AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Quick question regarding specialized wizards.

When a wizard specializes in a school of magic(ie, becomes an evoker, conjurist, etc, etc), how exactly is his "forbidden" school restricted from him ICly?

As in, is a specialist wizard just physically incapable of memorizing such spells or using them from scrolls from scrolls, does he just lack the training required to read them, or is he "forbidden" from casting them in the sense like a monk is "forbidden" to wear armor?

I would assume it to be a combination of the first and the second.

The PHB states that it's option two (although in PnP you lose two schools). You simply spent so much time studying your chosen school that you neglected study on your other schools so much that one of them you ignored entirely.

Okay I have a few questions about fey-touched people of whatever descent? A link would be nice.

1. Do the eat in the physical sense or the way fey eat.

2. How are they alive like a human or like a fey.

3. Do they need sleep, and do they have actual functioning organs?

Oh yeah do they age like elves or are they immortal? I've read amia wiki none of this stuff is explained. Thank you for the help. Thank you.

No such information exists. What you see in the Subrace page and find on WotC's page is all there is, a very short introduction.

Treat them as elves for all physiological needs. Just like Planetouched, they don't get immortality or somesuch.

Yurell wrote:

The PHB states that it's option two (although in PnP you lose two schools). You simply spent so much time studying your chosen school that you neglected study on your other schools so much that one of them you ignored entirely.

If that's the reason, would make more sense to allow the wizard to "choose" which schools they ignored, rather than just arbitrarily state they loose one. It's not so much the classes "oppose" as much as it's saying people who study Necromancy intensely always neglect divination; not that pledging yourself to one magically forbids you from using another.

In all honesty, I find it hard for any wizard wishing to gain all the knowledge they can would specialize in such a way they'd never, ever, even look at the basics about of another school of magic. I mean, I could have a lv 30 illusionist with 47 base spellcraft, and lore would tell you he wouldn't know how to read the same scroll a lv 1 universal wizard could. :roll:

It's not the reason, it's the explanation. The reason is purely game mechanical, I'm sure.

Yep. And in PnP you do get to choose the two schools you lose. Funnily: You can never choose to lose Divination, and if you choose Divination to specialize in, you only have to choose one school to lose.

Crazy how these thins transfer to NWN, but oh well.

So I decided to look into the possibilities of dual patronage for clerics. Turns out there are several cleric NPCs with two "patrons." I think it can be safely said that it is possible for a priest to receive spells from several sources at a time, but it seems to be quite rare and always for some good reason.

Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast wrote:

Salyndra Shaern is an NG elf P14 of both
Oghma and Corellon Larethian. Salyndra was installed to guide the younger Watger, to learn of the wisdom of
humans for the elves, and to foster harmony between humans and elves in the city, a task which she excels at. She
is a gray-haired, dry-voiced, cynical and petite old lady whose hair is always long and unkempt and who dresses in
simple dark robes. Her biting advice often conceals a heart of gold. A lost or beset traveler will find her a quick and
true friend. Adventurers are always returning to tell her of their successes and to give gifts to the temple in repayment
for the aid she gave them.

Jungles of Chult wrote:

Elijah (9th level priest of Tyr & Ubtao):
[...]
Elijah’s spells are limited because he waffles
between worshipping Tyr and Ubtao. Still,
Tyr bestows some spells upon him, hoping he
will one day come to his senses and return to
worshipping only Tyr.

Forgotten Realms Adventures wrote:

Temple of the Cult of the
Dragon; High Dragonservant Faerlaur
Onthim (NE hm P10), his spells granted
by Shar and Cyric; 6 priests, 13 followers.

Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark wrote:

Shakti Hunzrin (CE female drow P9 of Lolth/Vhaeraun)
is the heir to House Hunzrin and traitorously worships
both Vhaeraun and Lolth. Shakti’s skill in administer-
ing agriculture and animal husbandry has greatly
increased her house’s wealth and, to a lesser extent, her
personal status.

Cult of the Dragon wrote:

Salvarad, priest of “Talos” (LE hm C20 of Shar and
Cyric; apparently Salvarad has a peculiar and unique relationship
with these two deities, who both grant him spells,
and only mouths reverence for Talos, whom he does not
truly worship)

Forgotten Realms Adventures wrote:

Salvarad (LE hm P(now)20) of the
Cult of the Dragon, whose spells are, in
reality, granted by both Shar and Cyric.

And according to Kuje, this one can be found in Dungeon #67:

Quote:

Father Turghan, 3rd, Male Human LG Lathander and Chauntea -- Leader of The House of Sun and Earth in Woody Glen in the High Forest.

And this in Realmspace:

Quote:

Kalia 8th Female Human LG Tyr and Torm

If you have access to either of the resources, do tell us more!

Would not a "true" Triadic Knight fall under this "dual-patronage" clause too, Iron? I imagine a paladin RPed as the PrC might fall under this when praying for his spells. Never heard of a "triadic" cleric, but it wouldn't seem too out of the question, considering how the well the deities' clergies tend to group together. Someone learning to be a cleric in the Temple of the Triad in Kohl for example would seem to be in the perfect place to learn to be a "cleric of the triad."

I'm not even gonna get into the case with Angharradh.... elven pantheons are just confusing.

I suppose it makes sense. I can imagine a rather unique tradition of emphasizing the unity of the Triad arising on Amia, thanks to the temple, maybe.

I'd read the laws on deities and followers as generalizations made to cover the overwhelming majority of cases and describe the typical state of things. They're not to be understood as binding rules without leeway, IMO. And we know for a fact that's what WotC wanted to do when they released 3e: to simplify and generalize the rules and lore for easy playing. It is obvious in everything from spells to skills to gods to cosmology, and the designers have clearly stated this. So you should always take (especially 3e) stuff with a grain of salt, supposing that it means "often X is true." That's what the designers intended, too: to clear the clutter of detail from the books (which is regrettable, but and understandable choice), and let players and DMs come up with their own detail to fill in what they left vague or homogenous.

Some examples of general rules proven wrong by individual cases include clergy alignments (One Step Rule), nature deity lists (was just reading about druids of Istishia), ranger patrons, and having a single patron (see above; it's a 3e invention, AFAIK). There's more, of course, but the point is: the rules apply as generalizations that describe how things are in the world, not as detailed studies of all the possibilities.

Who rules Endirs Point, how old is the settlement, what are its commercial connectiosn with Amia and the main ports of the world, and do they export other things than minerals and wood?

Though it's something to be found out in game, what's around it could be quite telling if you travel there and aorund.

Isnt much info in game on who rules the settlement or what connections it has to the outsiode word. Only bit i have found is inside the shrine to Shaundakul, and while interesting enough, doesent explain eveything I need to know.

To be completely fair, there are certain cases in which you can't find out info IC. Like how I had to ask did Kohl have nobility and whatnot.

Only thing about Endir's Point is I think there's a NPC or sign somewhere that explictly states pretty much everything you're asking IIRC, QPR.

Jergal gave up most of his portfolios but still exists, and thus has clerics.

Could someone feasibly worship Tyche, as opposed to Tymora or Beshaba specifically?

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Jergal gave up most of his portfolios but still exists, and thus has clerics.

Could someone feasibly worship Tyche, as opposed to Tymora or Beshaba specifically?

Seriously doubt that. The case with Jergal is that he just gave up most of his portfolio. He's still a god though.

Tyche on the other hand, doesn't exist at all, at least not in the original sense. She was "split" into Beshaba and Tymora, after Moander's flower did whatever to her.

The only way I could see people still worshipping Tyche would be if Beshaba's masquerading as her somewhere and the worshippers just hadn't heard otherwise... But it's been well over 1000 years since the split into the two happened. I'd dare to say everyone would know Tyche doesn't "exist" anymore after that amount of time, especially given the Time of Troubles.

Edit: Sorry, that really isn't exactly answering your question.

It's "possible" that someone could still worship any dead deity in Faerun, it's just very unlikely to still find worshippers of them as time passes because clerics and clergy would soon notice that their prayers aren't being answered any more. Any divine class with her as a patron would cease to have it's power as well, because of the afore mentioned reasons.

So yes, someone could still worship her, but it's highly unlikely, and even so, people would look at the character like someone who admits to worshipping the Greek Gods in our modern world.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Jergal gave up most of his portfolios but still exists, and thus has clerics.

Could someone feasibly worship Tyche, as opposed to Tymora or Beshaba specifically?

Jergal gave up -most- of his portfolio. He's still alive, still a god and still has a portfolio. He's god of fatalism, guardian of tombs and proper burial.

It's feasible to worship Tyche, sure. There's a few ways to go about it. The best way to explain them is by giving examples of how dead or non-existing gods receive or have received worship:

1. People still worship Bhaal even though he's dead. Some of these divine spell casting worshipers receive their spell through feat that allows you to receive spells from a dead god. I forgot the name of the feat though.

2. There are a few cases were people worship two gods as one. Believing them to be two aspects of the same god. An example of that is "Dark Moon Heresy". The belief that Selune and Shar are the same god. There are divine casters of this faith, I believe. But I could be wrong.

3. There are people who worship Amaunator, believing Lathander to be an aspect of Amaunator. There are divine casters of these beliefs.

4. There's cases where existing gods are stealing worship from dead or non-existing gods to gain worship indirectly. Like Ibrandul, who Shar killed and now steals his worship.

5. And then there are cases where god's are known by different names and worshiped through that name, still receiving divine spells through this name. An example is Chauntea being known as Bhalla in Rashemen. Since, in a way, Tyche is both Tymora and Beshaba, you can say that one of them grants you divine spells, taking the worship of "Tyche" as a call to them. Depending on if your character leans evil or good, it would make more sense if they went toward the respective god alignment.

All that said, in a case like this, you should always ask a DM before doing it. Just to be safe. They have final say on sketchy stuff, after all.

But, if you're making a character that isn't a divine casters, you can worship whoever and whatever the heck you like and no one can stop you. You're not getting anything in return for your worship so it doesn't break any rules. You can worship a frickin' rock if you want to. No one can stop you.

Thanks, Guns and Dark - I really appreciate the advice and opinions. I knew the bit about Tyche being split by Moander and that she isn't technically a goddess any more. My main thought was that she is both technically a 'dead god' and not, since she never died - but got split into two aspects. So worshipping her would effectively be worshipping Beshaba and Tymora at the same time.

I appreciate the help, guys, really. Amians never cease to amaze me with their willingess to assist. ^^

Since Gunz mentioned Bhaal - Cyric used to provide the followers of Bhaal their powers after his usurpation, under the names of Bhaal and Bhaal-Cyric. However, he does that no longer and does not give powers if worshipped as Bhaal or Bhaal-Cyric.

i have a question about the lore surrounding wings (the angel type not the draconic type)
it is possible to buy the white wings modle with DCs how is it justafiable in RP. i had an idea that my seamingly human PC actually was a child of the gods (tyr) and is in truth a "sleeper agent" type of half celestial. i read in the monster manual that aasimar arent typical to have wings but half celestials are... so is it possible to have tyr "awaken" my character through a prayer which transforms his body into its true form (IE winged and possessing the half celstial template. the template may or may not be approved even if it is lore acurate.)
and if there is a more lore acurate way to RP out a gain of wings then please discuss. for arguments sake, my PC is a paladin of tyr and a knight of the triad, and so far a devout and respectable figure.

tsukasa1991 wrote:

...human PC actually was a child of the gods (tyr) and is in truth a "sleeper agent" type of half celestial...

Yeah, so just to be honest... that's never going to happen on Amia. Unless you're Johnny Cochran reincarnated.

Yes, it's possible to buy Angel wings with DC. Same as any other wings.

The only possible thing I see that could fit into your story as you'd like it is an Aasimar character(planetouched human) who manifests his traits later in life. And despite what the manual say, Aasimar can choose to focus on their heritage and have physical things manifest, just like dragon disciples choose to focus on theirs. It is possible for people not to know of thier heritage until puberty or later, but as far as being a child of a god, let alone an ancient greater deity, it for all intent and purposes is not an option on Amia. Oh, and "templates" aren't accepted in Amia either. The like first thing it says in the Request forum sticky is "Your character will not have any special powers/abilities just because the race is approved." Or something to that effect, might wanna have a look yourself.

However, there's another problem. If you've already made this PC as a human, it's not allowed that you "rebuild" or claim a subrace later after the character's been played. You would have had to make the PC as an Aasimar in the first place, and just RP them as "not knowing" about their heritage.

Unless DM's make a special case, in which you keep the human subrace but are just a "celestial" in name. Which I don't see going over too well. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Uh, if you're playing an unapproved half celestial I suggest you fix it right now by being an Aasimar. Or if you are human, then you are human.

Dark Immolation wrote:

tsukasa1991 wrote:

...human PC actually was a child of the gods (tyr) and is in truth a "sleeper agent" type of half celestial...

Yeah, so just to be honest... that's never going to happen on Amia. Unless you're Johnny Cochran reincarnated.

Yeah, that would have to be requested, and unless you have some truly brilliant RP I sincerely doubt the DMs would ever allow that.

i see how all of that has to do with the rules already in place. i for one am not good on the amia rules, just on the pnp rulings. im also not a huge fan of the sub race aasimar here, prefering human.
would it be possible for my PC to have been granted the gift of flight for performing some quest given to him by his god? id LOVE to make this into a DM quest

No. If you're human, your race is human. None of this "I liked the human bonuses better but really I'm an Aasimar."

Take your race. No wings. no flight. No half celestial nonsense. No "Child of a god".

then what is the point of having 15 DCs and one character, well 2 but one of them has nothing to do with this. seams kind of lame. not to mention that my brainstorming ideas to make my character different shouldnt be met so harshly, im the first one to help the dms by not being an ass.

I believe you need to make a request to play a half-celestial before actually starting to play it.

EDIT: They fall in the Platinum Request category, for being special. Alongside Dragons, Undead, Psionics and such. It is on the Rules & Lore forum.

right, thats perfectly understandable. no need to change the race or anything. but also if the DMs see to it that i simply "accept" my race and get nothing else then whats the difference between my wanting to indepth RP this to someone simply taking 10 RDD levels and having free wings? i would never take RDD for that, its lame...

Here: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=342692#342692

tsukasa1991 wrote:

right, thats perfectly understandable. no need to change the race or anything. but also if the DMs see to it that i simply "accept" my race and get nothing else then whats the difference between my wanting to indepth RP this to someone simply taking 10 RDD levels and having free wings? i would never take RDD for that, its lame...

You can RP your character as believing that, but that does not mean it will be true.

Also, you should understand if other PCs refuse to acknowledge your PCs' origins, if s/he ever speaks about it.

my PCs origins are fairly well known and also the whole simply squeezing in something to my backstory wouldnt work. having him believe something thats not true would also be kind of out there considering he is a paly, hates lies and i also want this to be 100% legit. if theres -no- lore acurate way to put wings on him other than changing his race then fine, i wotn argue. but the way i see it is that the gods have the ability to grant mortals certain things, this could be one of them in return for some task completed. i dont see that as being too much to ask for... not to mention that if only the races or clases meant to have wings got them (such as half celestials, avians, dragon desciples...) then it would break my idea and also feel like PCs are set into pre designed molds.
I want my PC to be seen as a paragon among men, even if it means no real change, other than a cosmedic one showing a trophy for his valor.

Amia does not accept children of Gods.

Your paladin PC does not know IC everything you know OoC. He can beleive whatever he is led to beleive IC. Just because he beleives it does not demand that it be treated as truth OoC, however.

There is a policy on not shifting races. It's nothing about "PCs have to have a pre-mold", its a general policy that keeps people from rebuilding into a race just because it makes them stronger in an aspect. It is nothing personal to your idea or character. There is no changing of race.

Wings are not given upon justification of they're "just given by a god", firstly for the purpose of it being "too easy" an explanation, and secondly because of the flight widget and it's implications.

He can be as much a paragon as you want. But you have to accept that this particular PC is human, has always been a human, and will continue to be one. In a personal PnP, 5 player party, yeah, shifting races, godchildren, etc are fine, but it's just not feasible on a large RP server to allow such things except in extremely rare cases, thus Amia's rules on those subjects. Again, it is nothing personal, and if you feel you idea is stellar and grammy worthy, feel free to convince the DM team otherwise with RP and your story, but just know that the standing policies give the firm answer of "No."

Note: I am not a DM. I do not speak for the DM's. I do beleive I have a relatively good understanding of PC racial policy on Amia.

alright. if theres no apparent way to make it fit i will spend my DCs another way. i personally think there are ways to make it happen without race shifts, amnesia plots, child of god stories, or anything like that.

Even if you wish it to be granted by a god, you will probably need to talk to the DMs.

As DI said, you need to convince them why your PC deserves it.

Bear in mind, though, that the DMs do not usually approve a player speaking as a NPC. Especially not powerful PCs like gods.

Only the DMs decide the actions of gods. Never the players. Unless in the case you probably got approval to claim that a god did something for your PC.

You do not need to dismiss your PC's entire story. DI already gave you good reasons and suggestions, so whatever else I would say would be only echoing his words.

For instance, one of my PCs believes that he is the Chosen of a god, but was never one. It is just what he believes and for a while he tried to convince his fellow PCs about that.

One PC was in doubt, others scoffed at the notion and so on. OOC, I did not get mad at anyone because I knew he was not a chosen. And IC, my PC simply believed them afraid to accept that truth.

Your PC does not need to have the knowledge that you, as a player, does. You can RP him believing that he is a godchild and he would not be lying. It would only be his belief.

it sounds too fishy to me for this character but i know exactly how you mean
my other character is a gobo mage who thinks his powers come from demons. its yet to be seen if they do or not but mechanically it doesnt much matter. IC he is nuts, but OoC hes just doing what he believes.
for this PC though i would prefer a DM to ok a quest type thing saying i have permission to get these wings. of course I as a player cant speak for tyr but it would be best if there was an actual reason for his getting this, not just what he made up in his own mind. plus -he- isnt crazy. i might be =] but thats different.

The lines between insanity, zeal and conviction are often blurred and sometimes nonexistent ones. :wink:

In other words, he doesn't have to be "crazy". As you said, he's just doing what he believes....people will likely call him crazy, however, but meh, what do they know. He's the god-son of Tyr and a celestial as far as he's considered.

But that's where it has to end, however. You OoCly can't expect anything to come of it, on the divine end of the equation.

oh well he is tyr then =] in human form. and also he is a lion too. yup lol.
but id rather just leave him be and spend the DCs another way. maybe ill make one of those broken over used RDDs. kidding. id never make one of those.

What race or Subrace are the Wiltun people? Or the Endir's point people?

Wiltun folk are what Ruathym/Luskan folk generally are. I thought it might be Illuskan, though the Northmen are also Illuskan. It might be that the Northmen have evolved and tamed into the pirates and merchants of modern Luskan and Ruathym, but they're definetely not the same wave of settlers as the original Northmen of Ruathym who moved on to Moonshae. Most people of the North, even civilized ones, appear to be Illuskan. On the mainland south of the Spine of the World, Illuskans have dark hair as opposed to the blond Icewind Dalers and seafarers.

Endir's Point are mostly settlers from the North and the Sword Coast, as well as the Trackless Sea, I suppose. Mostly Illuskan.

With regards to Guldorandi folks, where would they hail from originally?

Guldorand or Mulhorandi? Guldoran's people are probably permanent loggers from Kohlingen and Cordor who live there to work.

*nodnods* Alright, cool. Guldorand was what I was looking for actually.

Can't seem to find much lore on Oni, could someone lend me a hand?

Oni? As in, the demon variety Oni?

*ahem*

"Oni are the most fearsome denizens of the Shadowlands, fiends of unmitigated evil and terror. They are outsiders native to the Shadowlands, having all the qualities of both outsiders and Shadowlands creatures. Oni come in apparently limitless varieties, as well as a vast number of unique individuals. The bulk of an oni horde is composed of a great number of oni belonging to the comon species: Akuma, Ashi, Byoki, Gekido, Haino, Kyoso, Sanru, Shikibu, Tsuburu, Ugulu, Tattoko, and other types yet to be named. These are the most common oni horrors of the Shadowlands. Leading these hordes, or working alone, are a large number of unique oni. These include four oni lords who spawned some of the common varieties: Akuma (slain during the Battle at Oblivion's Gate), Tsuburu, Shikibu, and Kyoso. The "elemental terrors" also fall into this category: Moetechi and Taki-bi (fire); Yosuchi and Kaze (air); Toichi and Jimen (earth); Oyuchi and Mizu (water); and Kukanchi and Akeru (void).

Finally, rumors among the Crab guardians of the Kaiu Wall suggest that a new form of oni has appeared in the Shadowlands, possibly filling the power vacuum left by the demise of Fu Leng. These oni "overlords" are perhaps a half-dozen in number, and their fearsome might is incalculable. It may have been one such oni overlord that sler the Emperor Toturi in Shinomen forest. Survivors of the battle described that oni as standing about 8 feet all, muscular and covered with plates of red armor. It had four huge arms, one casually carrying a gigantic greatsword (no-dachi). Its high head was frilled with spines like a crown, and a long mustache drooped over its mouth. And it cut down the emperor with a single stroke.

All Shadowlands oni speak Shadowlands and Rokugani (Common)." - Oriental Adventures

Essentially, Oni and the Shadowlands are the oriental campaign's equivalent to Demons (yes, demons, not devils) and the Abyss. They're ranked in a number of species, as listed, and each is unique. All are considered Outsiders, as would be expected.

Hope that helped some?

That really did help, thanks a lot.

Was having an interesting discussion in-character regarding the Pact Primeval.

I know this was a pact between the deities of law, as well as Asmodeus, who at the time was a celestial, I think.

He, in the pact, screwed with the fine print so that not only would he punish those that were wicked, but he would also gain power from them. Therefore, instead of scaring mortals from committing sins, he tempted them into it, so that he could punish them and grow in power.

However, I was led to believe that the Pact Primeval was a Greyhawk thing, not Forgotten Realms, since the deities have a habit of dying off in the Realms and getting replaced, which would make a lot of the signatures on the pact no longer valid. Of note are the fact that many of the lawful Gods, such as Tyr, were not in the Realms before the existence of the hells and similar.

I'm left wondering how it applies, if at all, to the Forgotten Realms?

I thought that Ao decided how souls would be used by the deities, as opposed to a divine pact. If a divine pact is the case, is Asmodeus more powerful than Bane, the most powerful of the lawful evil gods, and who, in a cosmological sense, is very young, having once been mortal?

My take on it is rather simple. (I was also the person who mentioned it ic.):

Seeing it only mentions Greyhawk deities it is definetly greyhawk. There is no Forgotten Realms counterpart to that story (please correct me if I am wrong.). Pretty much my character uses this "theory, story" wether it is real or not in FR and claims it to be. Seeing the nine hells are a few millenia old, its a tad hard for any character to claim wether that is true or not, especially as they do not have access to the books we do.

Phearnun wrote:

My take on it is rather simple. (I was also the person who mentioned it ic.):

Seeing it only mentions Greyhawk deities it is definetly greyhawk. There is no Forgotten Realms counterpart to that story (please correct me if I am wrong.). Pretty much my character uses this "theory, story" wether it is real or not in FR and claims it to be. Seeing the nine hells are a few millenia old, its a tad hard for any character to claim wether that is true or not, especially as they do not have access to the books we do.

Right, that's exactly what I thought.

Shame the server rebooted there, though, since my character was going to mention that Lathander is neither a deity of law, nor old enough to have taken part in any such story.

Your character has a very nice lore/intelligence/wisdom score to back up that extreme cosmological knowledge, I hope.

The Lore Question Thread

Who is online