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And what do you suggest an appropriate nerf to the ability would be?

The ability itself isn't overpowered by Amian standards, and the only proper argument I've heard of thus far as to how the ability could be seen as unfit for the module, is in regards to truly epic bosses that run the risk of getting dev crit'ed prior to their 3000+ HP running out.

My suggestion would be only allowing Dev Crit on certain weapons - ideally I'd suggest a damage minimum to activate, but I know this cannot be done without haks.

And it is the instant killing of bosses that I find it so obscene - I've no problem with it killing me in PvP (which it has an annoying tendency to do), but an epic boss dying in a single shot is always a depressing spectacle in mine eyes.

Change all epic bosses to be crit immune.

Mr Mago wrote:

Change all epic bosses to be crit immune.

To be fair, I would of thought this would of been implimented at their creation.

The newer bosses are crit immune (Pirate, Darkness). And a few of the old ones (Maxi, Kraven).

They should all be crit immune, though.

Yeah, Dev-critting an Epic Monster removes the epic part to it.

Last edited by Nex_addo on Sat, Dec 12 2009, 18:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

So at the moment the only people that can really solo bosses is Clerics and Mages. Now you want to make the bosses crit immune. So those WM who already are one of the worst off classes for fighting bosses are even more worse off.

And making it so Kukri's, Scimmy's, and Rapiers cant be keend? Weel I guess we'll have no more weapon masters for said weapons. THink about it.

Epic bosses =/= Easy.

Bards, Mages, Clerics, Barbarians, BG's, Paladins, HiPS'ters, Rangers.

All of these can solo epic bosses.

Some of them more successfully than others.

WM's have it easy solo'ing the Beholder Queen, as it is.

The epic bosses are severely flawed in several aspects.

Who said bosses are meant to be killed solo in the first place? Half the server doing it is another story.

I still say null Ki Critical for for scimitar kukri and rapier. Seems like the cleanest way to shorten the ridiculous range it gets for being used as an intrument of brute force trauma. Doesn't shorten it by much, but enough to make people look at the regular swords and those 3 more closely.

Again, if that's not possible, do nothing to Dev in general.

And IMO, removing dev completely for just those 3 weapons is not an option/explainable. "These weapons require finesse to kill, not strength". You'd soon find yourself reasoning out whip, light weapons, etc etc. It's just too crude, in my book.

Remove keen from all of the Infamous 3 (kukri, scimmy, rapier) that are sold by merchants or dropped, disable mythalling keen on them and make them immune to the keen spell and then make keen a DC request for the 3 weapons?

Those characters with DC-bought versions of the Infamous 3 would keep them, but would it really be any different than many of the other overpowered items that have since been discontinued that some characters still have in their possession?

Mr Mago wrote:

The newer bosses are crit immune (Pirate, Darkness). And a few of the old ones (Maxi, Kraven).

They should all be crit immune, though.

So rogues are now worthless to killing bosses. Congrats. You nullified 5 classes, 2 of them prestige classes. (fighter, wm, rogue, assassin, bg.)

You can't separate crit and sneak immunity and it is not "balanced" to fuck over a rogue or assassin or high level BG's largest scaling ability just because of one broken feat.

Quote:

Those characters with DC-bought versions of the Infamous 3 would keep them, but would it really be any different than many of the other overpowered items that have since been discontinued that some characters still have in their possession?

Except they didnt, they turned them in or got them changed by script. This whole "Grandfathering" thing? Doesn't exist anymore. I argue until the DMs get headaches, over people having uneven tiering of equipment.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Those characters with DC-bought versions of the Infamous 3 would keep them, but would it really be any different than many of the other overpowered items that have since been discontinued that some characters still have in their possession?

Except they didnt, they turned them in or got them changed by script. This whole "Grandfathering" thing? Doesn't exist anymore. I argue until the DMs get headaches, over people having uneven tiering of equipment.

Is it not possible fiddle with Ki Critical, Tormak? I realize it's not an individual feat per each weapon like Dev is. But Perhaps we could do something when someone selects Weapon Choice: Kukri, Scimitar, Rapier.

I'm thinking system records when they make the choice to take Weapon of Choice for those three. Then at level 7 WM in th PC gets kicked from server and Ki Critical taken. They'd still gain superior weapon focus and increased multiplier, but no more ridiculous crit-every-other-hit Dev.

Might encourage folk to "break the mold" a little bit more when if comes to WM and dev weapons. The margin of choice is evened up a little.

It's still 12-20, better than any other weapon in the game can achieve even with full WM feats. You've not fixed anything. Every weapon should be a viable option. The idea is not to make three weapons useless but acknowledge that those three weapons are "too good". That's why I advocated a blanket change: An effective nerf without singling out, and we are, the rapier/scimitar/kukri users, no matter how much "we" may dislike the weapons.

Quite frankely epic bosses shouldn't be able to be soloed. By any class. Mage and Cleric included. You should need a team to take down those mothers. Though in saying this, the server isn't designed for people who feel the need to tune every aspect of their build towards defeating everything on it's own, and nor should it be.

But still, if you can solo a boss, then grats, but you shouldn't be able to solo an epic boss unless you specfically created your build to take down everything on it's own.

TormakSaber wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

The newer bosses are crit immune (Pirate, Darkness). And a few of the old ones (Maxi, Kraven).

They should all be crit immune, though.

So rogues are now worthless to killing bosses. Congrats. You nullified 5 classes, 2 of them prestige classes. (fighter, wm, rogue, assassin, bg.)

You can't separate crit and sneak immunity and it is not "balanced" to (censored) over a rogue or assassin or high level BG's largest scaling ability just because of one broken feat.

No, they're not worthless in killing epic bosses.

They'd be dealing the same damage as everyone else.

WMs won't get to deal out their 150+ crits in one blow. Dev Critters won't get to Dev Crit. Rogues won't get to sneak.

You're suggesting that we nerf Dev Crit, screwing over every single non-WM non-sneak attack meleer out there.

Str by itself would become a useless ability.

I've already said this in previous posts, and how and why it would be so.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's still 12-20, better than any other weapon in the game can achieve even with full WM feats. You've not fixed anything. Every weapon should be a viable option. The idea is not to make three weapons useless but acknowledge that those three weapons are "too good". That's why I advocated a blanket change: An effective nerf without singling out, and we are, the rapier/scimitar/kukri users, no matter how much "we" may dislike the weapons.

I still say narrowing the gap is better than anything else. The people who build purely for numbers would still find someone to make it work for them. All we can hope to do is even it out a bit more when they choose to do so.

Besides, nulling Ki Crit for WM: S, R, K doesn't affect anyone else or any aspect of the game we'd need to change otherwise. No rebalancing monsters, no messing with mythalble stuff, no taking keen from weapons and going back in and doing other stuff with DC items.

Mr Mago wrote:

No, they're not worthless in killing epic bosses.

They'd be dealing the same damage as everyone else.

WMs won't get to deal out their 150+ crits in one blow. Dev Critters won't get to Dev Crit. Rogues won't get to sneak.

You're suggesting that we nerf Dev Crit, screwing over every single non-WM non-sneak attack meleer out there.

Str by itself would become a useless ability.

I've already said this in previous posts, and how and why it would be so.

Ceteris paribus, devvers are still better equipped facing crit immune monsters because at the very least, they still have the damage to do good damage. Whilst dexxers who rely on the sneak die will be basically dealing neglible amounts of damage.

So by creating monsters crit immune, you've fixed the instant death tricks for STR toons but at the expense of the dexxers. Everybody suffers, but they don't suffer equally.

ticket wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

No, they're not worthless in killing epic bosses.

They'd be dealing the same damage as everyone else.

WMs won't get to deal out their 150+ crits in one blow. Dev Critters won't get to Dev Crit. Rogues won't get to sneak.

You're suggesting that we nerf Dev Crit, screwing over every single non-WM non-sneak attack meleer out there.

Str by itself would become a useless ability.

I've already said this in previous posts, and how and why it would be so.

Ceteris paribus, devvers are still better equipped facing crit immune monsters because at the very least, they still have the damage to do good damage. Whilst dexxers who rely on the sneak die will be basically dealing neglible amounts of damage.

So by creating monsters crit immune, you've fixed the instant death tricks for STR toons but at the expense of the dexxers. Everybody suffers, but they don't suffer equally.

When you go Dex instead of Str, you're giving up the extra damage in exchange for other, very neat benefits.

Mr Mago wrote:

Gawd. Here we go:

:: STR ability ::

1 Str Mod = +1 AB, +1 damage, +1 Discipline

Feats Available: Dev Crit, Mighty Rage

Requirement (Dev Crit): 25 Str, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical

Requirements (Mighty Rage): 21 Str, 21 Con, Greater Rage

:: DEX ability ::

1 Dex Mod = +1 AB, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +1 Hide, +1 MS, +1 Open Lock, +1 Tumble, +1 Pick Pocket, +1 Parry

Feats Available: Epic Dodge, Self Conceal

Requirements (Epic Dodge): 25 Dex, Tumble 30 ranks, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll.

Requirements (Self Conceal): 30 Dex, Hide 30, Tumble 30, Improved Evasion.

Reflex saves apply to Evasion / Improved Evasion.

A dex'er with +12 str through equip/buffs, with 10 base str, only gives up 8 damage per hit to the str-based meleer.

8 damage.

That's what you guys consider to be a complete assraping of dex'ers ability to kill epic monsters, that would be crit/sneak immune.

The dex'er still gets the following which the str'er still doesn't get; +5 AC, +14 reflex (from ability alone, not counting the extra base save to reflex), evasion (possibly improved evasion), Epic Dodge, ms, hide, set trap, etc etc.

I'd say that's a pretty damn nice trade off for 8 damage per hit.

Dex'ers are given the option, as much as any str-based or wis-based build, to compensate for low damage by taking divine might.

Everybody suffers.

But dex'ers -hardly- get shafted. All in all, I dare say that they're still given better chances of killing an epic boss with their higher AC, saves, Hide/MS, epic dodge, (Imp) Evasion.

you're counting 2 full stats (str and dex) in that "comparison".

where will you put the rest of the item mythal slots they suddenly need?

most dexers have low CON, since the bosses still crit they will need CON.
bosses that have some FORT rolls; what you do with them and other saves.

If you slap 24mythal powers on DEX and STR leaves you only 8 for AC, saves, con, regen, freedom, weapon enhancements,...

DEX

Same AB as fighter.
Lower damage.Attacks per round: 6-10
Higher AC. 80-110 hide/ms , epic dodge, concealments, Evasion / Imp Evasion, Dodge, Defencive Roll and more.

STR

Same AB as dexer.
Higher damage.Attacks per round 5
Lower AC.

DEXers take 12 con in general while fighters take 14 con. The difference between the HP of a STR and a DEX based is not significant even when you take into account that fighter gets d10 and dexer gets d6.
Because I'd take 80-110 hide/ms , epic dodge, concealments, Imp Evasions, Dodge, Defencive Roll, etc etc on my fighter in exchange for the not such an impressive HP increase for going Strenght based - any day.

Whatever touches the defence department between DEX and STR, is not a valid arguement whatsoever. The fighter's HP isnt making up for any of those abilities that the DEX has.

DEXers have nothing to cry about in regards to DEV crit either. If you didnt take fort for those rare ocasions you do get hit, then Im sorry. There is a problem with you, not the feat, or the weapons.

Someone said divine shield is not a valid option for DEXers because you loose out on DEX. Well guess how the fighters do it.. they suck it up and sacrifice that STR and CON. You think the STR based just gets the charisma out of the sky? No. They make sacrifices, so can DEXers.

No matter how you look at it. The only thing a strenght based has is DEV-Crit. And the only people whining about it are the ones that mainly dont play fighters. Ive never seen a single person cry about DEV crit being overpowered that mainly plays fighters. Servers like Bastions of War that are purely focused on ballance between classes dont even nerf DEV crit. And they do put a cooldown timer on HIPS... just goes to show. And the gear there is similar. Mythalable, and almost same tier. And yeah.. there are same amount of DEXers as there are STRers. Nerf DEV and STR folk is extinct. I promise you that.

Riddle, bastions of war doesnt have HiPs, instead it was replaced with a stronger version of the SD shadowshield, increased concealment and damage reduction based on SD levels.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Riddle, bastions of war doesnt have HiPs, instead it was replaced with a stronger version of the SD shadowshield, increased concealment and damage reduction based on SD levels.

They changed it? Cool. Even better.. but they did not in any way nerf DEV or weapons.

belgianbonzai wrote:

you're counting 2 full stats (str and dex) in that "comparison".

where will you put the rest of the item mythal slots they suddenly need?

most dexers have low CON, since the bosses still crit they will need CON.
bosses that have some FORT rolls; what you do with them and other saves.

If you slap 24mythal powers on DEX and STR leaves you only 8 for AC, saves, con, regen, freedom, weapon enhancements,...

You don't slap 24 mythal powers on DEX and STR...

Most of my builds these days max out three ability stats;

STR+DEX+CON / STR+CHA+CON / DEX+WIS+CON / DEX+CHA+CON.

And they do so while getting 35+ Fort as well.

And no... they're not all casters.

So yes, I'm counting 2 ful stats in that "comparison". And it works perfectly fine.

Well I have seen at least one viable solution to the problem, lowering the crit range on these specific weapons makes plenty of sense.

Quote:

Well I have seen at least one viable solution to the problem, lowering the crit range on these specific weapons makes plenty of sense.

How does it make plenty of sense? Some of the best weapon master I know are bastard sword wielders. Nerfing them will just force everyone to take a different weapon and suddenly WM are that much less powerful. WM arn't even powerful at the moment.

Nex_addo wrote:

Quote:

Well I have seen at least one viable solution to the problem, lowering the crit range on these specific weapons makes plenty of sense.

How does it make plenty of sense? Some of the best weapon master I know are bastard sword wielders. Nerfing them will just force everyone to take a different weapon and suddenly WM are that much less powerful. WM arn't even powerful at the moment.

Um... I don't think anyone was talking about nerfing bastard sword at this point. Just the infamous 3.

Firstly, WM's are powerful. At least more powerful than your plain Fighter. Interprit that as you will. Secondly, shortening the crit range on the 3 weapons that everyone and their mother unimaginatively chooses doesn't really hurt a damn thing. Just taking Ki Critical from those 3 kinds of weapon master only shortens their oeverall range to 12-20. Comapre to range of longsword, bastard sword, etc at 13-20.

It'd still be better at critting, but not by that much. Using those 3 as brute force weapons for dev with the same crit range of a crit every other hit is just ridiculous to me. 12-20 is plenty. It doesn't discourage people from going WM with them at all, but it makes it less of gap in choosing where we just might get a few more people going WM with other weapons for the "cool factor" rather than "I need to crit every other hit or I'll get pwned!!!".

Dont fix something that is not broken. And of course WM are stronger then a a plain fighter what a pointless comment. Guess what WM are stronger then a Str based wizard as well.

What about non WM using those weapons does that mean they have a Scimmy it effects them big time as well. You propse they have a crit range of 14-20. Thats an amazing jump. But if we did that we'd have to balance everythign else well.

Take away level 9 spells
No Epic dodge.
No Divine might or shield.

Yes 18-20 weapons are powerful but no nearly the most powerful things in the game.

What?

Only WM's get Ki Critical... it wouldn't effect non-WM's at all. The highest attainable crit range with the 3 weapons would be 12-20 by taking Imp Critical and having the weapon keened(Things all classes can get and take). I don't know where you're getting 14-20 from.

If you're trying to say that WM is the weakest class as well, I think you've got your battle cut out for you, considering Increased Multiplier, Ki Damage and Superior Weapon Focus... all things that S:R:K WM's would still get.

Not saying its the weakest class.
And the Crit range only effecting WM? WTF? So there really isn't much point making a WM scimmy, Rapier, Kurki user?
Your being very indecisive. First it was nerf Dev Crit. THen the three weapons now its just WMs.
To be honest I run into far more powerbuilt clerics then I do powerbuilt WM. Saying something? I don't people opt to pick the weaker class

OH and Ki Critical is a joke very rarely do I ever see it used.

Actually, it's not indecisive at all. What deterimes the frequency of Devastating Critical? Criticals. What are criticals determined by? Threat range. How do we make dev more reasonable? Affect the threat range of certain weapons that we feel are overused and/or misused for the sheer purpose of getting 3-6 Dev attempts a round.

And.. again... I have to wonder if you've followed my posts. Firstly, it would only effect WM's in those 3 weapons. Secondly, what in the gods' names do you mean there's no point making a rapier scimitar or kukri? WM's in those three go from a 10-20 crit range to a 12-20 crit range. 12-20 STILL being slightly better than your 13-20 crit range you get by being a WM in other swords.

I assume you mean Ki Damage, not Ki Critical, the WM feat that adds +2 to WoC threat range, seeing as that's a passive feat and all.

The point is why would you make a WM using a scimmy if you could only get 12-20 on his weapon. Whereas if you pick any other class you'll still get that same 12-20. Kinda beats the point of taking all those extra feats to get to WM.

Could we get some examples of these weapon masters being so OP that they need nerfing? Also there is always shifters and Palemasters which basically make said three useless.
Yes they have their advantages they also have disadvantages.

Lets take the Kukri its 1D4 for gods sake if you cant crit your done. I'm just racking my brains for some time I've fought a WM with said weapons that made me go HMm OP.

Nex_addo wrote:

Lets take the Kukri its 1D4 for gods sake if you cant crit your done. I'm just racking my brains for some time I've fought a WM with said weapons that made me go HMm OP.

And in addition to the Dev Crit feats you've spent another feat just to be proficient in it.

Well yeah you need to take weapon prof exotic
Your obviously gonna duel wield if your taking Kukri's thats three more feats

So all up whats that?

Dodge
Expertise
Mobilty
Spring attack
Whirlwind
Weapon foucs
Weapon exotic
Power attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Two weapon fighting
AMbidex
Improved two weapon.

13 FEATS!!!!!! And you want to nerf it? Cant think of any other build that requires so many feats just to be okay at hitting

Nex_addo wrote:

The point is why would you make a WM using a scimmy if you could only get 12-20 on his weapon. Whereas if you pick any other class you'll still get that same 12-20. Kinda beats the point of taking all those extra feats to get to WM.

So your point is that the only valid reason to take WM is to go scimi, kukri, rapier, and thereby get 10-20 threat range and Dev with every other hit. Because 12-20 is just pointless. Which makes taking any other weapon, which would give a range of 13-20 or less pointless as well. So WM as a class is completely pointless, underpowered, and not worth your time unless you're going WM with S:R:K and using Dev.

Sadly, I beleive this is the unspoken concensus on WM. Which is exactly what I at least wish would be changed about the class, because it relates that directly to most of the griping about Dev.

WM's still get a greater threat range than anyone else, plus more AB and a higher crit modifier.

Nex_addo wrote:

Well yeah you need to take weapon prof exotic
Your obviously gonna duel wield if your taking Kukri's thats three more feats

So all up whats that?

Dodge
Expertise
Mobilty
Spring attack
Whirlwind
Weapon foucs
Weapon exotic
Power attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Two weapon fighting
AMbidex
Improved two weapon.

13 FEATS!!!!!! And you want to nerf it? Cant think of any other build that requires so many feats just to be okay at hitting

Only nerfing it for three overpowered weapons, in fact.

Actually, I do like the idea of removing the effects of ki-critical on those weapons, although I dn't know if it is possible, or how much it will help.

Yurell wrote:

Actually, I do like the idea of removing the effects of ki-critical on those weapons, although I dn't know if it is possible, or how much it will help.

If we tie it to the feats Weapon of Choice: Scimitar/Rapier/Kukri, it's very possible. People would with one of those 3 feats would get kicked at WM lv 7 and Ki Critical wouldn't activate for them.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Actually, I do like the idea of removing the effects of ki-critical on those weapons, although I dn't know if it is possible, or how much it will help.

If we tie it to the feats Weapon of Choice: Scimitar/Rapier/Kukri, it's very possible. People would with one of those 3 feats would get kicked at WM lv 7 and Ki Critical wouldn't activate for them.

Why? They ~trained~ to excel in their weapon of choice. As Nexx pointed out already, they took ~a lot~ of feats in order to master their weapon of choice. Only so they will suddenly deal as much damage as a fighter who did not go for a Prc?

I have not been posting because I am in agreement with Mago's and Riddle's posts.

But do we really need to get to the point of weakening a PrC just because people cannot get along with being Dev Critted?

BlackDahlya wrote:

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Actually, I do like the idea of removing the effects of ki-critical on those weapons, although I dn't know if it is possible, or how much it will help.

If we tie it to the feats Weapon of Choice: Scimitar/Rapier/Kukri, it's very possible. People would with one of those 3 feats would get kicked at WM lv 7 and Ki Critical wouldn't activate for them.

Why? They ~trained~ to excel in their weapon of choice. As Nexx pointed out already, they took ~a lot~ of feats in order to master their weapon of choice. Only so they will suddenly deal as much damage as a fighter who did not go for a Prc?

I have not been posting because I am in agreement with Mago's and Riddle's posts.

But do we really need to get to the point of weakening a PrC just because people cannot get along with being Dev Critted?

Mr Mago wrote:

WM's still get a greater threat range than anyone else, plus more AB and a higher crit modifier.

All we're doing is suggesting take two off the threat range off three weapons.

BlackDahlya wrote:

But do we really need to get to the point of weakening a PrC just because people cannot get along with being Dev Critted?

Dev Crit by itself is not a major issue. That's why we're not suggesting anything to change the actual ability.

Merely lowering the "cap" on the frequency it activates for 3 specific weapons that are overused to the point of saddness. And those 3 would still get a better range than the other swords, yet no one claims them to be weakened.

And of course, what Yurell quoted of Mago.

Dark Immolation wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

But do we really need to get to the point of weakening a PrC just because people cannot get along with being Dev Critted?

Dev Crit by itself is not a major issue. That's why we're not suggesting anything to change the actual ability.

Merely lowering the "cap" on the frequency it activates for 3 specific weapons that are overused to the point of saddness. And those 3 would still get a better range than the other swords, yet no one claims them to be weakened.

And of course, what Yurell quoted of Mago.

But if the weapon does not have a critical range anymore, will the WM's threat range still make a difference?

Do not get me wrong! I am not an expert on this stuff. >.<

BlackDahlya wrote:

But if the weapon does not have a critical range anymore, will the WM's threat range still make a difference?

WM's in those three weapons would no longer get Ki Critical, the WM feat that extends the chosen weapon's threat range by 2. But they'd still get the Critical Multiplier, Ki Damage, everything else.

The explanation being that the weapons already get a threat range larger than any other weapon without the +2. So that's kinda the whole point, Dahlya. :wink:

I'm putting a link to this page because maybe a graph can say it better.

Threat Range

Frankly, considering if you're hitting and critting on a 10 your opponent was likely going to keel over dead anyways at your hand very easily, your proposed nerf fixes absolutely nothing.

How about take off the WM improved crit thing for WMs with those chosen weapons (scimi kukri rapier), and instead give them a flat +2/3 damage?

Well my original stance was not to nerf Dev at all. We can't nerf Dev directly without rebalancing a lot of the server, ticking off dozens of folks, and implimenting some serious scripting. Either all that, or Haks. Both are extremely messy, and risk having everyone with the feat, WM or no, rebuilding to desregard the feat.

And nice idea, Vaylek, however not possible without haks, I'm afraid. We can take feats out completely quite easily. It's nigh hard to impossible to modify feats. Unless they have a script. Which Dev does not.

Thus, the two options of removing a feat that that influences Dev Crit, or removing the feat Dev Crit completely and trying to put in a surrogate.

I guess my question (mainly to the DMs) is whether they think its likely Dev crit will be modified?

Is there a feeling that a nerf is in order amongst the DM camp, or are you just kind of flirting with the idea Tormie?

Here's a suggestion based on the PnP 3.5 rules - is it possible to make Imp. Crit. not stack with Keen?

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