AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

HellScourge wrote:

Most Melee's have about 26 BAB at level 30. Add to that weapon Focus and EWF for another +3 bonus.
Then add the blade enhancement for another +4/5 . Plus the +12 Strength Mod they most probably will have for dev crit.
That adds up to +44 AB.

In comparison my Sd only has 40 AC.
The AC of my friends SD is only 33.

I know that there are SD builds and others that can easily reach up to 60.
But not everyone has these.

Got to correct you on that.

I'm going to make only one assumption about our SD. They got Epic Dodge (as the -sheer- majority do).

With relatively minor +4 Gearsetting;

10 Base + 14 Dex + 5 Armor (Archmagi Robes) + 4 Natural + 4 Deflection + 5 Dodge (+5 Sunsoul) + 6 Shield (+4 Large)
= 48

That can be pulled while possessing a rather high (though not max'd) Hide / Move Silently / Spot. Large SHields don't really have a high Armor Check Penalty, so...

You can get that even higher through easy bonuses such as Armor Skin (Which any Dexer should have), +4 Dodge through easily available Haste Wands, +1 from Mage Armor... All readily available.

That Epic Dodge is also negating the first -successful- swing of every round. So if they raw miss the first out of getting a low roll, their next attack is definately gonna miss as well.

+6 AC from tumble.

Note to self. Don't try powerbuilder stuff at 4AM.

Yes. +6 from Tumble.

Terra_777 wrote:

Hips is only changeable when I get nwnx to properly hook stealth mode. Which probably won't happen in awhile.

Thank goodness! Never been so happy to know something won't/can't be done.

Mr Mago wrote:

HellScourge wrote:

Most Melee's have about 26 BAB at level 30. Add to that weapon Focus and EWF for another +3 bonus.
Then add the blade enhancement for another +4/5 . Plus the +12 Strength Mod they most probably will have for dev crit.
That adds up to +44 AB.

In comparison my Sd only has 40 AC.
The AC of my friends SD is only 33.

I know that there are SD builds and others that can easily reach up to 60.
But not everyone has these.

A build that uses a full BAB progression class level 1-20 gets a maximum of 25 BAB.

Focus, EWF and Epic Prowess. +5 AB on weapon. +14 str mod.

48 AB.

It's easy to get 65+ AC on an SD using a large shield.

Using Shadow Evade you can quite easily hit 75+ AC.

But that AC requires you to be a specific mix of classes and we know 90% of SDs dont have it.

So to even out the melee vs SD lets be fair and throw in the certain melee build that can easyly hit that ac, and on top of it knock the SD down without him being able to resist it, and on 'top' of 'that' owning the SD with a 44-45 DC dev crit that it gets easyly while the SD is on the floor with his low low fortitude that in most cases reaches only mid 30s even with heavy fort gear on.

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Terra_777 wrote:

Hips is only changeable when I get nwnx to properly hook stealth mode. Which probably won't happen in awhile.

Thank goodness! Never been so happy to know something won't/can't be done.

Yeah, thank god that now we're using haks, there's other ways to do it.

Quote:

But that AC requires you to be a specific mix of classes and we know 90% of SDs dont have it.

You... you mean "rogue/SD"?

Riddle wrote:

But that AC requires you to be a specific mix of classes and we know 90% of SDs dont have it.

So to even out the melee vs SD lets be fair and throw in the certain melee build that can easyly hit that ac, and on top of it knock the SD down without him being able to resist it, and on 'top' of 'that' owning the SD with a 44-45 DC dev crit that it gets easyly while the SD is on the floor with his low low fortitude that in most cases reaches only mid 30s even with heavy fort gear on.

Like Tormak said. Rogue/SD. Thanks to Shadow Evade.

It's hard to hit something you can't target.

The SD can resist KD as good as any build. You just need to invest in discipline for it. Two items = +18 discipline.

44-45 DC Dev Crit?

A reasonable top tier Dev Crit DC is 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (curse song) or... 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (battletide) + 1 (prayer)... 43 and 44 "effective" Dev Crit DC. The latter requires an omgwtfz powerbuild that only me and one other player on Amia knows of atm.

HiPS spam means that the SD'er is basically impossible to hit.

Mr Mago wrote:

Riddle wrote:

But that AC requires you to be a specific mix of classes and we know 90% of SDs dont have it.

So to even out the melee vs SD lets be fair and throw in the certain melee build that can easyly hit that ac, and on top of it knock the SD down without him being able to resist it, and on 'top' of 'that' owning the SD with a 44-45 DC dev crit that it gets easyly while the SD is on the floor with his low low fortitude that in most cases reaches only mid 30s even with heavy fort gear on.

Like Tormak said. Rogue/SD. Thanks to Shadow Evade.

It's hard to hit something you can't target.

The SD can resist KD as good as any build. You just need to invest in discipline for it. Two items = +18 discipline.

44-45 DC Dev Crit?

A reasonable top tier Dev Crit DC is 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (curse song) or... 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (battletide) + 1 (prayer)... 43 and 44 "effective" Dev Crit DC. The latter requires an omgwtfz powerbuild that only me and one other player on Amia knows of atm.

HiPS spam means that the SD'er is basically impossible to hit.

Wouldn't a half-orc bard/fighter/RDD with all his epic feats poured into Greater Strength have 43 DEV DC? A very very meh build though. And 46 if he somehow manages to have curse song.

And no AB and low HP and the reflex and will saves of jack, and easily dispelled.

Mr Mago wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

To be fair, there are so many other crutches on amia beside the SD that are glaringly obvious, that warrant attention and for some reason, unnoticed.

Such as?

The crutches im alluding to allow any character to power level with absolute ease. Some of these can be used by all classes regardless while some are class specific. I'm not going to indulge anyone by naming them (and im sure as the powerbuilding king, you know of them yourself) but relative to Dev Crit, Epic Dodge etc, at the level they are available they are more powerful. A lot of these crutches are also insiduous and easily overlooked. I try not to use them because I feel like i am cheating and it simply ruins the early levels of the game (which are arguably the most fun). Honestly I feel like im using an exploit. I have mentioned these countless times on the boards but i'm getting to the point where I should no longer try and helpfully suggest changes that would make the server more balanced and challenging, but just exploit them like everyone currently does. If however a DM is interested in what these crutches may be i am happy to answer in detail in PMs.

WonWon wrote:

If I could sit down and fix up every balance imperfection and make every class varied etc...

Removing the crutches that i have alluded to above would leave only a small number of classes still able to solo which would cut down the work load dramatically - and balancing these out is not as fiddly as it sounds. Yes, their would likely be a lot of whining as peoples crutches were taken away but if you want to make amia a world where "every class is even but with different specialities that counter an equal amount of people as they're defended against", then a great deal of change is needed. Ideally Amia would be a world where every class needs everyone else. Again if any DMs would like to hear my suggestions then feel free to PM me. It cannot hurt really as if you dont like them you simply wont implement them. Funnily enough, I see a lot of good ideas on these very boards to improve and revitalise amia but they just seem to go ignored e.g adding more quests for example.

Godo wrote:

As far as soloing, not all characters are meant to be in parties

Then go and play the OC. Either no class can solo or all classes should be made to solo.

TormakSaber wrote:

And no AB and low HP and the reflex and will saves of jack, and easily dispelled.

My point exactly. Functional, well balanced builds keep their Dev DCs 35-38. 40 DC without RD would require you to have 40 STR while buffed, that means losing a lot of feats to Greater Strength, something only devoted WMs do who suck at saves/AC anyway, when some more offence in expense of defense does them only good.

Dev Crit DC 39 is standard.

Yups. 26 -> 38 STr for 14 mod, 10 base DC, 30 PC level, half that is 15. 10 + 15 + 14. 39-40 is standard Dev DC, if you see anything less it's because the fighter isn't wearing all +12 of his STR boost which likely means he's not in combat gear at all.

Or someone went RDD 10.

Oh, yus, that too, whoring out the 'exploit' if you could call it one, well, I call it one, but yeah.

Yeah, it is easy to get really high AC on an SD.

On a 28 Rogue/Fighter/SD, unbuffered AC of 48 - That is with +5 AC boots, +4 Cloth, +4 Amulet, +3 Cloak, DEX Mod of 14, Armor Skin and Tumble.

It can be raised to 69 with three buffers, a +3 Tower Shield and two feats that can be activated.

The SD has fought people Poly'd in both Umber-hulk and Dragon and the only build that really gives him trouble in those forms is a Barb raged or a (Pre-buffered) Cleric, since people often lose mor AC/AB than they gain from using those forms. SD is deffinately not nerfed.

As for Assassin, it's not that it's nerfed, it's just not too good to start with, it's been buffed on Amia with the Assassin items, better than nothing at all?

WonWon wrote:

Ideally, you got Shadowdancer because Shadowdancer fitted your character, not because it got you HiPS.

Ideally, you also got Blackguard because Blackguard fitted those characters, not because you wanted the bonus saving throws.

I know, I live in a utopia.

Lucky me both was the case

Ignore what I said before about my SD. I forgot that I was wearing the wrong kind of cloak, one that gave hide/ms but no AC. With that one could I have pushed myself into a bit higher AC.

*cower*

Shame on me.

edit:

But anycase, I agree, hips spam should be removed.

You all are talking about power builds here. Is Amia a power build server or a RP server? I use my Hips in RP, sometimes in solo PvM when I ever do PvM. Blackdragon, you said either no class should be able to solo or all classes should be able to, the cleric can easily solo so doesn’t that mean all classes should be able to?

I use Hips to unhide then hide all the time so players can get a glimpse of him from time to time while he’s in the trees, RP in the trees since he cant actually go in them. If Hips spamming is the problem then do something about that spammers themselves not to hips.

Fixing the spamming typically involves fixing the ability that allows the spamming. People won't listen to, or keep track of "okay everyone, you need to wait 6 seconds between hiding."

So we'll enforce it by mechanics.

Well, it's pretty simple: the ability to spam HiPS is the only thing that makes it broken. It's the one and the only nerf the SD needs. In PvP, it is practically impossible for a meleer to hit an SD who spams HiPS; there simply isn't time to target unless you have some magic fingers, and Epic Dodge takes care of Whirlwind Attack (unless the SD happens to be walking).

So yes: there's no question about it, it should definetely be fixed if it's only possible. It's the only thing that warrants a change, though.

Godo wrote:

Blackdragon, you said either no class should be able to solo or all classes should be able to, the cleric can easily solo so doesn’t that mean all classes should be able to?

I'm sure I've said no class should be able to solo? Hmm i must be going senile in my old age....Regardless, if it were up to me, I'd take away the clerics ability to solo as well but...well...it isnt.

If it did happen and clerics were balanced to be more in line with other classes, I dont think many of the playerbase would be happy about it.

Lol.

You just can't take away the "ability" to solo. All classes can solo, depending on their builds.

Lol.

I could sure make it a darn sight harder than it is now!

And I would still be able to make a build that can solo.

Or... actually. There is one way to make spawns that makes it impossible for you to solo, but still fully beatable with a group of non-powerbuilds. But those are best left for truly epic areas.

Last edited by Tacka on Tue, Dec 29 2009, 23:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

*shrug*

Nerf buffer mages as well, since we're making a list of all classes who people find overpower for one reason or another.

AAs too, they get too way more AB then they need.

And Dwarven defenders, too much meaty HP on those.

Don't forget of Pale masters, they sure as hell overuse all that extra AC.

And what of... ahhh. Just nerf 'em all while you're at it.

Nah. Let's stick to nerfing the stuff that needs to be nerfed.

Awesome.

*claps* Hurrah for you. Hope you feel good about youself then

.

Doesn't change the fact that it could be made much harder for clerics to solo.

Odd change here, odd adjustment there...touch of fairy dust and **poof**! Not so easy coasting to 30 for everyone but you.

Let's not strawman this.

HiPS is broken. Yes, no question about it. It's been known to every player of NWN for years.

This has nothing to do with people's desire to nerf everything. It is an actual problem that has existed for years, and we have been unable to fix it so far. If it is now possible with HAKs, it should obviously be done. Because it's a fix to something that's broken.

Apparently nobody's found a good way to do it, though. I'm not sure if it's possible. I hope so.

Mr Mago wrote:

Riddle wrote:

But that AC requires you to be a specific mix of classes and we know 90% of SDs dont have it.

So to even out the melee vs SD lets be fair and throw in the certain melee build that can easyly hit that ac, and on top of it knock the SD down without him being able to resist it, and on 'top' of 'that' owning the SD with a 44-45 DC dev crit that it gets easyly while the SD is on the floor with his low low fortitude that in most cases reaches only mid 30s even with heavy fort gear on.

The SD can resist KD as good as any build. You just need to invest in discipline for it. Two items = +18 discipline.

44-45 DC Dev Crit?

A reasonable top tier Dev Crit DC is 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (curse song) or... 39 + 2 (BG aura) + 2 (battletide) + 1 (prayer)... 43 and 44 "effective" Dev Crit DC. The latter requires an omgwtfz powerbuild that only me and one other player on Amia knows of atm.

Sure any class can get enough discipline. Any class can fill every slot of their gear with discipline. But give me an example of a SD on Amia who has his DEX, hide ms, saves, and 70-80 discipline on his gear? Not every class can pull it off effectivelly without ruining their gearset.

43-44 Dev DC isnt OMFG build. Its easy. I even know a way to get up to 50 Dev DC 'effectivelly' on Amia. Yeah I know, crazy right? Requires something crazy, radical, and most likely never done here though. Very dirty =]

TormakSaber wrote:

And no AB and low HP and the reflex and will saves of jack, and easily dispelled.

The highest DEV DC build isnt even a half orc. Has great saves, and omfg AB, unmatched by most.

There's a reason we don't count "effective" DC, AB, AC, Saves etc.

Quote:

But give me an example of a SD on Amia who has his DEX, hide ms, saves, and 70-80 discipline on his gear?

That one is easy, if you only push for dex and not dex + cha.

I'll raise my hand and say Me to that one mago.

IronAngel wrote:

In PvP, it is practically impossible for a meleer to hit an SD who spams HiPS; there simply isn't time to target unless you have some magic fingers

And if your SD has enough shiny buffs on, those few seconds will be spent lagging while the SD shows himself, and can also crash people on older computers if they spam it >.>

IronAngel wrote:

In PvP, it is practically impossible for a meleer to hit an SD who spams HiPS; there simply isn't time to target unless you have some magic fingers

My feelings exactly. Fixing HiPS isn't coming from anyone wanting to "nerf" SD. As I see it, there is no justification to leave HiPS without a cooldown that has anything to do with with SD's power.

Plain and simple: If you've used HiPS-spam*, you've been using an otherwise fine feat in a broken way. It is not intended to be spammed. We're going to fix it. Get over it.

*Repeatedly attacking and HiPSing before mechanically possible for the target PC or AI to retaliate in any way.

Hey, if your going to be looking at messing with hips how about at the same time do Bignies as well, how about make Bigbies have a reflex save? Dounds good to me in fixing the Bigbies over powerful uses.

Godo wrote:

Hey, if your going to be looking at messing with hips how about at the same time do Bignies as well, how about make Bigbies have a reflex save? Dounds good to me in fixing the Bigbies over powerful uses.

Bigbies is already on the list of things to fix.

Yurell wrote:

Bigbies is already on the list of things to nerf.

/fixed.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Bigbies is already on the list of things to nerf.

/fixed.

Regards,

If fixing requires nerfing, then so be it.

Yurell wrote:

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Bigbies is already on the list of things to nerf.

/fixed.

Regards,

If fixing requires nerfing, then so be it.

Those two terms do not mutually co-exist.

Regards,

They do not, but in this case, Bigby is a dead horse and several dozen people are slapping it with a nerf stick. IT is being nerfed, and that is the fix.

I will not be held responsible for the creation of this thread! I didn't create it! I didn't make "yet another HIPS thread".

But since we are on the topic. Correcting Hips will allow its application in other classes, as well as stop a lot of complaining. Note I don't see this as fixing, or nerfing or anything. It s correcting. I'm unsure why bioware felt the need to not apply HIPS correctly, or give it to the other two classes it belongs to in the game. But they didn't, and as such it falls to the community to correct their mistake.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I'm unsure why bioware felt the need to not apply HIPS correctly

What do you mean 'not apply correctly'?

It's applied perfectly correctly, however, that's the issue, since NWN is realtime, not turnbased.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I will not be held responsible for the creation of this thread! I didn't create it! I didn't make "yet another HIPS thread".

But since we are on the topic. Correcting Hips will allow its application in other classes, as well as stop a lot of complaining. Note I don't see this as fixing, or nerfing or anything. It s correcting. I'm unsure why bioware felt the need to not apply HIPS correctly, or give it to the other two classes it belongs to in the game. But they didn't, and as such it falls to the community to correct their mistake.

No class is getting HiPS but SD. Its been discussed and the horrible fact is no one will ever ever take the SD class again. With its no UMD awful skills and all that. Ranger Assassins will replace them.

Well I have to say, that is very very disappointing, espically since it's one of the core skills of Assassin. Kinda have the say it feels like Assassins taking that blow instead of SD then, given the state of the Assassin class.

And thats what I meant Tormak. It's not applied correctly. It's a fundemental problem with game developers translating Turn Based RP's to Realtime RPG's. Some of the abilities don't translate well, and in HIPS case, it wasn't done correctly. It needs to be corrected for NWN.

My point was the same as Tormak's - it was applied correctly, just unfortunate that correctly is bad.

I think it was just misunderstood the way I meant it. I don't consider the ability to be applied correctly if it wasn't applied to work well in the game it is present in. In this case NWN. Bioware didn't apply HIPS correcly in NWN, it's not applied correctly for the game.

I thin we just differ in opinions as to what 'correctly' means ... I believe it means 'as per PnP' whereas you seem to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it means 'in a balanced manner for this game'.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Well I have to say, that is very very disappointing, espically since it's one of the core skills of Assassin. Kinda have the say it feels like Assassins taking that blow instead of SD then, given the state of the Assassin class.

And thats what I meant Tormak. It's not applied correctly. It's a fundemental problem with game developers translating Turn Based RP's to Realtime RPG's. Some of the abilities don't translate well, and in HIPS case, it wasn't done correctly. It needs to be corrected for NWN.

I've played Neverwinter Nights 2, where rangers and assassins get HIPS. the reality of the situation becomes: No one takes Shadowdancer anymore. The class becomes irrelevant, its namesake ability given to other classes. Everyone already knows how "bad" the class is, aside from the rogue bonus feats and HIPS. Too much more and the class becomes.. .well, you may as well remove it.

HiPS stuff

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