AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

IronAngel wrote:

Well, your body could. It's pretty reasonable to suppose that repeated death and resurrection -routine causes damage to your body, and it can't take it every day. It needs rest. (Even if it's basically a new body on Resurrection - consider it a genetic memory!)

Ummm, even if it does for some strange reason result in damage, the next casting of Resurrection would repair it as you're "immediately restored to full hit points, vigo[u]r and health".

In PnP you lose point of con on dead, so the ''strain on the body'' is cannon. I don't like the idea, but limited number of lives is not much out there as far as DnD goes.

Moonangel wrote:

In PnP you lose point of con on dead, so the ''strain on the body'' is cannon.

No, you do not. You only lose a point of con if you have no more levels to lose,otherwise you just lose a level.
Unfortunately, we can't take away levels in this game without things breaking.

2 points of con, but yeah, and delevelling isn't viable.

TormakSaber wrote:

2 points of con

Mea culpa

Uh, Yurell... Don't pull that PnP nonsense here.

It's evident that we are not doing this by the PnP rules. As you said, you should lose levels or Con.

Resurrection in NWN only restores what it restores. If there are scripted effects that apply despite the spell, then it doesn't heal those. You're looking at it backwards, saying it "should" heal them. Rather, it's an empirical question: does it actually heal them. No, it doesn't, if we make it that way.

If you wanted a death system that followed PnP practice, you'd have to consent to potential permadeath. Respawn would not be an option, and you could not choose whether someone happened to Raise you sometime.

We're trying to come up with a system that works for Amia, and then explain it.

So do you have anything constructive to add?

IronAngel wrote:

Uh, Yurell... Don't pull that PnP nonsense here.

It's evident that we are not doing this by the PnP rules. As you said, you should lose levels or Con.

Resurrection in NWN only restores what it restores. If there are scripted effects that apply despite the spell, then it doesn't heal those. You're looking at it backwards, saying it "should" heal them. Rather, it's an empirical question: does it actually heal them. No, it doesn't, if we make it that way.

If you wanted a death system that followed PnP practice, you'd have to consent to potential permadeath. Respawn would not be an option, and you could not choose whether someone happened to Raise you sometime.

We're trying to come up with a system that works for Amia, and then explain it.

So do you have anything constructive to add?

TormakSaber wrote:

The idea of "lives" bothers me on a very principal level. You are alive or not, and your soul does not "tire", it does not "strain".

That'll do.

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Dec 23 2009, 11:10 AM, edited 1 time in total.

But what is the alternative? Are you opposed to any kind of scaling penalties? Should it be the same on every death, whether it's your first at kobolds, or your dozenth in PvP faction war after a reckless Abyss run?

"Lives" is probably a poor term to use in the final system. You could easily replace it with "Condition points" or "Strain scale."

Goa'uld sarcofagi are miraculous, but they'll mess with you before long. I see no reason why repeated resurrections wouldn't have the same effect.

Well, do it in a way that doesn't scream "lives" to me. Just don't call it that.

I'm a filthy edit-a-holic.

Yes, I think it should be veiled in appropriate IC terminology in its final form.

IronAngel wrote:

But what is the alternative? Are you opposed to any kind of scaling penalties? Should it be the same on every death, whether it's your first at kobolds, or your dozenth in PvP faction war after a reckless Abyss run?

No, I'm fine with it scaling by levels, but having an arbitrary number of 'lives' is certainly not appealing for me.

I do notmind penalties upon death, and I do not mind these penalties stacking over death (e.g. Xavi's initial -1 to all abilities per death), and them taking time to heal (a sort of fatigue on your body, if you will), but I don't like a number of 'lives' ... eventually lives run out, whereas being stupid with stackable penalties punishes you every single time (unless you stats are 3 all round, but then I'm sure you're either a dead man or something can be thought of).

So if the deal is -1 per day, every time you get another -1 it will last a day: it won't be a -2 that lasts two days, it will be two -1s. The time it goes for is something that can be decided if the idea proves palatable enough, or perhaps a percentile chance of recovering (as per Xavi's idea, although not necessarily with those numbers either).

As for the different forms of returning to life:
Clicking Respawn - results in the current penalties with uncapped gold loss, plus the -1 to all attributes;
Raise Dead - the -1 to all attributes;
Resurrection - perhaps less time (or a higher percentile) for the -1 to all attributes, or it only applying to physical or mental attributes (determined randomly).

So while I didn't express the reason for my distaste clearly, I believe that each death should be punished equally as every death prior, just the punishments stack with each other.

IronAngel wrote:

Goa'uld sarcofagi are miraculous, but they'll mess with you before long. I see no reason why repeated resurrections wouldn't have the same effect.

Umm, they start sending you maglomanic after a while, but it takes centuries of daily use before it loses its ability to repair body, as was discussed about Lord Yu.

Edit: Before it stops preventing degradation of the brain, at least, we have seen examples where said god has been placed in a sarcophagus and still received healing.

TormakSaber wrote:

Well, do it in a way that doesn't scream "lives" to me. Just don't call it that.

Well if you're in effect being given another chance at life, perhaps a better term would be Fate Points. It's a term that's used in various different ways, as a Google search will tell you, but here in this context it seems appropriate that they represent your will and ability to return from the Fugue Plane. When they are fully depleted, your character is at the point where they no longer want to go back.

But if you don't like FP, there's plenty of other catchy names. You could call them Yu's. :twisted:

Selmak wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Well, do it in a way that doesn't scream "lives" to me. Just don't call it that.

Well if you're in effect being given another chance at life, perhaps a better term would be Fate Points. It's a term that's used in various different ways, as a Google search will tell you, but here in this context it seems appropriate that they represent your will and ability to return from the Fugue Plane. When they are fully depleted, your character is at the point where they no longer want to go back.

But if you don't like FP, there's plenty of other catchy names. You could call them Yu's. :twisted:

I don't like the whole idea of a point system where you just lose 'points', whatever you want to call the lives, with an arbitrary maximum number to lose.

Giving 'lives' in-character explanation and terminology only justifies the state where nobody fears death in-character.

They will treat death like a hangover, not like death. When it has in-character support, characters will be perfectly within character to say 'Ah, I only died once, I've had worse nights on vodka'.

They'll also say things like 'Hmm, the Dark Lord will continue to torture people until we kill him five times in a row, as then he won't have the power to match anyone, at least for a week. Then we do the same again.'

If it's an out-of-character mechanism, it should remain so, otherwise you have an island full of characters that are immortal and know it.

Yurell wrote:

Umm, they start sending you maglomanic after a while......

I resemble that implication sir!

That's a good point, Blunt.

One of the problems with the present system is that characters bring OOC things into character to justify their continued existence.

So no Fate Points, no Yu's and certainly no lives.

The IC explanation will be "Yes, you have cheated death this time. Don't make a habit of it or he'll come a-lookin for what you stole."

Obviously you'd have to phrase it a little differently since death doesn't typically manifest in FR as dark-robed guy with a scythe and a cellphone, but the point is clear enough. You are not immortal. So don't act like you are.

TormakSaber wrote:

The idea of "lives" bothers me on a very principal level. You are alive or not, and your soul does not "tire", it does not "strain".

"Psychic shock"

IronAngel wrote:

Whether we include the concept of "lives" or not, the same problem will still be there with any scaling death penalties. If previous conditions don't affect your current penalties, we have no choice but to go with a flat penalty every time. Which is kinda boring, and punishes the accidental death as much as the daily victim of massacre.

Basically, this.

IronAngel wrote:

I don't understand the difference between the time before you go to the Fugue, and the time you spend in there, though.

How can you still be raised if you go into the Fugue? Do you mean a symbol of your corpse still sticks around, and can be raised to get you out of there sooner?

Details, details!

I believe I was thinking along the lines of Ravenloft's "lug your corpse to the cleric" thing. It would be easier to raise someone (ie. lower level cleric or lower level spell required and/or reduced penalties upon res) if their spirit was still lurking nearby. Once their journey to the Fugue has begun it's harder to call them back and/or it produces more psychic shock. You don't necessarily have to leave the corpse, though I think it's a fun idea.

There are certainly other ways to do this. Rather than a trip to the Fugue plane, you could have dead people be 'unconscious' until that time and then 'dead' for that minimum time, meaning that only some spells would work at certain times (this might require changing some spells, which is of course a hassle also). I was just taking your idea of the 'time out' and running with it, but exactly how it would work or what it would mean IC is subject to debate. You could even ignore the 'time in Fugue' entirely except on the last death, though this means you need to beat on someone repeatedly (5 x within a week) in order to get them out of the way for a while, which I find rather distasteful.

I point out that this still doesnt solve the OOC-ness of the 'friendly cleric passing by some isolated corner of the Spires and raising you' or the 'magical resurrection life insurance policy'.

Last edited by Xaviera on Wed, Dec 23 2009, 16:46 PM, edited 5 times in total.

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

If it's an out-of-character mechanism, it should remain so, otherwise you have an island full of characters that are immortal and know it.

I think it's been said before, but in any system without IC permadeath you will have that OOC response, and some people will bring it IC.

The only way I see to get rid of that (apart from permadeath, that is) is simply to change 'dead' to 'unconscious'. So if you respawn, you've managed to crawl away and hide from your enemies and then recovered enough to heal yourself and escape. No more 'friendly clerics' or 'I died three times this week'. If this is done, I would probably recommend the portable body a la Ravenloft.

This is where changing the spells may come in (as per my previous post). Raise dead gets dropped (for PCs, at least - Resurrection is available for high-level clerics). Heal has its normal effects on 'conscious' (ie. alive) PCs and brings 'unconscious' (ie. dead) PCs back to 1 hit point. Even nastier, Heal could just be like an uber-cure critical on living people (6d8 + 2 per caster level?) - it would certainly make all types of combat more dangerous! :twisted:

No more complete recovery for epics with one spell/potion!

Heroic PCs cheat death all the time with miraculous escapes. In this system, there is no 'death' until you get to your 5th life, when you're out for a day on the Fugue Plane. If this is done, then ignore the 'Time in Fugue' of my previous posts. If you aren't rezzed (pardon me, Healed :wink:

) before the 'pre-Fugue' time is up the penalties are just worse.

Here's another thought. Everyone OOCly has 5 lives. Maybe...

When your PC is created, you get a certain number of lives, maybe 40% chance of 4, 30% chance of 3, 20% chance of 2 and 10% chance of 1. You dont know exactly how many you have. When you die, the penalties are applied based on lives remaining, as in my previous posts. So you might die to the kobolds and find yourself out of action for a RL day, which will tell you that you probably shouldnt do it again. On the other hand, if you ever get to zero, that number of lives is rerolled.

In this situation, though, I would suggest highly variable penalties so nobody can say "Oh, I've been penalized to -5 after one death, I must have none remaining" and people might get suicidal ("I only have two lives, better kill myself a few times and hope I come back with more"). All in all, I prefer my first suggestion of being 'unconscious'.

Of course these two systems could be combined if we wanted to watch Disco and Terra's heads explode.

There's a problem with making PC's mortal and subject to permadeath:

The monsters aren't subject to permadeath. If you guys wanna use PnP logic to say that permadeath should be implemented, you should also look at the fact that in PnP, monsters don't "respawn" unless they're trolls and you didn't correctly dispose of them.

Would you want a server where only a certain group of people got to kill all the monsters one time? I don't think so.

Jyro X wrote:

There's a problem with making PC's mortal and subject to permadeath:

The monsters aren't subject to permadeath. If you guys wanna use PnP logic to say that permadeath should be implemented, you should also look at the fact that in PnP, monsters don't "respawn" unless they're trolls and you didn't correctly dispose of them.

Would you want a server where only a certain group of people got to kill all the monsters one time? I don't think so.

This is a very good point. I have no real issue with the mechanics being suggested here, it is just the impossibility to mesh it with the setting that gets to me. To have anything other than the current set up, or the ones suggested here, would require a DM assigned to every party, like in pen and paper. Frankly, however, as nice as that might sound, it isn't possible.

As the topic title says: No permadeath talk here. Talk numbers, or don't talk at all (whether they're numbers for my concept, or something else).

Xaviera wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

The idea of "lives" bothers me on a very principal level. You are alive or not, and your soul does not "tire", it does not "strain".

"Psychic shock"

No.. the mechanics clearly state there is no 'shock'. Not in the spell descriptions.

Completely irrelevant.

As I said: we're working out a system that works. IC explanation comes afterwards.

1e required you to make a 'system shock' roll against your Con to see if you were raised successfully. Not that anybody ever did it, mind you. But, yeah, we can force the IC explanation later - kinda like portal rods.

More comments on the system(s) suggested? Other ideas?

How about some feedback from our scripting gurus on what parts are reasonable and what parts not?

Thought we had a good system outlined here:

IronAngel wrote:

Some ideas:

Regeneration rate of 1 life per week, capped at 5. (Someone thought they wouldn't regenerate until you were down to one, but that's not my intention.)

First death (4 lives left): Random ability penalties for 1 hour (2 hours if scroll, 3 hours if Respawn).
Second death (3 lives left): Increased penalties for 3 hours (6 if scroll, 9 if Respawn).
Third death (2 lives left): Increased penalties for 5 hours (10 if scroll, 15 if Respawn).
Fourth death (1 life left): Increased penalties for 8 hours (16 if scroll, 24 for Respawn).
Fifth death (0 lives left): Increased penalties for 18 hours (36 if scroll, 44 if Respawn).
Sixth death: Increased penalties until at least 1 life regenerates.

And you can't really "force" a IC explanation. When a player comes out of death with a penalty on their PC it's on them to RP it or not. Doesn't matter if they do or not they still have the penalty.

Now as for the penalties themselves that could run of a single script each time I think. Simply selecting one random stat and applying a -1 to it each time the PC comes out of death. Simple to make hopefully to not pile the work on for the DEV team

The problem I find with lives. When lives run out, one of two things happen:
1) Penalties become permanent;
2) Penalties stop accruing.

The former is, in general, an end (usually permadeath in most games), while the latter makes the last life a punishment that, if endured, can continue to be endured ad infinitum with no further penalty.

That's why I prefer my idea of a floating penalty. A -1 to everything for a set amount of time is what you would get for every single death every single time - no death in particular is special. If it is decided these penalties last two or three days, and you decide to click respawn five times in those days, well, by my last post you will have lost 49% of your gold, 50% of your progress to next level and have a blanket of -5 to all your stats. If you were raised, you'd merely have a -5 to all your stats - which is not a minor punishment.

The things that I like about my idea:
-The punishment isn't too dire at first, so you can handle a death or two while hunting, or rnadom PvP
-Every death is treated equally
-The removal of the gold cap is what discourages respawn in a bossfight for high levels

Basically, I'm not fussed about the numbers: if a -2 to all stats is thought to be balanced, or the duration it applies should be longer / shorter,I'm fine with it.

Penalty magnitude should scale roughly according to level. Otherwise, they don't necessarily penalise high-end characters very much, or they penalise low-end characters too much.

Selmak:

Stats don't change (much) with level, so penalizing stats isn't much different for low vs high level. In fact, you could argue it's worse for high levels because when you lose those 5 points of INT you got for levelling up you'll lose all your high-level spells. The 4th level 18-INT mage will still be able to cast his 1st & 2nd level spells. Granted, the 4th level who goes from 8 CON to 3 CON may be in some difficulty, but it's a scary world out there. If you're dying 5 times in a week, perhaps you should rethink your strategy. Or your profession.

Yurell:

What you're saying is essentially what Iron and I are saying, if you happen to die 5 times in a week - in other words, the penalties are cumulative. The difference with our system is that until you are fully recovered (over several weeks, ie. you have regenerated your pool of lives) there is a residual effect of previous losses. In both cases, repeated loss of lives in a (relatively) short term is more painful. Under our regime, however, while you may recover from serious penalties within a RL day or so, the goal is to make you not want to die again for a long time. One hopes that this will promote partying and other forms of more cautious behaviour.

Oh, righty-ho, I just meant that saving throws and the like, they go up a bit faster than ability stats. But if there's no save penalties, never mind what I said.

With these systems will the current GP/XP penalties remain, or are we functioning that that system will dissapear completely?

I personally wouldnt, but I wouldnt be against a GP cost for 'recovery' at least.

Reintergration Complex:

Your soul and Body's seperation has caused the supernatural bonds that link the two together to become degraded. During the time that your body and soul are refamiliarizing themselves you lack your previous mental, physical, and metaphysical acumen, as the bonds are rebuilt you will return to your previous vigor.

There are Six stages.

I: Spirtual Dissonance: A slight disharmony has occured between the two, usually as a result of restorative magic bringing a body just past the brink back to working function. The soul did not have time to leave its core. Typically the level felt after the use of a powerful life restorative magic.

II: Spirtual Discordance: The state of the Body and Soul are thrown far out of alignment, typically as a result of a less powerful restorative magic used. The bonds between the body and soul suffer from lingering damage, that the magic was not potent enough to fully reintegrate, or two applications of powerful reintegration magic.

III: Spiritual Fissure: You have died, usually as a result of hapless action, and your body was stumbled upon by a friendly soul. Tymora smiles on you this day, you find yourself alive, but not very well.. in the nearest temple. You seem to have been liberated of some of your spoils, to cover the cost of your revival. This stage of mal-integration can be reached via multiple uses of reintergration magic.

IV: Spiritual Chasm: Your body trembles, it does not listen. You feel as if you are highly intoxicated. Your entire body aches. Your head is pounding. The world spins, lights seem dim, as if a haze has enveloped your senses. Bedrest would be wise untill the body and soul can properly integrate. Only the foolhardy, or truly driven individual would dare put himself in any form of situation which would lead to danger.

V: Spiritual Fracture: You feel as if your control on yourself is slipping. Everything seems sluggish, dim, disconnected. Your body lurches and seems inclined to stumble, trip, fall. Limbs fail to react with any form of dexterity, or control. Your muscles lack strength. It is as if the will to do little more than exist is all but beyond the capability of your body. You should rest, your body's link to your soul is threadbare.

VI: Your body is in a catatonic state. You are unconcious. Its so dark, it seems so peaceful. Infinite blackness. Your body is asleep, it refuses to listen to your soul's commands.. it can't. You should let it rest. Nice...peaceful, restorative rest.

OOC:

Each resurrection type has a set cost, which will be listed below. Starting at the highest penalty, will be 6 hours of downtime IRL, 3 of which you have no control over your PC. If afflicted with worst case of Soul Reintegration complex Stage 6, after 3 hours you have normal control of your PC returned, and your condition improves to stage 5. You suffer the penalties associated, including a 50% movement speed reduction penalty. You're basically gettting your 'land legs' back. After 2 more hours standard movement functions and general 'day to day' activities are within your ability and your condition improves to stage 4, but you don't feel right still. Thirty minutes you're at stage 3, 15 minutes later, stage 2, 5 minutes later, stage 1, 5 minutes after that, stage 0.

Penalty Point Death costs by raise type:

DM sanctioned Assassination: 6 Point penalty, PvP Death only. DMs can set modal action on marked PC, if it is killed it is automatically forwarded to stage 6, 'special marking' lasts 1 reset.

Respawn: 3 point penalty. 10% max current level xp loss - Cant delevel, ported to nearest temple.

Raise Scroll: 2 Point Penalty 5% max current level xp loss - Cant delevel

Resurrect: 1 point penalty 2.5% max current level xp loss - Cant delevel

Penalty Points are additive.

Point penalty Stages:

0: Healthy, Perfectly Integrated
1: +1 ECL temp penalty, -2 from all stat/roll penalty. 5min
2: +1 ECL temp penalty, -4 from all stat/roll penalty. 15 min.
3: +2 ECL temp penalty, -6 from all stat/roll penalty, 30 min.
4: +3 ECL temp penalty, -8 from all stat/roll penalty. 1hr
5: +4 ECL temp penalty, -10 from all stat/rolls penalty. 50% snare. 3hr
6: PC blinded, forced prone wherever it is, 100% snare. Automatically ported to the Salandran temple recovery wing if on A and Equivilant on B 6hrs.

GP penalty of ((150gp * (ECL squared) ))/2 for raise/ressurect of PVM death.

GP penalty of ((150gp * (ECL squared) ))*2 for respawn from PVM death.

PVP death modal = Forced respawn, no raise.

Pros:

Makes sense IC. Penalties affect both PvP and PvM.

Add Resurrect scrolls @ 50,000gp. New money sink.

2 Respawns within 30 minutes = 1 reset out of the game 'Cooling off period'.

2 Respawns allowed per reset, if more than 30 minutes apart.

Death has meaning, suffers effects, some debilitating, but not extremely game breaking for -extended- periods.

Players have way of taking out other PC's out of comission short term, with DM aproval.

Resurrect scrolls = New high level money sink, new PvP tool and has universal desireablility.

Re. your suggestions, Dwagin:

You have an xp loss where I&I (Iron & I :wink:

) dont
You have a gp loss where I&I dont, but gp loss is fine by me as well (I just didnt put it in)
You have higher stat penalties
The penalty durations are roughly equivalent within a broad range (a few hrs to a day)

If I understand correctly, the penalties depend solely on the method you use to return to life. So if you are resurrected 3x, the penalty is rank 3 (+2 ECL -6 stats for 30 min). If you are raised 2x, it would be rank 4 (+3 ECL -8 stats for 1 hr).

I'm not entirely clear about how rez/respawn frequency thing works, though. First of all, when you say '2 respawns' do you mean 2 respawns or 2 raises of any type? I infer the former. As well, given that you cant be penalized for more than 30 min unless PvPd, I assume the system tracks the number & time of deaths within a reset and imposes cumulative penalties, or you could never get a penalty higher than rank 3 unless PvPd. This means you probably need to store the time since last death and the cumulative penalty - two variables, as far as I can tell, which isnt game-breaking.

So let's see how this works.

Death 1. Penalty depends on method of raising. Max penalty is rank 3 (30 min) unless DM-sanctioned assassination.

Death 2 w/in 30 min. Booted from the game until next reset.

or

Death 2 after 30 min. Cumulative penalty for multiple raises.

Death 3 (anytime after Death 2). Booted until next reset?

Your suggestion of DM-sanctioned assassination gets around the rather repugnant thought of having to beat someone into the ground several times to force the max penalty per I&I. But since the variables would be stored on an undroppable item in the PC's possession, DMs could always have the discretion of changing that anyway.

Not sure I care for the blinded/prone for 3 hrs in the case of the max penalty. On the other hand, being sent to the Fugue for an hour would be only slightly more exciting - unless we had a decent Fugue plane. In fact, I've been thinking of an idea - 5 large areas (like 64 x 64) in a cross shape, linked as a tesseract....

Yurell wrote:

Moonangel wrote:

In PnP you lose point of con on dead, so the ''strain on the body'' is cannon.

No, you do not. You only lose a point of con if you have no more levels to lose,otherwise you just lose a level.
Unfortunately, we can't take away levels in this game without things breaking.

What breaks if you lose a level? sorry but I just do not understand that.

RDD is one thing that will be bugged if you loose levels

XP loss, I feel its a needed punishment, my stat durations for most people adventuring for one death are very short lived. XP loss doesn't affect capped characters either.

All death should result in coin loss in my opinion except for PvP. And more than we have now. This is something that can affect capped characters.

When I said points are additive, I meant for the case of 'going down the list', not the actual stat penalties in case that was not clear.

My penalties are higher, but are required because I do not have a 'Lives' system. The penalties from the death must be the limiting factor of not wanting to die more. They can be harsh, and short lived at the same time. The penalty should be the disuader. I feel penalties should be static, not variable.

I also believe a single death can happen even if you're being sincerely careful for things outside of your hands, as a result I do not want a partied player to feel the sting for beyond more than one reset. (Unless they are forced to respawn, thems the breaks for soloing or full party wipe.)

Quote:

If I understand correctly, the penalties depend solely on the method you use to return to life. So if you are resurrected 3x, the penalty is rank 3 (+2 ECL -6 stats for 30 min). If you are raised 2x, it would be rank 4 (+3 ECL -8 stats for 1 hr)....

This is correct. But also keep in mind points tick down. If you are resurrected 3 times, but the first two resurrections occured more than 5 minutes apart from one another, you still only have 1 point. And if the second occurs sooner than 5 minutes from the third, then you have a 2 Point penalty, for 15 minutes.

I have it function this way for several reasons:

I make the assumption that people in epic will be adventuring in a party of 3-4 and someone may shoot for a 'raise scroll' with the first death. Which bumps them to 15 minute penalty. If they die again in that time, they should wisely choose the 50,000gold resurrect scroll in epic. To keep their 'penalty' manageable. Different XP costs for revival methods also play a big part in the 'desireability' of resurrect scrolls. This gets more money out of the economy, via a way that people would certainly want. (A lessened xp penalty, and stat penalty duration) While still stinging people being careless. (Dying twice within Fifteen minutes, if raised, dying twice within 5 minutes if resurrected.)

I would also suggest turning 'raise scrolls' and 'resurrect scrolls' into on use items, that pop up a dialogue box on a PC that is proned and DM invul/frozen and ask if they wish to be revived via this method, to make sure that someone doesn't try to 'grief them' with a raise scroll when someone was going to use a 'resurrect' scroll. It also gives them the Soul's ability to 'deny a raise'. If they say no, the PC just is 'killed'. Since XP/GP penalties on *successful* raise, not death, this poses no issue. It also allows for the needed scripting sorta like the current pvp death system.

I also have re-considered an idea:

I believe PvP'ed targets should be forced to use only raise scrolls or respawn. This makes 'raise chaining' in pvp have a very bad effect, even if you have money to burn. So first PVP raise = automatic 15 minute penalty. Second raise is 1 hr with heavy penalties. Raising in combat should be considered 'stupid'. This makes sure it is, but also allows for a method to still have sacrifice/capture RP.

I believe an OOC raise should still exist as it does now, with a cooldown. When the OOC raise is given it could pop up a dialogue window and ask the PC: Do you wish to return to your bind point? Choosing yes will institute a 3 Point penalty, spawn a clone of your corpse, and teleport you to your bind point. If you choose 'No. To be a (wo)man and Role Play it out!' you are given no penalties and returned to life. This accomplishes several things, in it also allows for 'OOC raises' and allow people to be sacrificed but the player be able to skip the 'sacrifice parts' if they do not want to be involved in it if its not their cup of tea, or they've not got the time. The corpse should poof on reset, and alternatively they can choose to skip the penalty and go along with the RP!

Quote:

Not sure I care for the blinded/prone for 3 hrs in the case of the max penalty. On the other hand, being sent to the Fugue for an hour would be only slightly more exciting..

Well, think of it this way If you've gotten yourself to the 6 point peanlty you've freaking earned it IMO. One of the following has happened:

1. You have died 3 times and raise scrolled in the following scenario:
You died. You were raised. You died again within 15 minutes. Then, after that you died a third time within an hour. - You should have quit when you're ahead, and now you pay the price of being in hospital unconcious for one reset, then spend another one getting back on your feet. Death has sting.

But people can come 'visit' you. You're blind because your body is sleeping.. but maybe your subconcious can pick up on some things, like loved ones whispering to you. You have at least -some- possibility of RPing your condition even while 'unconcious', as well as seeing feedback, even if you decide to stay for those 3 hours. As a possibility, maybe the 'blind' should be short lived, and you get a on-screen message to the effect of: Your body has reached stage 6, you are unconcious and unable to control it. Then at least the player can see whats going on around the body. But I'm a fan of sensory deprivation can prevent unconcious metagaming. You can get a real feeling for 'Ugh! what happened, where am I?!' when your PC does wake up.

2. Resurrect: You die 2 times within 5 minutes of another, then died a third time within fifteen minutes from the second time, then died a fourth time within thirty minutes of that one, then died a Fifth time within an hour of that, then died again, within three hours of that.

3. Respawn: You've respawned twice, within 30 minutes of one another. Or Respawned, then got killed again within 30 minutes, and raised. Then within 3 hours after that you got killed AGAIN, and raised.

I see nothing wrong in those situations with a 'cosmic force' saying: Your body and soul cant handle this abuse, you need rest.

Dwagin wrote:

All death should result in coin loss in my opinion except for PvP. And more than we have now. This is something that can affect capped characters.

I won't argue that point.

Dwagin wrote:

Well, think of it this way If you've gotten yourself to the 6 point peanlty you've freaking earned it IMO.

No argument there at all.

Dwagin wrote:

I believe PvP'ed targets should be forced to use only raise scrolls or respawn. This makes 'raise chaining' in pvp have a very bad effect, even if you have money to burn.

Or make Resurrect have a 1-5 min casting time so it can't be used in PvP.

Dwagin wrote:

I see nothing wrong in those situations with a 'cosmic force' saying: Your body and soul cant handle this abuse, you need rest.

Either a cosmic force or simply your own body/mind's inability to handle the disorientation of reintegration will do fine as an IC explanation for the penalties, IMO.

Just to clarify - your penalties only overlap if you have a second death within the penalty duration of the first? Where does your 'two deaths within 30 min' restriction come from, then? Also, let's say you're in a party of epics with a cleric packed to the gills with Resurrections. You can then afford to drop dead every 6 minutes and carry on with no ill effects. I&I dont penalize you for that first death, or even that much for the second death, but it's not something you should be doing regularly. Basically I&I allows you one death a week. Your method, on the other hand, only lasts within a single reset so you can die every 4 hrs. I&I want death to be something you stay away from as much as possible.

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Just to clarify - your penalties only overlap if you have a second death within the penalty duration of the first? Where does your 'two deaths within 30 min' restriction come from, then?

If you die during the duration of a previous penalty you get your status upgraded to the new penalty with death timer updated to reflect it. If you die, are forced to respawn, you hit 3 Points. You get the 3 point penalty which is 30 minute duration. If you die and respawn again, you get +3 points more. If it is within the first thirty minutes and your state hasn't progressed from stage III to stage II you get the full on 6 point penalty. That is where the 2 death penalty you're talking about comes from, I think. I'm a bit confused on what you're confused on. If its been 31 minutes, then its stage II + III or V penalty.

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Also, let's say you're in a party of epics with a cleric packed to the gills with Resurrections. You can then afford to drop dead every 6 minutes and carry on with no ill effects. I&I dont penalize you for that first death, or even that much for the second death, but it's not something you should be doing regularly. Basically I&I allows you one death a week. Your method, on the other hand, only lasts within a single reset so you can die every 4 hrs. I&I want death to be something you stay away from as much as possible.

Thats why clerics can be given a resurrection kit. This kit holds diamonds and holy water. Raise dead takes 1 lesser diamond reagent, 1,500gp. Resurrect takes 1 diamond reagent, and a holy water reagent. 25,000 gp to cast. A 20,000gp 'Diamond' reagent, and a 5,000 gp holy-water vessel.

Godo wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Moonangel wrote:

In PnP you lose point of con on dead, so the ''strain on the body'' is cannon.

No, you do not. You only lose a point of con if you have no more levels to lose,otherwise you just lose a level.
Unfortunately, we can't take away levels in this game without things breaking.

What breaks if you lose a level? sorry but I just do not understand that.

RDD and PM tend to do strange things if you try to delevel them if I understand correctly.

You are complicating it way to much. KISS or don't do it.

Thats my take on everything thats been suggested.

As a Repost of what i suggested in the permadead thread :

CatInBox wrote:

Okay, i'll be honest, im way to lazy to read everyone's post about this subject, so if this idea has come up before im not stealing it, just "great minds think alike"

Okay, Im not really a fan of a forced perma-death because i love the rp that happens with my characters, but mostly it involves my PC "dying" cause they're KO'd. If a scripted Permadeath system is on and i "die" even though im not "Dead" it'll be really bad on my end.

SO! Here's my own thoughts on this issue:

Instead of a Perma-death system, why not make raising harder. Now before any of you scream bloody murder, please let me explain my idea.

Your biggest problem with a permadeath system is the raise dead scrolls. But instead of just shooting them out, why not make them more RP-able.
Instead of a Raise Dead scroll being an instant raise, why not script them to react to the dead ones level. Based off their level it would be harder/easyer to raise them ((the higher level you are the harder it would be to raise you, though NOT IMPOSSIBLE, it might take 5-7 trys before you are alive.))

Mostly this stems from the idea that it'd be easyer to raise a Level 1 character because they're younger and not as likely to die of natural causes ((which is what "death" is, in my opinion))

However, on the flip side, a level 30 character is going to be harder to raise cause they're older and more venerable. Dying is a more likely option for them, then going through the pain and suffering ((real PnP raising causes -1 to lvl and a CON penalty, tell me that isnt suffering)) of being raised from the dead.

Im not going to throw out any real numbers because its more of an general idea then a system that i've worked out myself. However based on others opinions i'd be glad to try and put together a number system that would work well.

I'd like to reiterate that with this system death chance will NEVER be 100%.

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((real PnP raising causes -1 to lvl and a CON penalty, tell me that isnt suffering))

No, it's -1 level or if you're level 1, a -2 con penalty. Not both.

If there is any death pen that is permant(Such as -1 level, etc) it -will- be abused you can bet on it, and as a result it will cause even more problems for the DMs and produce more OOC problems. Anything permant is a no no from me.

Edit: Added () to clarify what I meant.

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Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

I am talking about -1 level, etc.

I didnt mean to have it implemented into the actual raising system, i was just using it as an example to show that the higher level you are, the harder it should be to raise you. And yes, Tormak, my numbers were wrong, Gomen ne.

Are we talking death as in revive... Or death as in you die in combat versus monster get instantly raises by scroll or cleric?

I don't want to pull the "I'm leaving if this happens" ticket, but I'd honestly consider taking another long and maybe permenant break if penalities for dying in PvP were introduced. Griefing is bad enough without adding penalities for the victim.

And not all PvP rule breakings go punished, a lot go unpunished, be it from not enough evidence, or simple miscommunitication, or people simply not respecting other players. Hell, a good number of the server don't even come on the fourms and thus have no idea the procedure to report someone for abusing PvP rules.

PvP penalities are a bad idea. Period.

Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

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