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TormakSaber wrote:

I hadn't considered that before, but yes, each Devastatig Critical feat is its own separate feat. You could parse it out to specifically two handed weapons only if you wanted, for example, I bet, with some fancy letoscript. Or simply elimunate scimi/kukri/rapier.

That just seems a little too harsh, to my tastes. I mean, yes, every other melee character that comes by having dev in one of these weapons is a bit of an annoyance, but it doesn't demand we take them out completely. Not only would that piss the few people that actually RP good reasons for choosing such weapons, but it also leaves the gaping wound in IC events as "How did we ever do it before? And where did all the scimitars, rapiers, and kukris go?".

If anything, if we could somehow modify the critical rolls, -that- would be golden. I really don't care to do anything to dev, but if we do, let's at least make it coherent and not a complete arsepull. If we modify the scripts for the feats for kukri/rapier/scimitar wouldn't that be enough? As in allow the feats only to increase the threat range to that of any other sword?

If we could somehow do that, people would finally feel like taking the other swords just legitimately as any other. There would really be no need for an explanation IC as well, as crits with the three weapons would still happen, they'd still have dev, and the "threat range" of weapons being a mostly OoC concept. It's just assumed people in the past with these weapons were just more "lucky" than they are now, OoCly. It's also completely fair to say "The original Threat Range of these weapons only apply when used in they way they were designed, dexterily. When used with the brute strength put behind every other sword, their range can only increase to that of every other sword."

As well, if it would be possible to mod the scripts for the threat range of these weapons to work normally if a character had above XX Dex and/or weapon finese, that would be great too. Because it wouldn't really penalize those few, proud, duelists who may have been using such weapons with their original intent.

Unless I'm mistaken, the crit ranges are hardcoded in, meaning that it would take a HAK to change the range and therefore is not going to be happening on Amia in the foreseeable future.

I'm also 99% sure that most of the people with IC reasons for using rapiers/scimitars/kukris for their Dev Crit character retro-engineered the reason. Starting with the build and then coming up with the reason for the weapon and not vice versa. This is not saying that it's the case for everyone, but I'm sure that it's the case for the majority.

Example: My Dev'er is a drow. Drow are elves. Elves tend to like the lighter weapons. Therefore, my drow uses a rapier.

This isn't the case, though. I didn't want to go cheese and choose for my drowsie Dev'er to use a bastard sword. I just thought the idea of a little drow chick with a huge freakin' sword was just too cool to not do.

If the ability to choose Dev Crit: Rapier or whatever is removed, then we'll see those weapons revert back to use by dualists and all the Dev'ers would start going for more "suitable" Dev Crit weapons. Attach the recent free rebuild announcement to this and I don't see a single problem with doing it at all.

But still remains the problem of "How did it happen before". You can't just make a complete change by having dev pulled from 3 weapons in the game, and just expect everyone to go "quietly into that dark night" on this one.

I'd be more apt to see dev stay completely the same before we go putting the reasoning "these weapons can't dev at all just because we say so" into the mix. I mean, what then becomes of dagger devs? And light hammers, short swords, and for Tempus' sake, whips? If you're going to "reason" that certain weapons can't give dev, then you may as well reason those out. That opens up a whole can of worms with "Well we're epic enough to defy evey other law of RL physics, but not enough to kill with one hit with a scimitar?". It's just way too messy and crude a solution, in my book. It's like we have a paper cut on our pinky finger and we don't have any band-aids, but since we have a butcher knife and a blow torch, we cut off our arm and cauterize the wound to stop the bleeding.

If we can't modify dev for scimitar, rapier, and kukri without completely pulling it out from under them, then I say we leave well enough alone.

ainjyll wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, the crit ranges are hardcoded in, meaning that it would take a HAK to change the range and therefore is not going to be happening on Amia in the foreseeable future.

I'm also 99% sure that most of the people with IC reasons for using rapiers/scimitars/kukris for their Dev Crit character retro-engineered the reason. Starting with the build and then coming up with the reason for the weapon and not vice versa. This is not saying that it's the case for everyone, but I'm sure that it's the case for the majority.

Example: My Dev'er is a drow. Drow are elves. Elves tend to like the lighter weapons. Therefore, my drow uses a rapier.

I posted about it already (http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=710375#710375), not that people cares.

Either way, I will drop the rapier when I have enough DCs to buy a Monkey Grip widget.

I did not use it for the crit range, but because I needed some AC and because it is similar to the weapon my PC used to wield, the spear.

It is a temporary fix. *shrugs*

25/4/1 will replace sorc/bg's

I'll let you guess. But in any event.. as you all have shifted the topic to devestating critical, if you do manage to fix that, you won't even need to nerf sorc/bg's as there are different alternatives that people would play since they don't need to gear/level to fight one feat

Dark Immolation wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I hadn't considered that before, but yes, each Devastatig Critical feat is its own separate feat. You could parse it out to specifically two handed weapons only if you wanted, for example, I bet, with some fancy letoscript. Or simply elimunate scimi/kukri/rapier.

That just seems a little too harsh, to my tastes. I mean, yes, every other melee character that comes by having dev in one of these weapons is a bit of an annoyance, but it doesn't demand we take them out completely. Not only would that piss the few people that actually RP good reasons for choosing such weapons, but it also leaves the gaping wound in IC events as "How did we ever do it before? And where did all the scimitars, rapiers, and kukris go?".

Removing the weapon seems too harsh o me also, but I do like the idea of removing dev for specific weapons.

It can go away, the same way that RDD fire immunity went, mathematicly without the need for feat changing, or haks. I did not think outside the box before for this but I just realized it can be done.

If we work on the idea Dev crit is Okay for all weapons but those three due to their broad range this range can be controlled by controlling 'keen weapon' on them.

This would be 'fair' without removing the dev crit for the folks that have chosen these weapons.

The math for Threat range takes into account that a roll of 20 is part of the threat range, or that 20 uses up 1 of the numbers of the range.

Keen - Doubled Range
Improved Crit - Double range
Keen + Improved Crit - Triple Range
Ki Crit, flat +2 to range after other bonuses

Scimitar 18-20 Thats 3, including 20 3x3 = 9 + 2. = 11. Including 20 in the roll thats 10-20.

Longsword 19-20 2 difference including 20, 2x3 +2 = 8 or
13-20

20 counts as 1. 1x3 +2 = 5 or 16-20 roll = crit

So if we go simply on removing keen from the weapons considered 'overpowered'

Scimitar = 18-20. 3 Numerals, Imp Crit + Ki Crit = 3x2 +2 or 8 which is threat of 13-20.

This balances 18-20 weapons on par with other 1h weapons. Requires no fiddling with dev crit as feat so no hard feelings.

Modify existing weapons in inventory that should not have keen on them via script on entry mirror.
Remove Keen for these weapons from being mythalable via MCS.
Modify loot pallate drops for these weapons that are keen.
Modify keen weapon/bloodthirst spell to not keen Kukuris/Scimitars/Rapiers.

I do not know what the limits of scripting are on entry as far as item management goes. But it seems controllable for some items to a degree from what I have seen.

I do have another idea if this one fails, which could work with feat removal and balancing, for these, but I find this method to be superior. but I do not know if this scripting completely possible. If it is, it is some database work, and some hard feelings about people that bought certain types of mythals, but ultimately a better balance. You give up some base bonus damage, and end up with a weapon with an extra MC power slot because it does not 'need' keen.

I think these can nerf Dev Crit without changing the feat:
1. Increase Fort save of mobs or make more of them immune to Dev Crit. (nerf PvM)
2. Nerf healing potions. This will cause more people to abandon Dev Crit for pure damage output. (nerf PvP)

If that is possible that's a good idea. Make the threat range back down to something not so insane, for dev crit.

I can approve of Dwagin's idea. With just Ki Critical and Improved Critical, the threat range for those three weapons become 13-20- the same as other swords with the three feats Imp Critical, Ki critical, and Keen. And' it's not too horrible a blow to dexers. They give up a little range, but still get the same crit range as other swords for fewer feats/slots/spells.

The problem now becomes what of TS weapons. Perhaps make TS rapiers, kukris, and scimitars +5 ab +1d8(or 10) massive critical. I think that may make up adequately.

And those who just cast keen onto their weapons?

@ Yurell
Dwaggy's suggestion already covered that. By the end of her post.

By the way, Dwaggy, I think preventing Keen from being cast in one of those weapons is possible.

I remember that Thayan Weapons could not be enspelled. Hopefully, the script used back then, can be used in this case too.

I still prefer the 'remove dev crit for these weapons' idea to be honest.

khchen wrote:

I think these can nerf Dev Crit without changing the feat:
1. Increase Fort save of mobs or make more of them immune to Dev Crit. (nerf PvM)
2. Nerf healing potions. This will cause more people to abandon Dev Crit for pure damage output. (nerf PvP)

Option 1 - dev crit is not the only ability to use fortitude. You are nerfing those people whose abilities don't go off three times a round ad infinitum far more.

Option 2 - That just makes it more difficult for meleers in PvM.

Yurell wrote:

I still prefer the 'remove dev crit for these weapons' idea to be honest.

khchen wrote:

I think these can nerf Dev Crit without changing the feat:
1. Increase Fort save of mobs or make more of them immune to Dev Crit. (nerf PvM)
2. Nerf healing potions. This will cause more people to abandon Dev Crit for pure damage output. (nerf PvP)

Option 1 - dev crit is not the only ability to use fortitude. You are nerfing those people whose abilities don't go off three times a round ad infinitum far more.

Option 2 - That just makes it more difficult for meleers in PvM.

There's no reason to nerf dev on these weapons when we can make it so their crit range is the same as any other sword. You understand that's the main problem, right? That they can be made to crit on half of all hits. Taking keen away from them would essientially make them no more efficent than longswords at dev, which is just fine.

We're not off to nerf dev here, just a particular instance one 3 weapons where it is slightly out of wack.

Besides, taking dev away form the weapons completely has absolutely no explanation IC. I refuse to beleive that we are supposed to beleive that devs with these weapons never happened in the past, or that some god of war came down and made certain weapons and warriors incapable of certain damage. Just flat otu not an option.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I still prefer the 'remove dev crit for these weapons' idea to be honest.

khchen wrote:

I think these can nerf Dev Crit without changing the feat:
1. Increase Fort save of mobs or make more of them immune to Dev Crit. (nerf PvM)
2. Nerf healing potions. This will cause more people to abandon Dev Crit for pure damage output. (nerf PvP)

Option 1 - dev crit is not the only ability to use fortitude. You are nerfing those people whose abilities don't go off three times a round ad infinitum far more.

Option 2 - That just makes it more difficult for meleers in PvM.

There's no reason to nerf dev on these weapons when we can make it so their crit range is the same as any other sword. You understand that's the main problem, right? That they can be made to crit on half of all hits. Taking keen away from them would essientially make them no more efficent than longswords at dev, which is just fine.

We're not off to nerf dev here, just a particular instance one 3 weapons where it is slightly out of wack.

Besides, taking dev away form the weapons completely has absolutely no explanation IC. I refuse to beleive that we are supposed to beleive that devs with these weapons never happened in the past, or that some god of war came down and made certain weapons and warriors incapable of certain damage. Just flat otu not an option.

So nerf everyone who doesn't have dev crit is the way to go to fix the feat?

Yurell, I think you are missing the point, or not quite understanding it.

I just am not going to attempt to explain because I know from experience that the more I try to explain, the more I confuse.

I am sure the others can help me, and you, here. >.<

On what concerns Dev Crit, if the real problem is only the crit range of some weapons, then of course that doing something about those weapons is the best choice.

The problem is not Dev Crit in itself, but the fact that people are using it in conjunction with weapons with high crit range that, as Dwaggy pointed on her post, have a lot more chances of scoring a hit than any other weapon.

When it comes to your comment of "one cannot resist countless times no matter their fortitude", this just sounds silly. It is not only fortitude, it is also AC. And, more importantly, it is a matter of dice deciding.

For instance, when Auron was a spearman and badly built, he could damage, with a crit around 150. But since his AB was too low, he would have more misses than hits and even his criticals would be harder to come through due to his low AB.

Not everyone that has Dev Crit has high AB and even if they have high AB, oftentimes the players would have high AC. The only things I could crit back then and even now, were monsters. Not ever did I manage to crit a PC.

BlackDahlya wrote:

When it comes to your comment of "one cannot resist countless times no matter their fortitude", this just sounds silly. It is not only fortitude, it is also AC. And, more importantly, it is a matter of dice deciding.

That was PvM. IMO dev crit should have a damage threshold before going off. Since that can't be introduced, removing it on some weapons and leaving it for the larger two-handed ones make up for the fact those weapons can't have shields.

Also removing keen, while it grts those with dev crit, also nerfs those who don't have dev crit.

Yurell wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

When it comes to your comment of "one cannot resist countless times no matter their fortitude", this just sounds silly. It is not only fortitude, it is also AC. And, more importantly, it is a matter of dice deciding.

That was PvM. IMO dev crit should have a damage threshold before going off. Since that can't be introduced, removing it on some weapons and leaving it for the larger two-handed ones make up for the fact those weapons can't have shields.

Also removing keen, while it grts those with dev crit, also nerfs those who don't have dev crit.

Devastating Critical is a character feat, not a weapon feat. It just means the character can deliever more accurate crits because he is particularly skilled with a specific weapon. To get Dev Crit, you need to have focus in a Melee Weapon, after all.

So, in order to decrease the rate at which a character can deliever critical hits thus having more chances at delievering devastating critical blows, you need to find a way to diminish the critical range of a weapon.

Which is what is being proposed by Dwaggy, DI and many others.

EDIT: I guess that it is akin to saying that he can deliever devastating criticals because of his own skill, not because the kind of weapon allows/makes it easier for him to deliever such.

Perhaps make dev crit only work on a crit roll of a 20, then you wouldnt need to monkey with the crit ranges of anything, it would also make it just as good for that weapon that only crits on 20s, as it is for a weapon that can crit on a 10-20.

Another option is to make it only able to fire off once per round, though, vs epic dodge that might make issues if you say crit your first blow and its epic dodged then your other attacks cant dev *shrug*

I like my first idea.

khchen wrote:

I think these can nerf Dev Crit without changing the feat:
1. Increase Fort save of mobs or make more of them immune to Dev Crit. (nerf PvM)
2. Nerf healing potions. This will cause more people to abandon Dev Crit for pure damage output. (nerf PvP)

1. Has been done already, actually. Keep in mind you can take their fort saves to 500, they'll still die 1/20th of the time you crit them. If you crit them half the time you swing, that chance goes up substantially per round.

2. Has been talked about, likely won't occur, if it does it will not be for those reasons though. Dev crit is a non-issue for hardcore pvp'ers, you do always have the random roll of 1. Which if half of the swings are going to trigger that roll, compared to 1/3rd, there's something clearly wrong mathmatically, which is what some people believe should be addressed because of the heavy imbalance of power.

Xenos wrote:

Perhaps make dev crit only work on a crit roll of a 20, then you wouldnt need to monkey with the crit ranges of anything, it would also make it just as good for that weapon that only crits on 20s, as it is for a weapon that can crit on a 10-20.

Another option is to make it only able to fire off once per round, though, vs epic dodge that might make issues if you say crit your first blow and its epic dodged then your other attacks cant dev *shrug*

I like my first idea.

Can't be done to my knowledge without fancy 'hak'ery.

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

maglorine wrote:

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

Get a free transfer to the new weapon of choice would be the fair way.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

maglorine wrote:

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

Get a free transfer to the new weapon of choice would be the fair way.

And a free rebuild to the person getting their entire class screwed over.

Mimiron wrote:

And a free rebuild to the person getting their entire class screwed over.

Check out this thread: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=43290.

I believe it solves your problem.

Mimiron wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

maglorine wrote:

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

Get a free transfer to the new weapon of choice would be the fair way.

And a free rebuild to the person getting their entire class screwed over.

We already solved the "problem" of free rebuilds, remember?

And I don't buy taking away keen from said weapons screws your whole class over. Not in the least. You still get bonus to attack, etc, etc. If there's a player that would throw a whole build away because they lost keen, then they'd like have thrown it away if we changed anything else in the least. If your build is solely based on scimitar/kukri/rapier letting you crit more often going toe to toe with any other build...(which sadly seems the case for most who specialize in said weapons)... then that's just the one basket you chose to put all your eggs in. Sorry.

Again, it's not that big of a nerf. They'd still get the crit/dev range of every other sword(longsword, B.sword, shortsword, katana)... while using less mythal slots no less. As well, I've already suggested we exchange 1d10 massive critical for keen on these weapons. And if they already have it, well that will be handled on a case by case basis, I suppose.

The problem isn't Dev Crit in regards to PvM. The mobs are already balanced to take Dev Crit into account.

The gripe people are having with Dev Crit is in regards to PvP.

Dwagin's idea would work, too. Remove keen from the weapons in question and make it so they can't have keen cast on them.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

maglorine wrote:

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

Get a free transfer to the new weapon of choice would be the fair way.

Why? Your charcter is still a WM of X weapon. IT's purely OOC drive to rebuild to be the next hottest thing... I see no IC there.

TormakSaber wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

maglorine wrote:

What about those pc's with Dev Crit who spent their hard earned DC's on custom made Keen weapons of those types?

Just goes poof?

Get a free transfer to the new weapon of choice would be the fair way.

Why? Your charcter is still a WM of X weapon. IT's purely OOC drive to rebuild to be the next hottest thing... I see no IC there.

Ic reason would and could be as simple as I use to be really good in this weapon and now even a person with a club is better then me maybe I should use a new weapon and start practicing in it.

Your example is extreme and untrue for the most part, and I doubt a master of a weapon for years on end would suddenly abandon it. Any rP you do to rebuild is inevitably forced. Just like all the 'rp' will be for the people building out of paladin and BG.

hehe I would still more then likely keep my weapon master to a scimmy just you know get rid of a useless epic feat that wouldn't work for me any more

I prefer the widget idea over "only 2 handers get dev" but that's me.

Bias note: I am a one hander WM.

So instead of legitly having Dev Crit trigger maybe 2-3 times a round with 13-20 range, they'd take a whole round to make -one- attempt at the roll?

I surely hope you'dup the DC in that case, as well as make it unlimited uses for said widget, Tormak.

As opposed to the mage who has maybe 9 shots at it all day at the same DC? or Finger of Deaththat requires him to be in melee at a lower DC? And in both cases both can be stopped by death magic immunity? Or in Implosion, can stil be interrupted?

Dev is the broken one here in regards to simple how often it is capable of outputting a save vs death. It is not a balance point by ANY MEANS.

See: Smite Good/Smite Evil, Quivering Palm, Finger of Death, Wail, Implosion. Very limited and often less DC and easier to counter. I don't care what your fort is though, you're going to roll a 1 vs dev and die unless you're a palemaster and in that case, your spells are shit, so who cares? You lose by attrition, kthx.

Dwagin wrote:

1. Has been done already, actually. Keep in mind you can take their fort saves to 500, they'll still die 1/20th of the time you crit them. If you crit them half the time you swing, that chance goes up substantially per round.

2. Has been talked about, likely won't occur, if it does it will not be for those reasons though. Dev crit is a non-issue for hardcore pvp'ers, you do always have the random roll of 1. Which if half of the swings are going to trigger that roll, compared to 1/3rd, there's something clearly wrong mathmatically, which is what some people believe should be addressed because of the heavy imbalance of power.

If a character with dev crit find more than half of his kills are done not by dev crit but by damage, he will hesitate and perhaps want to concentrate on how to increase his damage. If a change can be seemly, I call it is balance between dev crit users and damage dealers(non-dev WMs etc.).

Last edited by Dwagin on Thu, Dec 10 2009, 5:50 AM, edited 1 time in total.

You have to take many feats to get to dev. If building with 'the spirit' of the entire feat list there in mind, and with the way Ruce would say.. Dev isn't about being precise with your strikes its about hitting like a mule.

Its the money shots from action movies like 300/Gladiator: Decapitation, Cutting someone in half, cleaving something straight through..gruesome henious amounts of damage.

I will also add, as a primary player of arcanists, I might be biased, but the whole possibility of all day 2-3 times every round with a rapier/scimitar of a save vs death does wrankle me scales too

TormakSaber wrote:

As opposed to the mage who has maybe 9 shots at it all day at the same DC? or Finger of Deaththat requires him to be in melee at a lower DC? And in both cases both can be stopped by death magic immunity? Or in Implosion, can stil be interrupted?

Dev is the broken one here in regards to simple how often it is capable of outputting a save vs death. It is not a balance point by ANY MEANS.

See: Smite Good/Smite Evil, Quivering Palm, Finger of Death, Wail, Implosion. Very limited and often less DC and easier to counter. I don't care what your fort is though, you're going to roll a 1 vs dev and die unless you're a palemaster and in that case, your spells are (censored), so who cares? You lose by attrition, kthx.

The thing is, are you planning to have the DC for this new version of Dev disregard the type of weapon used? If so, that puts all weapons on par in that particular field. Which I actually like, because it means we don't have to dabble around in taking keen and stuff off of things, because it will just mean they crit more often, but Dev the same as everyone else.

Another thing is if we are disregarding the type of weapon used(as I'm not sure if theres a way to "get" what weapon a character has Dev in through a script), what's to keep them from using it without a weapon equipped? As in, yeah, I took Dev in longsword, but what's keeping me from just using another weapon and deving? Perhaps that brings Dev to just a "general" feat now. That again, is fine with me, but I'm just trying to make sure I'm understanding what you're suggesting with the widget idea.

I'm not planning anything and I'm not really arguing for or against Dev's removal. I'm spitballing, and spitballs are gross.

Perfectly fine, Tormak! All I'm good for on these issues is thinking and posing questions, so I might as well put em to good use. x)

I'm not bent of changing dev one way or another, but if we as a server choose to, I think it should be in a way that doesn't require much, or any, retcon, if possible. I realize in the interest of fixing things, that's not always possible, though.

Would it be possible to disable dev crit at all?

Then replace it with an edited 2% on hit chaos shield that acts the same as dev crit. 2% chance to trigger a dev crit across all weapons.

halfling/gnome/... rapier/scimi users still use em as 2-handers, so ppl will just go for that...

give a good explanation why a halfling wouldn't be able to dev with a scimi where a human would with a greatsword (or to make it a perfect comparison a longsword for the halfling)

Size difference is a no go, cause then a human should only be able to dev humans etc, not giants or dragons. And even if you keep it limited to same size a halfling should still be able to take on goblins, kobos, ...

So, kicking out the high crit range weapons doesn't work... it doesn't make mechanical, nor IC sense. Just like taking keen away of those weapons doesn't make sense.

The only things that work are widgets and HAKS (to only dev on certain damage (100+), crits (natural 20), percentage of rolls (like it works for on hits) or add extra saves or some such, depending on dmg, weapon,...)
That, or leaving it as is.

What about replacing dev crit with a custom spell that gives a weapon vorpal property temporary, like ten rounds three times a day or such. Keep the function like it is, without the 24/7 part.

Vorpal is reflex, dev is fort:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Vorpal

TormakSaber wrote:

I hadn't considered that before, but yes, each Devastatig Critical feat is its own separate feat. You could parse it out to specifically two handed weapons only if you wanted, for example, I bet, with some fancy letoscript. Or simply elimunate scimi/kukri/rapier.

Seriously!? I've been saying this for years :lol:

But seriously now, making Rapiers unkeenable isnt really fixing the problem and it makes very little sense to me. Keen should work on all weapons regardless (just represents the impact property when cast on blunt weapons but thats an idea for another topic).

The real problem here is that Dev forces so many saves per round as Tormak said. Critters fort saves are jacked skyhigh soley because of dev.

The best option for all is for Dev to be replaced with some kind of widget. Hopefully that way at least, critters fort save can be brought down from such high levels.

The fact that a topic on balancing Pal/BG saves degenerated into one about Dev Crit is enough to tell me that changes need to be made to the feat.

Well here's the thing. The ultimate answer to the Dev Crit issue would be to lower the crit range for kurkis, rapiers and scims. The fact is though it's not happening unless Terra can reverse engineer NWN and use NWNX to modify said code, allowing it's application into the server without hak's. The likelyhood of that happening though is about as high as me winning the lottery.

Since that answer cannot be applied, the next best alternative is to some how stop dev crit from happening on these weapons, however, specifically targeting these weapons from using Dev Crit is gonna piss off a lot of people, and also isn't going to work on the builds already made taking advantage of these high crit ranges on tiny damage weapons.

Meaning the next best alternative is to change it so Dev Crit only works when a certain amount of damage is done. This eliminates those Kurki's and Rapiers who do about 80 damage on Crit at top level, no matter the build. It also applies it to those characters already taking advantage of this by instead modifying the application of the feat, and not who has the feat.

A widget sounds bad. I mean, first off Dev Crit isn't a spell, its' almost an on hit effect. A widget sounds yuck as it requires the player to micro manage the clicking of said widget, making sure they do that in the middle of a battle is bloody painful. Particulary if your a 2 hander, and thus need to belt out that damage hard and fast, before the enemy smashes past your pathetic AC and kills you in three seconds flat.

A widget for Dev would be the one thing that made sure I never took the feat again. Don't want to be flatfooted for a round to use a widget that may or may not score me some extra damage. That damage could've happened with 4 attacks anyhow, I'm betting.

Mr Mago wrote:

This is turning into nerf-o-holic.

So... you want to balance dev crit.

Will you also balance all the monsters with fort saves through the roofs? Will you also balance the insane accessibility of adding fort saves to your gear? Will you also balance the amount of damage output that will be lost, so that not everyone will have to be WM in order to do damage against Amia's 500+ HP monsters?

Will you fix HiPS, which is an even greater issue than dev crit?

Will you fix Epic Dodge, which is an even more powerful feat than dev crit?

What do you suggest I do with my 2 wonderforged rapiers, both with mythalled keen and one with mythalled +5 AB?

Just asking. Not accusing.

You're all eager to push the nerf button. But again, you need to think about the bigger picture. And to be frank, a lot of those who've posted in this thread hasn't got a clue of all the balance aspects involved.

Out of all the balance suggestions, Dwagin's is the one sensible. But it comes with big implications as well.

Quote:

You're all eager to push the nerf button. But again, you need to think about the bigger picture. And to be frank, a lot of those who've posted in this thread hasn't got a clue of all the balance aspects involved.

QFT.

I've been looking at the Pathfinder RPG (AKA DnD 3.75), and regarding critical hits, there are a lot of cool feats for them...

Does the game engine allow for say, Devastating Critical causing a Fortitude save or the targeted creature takes say, ability damage, or receives the exhausted condition?

Taking Constitution damage might work, with weapons with higher critical multipliers doing more ability damage, perhaps Fortitude save to half the damage (making it still effective to a degree against those that pass the save).

This would allow for a powerful, devastating strike, with a similar feel to the original, but without such a big problem of instant-death.

Just an idea, though.

Will Dev Crit being changed really destroy Darthion that much? All it means for my barb is that it'll take two crits to kill a polar bear. PVP it'd hopefully stop 3-4 DC 39 death saves in the space of 6 seconds.

Oh, hes not a weaponmaster either.

To be fair, hopefully all those balance issues you mentioned could be fixed especially those instigated by Dev crit.

No idea what you could do with your rapiers either.

But talking about Dev being changed and it actually happening are two very different things.

a widget could work if it gives the weapon a 24hour property which does an on hit.

That on hit should then check if the previous damage dealt was >100 or on a natural 20 crit-roll (if its even possible to check backwards)
Basically working around the limits a hakless server has by replacing the feat with a new weapon property.

Scimi/... will still be great weapons because of their normal crit chance in both cases.
Dev crit is lowered in # of hits due to the limitations (due to the damage thing or because of going from all crits to something like 20% of crits to trigger it)
Balance overal is retained:
- dev critters dont go flatfooted and builds dont need to change.
- damage without dev is retained
- fort saves are kept, just you will need to roll it less.

Anyways, it can stay as is for all I care and I dont even have a devcritter anymore (atm)

Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves

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