my character's Pseudodragon (RPed as a Red Dragon) to a 30% size Red Dragon, but I still can't think of a solid storyline as to how he became able to have it as his familiar.
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.
wiki wrote:
In order to aquire a familiar, the prospective master must first locate the kind of creature desired. This can be as convenient a task as visiting a city and purchasing a suitable animal within an appropriate shop. Some more exotic familiars usually take more effort to locate. After locating the familiar, the master must arrange to keep the familiar nearby for the day-long ritual that binds the two together. Wise masters choose familiars that are friendly enough not to wander away, but sometimes the creature must be caged or otherwise restrained.
There are various rituals that bind familiars to spellcasters, ranging from a few gestures or chants to some drawings sketched on the floor around the pair – all repeated necessarily at intervals throughout the day. The ritual will fail if the intended familiar is hostile or unfriendly to the master, or has been charmed into amiability in any manner.
I remember in BG2 you had an actuall spell to summon a familiar.
Actually, there are -numerous- stages to a dragon's life:
Wyrmling Very Young Young Juvenile Young Adult Adult Mature Adult Old Very Old Ancient Wyrm Great Wyrm
As for how long it takes to go from one stage to the next, it would depend largely upon the type (or race) of the dragon in question. I don't have any of my source books with me right now, though, so I can't really delve much further into the question for you than that.
As for how a sorcerer gains their familiar, they do it in the same way wizards do. Through a spell called "Summon Familiar". It's a complex ritual, not just a *chant chant finger-waggle POOF* there you have it sort of spell. Again, no source books with me, but if someone can cite the spell from the PHB in here, that would be great.
EDIT: Heh, thanks hendrack. You're faster than I was with that, but it's what I was trying to look for.
Thanks for both replies, which stage would suit a sized 30% Red Dragon? Young sounds like it should be about the same size as the basic model, but very young sounds a bit too small.
Young would prolly be your best bet, as Juvenile - Young Adult is getting more toward the "teenage" years of the dragon's life, and would signify the dragon is approaching its full "adult" size. You know how that sort of thing goes.
Young would prolly be your best bet, as Juvenile - Young Adult is getting more toward the "teenage" years of the dragon's life, and would signify the dragon is approaching its full "adult" size. You know how that sort of thing goes.
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K.. So I got from here http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon that an Amethyst Dragon's breath weapon is a line of force.. How could this be done in NWN? Could it, even?
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For all dragons in the Monster Manual:
1.Wyrmling: 0-5
2. Very Young: 6-15
3. Young: 16-25
4. Juvenile: 26-50
5. Young Adult: 51-100
6. Adult: 101-200
7. Mature Adult: 201-400
8. Old: 401-600
9. Very Old: 601-800
10. Ancient: 801-1.000
11. Wyrm: 1.001-1.200
12. Great Wyrm: 1.201+
As for size, as big as a human is medium, which all Monster Manual dragons have attained (or have grown larger than) in the Wyrmling-Young category (e.g. Red Dragon and Gold Dragons wyrmlings are medium, while White Dragons aren't medium until they're Young).
Yaster Galer wrote:
1. Dragons: At what age would a Dragon get out of it's Wyrmling stage and get into the stage of which it starts to resemble the "Bigger" Dragons in the game, not size-wise but appearance wise?
That's what this post was for ... can I ask what type of dragon you were after so I can post more info?
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Last edited by Yurell on Wed, Nov 25 2009, 20:29 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yaster Galer wrote:
Khylaria wrote:
Young would prolly be your best bet, as Juvenile - Young Adult is getting more toward the "teenage" years of the dragon's life, and would signify the dragon is approaching its full "adult" size. You know how that sort of thing goes.
Young vs Very Young, which does this represent:
For red dragons, they hatch that large (i.e. a medium-sized creature). That's their 0-5 year old Wyrmling category.
Edit: Assuming that I'm seeing it properly and that's not a Small creature. If it's as big as a halfling, RDs are never that small.
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Last edited by Yurell on Wed, Nov 25 2009, 21:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I always thought the 'false prophets' were not only the clergy of other faiths, but the faiths themselves. Whereas other faiths don't openly discourage paying homage to other deities, Cyric does, decrying their faiths as false and that he is the supreme authority.
The holy book of Cyric, the Cyrinishad, also claims he is the one true god. Cyric read it and believed in his own origin myth. In other words, he refused to recognize the other deities as being his equals, at least until he was eventually set straight by the other deities in his trial.
IMO, part of what makes Cyricists seem so insane to the followers of other Forgotten Realms deities is the fact they're monotheists and believe their god is the one true god, and all others are fakes or false.
------ SPOILER ALERT--------
Just spotted this and wanted to add something since I've had a strong interest in Cyric.
Cyric himself is cured from the lies spun by the Cyrinishad. For a time he did actually belive that all other divine beigns including Ao himself was mere puppets dancing to his tune and his tune alone. Eventually he is cured by Malik, the later chosen, since he read from the True Life of Cyric.
After that Cyric realises the shocking truth that he is not supreme in his power and he gotta deal with everyone else.
Also why would one offer a prayer to a god like Cyric? Well just to take out a few examples.
In the book a previous follower of Lira was dependent on the goddess to supply some kind of illusion to look younger and more pretty than he actually was. Similarly such prayers would go to Cyric as he is now the master of illusion.
Following those lines practically any who might need a little "tip" of the scales through some less hourable mean, Cyric is also ideal. He could also be offered praises if you want say your noble family to rise in the ranks by making the others fall.
At the bottom line you'll also find the many assassins and cut-throats who simply wish to live to see another day and prays to Cyric for both protection and help in their trade.
In the afterlife I belive they are always promised to be allowed to server their god with some new powers granted in his realm.
Though most of this will always remain speculation. Few if any have ever travelled to the supreme throne and returned alive so who would know?
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Young would prolly be your best bet, as Juvenile - Young Adult is getting more toward the "teenage" years of the dragon's life, and would signify the dragon is approaching its full "adult" size. You know how that sort of thing goes.
Young vs Very Young, which does this represent:
For red dragons, they hatch that large (i.e. a medium-sized creature). That's their 0-5 year old Wyrmling category.
Edit: Assuming that I'm seeing it properly and that's not a Small creature. If it's as big as a halfling, RDs are never that small.
That's a human next to it, and yeah, it does look like a halfling at first glance. May up the scale to 40% if it'll make it look better fitting with the lore.
K.. So I got from here http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon that an Amethyst Dragon's breath weapon is a line of force.. How could this be done in NWN? Could it, even?
Force damage in represented in NWN as magic damage. No breath does this. I guess you could possibly DC request a custom dragon breath that does magic damage.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
TormakSaber wrote:
jafman30 wrote:
K.. So I got from here http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon that an Amethyst Dragon's breath weapon is a line of force.. How could this be done in NWN? Could it, even?
Force damage in represented in NWN as magic damage. No breath does this. I guess you could possibly DC request a custom dragon breath that does magic damage.
As far as VFX, I've two suggestions. One is the "Slow" dragonbreath vfx that looks purple. The other is the Sonic breath; it's just a wave of white cloudish energy, IIRC. Imagine Cone of Cold but white.
Joined: 20 Apr 2008 Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
Ah, right Tormak. It's filed under Cone, Sonic, don't know why I was thinking it was a breath.
Just for my own clarification, what exactly is the difference between Force energy and Sonic in the Realms? I thought sonic was pretty much the concussion of "molecules"(IC never known of course) in the air while force is... what exactly?
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