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Dwagin
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 Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 2:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Living your life vicariously through a character in a fantasy world isn't healthy.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 2:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Gotta say, the idea of perma-death because of lag sucks. So I can see why people are against the idea.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 2:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Speaking from a multitude of DM Experiences here - PnP, NwN, and Amia alike.
The more emotionally attached a player is to their character, the less they can even grasp the concept that they might lose, and the less likely they are to even be able to accept the fact that they aren't The God Of The Multiverse.
Becoming overly attached to something results in player bias. People metagame to protect their characters, they grow emotional when their precious little character has something bad happen to them, and they usually throw a fit when they lose and it doesn't fit their pre-concieved notion of 'fair'.
Not to mention, Dwagin brings up a big point.
Btw - I'd not see Permadeath in PvM or -most- PvP (extrenuating circumstances, maybe, but I really mean extrenuating severe 'not the likes we usually see' severe). More as Yossi mentioend it earlier - the risk/reward in certain plots. When it's plainly obvious.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 2:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Sure, DM events should have perma-death risks. After all, your not going into a situation you have control of. You are risking your life to go on a magnicifent adventure of epic proportions that could possibly end in death, or great rewards. The premese (probably spelt it wrong), of every single adventure since whenever.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Scimiter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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Now I've noted a complete lack of talking about Respawn here. As OOC as it is there still has to be a IC reasoning for it and as I play it Gods decided that it's not your PCs time to die and kick him back into life. Planning on taking that away as well? Cause that's just as much a player choice as well as perma.
Also there was alot of talk about people not using it enough and waiting for a raise just last week to avoid penalties. You think that they had a problem with losing a bit of exp and gold how is the player base going to react to more losses if they are put into place?
I'd also like to point out that there have been at least seven people so far, myself included, that have pointedly stated that such changes would change the very reasons that we picked this server in the first place. Little known fact about forums on hard topics like these is that for every one that speaks out there's five more that are not even going to say anything and just quietly slip away when it happens.
I really urge the DM/Dev team to put this aside cause if it goes through the playerbase is going to take a hit in attendance. You might get a new generation of players that enjoy the new Amia after a time. As I understand it this has been talked about before and discarded already before. I say just find the old post, link to it and lock this thread.
_________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel 
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DolphinRacer
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington
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Eh I think it's a little late to be instituting permadeath here, and I'd limit it to the DM stuff, I think it would piss off more people than it might keep here in the long run. But I'll roll with whatever happens. I think I'll still like the server either way personally and as I'm admittedly somewhat selfish that's all that really matters to me.
_________________
Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!
Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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WonWon wrote: Btw - I'd not see Permadeath in PvM or -most- PvP (extrenuating circumstances, maybe, but I really mean extrenuating severe 'not the likes we usually see' severe). More as Yossi mentioend it earlier - the risk/reward in certain plots. When it's plainly obvious.
Isn't that more of an 'optional permadeath' though? A DM could just say "If you wish to participate in this event, you agree to the possibility of permadeath", and tat thought of thing I am fine with.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I believe that after nearly four pages in this thread we have a significantly unified response. Thus far, it is "no" to permadeath, but "yes" to something that makes players stop and think about their PCs' actions before they are taken.
And Dark Immolation, you aren't in sync with the rest of the playerbase. Which is not a bad thing, because neither am I. But the fact is that those adventurers who want to overthrow an entire government should be given consequences to face that you don't want them to be given. You use the example of PCs walking into a demilich's tower, but that is highly disingenuous to the real use of the permadeath threat.
It is used when a PC or a group of PCs embarks blindly, suddenly, and without advance warning upon a course of action where the odds are very much stacked against them and they know it (because we tell them), and the results of their success will force us to make sudden and drastic alterations to the module almost immediately to appease their desire to "affect" or "shape" the server, as Didi put it.
"DM, I am at the gates of Ultrinnan, and I am ready to storm it and take the entire city over."
"...all right. You are one man and the odds are dramatically stacked against you. Are you certain you wish to proceed? If so, you will engage every NPC thrown at you in combat, and any PC that happens to come forth as well, either now or at some later point; when they die, I will have them die permanently. When you die, so will you. Permanently."
"Oh. Maybe I should come up with a plan. And maybe roleplay with some other PCs to help me out!"
"Now you're thinking."
Therefore, you see, the threat of permadeath actually encourages roleplay on the server. 
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Yossarin wrote: "DM, I am at the gates of Ultrinnan, and I am ready to storm it and take the entire city over." "...all right. You are one man and the odds are dramatically stacked against you. Are you certain you wish to proceed? If so, you will engage every NPC thrown at you in combat, and any PC that happens to come forth as well, either now or at some later point; when they die, I will have them die permanently. When you die, so will you. Permanently." "Oh. Maybe I should come up with a plan. And maybe roleplay with some other PCs to help me out!" "Now you're thinking." Therefore, you see, the threat of permadeath actually encourages roleplay on the server. To me that's optional permadeath, though - a DM saying "If you want to do this event you can, but if you die you die permanently." That sort of thing I am fine with. I think it's a good idea. Last couple of times I've been in a DM event (with Jhae and Enhed) I have offered the posibility of my character dying forever.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:24 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Selvec Darkon wrote: It then comes down to choosing what is more important, sticking with the older players, or attracting newer players.
I should hope it would be the former, as a server policy. As a server, we have to address it. Which is more important:
Keeping true to the people that have continually contributed and invested in it over the years, or attracting new players, because keeping numbers up may mean a better server somehow.
It's an honest question to be posed. It's my feeling that a certain number of players, new or old, does not gaurantee anything being better. Focusing on the quality of what we already has does, however. If anyone has some points on how player numbers translate directly to player enjoyment, then I'm all ears. Why is "attracting players" seemingly so important?
To be honest, I see multiple parallels between the discussion on Amia turning "hardcore" in general and the apparent discussion that never went on at WotC headquarter's before 4E was shipped and packaged.
I personally wouldn't care if there was an option for the player to have a mark of death token like Arelith at creation. Firstly, because it is the player that is still deciding in that case, an secondly because it's a creation, not thrown in somewhere down the line. But there would have to be no "bonuses" for having it. Again, guilt-tripping what needs not be guilt-tripped. But in truth, why bother at that point? People already have the ability to permakill their character when they feel like it, some OoC chip or token does nothing to help squat. As well, the OoC "elitism" that may arise because of something that really doesn't matter.
We have to remember that as a server brancing out is fine. But we should not do so at the expense of alientating people that have already been along for the ride since we got started. In such cases, we're making a huge investment today and risking loosing what we already have in hopes somewhere down the road we'll get more, but it's not at all gauranteed. It wouldn't be good business, and it certainly wouldn't be good server policy. Buying on margin and deficit spending have no place on the internetz.
As well, tell me, where are these players we're going to "attract" come from? Are they just going to materialize? Are people who've never even seen NWN just waiting for a breakthrough hardcore server to pop up somewhere? No. They're already out there playing the hardcore servers. They're out there just as equally invested and dedicated to their Hardcore server as Amians are to our server as it is. I'm telling you, if anything, by trying to change to server to "get more players" we'd likely loose the ones we already have and split the audience of the hardcore servers already running.
To quote a juicing Russian super-boxer, "If he dies, he dies." I'm in no position to speak for the whole server, but I'm completely willing to accept that somewhere down the line, Amia might have a few less people playing. Maybe so, maybe not. Player numbers fluctuate, and they may fluctuate over the given course of months. No one makes a monetary profit off of Amia anyway, there's no need to act like we "can't afford" to do right by our playerbase.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I stated from my first post in this thread, Yurell, that any permadeath I offer is optional, rather than forced. And to be honest, I've never had to do that. It is just something I keep in my back pocket, as necessary. With the very large plot I am running currently, the stakes are very, very high - but the RP of the players is also quality, and they are treating the situation as deadly and dangerous. I have absolutely no need to put permadeath on the table to frighten them.
I believe they're already scared enough, seeing what they've seen that no one else sees...
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:30 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Yossarin wrote: But the fact is that those adventurers who want to overthrow an entire government should be given consequences to face that you don't want them to be given. You use the example of PCs walking into a demilich's tower, but that is highly disingenuous to the real use of the permadeath threat.
I would ask you to explain how permadeath serves the purpose of discouraging such actions better than harsher death penalties.
Harsher death penalties including DM's saying and enforcing "You can't log back in with this character for X amount of time."
It's penalty versus punishment at that point.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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*loses character for X time*
*just plays another character for the duration and honestly doesn't care too much*
*zero real loss, zero real penalty, zero risk, zero danger, zero effect*
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Scimiter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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And for the people that only play one PC Ron? That only have the skill to play one or the time to only play one?
_________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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You mean people like myself, who only play one character?
Easy.
Character dies. I accept that I've had a -hell- of a lot of fun with him over the time I've played him, be happy that such a story has presumably reached its apex - and then it's climactic end (given, y'know, it'd be occuring in a plot/event as Yossi and I have been talking about) fitting for the character.
To quote my DM;
"You are dead. Roll 4d6."
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:42 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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WonWon wrote: *loses character for X time*
*just plays another character for the duration and honestly doesn't care too much*
*zero real loss, zero real penalty, zero risk, zero danger, zero effect*
*loses character permanently*
*just hastily creates another character with basically the same story, history, build, different name and could care less.*
*Character loss, penalty enforced, "percieved risk", "percieved danger", same inefficiency.*
Unless you're going to police all character creation too. In which case, why not tell people who they are, what race, and everthing else. Don't want people getting attached to them.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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The difference. You make the new character, they simply won't be the old one. They won't have their previous accomplishments, they won't have their previous flaws, and they certainly won't have all of their previous connections.
Sure, you could make the same thing over again - but are Amian Players really that personally involved with their characters that it becomes the only thing they can play? Never to try something new? To accept change?
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Dark Immolation wrote: WonWon wrote: *loses character for X time*
*just plays another character for the duration and honestly doesn't care too much*
*zero real loss, zero real penalty, zero risk, zero danger, zero effect* *loses character permanently* *just hastily creates another character with basically the same story, history, build, different name and could care less.* *Character loss, penalty enforced, "percieved risk", "percieved danger", same inefficiency.* Unless you're going to police all character creation too. In which case, why not tell people who they are, what race, and everthing else. Don't want people getting attached to them. *Watches the seventeenth brother die, just in time for the eighteenth to come waltzing in*
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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So true, Yurell. So true.
Sad thing is, it already happens anyway. Quite a few people just recycle the same character over and over and over. Makes you wonder if they can play something else, or if they even -are- playing something other than themselves with a shiny mask.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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ticket
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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Do DMs have the power to perma death a character as long as the player agrees to the terms?
If yes, then why not try running quests/adventures that has a disclaimer that perma death is on. That those who don't want See who would join in and those who won't. I know I would sign up for it.
It doesn't have to be plot related that could change the Amia island permanently, just an adventure for an adventuring party. Helps avoid the feeling of elitism.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Dark Immolation wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: It then comes down to choosing what is more important, sticking with the older players, or attracting newer players. I should hope it would be the former, as a server policy. As a server, we have to address it. Which is more important: Keeping true to the people that have continually contributed and invested in it over the years, or attracting new players, because keeping numbers up may mean a better server somehow. It's an honest question to be posed. It's my feeling that a certain number of players, new or old, does not gaurantee anything being better. Focusing on the quality of what we already has does, however. If anyone has some points on how player numbers translate directly to player enjoyment, then I'm all ears. Why is "attracting players" seemingly so important? To be honest, I see multiple parallels between the discussion on Amia turning "hardcore" in general and the apparent discussion that never went on at WotC headquarter's before 4E was shipped and packaged. I personally wouldn't care if there was an option for the player to have a mark of death token like Arelith at creation. Firstly, because it is the player that is still deciding in that case, an secondly because it's a creation, not thrown in somewhere down the line. But there would have to be no "bonuses" for having it. Again, guilt-tripping what needs not be guilt-tripped. But in truth, why bother at that point? People already have the ability to permakill their character when they feel like it, some OoC chip or token does nothing to help squat. As well, the OoC "elitism" that may arise because of something that really doesn't matter. We have to remember that as a server brancing out is fine. But we should not do so at the expense of alientating people that have already been along for the ride since we got started. In such cases, we're making a huge investment today and risking loosing what we already have in hopes somewhere down the road we'll get more, but it's not at all gauranteed. It wouldn't be good business, and it certainly wouldn't be good server policy. Buying on margin and deficit spending have no place on the internetz. As well, tell me, where are these players we're going to "attract" come from? Are they just going to materialize? Are people who've never even seen NWN just waiting for a breakthrough hardcore server to pop up somewhere? No. They're already out there playing the hardcore servers. They're out there just as equally invested and dedicated to their Hardcore server as Amians are to our server as it is. I'm telling you, if anything, by trying to change to server to "get more players" we'd likely loose the ones we already have and split the audience of the hardcore servers already running. To quote a juicing Russian super-boxer, "If he dies, he dies." I'm in no position to speak for the whole server, but I'm completely willing to accept that somewhere down the line, Amia might have a few less people playing. Maybe so, maybe not. Player numbers fluctuate, and they may fluctuate over the given course of months. No one makes a monetary profit off of Amia anyway, there's no need to act like we "can't afford" to do right by our playerbase. I believe server policy has always been to attract new players. Old players being more likely to leave when real life catches up, making them an investment not really worth going with.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
Last edited by Selvec Darkon on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:53 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Somewhat, yes. Unless there's a big reward, though, no one seems really up for it.
I'm honestly of the persuasion that there are some circumstances not -directly- plot/event related where someone should stay dead, with or without the permission of the player, btw. And to give an example of what I mean by actual extrenuating circumstances;
If the Big Bad Evil Guy gets banned from Cordor. Then keeps coming back. Killed. Comes back. Killed. Comes back. Killed. Comes back. To the point where it becomes stupid - I'd say next time he comes back, it's "Killed; Stays Dead".
The sort of "You did something extremely epic stupid despite n+1 IC warnings, hints, advisals, and every blatantly obvious piece of evidence before you..And you still did it?" situation.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:54 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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WonWon wrote: The difference. You make the new character, they simply won't be the old one. They won't have their previous accomplishments, they won't have their previous flaws, and they certainly won't have all of their previous connections. Does it matter if my character "died" on their first DM quest? Or is the solution to that only only to kill off accomplished players who've been here a while, as simply permadeathing a character because it would cause someone to cringe? In any case, if you're implimenting permadeath to make people "act accordingly", it should be enforced the same at all levels. So why not killing me on my first DM quest, it's only fair. WonWon wrote: Sure, you could make the same thing over again - but are Amian Players really that personally involved with their characters that it becomes the only thing they can play? Never to try something new? To accept change?
To be blunt, yes. Change, if any, on such a huge subject must come from the player, not the server. Is creation of the character less important than the character's final end?
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The Peacock
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Location: Patrollink ze borderz! Wo ist das Hahn!?
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Why not increase the xp penalty whilst reducing xp gained for x amount of time after being raised. Increases the stakes of keeping your life in dire situations, and makes it difficult for powergamers to powergame their way through monstrous hordes of villains with nigh on unlimited scrolls.
_________________  'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Dark Immolation wrote: Yossarin wrote: But the fact is that those adventurers who want to overthrow an entire government should be given consequences to face that you don't want them to be given. You use the example of PCs walking into a demilich's tower, but that is highly disingenuous to the real use of the permadeath threat. I would ask you to explain how permadeath serves the purpose of discouraging such actions better than harsher death penalties. Harsher death penalties including DM's saying and enforcing "You can't log back in with this character for X amount of time." It's penalty versus punishment at that point. There is no explanation, really. It is just one of those natural laws of the universe. But Ron provides a decent explanation there.
On a side note, death penalties are purely an OOC mechanism, especially if we have to do what you want us to do and constantly monitor the situation to ensure it is being enforced. You want me to be spending my time checking the server to make sure the PC never logged in instead of tidying things up on the forum or running events in game? You want me to spend my personal time checking back through the server's logs to see whether someone violated our purely verbal agreement? You sadist! Way to make our jobs even harder!
Archiving the PC with a sense of (suggested) finality requires very little effort and is perfectly IC - it means you died. Which happens.
Still, I am fond of Didi's death penalties because unlike Dark Immolation's demands, they don't require me to do three times the work.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 3:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Dark Immolation wrote: WonWon wrote: The difference. You make the new character, they simply won't be the old one. They won't have their previous accomplishments, they won't have their previous flaws, and they certainly won't have all of their previous connections. Does it matter if my character "died" on their first DM quest? Or is the solution to that only only to kill off accomplished players who've been here a while, as simply permadeathing a character because it would cause someone to cringe? In any case, if you're implimenting permadeath to make people "act accordingly", it should be enforced the same at all levels. So why not killing me on my first DM quest, it's only fair. Nice strawman, but it doesn't hold up. The argument is simply in regards to people making up the same character. When really, they can't. It's impossible to make the same character twice unless you reuse actual character itself (which requires a DM Clearance, since you can only have one version of any character). Dark Immolation wrote: WonWon wrote: Sure, you could make the same thing over again - but are Amian Players really that personally involved with their characters that it becomes the only thing they can play? Never to try something new? To accept change? To be blunt, yes. Change, if any, on such a huge subject must come from the player, not the server. Is creation of the character less important than the character's final end? Then the situation has gotten to the point where that needs to be changed. This isn't The Amia Show Starring [Your Character Name Here], where that character, despite anything they may do, any mistakes they make, any idiotic actions they perform, or any of the rest somehow always manages to make it out alive.
People need to accept that they aren't the star of the show. No one is. And ultimately bad things do happen in the setting, and sometimes (rather, alot of the time) it's brought by someone's own action.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:00 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Selvec Darkon wrote: I believe server policy has always been to attract new players. Old players being more likely to leave when real life catches up, making them an investment not really worth going with.
If our single charge as a server is to "Keep up with the Joneses", then implimenting forced permadeath, turning hardcore, and implimenting whatever new trend comes along regardless of in whom we've already invested are definetly steps in the right* direction.
*right not to be confused with correct and/or logical.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Dark Immolation wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: I believe server policy has always been to attract new players. Old players being more likely to leave when real life catches up, making them an investment not really worth going with. If our single charge as a server is to "Keep up with the Joneses", then implimenting forced permadeath, turning hardcore, and implimenting whatever new trend comes along regardless of in whom we've already invested are definetly steps in the right* direction. *right not to be confused with correct and/or logical. Well, if that's the case Amia shouldn't exist, as Amia was the players of Arelith going with trends they liked, as opposed to the playerbase staying with the old trends being enforced.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:07 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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WonWon wrote: Nice strawman, but it doesn't hold up. The argument is simply in regards to people making up the same character. When really, they can't. It's impossible to make the same character twice unless you reuse actual character itself (which requires a DM Clearance, since you can only have one version of any character). You can "make the same character" without making choosing the same name, you realize. Choose a new name, make up a new heritage, change some names around. Live vicariously, and prosper. WonWon wrote: Then the situation has gotten to the point where that needs to be changed. This isn't The Amia Show Starring [Your Character Name Here], where that character, despite anything they may do, any mistakes they make, any idiotic actions they perform, or any of the rest somehow always manages to make it out alive.
People need to accept that they aren't the star of the show. No one is. And ultimately bad things do happen in the setting, and sometimes (rather, alot of the time) it's brought by someone's own action.
No one's asking to be the star of anything. We're asking that we be left with the remote in our hand: to decide when to turn it on and turn it off, when to join and when to take our leave. We play to interact, not to allowed to interact and then told when we must stop interacting forever. Perhaps indefinetly, but not forever.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:11 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Well, if that's the case Amia shouldn't exist, as Amia was the players of Arelith going with trends they liked, as opposed to the playerbase staying with the old trends being enforced.
There was a difference in general opinions, from what I understand, not just one issue. I wasn't around for it, only going off of heresay, unfortunately. If anything, we'd actually be splitting "back" to whence we came. What's the reasoning behind turning us back into Arelith if the freedom from "hardcore" was the whole reason we made Amia in the first place?
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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You miss the new character point entirely.
You can make a clone of your previous character with a new name, sure. But they won't have the following things;
The friends they've made on Amia.
The achievements they've made so far on Amia.
Their losses.
Their wins.
Their developmental quirks and story arcs.
And all the rest.
Unless you seriously do make the exact same character and try sneak past by using the same name, and telling your mates "This is really character X". Most people who do this get caught.
In regards to having the remote in your hand - name me any game that does. Any. Any game that allows you to choose whether you win or lose, whether you stay dead or live. These are all factors as determined by the game's own rules.
The most you get in computer games is an effective "Pause" and "Reset" button. Which still robs you of any progress you made after these points. And that isn't viable in a Persistent World since that's hardly persistent.
You don't get to choose whether or not to go to Jail when you land on the tile in Monopoly. You also don't get to force the roulette table to finish on your number. You don't get to automatically win when fighting the final boss in Baldur's Gate. And you certainly can't run head first into every Koopa in Super Mario and expect to reach the end of the game. You don't to control your Credits Count in Red Alert so you can afford the supplies to win - just because you wasted them all on getting your Tech Center out first.
Rules, Setting, Structure, all of these things are not in control of the player and are in fact in control of the person who either creates, supervises, maintains, or controls said factors.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Dark Immolation wrote: No one's asking to be the star of anything. We're asking that we be left with the remote in our hand: to decide when to turn it on and turn it off, when to join and when to take our leave.
To decide when to put the DM on mute when you don't fancy the potential consequences because you don't want to deal with them, or to do the same to your fellow players when they want to be involved, too. To decide when to change the channel when what you're watching doesn't have the ending you think it should have. To decide when to press rewind on the controller when you want to retcon things that don't go your way, or fast forward to skip scenes that don't involve you.
Oh yes, we understand very well what it means to have that remote in your hand.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:21 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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It may be the weirdest metaphor I've yet made, but here goes:
I'd rather have a TV than an aquarium.
One gives me a great deal of imput, yes, but at least its better than being expected to watch a dynamic, everchanging, colorful world in which I'm expected to have very little say. Selfish, I know. But it is my time, after all.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Solution.
Buy a TV.
Not an Aquarium.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Touché, Dark!
But I must argue that fish in an aquarium do have a lot of say in their environment! The more you crap in it, the dirtier the water gets. You can devour the smaller, weaker fish until the owner buys more and puts them in. You can become a beautiful prize fish and make the owner love you so much that he builds castles, sunken treasure chests, coral reefs, and unlucky divers into your aquatic kingdom for you to oggle, bite, brush up against, or take a dump on.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:26 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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WonWon wrote: Solution.
Buy a TV.
Not an Aquarium.
I did buy a TV. A lot of Amians did. But it's being suggested we fill it with water and find some guppies. Because aquariums are more realistic than TV's. Sadly, escape from realism was the whole reason we support our TV.
I love metaphors.
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maglorine
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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My point of view:
DM Events - Permadeath is ALWAYS possible. By participating in the Event you are relinquishing the right to solely determine your characters fate. You will be warned of this. Rewards are high to compensate for the risk. This includes increased DC rewards, Divine Mythals, Epic Loot, whatever. This is where fate favors the bold. World changers and name makers live here, and potentially die here.
PvP - In general I favor no permadeath, but with the following suggestion. The idea would be to install a "Circle of Judgement" and "Death Challenge" system for PvP where Death is Permanent. You would be able to challenge one or more other PC's to a Duel in the "Circle of Judgement", maybe locate this in Actand or something. You would need to check thru an NPC for entry and agree to the rules on permadeath. Could be 1 vs 1, 5 vs 5, or 2 vs 3 as long as all agreed. Any PC Death in the "Circle" would result in the soul of the PC being immediately whisked away to "Judgement" irrevocably. In this way it's voluntary. The winners? They get the glory and perhaps a certificate of accomplishment to display on their wall. A nice bit of IC notoriety and glory. Make sure there is a grandstand for spectators.
You also have the option of ridiculing the opposing PC ICly if they decline as not having the "mettle" to back up their convictions, and being a weak-kneed, candyarse, mommasboy, loudmouth, all talk no action, wuss who ran from the fight when the stakes were high and the chips were down. In other words, if you decide to play a PC who thrives on conflict but never ever let your pc risk permadeath, then fine, you don't, but there are IC roleplay consequences of playing it safe. Don't play a character that gets into conflicts? Then no problems for you.
PvM - Heavier losses. I like some of the ideas presented already. Uncapped gold loss. Long and increasing waits in the Fugue Plane while waiting for a Raise. Raise Dead fatigue weakening you for x number of resets, setting your abilities far lower until the time expires. Resurrection halves the fatigue time.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Actually, your metaphor breaks down again.
We're not telling you trade your TV for an aquarium.
We're telling you to stop fighting over the damn remote and to instead simply enjoy what's on and take it for what it is.
You need to remember. There are well over 100 other players here. And nothing affects only one character.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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But I want to play a DvD
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Dark Immolation wrote: WonWon wrote: Solution.
Buy a TV.
Not an Aquarium. I did buy a TV. A lot of Amians did. But it's being suggested we fill it with water and find some guppies. Because aquariums are more realistic than TV's. Sadly, escape from realism was the whole reason we support our TV. I love metaphors. A fair point. But when you control the remote, we DMs become obsolete. You want absolute command of your own story from top to bottom, in and out, your birth, life, and death, your successes, victories, and failures, your challenges and tea parties, who you interact with and whom you don't. Ironically, to be in complete control of your own surprises.
What role do you envision for your fellow players? Supporting cast?
What role do you envision for your DMs? The ones in the kitchen fetching you Mountain Dew and cheetos?
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Guxx
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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The only way I'd approve forced permadeath is if the DM team could find a way to make every PC death meaningful or memorable....
Only way I'd feel comfortable letting go of the control I have over my character would be if he died in a way that was, to me, cool enough to warrant him actually staying dead.
DM plot? Sure thing, so long as I was a major player in it. Faction War? Sure, so long as the actual battle held some significance. PVP dispute? Sure, just has to be something with some meaning to it.
What it basically comes down to is... I don't play a hero/villain to just die and vanish off the face of the earth cause I made a bad roll in some cave or cause a bandit got a lucky shot off on me.
_________________
Dran 'Brick' Do'ani - The Half-Drow
"Hey, who you calling un-chrasimatic?"
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Selvec Darkon wrote: But I want to play a DvD
And you can! Until we begin incorporating haks, at which point we upgrade to BluRay.
"I'm sorry, but you're going to need to purchase this HDMI cable and a flatscreen television before you can truly appreciate the wonders of Amia BluRay."
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Yossarin wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: But I want to play a DvD And you can! Until we begin incorporating haks, at which point we upgrade to BluRay. "I'm sorry, but you're going to need to purchase this HDMI cable and a flatscreen television before you can truly appreciate the wonders of Amia BluRay." And surround sound! With a beer holder's and an Xbox360!
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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ainjyll
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Something that makes death a little more relevant I'm all for, but forcing permadeath is a horrible option and I don't even think it's something that's really worth even thinking about.
Some sort of system that leaves your corpse behind and allows people to raise you or makes your "soul" sit in the Fugue for X# of resets or whatever before you can respawn would be interesting.
If an individual player want's a bit more realism in their RP, then it should be left up to them to permakill their character. In no way should that choice lie in the hands of anyone other than the one that created that character. As has been said, the player base of Amia is getting older... this means that ideally, they should be getting more mature as well and should be allowed to make these types of choices for themselves.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Guxx wrote: The only way I'd approve forced permadeath is if the DM team could find a way to make every PC death meaningful or memorable....
Only way I'd feel comfortable letting go of the control I have over my character would be if he died in a way that was, to me, cool enough to warrant him actually staying dead.
DM plot? Sure thing, so long as I was a major player in it. Faction War? Sure, so long as the actual battle held some significance. PVP dispute? Sure, just has to be something with some meaning to it.
What it basically comes down to is... I don't play a hero/villain to just die and vanish off the face of the earth cause I made a bad roll in some cave or cause a bandit got a lucky shot off on me.
Your reasoning, Guxx, is mine. That is why I keep putting permadeath on the table as an option, and not a forced thing. Even throwing it out there as a threat encourages people to think, to plot, to plan, to perform a variety of actions that inevitably contribute to the meaningfulness of their own demise...through the RP they engage in with the knowledge that they actually might not have their finger on the remote control...
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Grymia
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Yossarin wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: But I want to play a DvD And you can! Until we begin incorporating haks, at which point we upgrade to BluRay. "I'm sorry, but you're going to need to purchase this HDMI cable and a flatscreen television before you can truly appreciate the wonders of Amia BluRay." TV metaphors aside.. I think I prefer the potential for things other then a pre-determined script to happen myself.
The way Warrick ended wasn't exactly how I'd have scripted it let me assure you. But, it was how it happened so.. I ran with it.
And now Isense, a Shark jumping reference will be thrown in for humour
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Yossarin wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: But I want to play a DvD And you can! Until we begin incorporating haks, at which point we upgrade to BluRay. "I'm sorry, but you're going to need to purchase this HDMI cable and a flatscreen television before you can truly appreciate the wonders of Amia BluRay." And surround sound! With a beer holder's and an Xbox360!  I do not have enough money. Eventually, I will be unable to afford it and will have to give it up. Anyway! Just to be on topic! *coughs* My opinion remains the same, but I am still right here in this fence, watching the debate. BlackDahlya wrote: <Snip>
I have nothing against it, as long as the DMs can make sure things will not get out of hand and unfair.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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No forced permadeath in PvP.
No forced permadeath in PvM.
Permadeath in DM Event if the DM states that it will be so, and you have the option of not participating.
I'd be happy with that (keeping in mind, of course, that if someone wants to perma their characters, they're free to do so).
Also, with the TV / Aquarium analogy - on a TV you have the ability to choose what channel you want, but no control thereafter. Everything is pre-recorded and already decided. With the Aquarium you choose the ingredients and can see how they interact. You can remove ingredients and see how the environment changes. Every time you try the outcome will be different.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Greyweaver
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Location: CST (GMT-6)
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I've read over this, and I don't like the idea of someone else having the right to dictate your characters permadeath. I do like the penalty after ressurection though. like Con of 3 and Str of 3 I think that those two stats going up 25% after one rest then another 25% after the second rest and so on reflects a true healing process atmosphere taking place. This also gives the party a choice as well, do we slow ourselves up or leave them behind in a safe spot. That adds to rp and I'm all for it. It also would make "death" more notorious as you might be "left for dead" or ported back to the temple to rest up and miss out on some possibly much needed training. It would definitely make grinding parties a bit more cautious as well.
Another idea that might be accepted is make Raise Dead/Res Scrolls less plentiful, and cost more, say 50,000 a scroll or so is a suggestion open to debate of course. Possibly make them only available to be bought at the epic shoppes or the grand temples, like the Triadic in Kohlingen or the Salandran Temple...I don't know much about evil characters temples but do the same with them, of course the Salandran would be open to all from what I understand. Interesting Topic thanks Yurell for linking this in our forums or I might have missed it.
Yurell wrote: No forced permadeath in PvP.
No forced permadeath in PvM.
Permadeath in DM Event if the DM states that it will be so, and you have the option of not participating.
I agree.
Last edited by Greyweaver on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Dec 15 2009, 4:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I'll quote what I'd like to see-
Permadeath in the following situations only
- Absolute Undeniable Stupidity Resulting In Death.
"Who wants to see me cannonball naked into a vat of acid?!"
- Absolute Undeniable Stupidity Resulting In Death.
"No, seriously, guys! I can do it! It's only acid! Watch me!"
- Actions After Extreme Warning / Obvious Presentation of Risk.
"Banned from Cordor on pain of death? Who cares! They've only killed us four times already!"
- DM Events.
"Foresight? Who cares! I'll get out of this anyway even if I don't think ahead or use my brain!"
Yes. The top three have all occured. No, I'm not kidding about the acid. I've seen it done.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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